Desicritics Comments on CIA and the Indo-US Nuclear Deal

Comment by Chandra

Wed, 5 Sep 2007 00:41:09 EDT

Mohanty Bhaina Frankly speaking, I dont know either if there is an influence. I was reading these Left-Chinese stories and decided to do a piece on our friends in Langley. In any case if either of us knew who the moles were we would either be very rich or dead or both :-)..... I agree with you about FAS data but my info on operational status was on the basis of multiple articles....again, it makes no sense to have weapons but not loaded .....However, the operational status of weapons may indeed be a big question mark considering the nuclear command and control structure (a separate debate is needed there). Please do visit again as we have many such debates here on DC and Odissa is severely under represented here :-)... cheers rgds

Comment by Mohanty

Wed, 5 Sep 2007 00:03:25 EDT

Chandra Bhaina, First of all I am not upset about anything. :) Rather, I am enjoying the debate although I'll end here. The FAS methodology requires very sparse data. They make extensive use of computer models and Monte Carlo simulations. The references that FAS cites for its data are diverse. Many of them are papers that are presented by Indian nuclear scientists at international journals and conferences. In my opinion, there is very little HUMINT involved. (Opinions will differ of course). I understand that it is - as you say - at least theoretically possible for the CIA to influence our media. However, I am of the opinion that it is highly improbable that there has been any CIA hand in the current debate.

Comment by Chandra

Tue, 4 Sep 2007 00:33:01 EDT

Mohanty Bhaiyna This article is not about the Left parties or the Congress, this is about the CIA. This article is not about the CIA's ability to always manage opinion successfully, this is about their systems and past expertise in using intelligence assets and succcess that they have. This article does not suggest that every journalist/scientist/politician has sold out to the US. But it does suggest that some have and Rabinder Singh is a good example of that. Other examples have also been provided. India is not Iraq. It is a free country and a 'poor' one to boot. Corruption is endemic. So bribing many people to obtain information is not a difficult to task. I had to bribe army and airforce officials in my rookie year at work more than 10 years ago and one can only imagine what happens now. The data from FAS web-site is not from FAS. (You should probably read it again). Part of what is quoted in FAS is also available from Indian websites (Indian nuclear operational status). The second is a US DOD report. Please read the Clinton case study again. Clinton confronted Nawaz shariff with a host of intelligence data including- Satellite photographs, NSA data and human intelligence. Diplomacy is the outcome of various intelligence efforts. I can understand that you are upset about knowing that some people may be on the pay but I am sorry that is the reality of our nation. regards

Comment by Mohanty

Tue, 4 Sep 2007 00:01:18 EDT

Chandra "Bhayna": I am afraid the doggone balderdash label will have to keep sticking to your conspiracy theory. American HUMINT (Human Intelligence) is currently adept at gathering information, not manipulating the free press of another country (pleeeease spare me lectures on Mossadegh, Lumumba, Allende, or even Namboodiripad). Everybody knows that Clinton played a role in having Pakistan withdraw its aggressive posture during the Kargil war. However, it was an act of diplomacy, not espionage. Every once in a while you stumble across the (now outdated) FAS site to get data on India's or some other countries nuclear arsenal. We all know how the US media got obsessive about their intelligence failure to predict the Pokhran blasts. But that was their own failure in acquiring information. We also know how incompetent the US intelligence can be. Remember the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction? But that is NOT the point. FACT: The Indian communist lot are a bunch of harebrained jokers. You do not need a rocket scientist to figure that one out. The 13 communists in the IACC opposed the Quit India movement in 1942. In 1962 when China attacked India, they declared that "a socialist nation cannot commit aggression". In 1964 they failed to denounce China's nuclear test, but in 1998 they didn't fail to condemn the Pokhran blasts as "dangerous". Five years ago, they were celebrating the "liberation" of Tibet (presumably, I reckon, from his holiness, the Dalai Lama). FACT: The Indo-US deal is better than the Sino-US deal. It is a deal after all, not an act of charity. India got reprocessing rights (albeit with conditions attached), which China didn't. India is still free to test more nukes without violating any law. India badly needs uranium, and the deal will help it to import ample uranium. The Indo-US nuclear deal is very good for India. FACT: Acts of the US Congress read a lot like their declaration of independence, and are usually in lofty, often deceptive, language. Take a look at some other acts passed by the US Congress, such as the "Taiwan Security Enhancement Act", the "US-Taiwan Anti-Ballistic Missile Defense Cooperation Act", or the "Russian Democracy Act". The Hyde Act is no different! FACT: The series of articles published by the various Indian newspapers were reporting simple facts. The DAE secretary, Kakodkar and even President Abdul Kalam have praised the deal. (Are they CIA moles?) So have various sections of the Indian military as well as nuclear establishments. FACT: The CIA may be very good at gathering data about nuclear explosions or even toppling governments of small nations. But I am sure the Americans have no means to exert control over such a large, feisty, and often unpredictable, press such as ours. In the large democracy that India is, with a 100% free press where everyone can voice his/her opinion, the CIA has no mechanism to disseminate propaganda of its choice. And even if it did, it wouldn't be necessary, consideing the facts behind the Indo-US deal. BOTTOMLINE: The CIA simply has neither the means nor the need to manipulate our large, free press, to disseminate propaganda. You don't need a "foreign hand" to expose the likes of retards like Yechury, Karat, and Basu or to highlight the merits of the Indo-US nuclear deal. Just good old journalism will do!

Comment by Chandra

Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:47:26 EDT

from the Hindu http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2113/stories/20040702004403200.htm http://www.hindu.com/2004/08/03/stories/2004080306280100.htm B Raman (Ex-RAW) That is why national security lapses keep overtaking us at regular intervals and we keep drifting from one disaster to another. B. Raman http://www.outlookindia.com/ "I have referred to a number of past instances of penetration of our intelligence agencies and other Government Departments by foreign intelligence agencies in order to highlight the continuing weaknesses in our counter-penetration and counter-intelligence capabilities and to underline the need for removing them. This is not the first time I am writing on it. I wrote the first article on this subject for "The Hindu" in 1996, after the detection of the penetration of the IB by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) at a high level. Since then, I must have written at least 20 articles on this subject" "The whole world was shocked by the ease with which two French intelligence officers, assisted by their Polish counterparts, had penetrated the PMO and removed tonnes and tonnes of documents. It was alleged that they were so sure that nothing would happen to them that they used to go to the office of the PMO on Sundays and other holidays, go through all the files and papers, take out what was of interest to them and took out photocopies using the photocopying machine of the PMO using the photocopying paper of the PMO. It was a scandal of unbelievable proportions." FROM A BOOK ON THE CIA "both the CIA and NSA probably also reported, later in the 1980s on India's covert acquisition of heavy water from foreign sources, including Norway. The CIA detected an illegal shipment of beryllium from West Germany to India late in the decade"

Comment by bd

Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:05:53 EDT

I can vouch for the journalists piece personally. Specially one gentleman who is now the darling of the left and heavily anti-nuclear to boot (also has written a book). If you look at his career, he was very very right wing, capitalist and pro american, and "overnight" (because of lets say remuneration differences) became a leftist! traitors galore! Also from the armed forces side, dont forget the innumerable cases. If you want to find out, google for court martial and india :)

Comment by temporal

Mon, 3 Sep 2007 05:52:47 EDT

chandra: It usually takes us 4 hours to deduce who is involved after an event. you are exaggerating bro;) spot on for budgetary restraints!... couple that with langley policy decisions to rely on sat-intel more without collaboration from human-intel (seymour hirsh if i recall correctly) the spies are playing a catch up game...and not very effectively either...(9/11!) their hey days are in the foggy past... cuban missile crisis that led to moratorium (NOT embargo...interesting word usage -- the latter would have been an act of war) was perhaps their finest hour...downhill since then:)

Comment by Chandra

Sun, 2 Sep 2007 17:52:31 EDT

Mohanty Bhaiyna Information provided is no secret. a. Raj file documents are easily searchable on the Internet b. Senata subcommittee data on Intelligence failure (shaki tests) is available on FAS http://fas.org/irp/news/1998/05/may16_cia.html c. Clinton's confrontation with nawaz Shariff is well documented. US involvement in preventing a nuclear conflict (1999 and 2001) is well known d. Data on India's nuclear operational status is from the US department of defense http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/prolif00.pdf e. Reading the Hyde act will give you information on reporting requirements (includes unsafeguarded fuel)...... Every bit of information is available from public and reliable sources... Incidentally, the nuclear program saw massive cuts between 1991 and 1993. Guess who was the finance minister then? - Dr. Manmohan Singh :-)

Comment by Mohanty

Sun, 2 Sep 2007 17:40:14 EDT

Basically this is what the article says: A) The CIA monitors India's nuclear program. B) There is the ubiquitous "foreign hand". ergo: C) The CIA must have a hand in the current 123 debate in India! Applying the same logic, one would arrive at hilarious conclusion that the Al Qaeda is behind the current debate too (working against it!). In short, this article is absolute nonsense. Chandra has supplied no shred of evidence to back up his wild allegations. Here are Sitaram Yechury and Prakash Karat dining (in a very bourgeoisie setting may I add) with their bosses in Beijing: http://english.cpc.people.com.cn/mediafile/200611/23/F2006112308130100335.jpg Perhaps the picture was also doctored by the CIA!

Comment by Ledzius

Sun, 2 Sep 2007 02:32:17 EDT

I think they should be concentrating ten times more on Pak's nuclear program, if they have their priorities straight.