Desicritics Comments on Naina and the Dancing Hijabis

Comment by Jawahara

Thu, 30 Aug 2007 09:06:06 EDT

Thanks Anamika :-)

Comment by Anamika

Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:52:41 EDT

Jawahara, hilarious article (am both a dog owner/lover and find myself on the conservative side of the full niqab debate) so completely identified. Interesting discussion too. The discussion reminded me of the line from Mughal-e-Azam: "jab parda nahin koi khuda se to bandon se parda karna kya..." If we are made in "god's image" (as per the semitic textual logic) then why the need for Muslim women to cover themselves? Oh for the poster who thought burqa gives women respect, good that your forced experiment gave you such a rosy view of it. Try a DTC bus in Delhi where burqawalis are targetted for "eveteasing" because the assumption is that they will not fight back. Or try wearing a burqa and walking down a street in Jeddah - good chance that you will be abducted and "disappeared" by sex starved "good Muslim men" (scary statistics and reports on this particularly "Islamic" phenomenon. Ed Hussain touches upon this one too in his book).

Comment by Jawahara

Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:58:06 EDT

I was joking (a+b)...apparently not very well. No offence taken. Peace

Comment by (a+b)^2=a^2+b^2+2ab

Mon, 20 Aug 2007 15:00:26 EDT

I am sorry never meant to offend you

Comment by Jawahara

Mon, 20 Aug 2007 11:28:48 EDT

Saida aapa? Damn! I've only known one Said aapa in my life and she was really old and hunchbacked and had paan-stained teeth. Yikes. But I guess...ummmm...thanks!

Comment by (a+b)^2=a^2+b^2+2ab

Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:41:44 EDT

It was a good discussion over all Kudos!!!! to Saida aapa for writing this article

Comment by Jawahara

Mon, 20 Aug 2007 03:26:26 EDT

Oh my gosh, this thing really took on a life of its own. (a+b) Angry? I really wouldn't waste my anger on here. Being emphatic about something is not being angry. Do make a note of it. Aditi, you must miss Aibo so much.Poor Naina also cannot understand anyone not loving her. And actually, in California, our cleaning lady and her ten-year old daughter got over their fear so much that they would bring treats and pet her incessantly. And my niece who is now almost grown up was bitten by a German Shepherd when she was a child and was always afraid of dogs, but not Naina. She snuggles up with her, pets her, takes her for walks. Regardless, until I know someone is not afraid of her I don't ever let her go near them. And, of course, yes, men and women were designed to be attracted to each other. Which is what makes hijab an unnatural custom. And, if that were true, there would be no molestation of rape of properly covered up women and that is defnitely not the case, right? Jay, hear, hear! So,FF (in case you do decide to read this) the bottomline is why should someone else be responsible for keeping your objections in mind while dressing? And, if we accept that in principle then shouldn't the hijabi ninjas walking around Lake Geneva keep the feelings and customs of their host countries in mind while they are here? Should they not be sensitive and drop their hijabs...and really take advantage of the clean Swiss mountain air? It goes both ways for me.

Comment by FF

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:49:04 EDT

As a final countdown... 2. I have no big issues with my company or its employees. My only issue is with the very principle around which this thread rotates. In fact objection from men was my secondary issue, the primary one being innocent men pay heavy price.For that one may have to read #46 starting at Lastly, tell them we have no problem "WHATSOEVER" whether woman wear burka or not... 1. I do not want women to dress as per what I or other men decide. All I want is that they should try to dress taking objections from men in consideration. I have no issues even if women among themselves decide the permissible limit they need follow in public, provided they are sensitive to objections from men. 0. Ab Bahut ho liya. Am feeling sleep. Will switch to some other thread. I have nothing more to say.

Comment by Jay

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:33:38 EDT

#68 FF So lemme see, you are protesting what exactly on DC?? That women in your workplace are allowed to wear low cut shirts etc? Your boss reads DC that much??!! Does he also know that you, his employee, are on here, disgruntled by the dress code? How is typing in BS on a thread that protests hijabs going to cause any reform in the dress code at your MNC???/ Are you ok FF? You want women to start dressing in a code you assign them so that you don't get distracted????!!! What is wrong with you? We all have dreams you know. Somewhere in Afghanistan your dream is being realized. Go there and you will be able to work in peace. Men like you have given Indian men a bad name because of your control freak attitudes and overtly conservative expectations of society. You want women to do all the dirty work, take the blame, be responsible while you can do whatever it is you like. This whole "women are shrewd and clever" applies to your mom n sisters too btw?

Comment by FF

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:14:29 EDT

If YOUR boss fires you and you say "I was distracted because Ms.X was flashing me", you will make a laughing stock out of yourself. If it was so, I will do that much before I get fired. Make no sense after getting fired. Is not that a Common sense? In fact that is exactly what I am doing here. I have raised my objections to the very principle which may clone many JUGS around me tomorrow. I think in my company we already have handful of them, but we always joke around them as we hardly(once on 3 months) get to interact with them. Moreover no body dares to question them because everybody is so afraid of the (ill)famous women empowerment brigade. BTW, Company is just one of the shared places, there could be many more public places.

Comment by temporal

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:50:28 EDT

FF: #60? 498a?

Comment by Jay

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:50:05 EDT

#65: FF: Bottomline: If you cannot control YOUR urges, you have only YOURSELF to blame. If YOU lose YOUR job because a pair of jugs distracted you, YOU are the loser. Heads Up: If YOUR boss fires you and you say "I was distracted because Ms.X was flashing me", you will make a laughing stock out of yourself. If in order to control your own urges you need a woman to cover herself up then you my dear man are extremely irresponsible. You would rather place the blame on societal issues for your own failures. And this whole crap of "unsubstantiated claims" is BS. All my claims have been demonstrated by your OWN comments, line of thinking and logic, not just on THIS thread but in other threads as well. If you ask the MNC you work w/ to provide a list of company by-laws or a booklet that HR deptmt provides to new employees, you will see a list of inappropriate conducts and attire. Its called "Issues & Policies" You may not be aware of this but you should be (especially if that cleavage is bothering you so much!) If you are not working for a big company and you still find somebody's attire completely objectionable: file a complaint, put a suggestion in the suggestion box, have a conversation with you superiors and explain the issue to them. Don't claim that their cleavage cost you your job. Thats stupid. "Women are very shrewd and clever" Ah, yes, just like Siffers are extremely dumb and cowardly. So much for "unsubstatiated claims"!!! :)

Comment by FF

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:36:06 EDT

You guys fight radical feminists who claim that men are the root of evil BUT you guys do the exact SAME!!! You claim women are responsible for all evils. Unsubstantiated claim. If there is a woman in a miniskirt in front of you and its making you not focus on your job: look away man! You can do it. All it takes is a few muscles in your neck. After all its YOUR job. So take some responsibility. Well not everybody is as lucky and independent as you. Many may need to talk and work closely with their colleagues. I am a man and I work around several women who look attractive and wear dresses that even if arent't revealing, do accentuate their figures. I am a guy too BUT I have never claimed THAT as a reason for my inability to focus on my job. That should be my responsibility. It is my job!!! Well the kinsely report that temporal supplied did say that their could be 10% exceptions. Checkout who those 10% are? You guys belong to the whole group of cads who cheat on their wives and claim "Well, she flashed her boobs in my face...what was I to do??? I was helpless!!" NICE TRY!! Unsubstantiated claim. Do you know me personally? Most work places have a dress code, designated propriety of dress and wear in the workplace. Very little chances that you will see a woman in a bikini or a micromini in an office or a firm....unless you work at a sleazy massage parlor. You missed out on big "IF" in my statement.I shall repeat if I see bare-back and semi-clad women displaying their cleavages and buttocks(in those skin tight low waist jeans) all around me. I was arguing against the fundamental principle that men should be ignored totally when it comes to what women need to wear in public. If the same principle was applied in practice by all and sundry, the "IF" may have do be done away with. It is nice that we(men and women) still preserve the culture, where we tend to dress decently(by my standard) in offices and many other public places. My argument was "NOT" against women(of past or present) but rather against the very principle. BTW, FYI, My company does not have any dress code. I guess many MNCs do not have one. and the rest ... The problem is not that society does not know where to draw the line, but the fact that you will always find some who will want to break that line. And from my experience, I have seen that if women do not want to look sexually appealing/revealing they know how to avoid being one. Women are very shrewd and clever.

Comment by Jay

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:02:42 EDT

#61: FF " I do not think I would be affected/offended if I see women faces around me...I would however be offended and over a period of time my life, my social and moral life, and my job will suffer (and I suppose the same is true for many other men), if I see bare-back and semi-clad women displaying their cleavages and buttocks(in those skin tight low waist jeans) all around me. No matter, how much one conditions himself, it will affect men and their lives." You guys fight radical feminists who claim that men are the root of evil BUT you guys do the exact SAME!!! You claim women are responsible for all evils. If there is a woman in a miniskirt in front of you and its making you not focus on your job: look away man! You can do it. All it takes is a few muscles in your neck. After all its YOUR job. So take some responsibility. I am a man and I work around several women who look attractive and wear dresses that even if arent't revealing, do accentuate their figures. I am a guy too BUT I have never claimed THAT as a reason for my inability to focus on my job. That should be my responsibility. It is my job!!! You guys belong to the whole group of cads who cheat on their wives and claim "Well, she flashed her boobs in my face...what was I to do??? I was helpless!!" NICE TRY!! Most work places have a dress code, designated propriety of dress and wear in the workplace. Very little chances that you will see a woman in a bikini or a micromini in an office or a firm....unless you work at a sleazy massage parlor. The problem isn't that you don't want a cleavage in your face. The issue is where does one draw the line????While cleavages seem to distract you, ....Maybe Mr.X is into well-shaped feet, so should a woman then wear big boots that cover her feet so Mr.X doesn't lose his job? .....Mr.Y may have a certain fetish for long nails. So should women wear gloves to prevent his being distracted? .....Mr.Z may feel aroused by luscious lips. So what does one do? Scotch tape across the mouth???? Where and how does a society draw the line? There already are several laws against obscene exposure. ***FF your thinking like most Siffers is very sexist. You feel that women should be clad in a saree, full sleeve blouse and a sweater/ cardigan so YOU can focus on YOUR job. ***You were raised to believe that women are supposed to be chaste and hence inspire purity of thought in men. Welcome to the 21st century where men have to take care of their own responsibilities and not expect women to pick up and do damage control for their every weakness. Be a decent man, if possible, stop drooling and look away. That should work too. And if you cannot do that there IS someone you can blame: GUESS WHO??? YOURSELF!

Comment by FF

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:41:17 EDT

Thanks for report...

Comment by temporal

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:29:29 EDT

FF: thnks:) you may begin with kinsey report and then go down the list;) ...because in absence of any study on men and their behavior... caveat: going down is not suggestive!

Comment by FF

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:00:08 EDT

(a+b) I do not think I would be affected/offended if I see women faces around me...I would however be offended and over a period of time my life, my social and moral life, and my job will suffer (and I suppose the same is true for many other men), if I see bare-back and semi-clad women displaying their cleavages and buttocks(in those skin tight low waist jeans) all around me. No matter, how much one conditions himself, it will affect men and their lives. The fact that many women do not realize this is, because in absence of any study on men and their behavior(because they are considered disposable), women assume that men should act and behave in the same manner as do women. My assumption is that it is here that they go woefully wrong. Males (and hence I am not restricting them to human beings) are so genetically different beings than females. Much More, when it comes to basic instincts e.g being exposed to opposite sex. For e.g males are much more violent against other males than against females. The mask of living in a culture and civilized society (and clothes are very much part of culture) may have socially conditioned many of us to ignore tiny details like mere presence of opposite sex, but the genetically hardwired instincts, which render males to get sexually manipulated when confronted with ever increasing exposure of bare body by opposite sex, can not be ignored ad-infinitum. I do not think there is a social angle to this difference in behavior. Rather society has been modeled thus far to accommodate this behavioral difference in males and females. There is an urgent need to perform a rather deep and broad study on behavior and thought process of men if we want to model solutions for some of the problems women face. I do see that, having to wear Burka may be a genuine issue to many women, but we need to find solutions to this problem which is acceptable to both genders perhaps with some compromises on either side. But the solution can be arrived only if we prepare ourselves to study men with open mind.

Comment by temporal

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:23:43 EDT

FF: who is responsible for THIS? hint: check the manual before replying :)

Comment by (a+b)^2=a^2+b^2+2ab

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:19:39 EDT

#Jawahara: Wow~! someone is getting angry!!! I dont have any objection whether u practice hijab or dont, its none of my business. #50,"As far as hijab goes, they are free to wear it and make their statement. And I am free to criticize them and make my statement. " . Similarly I have the right to criticize ("desicritics") whatever written on this blog is wrong or objectionable from my point of view. #16,"Now we can say they are brainwashed by religion and men". You are trying to generalize the entire woman folk who practice hijab to be brainwashed on some baseless assumptions and then you claim yourself to be liberal. #47 Jawahara: "If wearing a burqah is getting you respect, you do realise they are not respecting you...but the burqah is." Of course they are respecting the burqah and respecting you to have the courage to wear burqah #Chandra: I have same feelings regarding dogs as you have. #FF: Are you a MBA with Marketing as a major? Thanks for the tip, I am fairly new to this blog and I dont have any idea what it means to be liberal. So far from the above discussion I find no difference between those illiterate mullahs and people who claim to be liberal. Both of them take extreme stance without any proper logical reasoning

Comment by FF

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:56:22 EDT

Correction: I will draw my claim that many women cases are false...The fact is I do not know as I was just extending my perception arising from huge number of false dowry cases to other women cases...Apologies.

Comment by FF

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:50:58 EDT

Taxes are usually calculated based on your income and on how much you owe back to the society. Yes any tax paying citizen would be interested in how much he gets taxed. An even more aware tax paying citizen will be even more interested in knowing where the taxed money is spent. I have every right to be concerned on how much and where the taxed money is spent. Secondly it is more than just the direct taxes... Only yesterday, There was a brutal road rage case in Delhi in which two guys beat up a doctor black and blue in public and a day after you see them out enjoying on bail where as the while family including elders and children are sent behind bars for weeks and months at a mere allegation(without any proofs whatsoever) of a women. Those who beat the doctor got of so easily, because our judiciary and police are so heavily loaded with possible false women cases that they do not get time to investigate other genuine cases and criminals practically go Scott-free. A recent report submitted in ministry of law stated that women cases (which very likely are false cases) constitute 40% of total cases with judiciary and police. Where do you expect a common man to get justice if he gets the next date of hearing in next one year in place of next quarter. We need more judiciary and more police force(at least twice the current size)to be able to deal with all cases with reasonable satisfaction(if not with perfection). Lastly calculate the cost of lives of those innocent men and families who had to burn off their precious Golden years going around courts. I have not calculated the total cost (all inclusive) of women empowerment but I guess it surely will be as significant percentage of our GDP.

Comment by temporal

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:40:49 EDT

FF: how would you complete this? FF is just naturally clever/devious: he didn't have to work hard at being clever/devious? thanks:)

Comment by FF

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:30:58 EDT

I never ever claimed in my post above that I justify any kind of assaults(be it teasing or any other serious offense). A re-read will perhaps help grasp that I am asking for protect to men from getting abused. So if one finds it(protection to men) hilarious then (s)he is clearly not being women well wisher but rather somebody who wants to laugh at and dismiss miseries of men...Unless of course if (s)he believes that discussing miseries of men is akin to being anti-women.

Comment by Aditi Nadkarni

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:28:02 EDT

#53: "The question here is how not to develop those feelings. The hijab/lowering of gaze is one of the methodologies" What?!! Why should a person not develop those feelinsg?!! Opposite sexes view each other with sexual interest and that is normal, right? It is not the feelings that need to be curbed but the acting on those feelings that needs to be controlled. You seem to have gotten your priorities wrong. You think that a guy will not have sexual thoughts about a woman when she is in a hijab. Ha! I don't think so. In fact they'll probably spend some time wondering how she looks under that hijab. Its a normal instinct. Like you said bees to dogs all have that instinct. But as humans, as social animals we just don't "act" on each urge. That keep the society in harmony, not abolishing or denouncing the feelings themselves. See, if you think sex is dirty and should not be a part of our pysches, we will not be able to agree. I don't view human sexuality with such a tainted perspective. I think of it as beautiful and ideal only if mutual. I have no problems with a guy checking me out as long as he doesn't feel me up or sexually assault me. I have no problems with what's going on in a guy's mind when I wear a skirt. This whole hijaab approach puts the social onus of maintaining civility of actions and purity of thought on women. And that is sexist. Men need to take the responsibility of NOT acting on these urges like a stray dog would. Also, (a+b), if I see a good looking guy, I check him out too but I wouldn't sit here and claim that he needs to wear a sack so that I don't run and hump him. I don't need that coz...I have self-control :) ***** People who think that wearing a hijab can curb sexual feelings or thoughts are kidding themselves. *****

Comment by (a+b)^2=a^2+b^2+2ab

Sun, 19 Aug 2007 13:11:02 EDT

#Aditi Female body attracts male and thats a fact, a natural phenomena. From the honey bees to the favorite dogs of the author to the human beings. The whole concept of hijab/lowering of gaze I feel in Islam is to make sure that the female body is not looked upon as the object of lust or whatever terms you have used in your response. In my discussion I have not gone to the extreme cases of rape or sexual assault. Majority of the men restrict the sexual feelings developed to themselves. Rape and.... are the extreme consequences of those men who are unable to restrict them. The question here is how not to develop those feelings. The hijab/lowering of gaze is one of the methodologies. Women aura has taken over you so much that even If I agree with something , you just feel offended. Again you are using terms like obsolete to redirect this discussion to somewhere else or you dont have any proper answer