Naina and the Dancing Hijabis

Great piece, says much of what I feel abt the hijaab thing. I just can't understand why one would choose to wear it, I do respect the right to do so but I don't get it.

Btw, the blindfolds thing will simply force men to have dogs, so we're back to square one:)

loved the article, and as a dog lover, completely sympathise with you.

I wrote something like this and touches this peripherally! :)

http://piquancy.blogspot.com/2005/06/every-dog-has-its-day.html

jay:

may i suggest a mandatory surgeon general type label on each burqa?

Hermeneutic Warning: Wearing this will not make any difference. You may even smell worse due to lack of circulation.

PH, good point. I am sure they would prefer to be good dog-fearing Muslims and stumble around instead. Maybe it can be a spectator sport for us.

bd, I'll check out your article. Sounds interesting.

T, will you please start a movement to institute this warning?

Great article...you have potential to become a writer too.

I loved your innovative solution. :-)

hist - don't give her ideas.. then she might end up having to duck projectiles a la Taslima..

hist and led:

she is a published author and has been writing for a number of years and am sure enjoyed your tongue in cheek comments

;)

hopefully no projectiles in her past or future, other than doggy poop:)

Correct me if I am wrong basically burqa/hijab was introduced with the intention of protecting women from strange men with arduous intentions.

Seen in the social context right on Jawahara, in present times most men aren't horny beasts and we women aren't products to be hidden away.

And more power that little angel of yours. I wish she wasn't on a leash ;)

Thanks hist, GG and Led...and t, thanks for the endorsement ;-)

Deepti, I don't know that much about Islamic history but I believe the hijab as it is now evolved over a period of time. (T, feel free to jump in here).

That is, there wasn't much purdah if at all in pre-Islamic Arabia. And then, even with the advent of Islam, I think these restrictions on women's dress evolved through the years and in stages. Early Islamic female converts continued to dress like they always had. It was only later as Islam became more solidified that these restrictions arose.

I doubt that the attentions of men had much to do with it. It really seems symptomatic of a power imbalance. And it smacks too much of blaming the victim in case there *is* unwanted attention.

People--men and women--need to be responsible for themselves and to behave like civilized humans. Also, I believe that hijab and seggregation probably lead to more hidden abuse and victimization than we know. We just don't know about it because it is so hidden.

And Naina is no angel...she's a manipulative little devil but we love her anyway :-).

Aaman,re: doggie poop projectiles...Ewwwwwww.

Hijab or not - some people like dogs and some never will! There is nothing you can do about it.

Your dog is spoilt! Because of that simple fact documented here in no uncertain terms, I can foresee her becoming a source of many future problems, conflicts, neighborhood disputes, competition (especially during the season of the canine) and general nuisance to society at large.

Why go through all that aggravation?! It is not worth it - I assure you!

Luckily for you, you don't have to.

For a small fee, I will take her off your hands!

Just sign over your NEXT book's proceeds! :)

J - I didn't know that dogs were taboo! How sad for them :( The people, not the dogs, I mean :D The bhangra dancing burkha lady is hilarious!

As far as the right to wear hijab goes, I don't think anybody actively WANTS them to wear it, it's more like PH said: if you want to do that to yourself then go right ahead. Although then it does bring up other questions like the one you touched upon - seeing the expression rather than just two eyes peeking out.

Jawahara:

Excellent essay!

Your point about the ambiguities of liberalism is an important one. I often say that the only thing I hate more than religion is religious intolerance. Few people think deeply enough about these things to understand that I make this comment without the least trace of irony.

But your true winner is the observation that we shouldn't bag our women, we should blind our already blinkered men.

Good stuff!

MBJ

i don't want to talk about hijab, if woman want to wear them they can. It's nothing for me.

But your solution, blindfolds for men happens in reality, then i am sure, i will write and article like this to oppose that idea

BJ, I totally agree. Of course not everyone has to like dogs but when you are in a country where dogs are everywhere (and I mean everywhere, the Swiss love their dogs) then I believe you have the responsibility not to behave like a lunatic in public. Just avoid the dog and the owner.

And, you almost had me going in defence of my spoilt dog...but then I realized it was just a devious way to take her from me ;-). Good one!

Amrita, I too thought that no one really *wants* to wear this thing, especially that full ninja outfit. But then I met women who actively believe that they are superior and better if they are hijabis. Now we can say they are brainwashed by religion and men but at some point the responsibility of not letting that happen falls on you, right? Unless we say that women are automatic victims and rather stupid for falling for a con to keep them subjugated. Of course, I am sure there are some who are forced to wear it and hate it.

mbjesq, thanks.And I totally agree with your comments about religion and religious intolerance. Well said!

Ravi, so basically if, as a man, something affects you even indirectly (men wearing blindfolds) you would be stirred to write against it? Then, you can certainly understand why I wrote this, right?

All this talk of purdah and blindfolds reminds me of a certain poem written by a certain shayar from my hometown. Enjoy:

"Bepurdah nazar ayee jo kal chand biwiyan
Akbar zameen mein ghairat-e-qaumi se gad gayaa.
Poocha jo usney aapka purdah kidhar gaya?
Kehney lagi ki aql pe mardon ki pad gaya."

Akbar Allahabadi (1846-1921)

(Yesterday I came upon some unveiled ladies
Akbar was buried with shame for his community.
When I asked them where did your veils go?
They replied that the veils were now across the minds (wisdom) of men.)

All this talk of purdah and blindfolds reminds me of a certain poem written by a certain shayar from my hometown. (I might not have all the words right) Enjoy:

"Bepurdah nazar ayee jo kal chand biwiyan
Akbar zameen mein ghairat-e-qaumi se gad gayaa.
Poocha jo usney aapka purdah wo kya hua?
Kehney lagi ki aql pe mardon ki pad gaya."

Akbar Allahabadi (1846-1921)

(Yesterday I came upon some unveiled ladies
Akbar was buried with shame for his community.
When I asked them where did your veils go?
They replied that the veils were now across the minds (wisdom) of men.)

#16
"Then, you can certainly understand why I wrote this, right?"

yes, of course.

"Unless we say that women are automatic victims and rather stupid for falling for a con to keep them subjugated."

How true! How true! And not just in Islam but other religions too!

You know it is funny because I remember when I was a teen I said the exact thing. Why do I have to wear a cover on my hair? Why don't the men cover their eyes instead? Today, I even cover my face. Why? Thanks to GOD I realised that I do not cover for them but for my faith and, believe it or not, my self! I have liberated myself from being a blind victim of fashion and being a sex-object rather than being judged for who I am.

About the dog... I understand that your dog has become a part of your family. However, It seems that you care more about your dog than the rights of people who don't like to be around dogs. Personally, I am fed up of people telling me how friendly their dog is. I still don't want that dog anywhere near me. Some dog owners forget that not everyone shares their love for dogs.

Can you imagine someone walking around with a snake and them expecting you to not be discomforted. But the smake does not bite... it is not poisonous... and so on... I am holding it tight and it can not escape... all of these comments said to reassure others... What if you are still scared or disgusted or whatever other emotion you have? Should the feelings of others be denied or belittled? I think that we should have empathy for others and not just think from our own side.

I hope that this has opened your eyes just a bit.

umasiah:

I still don't want that dog anywhere near me. Some dog owners forget that not everyone shares their love for dogs.

did you skip over the part that mentioned the dog was leashed?

and

for pete's sake, it was not in a mosque or some home...the incident took place in a public park!

At the end of this one, I'm all mixed up. Was this a dog story or a hijab story? :)

Thanks t.

And people who do not want to be in the presence of leashed, well-behaved dogs in a country that values them and does not view them as unclean...should not go out in public where dogs have a right to be.

I don't expect everyone to love my dog. I do expect them not to behave like idiots in public, when the dog is nowhere near them. It's not like I was going up to them asking them to pet my dog or even acknowledge her.

If anything, I should be affronted at my personal space being invaded by someone shaking their finger in my face.

Umasiyah, as far as choosing to wear the veil, that is certainly your right and I would actually be very interested in hearing about your journey in making that choice. I cannot see how cloistering oneself away makes one free but it's an intriguing concept in a way.

I don't think I will agree or even understand it but I would still find it interesting. Perhaps you will write about this in a longer article.

Deepa....lol...maybe a hijabi dog story?

Believe it or not I just intended to write a cutesy piece about Naina's trip to the fair...but my writing does tend to take on a life of its own. And now it seems to be more about hijab and less about Naina.

Or perhaps it's really about religion and my being fed up with the whole thing. Hmmmm?

Hermeneutic General: we come naked and go shrouded: in between clothing is optional

;)

"Instead of women wearing hijabs, why don't men wear blindfolds? I'll even throw in the white canes for free"
Women are very lucky to have been assigned the physical task of practicing hijab, Men are asked to lower their gaze, curtail their animal instincts and not bring any impure thoughts. I feel men's task is far more difficult than just wearing a burqah or practicing hijab.
I would gladly blindfold myself provided the women follow the above guidelines for men.

(a+b)etc...if men were that great at lowering their gaze and curtailing their thoughts why would women need to wear the hijab?

Perhaps, just as an experiment, you can try walking around in a hijab in the heat and see if it is indeed easier.

Well, Naina is a girl dog... these things matter!

But J, you misunderstood or perhaps I wasn't very clear (the latter i think) - I wasnt saying that the hijabis don't want to wear hijab although I too suppose there must be women out there who don't want to but have to because they live in countries perhaps where that is the norm.

I was referring to the other point you raised viz. liberals supporting the decision of women to be hijabis. I don't think liberals want women to wear the hijab, just that if they want to then more power to them as long as they don't get all in my face and expect me to do the same. Sticky subject as you pointed out :)

Umasiyah - I dont know where you live but in certain places it's absolutely normal to see people with exotic pets like pythons slung around them. And people don't object to them walking about - not even me and I hate snakes. Loathe them. Point is, I havent bought up the sidewalk or the park.

Amrita, aah, yes, I did misunderstand. Okay, this is the root of my discomfort with this issue.

On the one hand I am liberal and I believe everyone has a right to their body and how they want to be and the right to make their own decisions. But with issues like hijab (or FGM as an extreme example) I don't believe (with very few exceptions) that people are making these decisions of their free will.

To me they are being forced/coerced/blacmailed/brainwashed into wearing the hijab or the ninja suit. So, are we really leaving them to make their decision? Or is someone else (or many someone elses) making it for them in a sense?

Then, of course, like I already said women have to bear the responsibility of their decisions and we have to believe that they do indeed know what they're doing.

So then yes, they should be free to wear the hijab and bear the consequences as long as they are not in my face about it.

I guess the gist is that I am really confused about this one.

With FGM, for instance, liberal thought that values cultural and religious practices, kept people from interfering as well. And that is a very harmful and injurious practice. Not in the same realm as hijab but where do I fall as a liberal in this debate? That's what I wonder.

No civilisation or culture can reform itself unless it stops judging its past.

If one is a liberal, then that is good.

If one is conservative then that is bad.

Why do not people think of exterminating all conservatives and unleash the era of freedom for the whole world?

Lets judge the whole world,
Lets judge the past,
Lets judge our ancestors,
Lets judge our very foundation.

Let us create a world, where everyone is a Liberal.

Lets us create the suprerior race of liberals in the whole world.

Lets us create a world and a civilisation, where everyone will have freedom and no responsibilities.

Because, it is the Liberals, who only know how to make the world a better place for all.

Jawahara,
Believe it or not, yesterday I was reminded of Akbar Ilahabaadi's qit'a too! (admittedly though, in Pankaj Udaas's nasal voice...don't ask, mom's a fan)

I meant wht I said that you very clearly expressed my own views-this is one of those areas where I disagree with those who do it (wear the veil) as well as those who wish to legislate against it.

Btw, I remember reading in Tariq Ali's Clash of Fundamentalisms that women in one Arab country (am awful with names, sorry:)used the veil so they could go to cafes with their dates unrecognized! Man, women are smarter:-)

#28:"if men were that great at lowering their gaze and curtailing their thoughts why would women need to wear the hijab?"

The point here is not how well men lower their gazes or how well women practice hijab. The point here is that although men are assigned a difficult task , theres not a single complain from the men's quarter and women make such a hue and cry.

#16"But then I met women who actively believe that they are superior and better if they are hijabis."

Just as certain section of muslim women feel that not practicing hijab is liberating them(making them liberals) and who assume that hijab is chosen by woman under some pressure or fear, its comes no surprise to me that there are some muslim woman (who practice hijab) feel superior.
The whole discussion of brainwashing is really outdated in that reply. Every body in this world is brainwashed in some or the other way

One last comment about dogs.
Being brought up in lanes and bylanes of old hyderabad, the only thing I know about dogs is that whenever u see them jut hit it with whatever u have (preferably a stone) or else the dog will bite you. Its very difficult for me to envisage a dog replacing a family member or as what you have written in this article.

The point here is not how well men lower their gazes or how well women practice hijab. The point here is that although men are assigned a difficult task , theres not a single complain from the men's quarter and women make such a hue and cry.

Well, if women can be assigned such "difficult" tasks of the mind that requires them to think of something else rather than make physical changes then women won't complain either. However hard you might find the process of thinking, I assure you the rest of us find it a lot easier.

J - I hear you about the FGM. Personally, I'd go for interference and I don't think such interference is contradictory given that the majority of FGM, far as I know, takes place in childhood when the kids have no say. If a grown woman wants to do it then that's another thing.

But then you begin wondering about the kind of environment she might have grown up in and whether that's a decision she made out of her own free will or due to conditioning, so how "valid" is that choice?

Apples and oranges (withered ones) but I've often had the same debate with myself over Sati. Personally I think it a barbaric custom and the outcome of conditioning rather than free will but... I've heard the "respect" argument applied there. And it makes me queasy.

Very few absolutes, I guess.

(a+b), etc. Lol....that's like saying that a rich man has a really difficult task to make sure that his mansion is secure and all his amazing riches are safe and the poor man has the easier task to making sure the rag he sleeps on is secure...but only the poor wretch complains. How ungrateful!

Lowering your gaze is as hard (harder even) as being swathed in some huge garment, wear gloves even in summer and have no air circulation around your face? Really???? You should try it for a day and then make the choice.

Amrita, I agree, of course. There are no absolutes.

#37 Jawahara
The example that you have quoted is totally materialistic again it shows how shallow your claims are.
Human being is a modified form of an animal, there are certain instincts which he/she finds very difficult to control (its like controlling your tears when someone you love dies, controlling your laughter when someone tickles you). Things even become worse for men when women start shedding their clothes, displaying their cleavages..., so I believe women in Islam are very lucky to have been assigned the task of hijab.

#35
Amrita
I have already mentioned in my above reply that I dont have any problem in blindfolding myself provided the women lower the gaze and control their heart/mind

a+b, since you believe women are 'lucky' for having been 'assigned' the task of wearing the hijab, why don't you try it for a day - full battle dress mode, YouTube video required for verification.

#38:

Why would you control your tears when somebody dies or your laughter when someone tickles you?!! No reason whatsoever. I know men who would bawl in grief or guffaw when tickled but won't mount a woman and hump her if she wasn't wearing a hijaab. Self-control has to come from the self, NOT from the source of temptation having to wear a hijab!

Those who can't muster that much civil "self-control" are akin to animals.

And we will lower our gaze....if you strip. For now we are just rolling our eyes.

I didn't realize that members of the Taliban had internet access.

Aditi LOL once he has the blindfold on, gals can just tell him you have lowered your gaze. He won't really have a way to know otherwise :D Hehe

#39
Aaman
I dont have the proof, but I had the opportunity of wearing a burqah with "naqab"(forced by my gf)) when I was in 12th standard. By god I received a lot of respect from the people on that day. Seeing a burqah clad women the autorickshaw wala agreed to take us without any extra charge on the meter, the attitude of the shopowner totally changed when he saw burqah clad woman. I know two of my friends who also wore burqah to meet their girls even their experiences were really good.

I really fail to understand why woman make such hue and cry about wearing a burqah. If one doesnt like to practice hijab its absolutely ok! not to wear burqah. But the author of this article just to drive home the point that she doesnt wear a burqah with naqab (to prove herself to be liberal), assumes that the entire woman folk who practice hijab has been brainwashed or forced and thats really absurd.

#40
Aditi Nadkarni
I completely agree with the first part of your response. Iam not a religious expert but I feel the reason for the hijab and lowering of gaze thing in Islam is to make sure that Human beings are not akin to animals as you have mentioned.

The second part of your response reminded me of the news channels who point their fingers for any calamity towards Al Q or Talib.. when they dont have any answers.

#41
Jay
It once again proves how difficult it is to contain ones instincts. Thanks a lot Jay

#42: Ok I am a little offended that you would actually find something in my comment to agree with. Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough.

You said "Things even become worse for men when women start shedding their clothes, displaying their cleavages..., so I believe women in Islam are very lucky to have been assigned the task of hijab"

I disagree. I think men who find it difficult to control their sexual urges need to see a therapist for extreme pyscho-sexual behavior instead of forcing the women to wear a hijaab. Controlling urges needs to be irrespective of the source of temptation. Your rationale if applied to extreme behavior would hold a rape victim responsible for wearing a sleevless blouse or a low cut shirt...which is ridiculous.

Also when you say:"The second part of your response reminded me of the news channels who point their fingers for any calamity towards Al Q or Talib.. when they dont have any answers."

When a few people choose to make such obsolete statements like the ones you have, one does wonder whether you come from a background that did NOT give you the good fortune of evolving your mentality and keep up with the current times.

It may not be liberal just to shed the hijab but it is definitely outdated to claim that women are lucky to be wearing one.


"assumes that the entire woman folk who practice hijab has been brainwashed or forced and thats really absurd."

When an entire religious community adheres to the use of a hijab, it is an indirect pressure on a woman to follow the norm. Ostracism, disownment by one's family/ friends, disapproval from religious figures in the community etc are considered to be a form of social pressure. It is not a healthy choice to make under such duress.

Jawahara

Outstanding piece. Really loved it.

I lived in a state(in India) where we had few muslims (may be 1 in 10000). We did not have a mosque with 200 Kms. So, I never saw nor understood or ever will understand why people wear Hijabs. While I have hired many muslims (men and women) in my company, the only time a women came in a Hijab, I did not hire her. I thought her husband may bang my head for talking to her or something like that. Quite foolish actually. But, we are allowed one mistake I guess.

I hate dogs and unreservedly. Probably because I once took a little kid (with blood all over my pants and his clothes) on my cycle to the hospital after he was bitten by a dog. It was a gory sight and the kid kept crying no end. My trust in dogs was broken as I dont fancy either blood or two injections in my belly. When I lived in Delhi (CR Park) almost every second person seemed to have dog. It was quite a frightening experience as I sometimes made quite a few detours to avoid dogs and reach my home safely without getting bitten and injections. My wife contends that through my morbid fear she has become more frightened of Dogs than I am now. Thankfully, both Bangalore and the UK have been extremely kind on the dog front.

Coming back to Hijabs, I find it extremely difficult to understand people wearing Hijabs in their countries of adoption. Why come to the west if you want to protect their culture in the way that they do?

rgds

OK jay, I take up the gauntlet;)

am ambivalent on hijab and find the whole enchilada a bit murky...keeping aside the religious impact of being a muslim ingrained on the psyche....i believe purdah and hijab have gross cultural or regional impact on the people.. a distinction i tend to make because in practice the billion plus muslims are as different (if not more) as say an indian from the north east is when compared with the one from the south or the southern indian from the north indian...this cultural interpretation of islam becomes stronger and gets implanted (erroneously) in their mind as Islamic per se!

(purdah or hijab is almost non existent in several countries)

another personal observation that borders on the dichotomous

some of my school friends have adopted hijab now...most have not...and then there is one who retains her liberalism today but her daughter has adopted the hijab!

then there are three sisters born and bred in T.O. who adopted hijab some 9 years back and profusely advocated its propagation at every gathering...two of them have since discarded it

then there are an infamous maulana's daughters who wear short skirts in london but switch to hijab and purdah in Karachi

told you am a bit ambivalent on purdah/hijab:)

am not sure if it is really forced...ok...maybe it is forced in backwaters like afghanistan or FATA...but generally speaking...purdah and hijab is a choice...an identity statement of those who adopt it as well as those who disown it and religion does not figure much in this quotient...so help me god!

ps: men get their kicks inexplicably...nude, semi-clad, or fully covered;)...each to his own....;)...don't buy the covering/moralistic argument at all:)

a+b ... I think another attempt to explain to these women is as follows...(They would never get it otherwise...not that they will get it now) ...

Men are offended, feel insulted and feel abused (mentally, sexually and psychologically)when women wear skimpy clothes in public place. Since liberals insist on the concept of mentally and emotional e.t.c abuse suffered by women (as in eve teasing e.t.c in public place) ...we want similar protection of abuse of men from women trying to woo and engage men by doing visual marketing "in public place"

The only difference between men eve teasing and women indulging in demonstrations of nudity(in the name of emancipation and empowerment) is that while the former is a verbal(oral) form of marketing, the later is a visual/pictorial marketing policy. There are abusers and abused in either of them.

And every Tom, Dick, Harry on the road knows "A picture is worth thousand words". These women would however refuse to agree with this proven adage for this very brief moment because it will not fit in their cocoon.

-------------------------------

Just like we have laws against abuse by unsolicited calls from marketing agents, banks, credit cards companies we want similar laws to curb women from trying to woo men in public , pressurize men to be attentive to them, mentally & emotionally distract, disorient them in public and in many cases sexually exploit them(See supreme courts verdict delivered yesterday in which a women filed a case of rape because the man eventually could not marry her).

The best way to argue with foolish, individualism driven, leftist liberals is to be highly verbose and offload jargons like abuse, mental, psychologically, legal, law e.t.c...If you try to talk of exactly the same concepts but using words like tradition, culture, religion, society they will shun you for being retrograde and will invoke Godwin's law (Taliban substituted for Nazi). However in their recitation of Godwin's law, the winner is (s)he who invokes the law.

Now you would question if men make at least 50% of population, how come their voices are not heard. I will try to explain you the problem.

These women bank upon those men for numbers who enjoy getting a glimpse or two of, what you know best. Now if you put up this argument of men getting abused, they(men) will refuse it because under the hood, those men are indeed animals enjoying this celebration of women emancipation. They gratify themselves with women indulging in this marketing. They strongly feel their task of previously indulging in eve teasing(at a greater risk) has been mitigated( to flirting...So A seemingly non intrusive, indirect but civilized form of eve teasing). While earlier they had to fetch it, now it is being served to them on platter in the guise of women emancipation. Who does not feel good after been served a free lunch. So this is how these women have numbers in their favor.


Sometimes,down the line, these women will lecture you about controlling urge blah blah...And all those preaching, telling men that the only animal between the two of us is you...

Tell them if controlling urge is indeed the issue why limit it to sexual...let everybody have control on their urges...

1) Let women control their urge for diamonds and shopping.

2) Let women control their urge for always wanting to marry up.

3) Let us not be compassionate with a girl/boy who steals a loaf of bread (as he does not have money) because (s)he could not control her/his urge(of hunger).

Lastly, tell them we have no problem "WHATSOEVER" whether woman roams naked or in Burka... And even if we have we will control our urge ;), "BUT"

Just ensure that...

1) For all the expenditure incurred on police, forensic investigations, judiciary, govt policies e.t.c for addressing issues born out of providing for such "women emancipation and empowerment" (as none of them are men issues) be extracted exclusively from women in form of personal woman taxes. Why should men pay taxes for benefits, which are availed exclusively by women? When did I pay tax for somebody who was robbed in "Rwanda". The maximum one can do is to give charity, but charity by no means should result into extortion.

People hate money, but I see money is the greatest teacher... It disciplines you to become rational and practical. The only stopping force to these pseudo liberals is the money. These pseudo liberals are enjoying effusing random impractical thoughts, because people like us are sharing expenditure for the expenses incurred exclusively on them.


2) Stop changing (support changing) the basic paradigm of justice, "Innocent till proven guilty". Men can not tolerate any special allowances based on gender at the phenomenal cost of blaming them to be guilty till proven innocent. It is highly unfortunate that a women are teased, molested, raped or gender abused but that categorically speaking should not in any way be the reason to support laws which hold up innocent men without adequate proof. Go spend money on all those forensic investigations, police machinery which will aide you to catch the real culprit, but do not take refuge at subverting and bending the basic paradigm of justice.

If women have the right to roam naked (right to self defined dignity), men at-least should have to right to survive (right to life).

My 1 cent...

P.S... (a+b) Personally speaking, I have NO objection to women "NOT" wearing Burka. Women in Burka or without it, "in public" do not affect me as a person (man).Thus when it comes collecting opinions on whether men get offended by Burka(or the lack of it), I am sorry, but I may not subscribe to it(in specific).

(a+b), etc: If wearing a burqah is getting you respect, you do realise they are not respecting you...but the burqah is. You could be an axe-murdering, pedophile under there. How is that satisfying?

I would rather get the respect someone gives me without me having to cover myself up like a ninja warrior.

Aditi, interesting comments all, and yes I would have been offended if (a+b) had found something to agree with in one my posts :-).

Chandra, thanks for your comments. I've heard this sentiment (about hijabi women) from others and while it is unfair in a way I totally agree. If someone cannot make basic allowances (and the opposite of hijab is not dressing like a Bollywood item girl) about what a professional or public space requires then why should they expect the same treatment? By wearing a hijab a woman does set herself apart, she is making herself different (heck she's even getting dubious respect from rickshaw-wallahs)...then why in the matter of a job does she want to be treated the same?

As far as dogs go, I do realize people are afraid or just don't like dogs. Which is why I keep my dog really close in public spaces and I follow the laws of the land. In the US dogs were not allowed in most places, so she didn't go. In Switzerland she is allowed almost everywhere (barring the grocery stores and post ofices) and so I take her. I still make sure she walks on heel beside me, that she doesn't rush up to people and only when someone asks me if they can pet her does she get petted/hugged, etc.

T, I get your ambivalence but as I've grown older I guess any that I had have gone away. I know I am not ambivalent about the hijab. I think it's retrogressive and backward and debases women. However, if someone truly chooses to wear one, more power to them. Just don't expect me to hold back my judgement because by wearing one you are judging all other women. So, just be prepared not to get this great respect.

I still don't believe women in hijabs should be harrassed or even forbidden from wearing it but I also don't expec them to act like idiots when I am (lawfully and responsibly) taking my dog to a place where she is allowed.

As far as throwing rocks at dogs in Hyderabad goes. You can get away with it there. In Switzerland if you do that you will be prosecuted and, in most cases, the abused animal will have its own attorney in court.

naked? right to life? gawd!

nice spin but will cut no dice am afraid...freedom to go naked is not in the cards...read the article and the 45 comments....if any freedom is referred to it is one of choice as in choice of clothing;)

If women have the right to roam naked (right to self defined dignity), men at-least should have to right to survive (right to life).

gobbledecook!

Unwarranted Selective interpretation.

Your freedom stops at the tip of my nose.

My decision to wear or or not wear something does not *force* you to touch/molest rape me. The solution is simple. Excersise your pious Islamic mind and cast your eyes down. In fact if your eyes are down, you won't even notice if a woman is naked in front of you.

As far as hijab goes, they are free to wear it and make their statement. And I am free to criticize them and make my statement. As long as i am not walking up to them and yanking their hijab off or invade their space, I am totally free to judge them.

And, FF, what the heck did your last comment mean. I am sure my X chromosome is making me stupid..but what the fuck was that?

Those who have dismissed #46 just becoz it is too long or coz its from a Siffer, pls read it. It is HILARIOUS.

Some precious ones from that comment:

"Men are offended, feel insulted and feel abused (mentally, sexually and psychologically)when women wear skimpy clothes in public place. Since liberals insist on the concept of mentally and emotional e.t.c abuse suffered by women (as in eve teasing e.t.c in public place) ...we want similar protection of abuse of men from women trying to woo and engage men by doing visual marketing "in public place"

Answer: The problem is YOU have such a huge ego that YOu think women are trying to woo YOU! They might just be wearing a nice skirt or a low cut blouse to enhance their appearance and feel good about themselves. And btw if you ever sexually aasault a girl becoz she was skimpily dressed and use the above defense in court, it won't work. It might make the judge laugh but thats about it.

"1) Let women control their urge for diamonds and shopping.

2) Let women control their urge for always wanting to marry up."

Answer: Both the above urges don't violate somebody else's right to space or life. If women want to buy diamonds, shop, marry up, they are not forcing anybody else to succumb to their wants. Forcing women to wear a hijab is. As Aditi said in a comment: Self-control should be from the self and not by putting a hijab over the source of temptation. That is hypocrisy and a "I'll do it coz I can" attitude on part of men in certain religious societies.


"For all the expenditure incurred on police, forensic investigations, judiciary, govt policies e.t.c for addressing issues born out of providing for such "women emancipation and empowerment" (as none of them are men issues) be extracted exclusively from women in form of personal woman taxes. Why should men pay taxes for benefits, which are availed exclusively by women?"

When you pay your taxes, does it have a special column for "women's issues" ??? :D

Taxes are usually calculated based on your income and on how much you owe back to the society. Not even a tenth of your taxes goes towards helping women.

And your PS section is the best FF!!!

So you arent in favor of wearing a burkha and wrote out an entire comment listing ideas in support of it. What do you do when you actually do support a cause. Wait don't tell me, I know, I've seen some of it :D

Sometimes you guys jump on a thread just coz it sounds pro-women to you. Its funny.

#50: Jawahara:

Something I forgot to say in my earlier comments: I liked your post :)

I have a beautiful, black labrador called Aibo who I miss very much (he is in India and I'm in the US). Interestingly he has eyes of a different color too...not each pupil, but he is a black lab with blue eyes which is very uncommon :D

I get very sad when people jump back or avoid him like he was the plague and it upsets him too. Labradors are particularly friendly and fond of people. So he has this confused and hurt look on his face when people shriek and jump :( And then he wants to console them so he moves even closer. It breaks my heart.

I took him for a walk once in our apartment complex on my visit to Bombay and a woman jumped back and called him a "black monster" !!!! It made me so sad that I stopped her, asked her why she said that and like Chandra in 44 she explained to me that her son had been bitten by a large black Doberman. I felt compelled to have her and her son be frenz w/ Aibo and had them pet him...eventhough they did it very gingerly. But by the end of the episode they fell in love wit him :D

I saw Naina's picture on your blog. She is awesome. I absolutely adore dogs, miss my loving Aibo and reading this post brought back memories. God bless Naina :)

#Aditi
Female body attracts male and thats a fact, a natural phenomena. From the honey bees to the favorite dogs of the author to the human beings. The whole concept of hijab/lowering of gaze I feel in Islam is to make sure that the female body is not looked upon as the object of lust or whatever terms you have used in your response.
In my discussion I have not gone to the extreme cases of rape or sexual assault. Majority of the men restrict the sexual feelings developed to themselves. Rape and.... are the extreme
consequences of those men who are unable to restrict them.
The question here is how not to develop those feelings. The hijab/lowering of gaze is one of the methodologies.
Women aura has taken over you so much that even If I agree with something , you just feel offended.

Again you are using terms like obsolete to redirect this discussion to somewhere else or you dont have any proper answer

#53: "The question here is how not to develop those feelings. The hijab/lowering of gaze is one of the methodologies"

What?!! Why should a person not develop those feelinsg?!! Opposite sexes view each other with sexual interest and that is normal, right? It is not the feelings that need to be curbed but the acting on those feelings that needs to be controlled. You seem to have gotten your priorities wrong.

You think that a guy will not have sexual thoughts about a woman when she is in a hijab. Ha! I don't think so. In fact they'll probably spend some time wondering how she looks under that hijab. Its a normal instinct. Like you said bees to dogs all have that instinct. But as humans, as social animals we just don't "act" on each urge. That keep the society in harmony, not abolishing or denouncing the feelings themselves.

See, if you think sex is dirty and should not be a part of our pysches, we will not be able to agree. I don't view human sexuality with such a tainted perspective. I think of it as beautiful and ideal only if mutual. I have no problems with a guy checking me out as long as he doesn't feel me up or sexually assault me. I have no problems with what's going on in a guy's mind when I wear a skirt.

This whole hijaab approach puts the social onus of maintaining civility of actions and purity of thought on women. And that is sexist.

Men need to take the responsibility of NOT acting on these urges like a stray dog would.

Also, (a+b), if I see a good looking guy, I check him out too but I wouldn't sit here and claim that he needs to wear a sack so that I don't run and hump him. I don't need that coz...I have self-control :)

*****

People who think that wearing a hijab can curb sexual feelings or thoughts are kidding themselves.

*****

I never ever claimed in my post above that I justify any kind of assaults(be it teasing or any other serious offense). A re-read will perhaps help grasp that

I am asking for protect to men from getting abused.

So if one finds it(protection to men) hilarious then (s)he is clearly not being women well wisher but rather somebody who wants to laugh at and dismiss miseries of men...Unless of course if (s)he believes that discussing miseries of men is akin to being anti-women.

FF:

how would you complete this?

FF is just naturally clever/devious: he didn't have to work hard at being clever/devious?

thanks:)

Taxes are usually calculated based on your income and on how much you owe back to the society.

Yes any tax paying citizen would be interested in how much he gets taxed. An even more aware tax paying citizen will be even more interested in knowing where the taxed money is spent. I have every right to be concerned on how much and where the taxed money is spent.

Secondly it is more than just the direct taxes...

Only yesterday, There was a brutal road rage case in Delhi in which two guys beat up a doctor black and blue in public and a day after you see them out enjoying on bail where as the while family including elders and children are sent behind bars for weeks and months at a mere allegation(without any proofs whatsoever) of a women.

Those who beat the doctor got of so easily, because our judiciary and police are so heavily loaded with possible false women cases that they do not get time to investigate other genuine cases and criminals practically go Scott-free.

A recent report submitted in ministry of law stated that women cases (which very likely are false cases) constitute 40% of total cases with judiciary and police. Where do you expect a common man to get justice if he gets the next date of hearing in next one year in place of next quarter.


We need more judiciary and more police force(at least twice the current size)to be able to deal with all cases with reasonable satisfaction(if not with perfection). Lastly calculate the cost of lives of those innocent men and families who had to burn off their precious Golden years going around courts.

I have not calculated the total cost (all inclusive) of women empowerment but I guess it surely will be as significant percentage of our GDP.

Correction: I will draw my claim that many women cases are false...The fact is I do not know as I was just extending my perception arising from huge number of false dowry cases to other women cases...Apologies.

#Jawahara:
Wow~! someone is getting angry!!!
I dont have any objection whether u practice hijab or dont, its none of my business.
#50,"As far as hijab goes, they are free to wear it and make their statement. And I am free to criticize them and make my statement. " . Similarly I have the right to criticize ("desicritics") whatever written on this blog is wrong or objectionable from my point of view.
#16,"Now we can say they are brainwashed by religion and men". You are trying to generalize the entire woman folk who practice hijab to be brainwashed on some baseless assumptions and then you claim yourself to be liberal.
#47
Jawahara:
"If wearing a burqah is getting you respect, you do realise they are not respecting you...but the burqah is."
Of course they are respecting the burqah and respecting you to have the courage to wear burqah

#Chandra:
I have same feelings regarding dogs as you have.

#FF:
Are you a MBA with Marketing as a major?
Thanks for the tip, I am fairly new to this blog and I dont have any idea what it means to be liberal. So far from the above discussion I find no difference between those illiterate mullahs and people who claim to be liberal.
Both of them take extreme stance without any proper logical reasoning

FF:

who is responsible for THIS?

hint: check the manual before replying

:)

(a+b) I do not think I would be affected/offended if I see women faces around me...I would however be offended and over a period of time my life, my social and moral life, and my job will suffer (and I suppose the same is true for many other men), if I see bare-back and semi-clad women displaying their cleavages and buttocks(in those skin tight low waist jeans) all around me. No matter, how much one conditions himself, it will affect men and their lives.

The fact that many women do not realize this is, because in absence of any study on men and their behavior(because they are considered disposable), women assume that men should act and behave in the same manner as do women. My assumption is that it is here that they go woefully wrong. Males (and hence I am not restricting them to human beings) are so genetically different beings than females. Much More, when it comes to basic instincts e.g being exposed to opposite sex. For e.g males are much more violent against other males than against females. The mask of living in a culture and civilized society (and clothes are very much part of culture) may have socially conditioned many of us to ignore tiny details like mere presence of opposite sex, but the genetically hardwired instincts, which render males to get sexually manipulated when confronted with ever increasing exposure of bare body by opposite sex, can not be ignored ad-infinitum.

I do not think there is a social angle to this difference in behavior. Rather society has been modeled thus far to accommodate this behavioral difference in males and females.

There is an urgent need to perform a rather deep and broad study on behavior and thought process of men if we want to model solutions for some of the problems women face. I do see that, having to wear Burka may be a genuine issue to many women, but we need to find solutions to this problem which is acceptable to both genders perhaps with some compromises on either side. But the solution can be arrived only if we prepare ourselves to study men with open mind.

FF:

thnks:)

you may begin with kinsey report and then go down the list;)

...because in absence of any study on men and their behavior...

caveat: going down is not suggestive!

Thanks for report...

#61: FF " I do not think I would be affected/offended if I see women faces around me...I would however be offended and over a period of time my life, my social and moral life, and my job will suffer (and I suppose the same is true for many other men), if I see bare-back and semi-clad women displaying their cleavages and buttocks(in those skin tight low waist jeans) all around me. No matter, how much one conditions himself, it will affect men and their lives."

You guys fight radical feminists who claim that men are the root of evil BUT you guys do the exact SAME!!! You claim women are responsible for all evils.

If there is a woman in a miniskirt in front of you and its making you not focus on your job: look away man! You can do it. All it takes is a few muscles in your neck. After all its YOUR job. So take some responsibility.

I am a man and I work around several women who look attractive and wear dresses that even if arent't revealing, do accentuate their figures. I am a guy too BUT I have never claimed THAT as a reason for my inability to focus on my job. That should be my responsibility. It is my job!!!

You guys belong to the whole group of cads who cheat on their wives and claim "Well, she flashed her boobs in my face...what was I to do??? I was helpless!!" NICE TRY!!

Most work places have a dress code, designated propriety of dress and wear in the workplace. Very little chances that you will see a woman in a bikini or a micromini in an office or a firm....unless you work at a sleazy massage parlor.

The problem isn't that you don't want a cleavage in your face. The issue is where does one draw the line????While cleavages seem to distract you,

....Maybe Mr.X is into well-shaped feet, so should a woman then wear big boots that cover her feet so Mr.X doesn't lose his job?

.....Mr.Y may have a certain fetish for long nails. So should women wear gloves to prevent his being distracted?

.....Mr.Z may feel aroused by luscious lips. So what does one do? Scotch tape across the mouth????

Where and how does a society draw the line? There already are several laws against obscene exposure.

***FF your thinking like most Siffers is very sexist. You feel that women should be clad in a saree, full sleeve blouse and a sweater/ cardigan so YOU can focus on YOUR job.

***You were raised to believe that women are supposed to be chaste and hence inspire purity of thought in men.

Welcome to the 21st century where men have to take care of their own responsibilities and not expect women to pick up and do damage control for their every weakness.


Be a decent man, if possible, stop drooling and look away. That should work too.

And if you cannot do that there IS someone you can blame:

GUESS WHO???

YOURSELF!

You guys fight radical feminists who claim that men are the root of evil BUT you guys do the exact SAME!!! You claim women are responsible for all evils.

Unsubstantiated claim.

If there is a woman in a miniskirt in front of you and its making you not focus on your job: look away man! You can do it. All it takes is a few muscles in your neck. After all its YOUR job. So take some responsibility.

Well not everybody is as lucky and independent as you. Many may need to talk and work closely with their colleagues.

I am a man and I work around several women who look attractive and wear dresses that even if arent't revealing, do accentuate their figures. I am a guy too BUT I have never claimed THAT as a reason for my inability to focus on my job. That should be my responsibility. It is my job!!!

Well the kinsely report that temporal supplied did say that their could be 10% exceptions. Checkout who those 10% are?

You guys belong to the whole group of cads who cheat on their wives and claim "Well, she flashed her boobs in my face...what was I to do??? I was helpless!!" NICE TRY!!

Unsubstantiated claim. Do you know me personally?


Most work places have a dress code, designated propriety of dress and wear in the workplace. Very little chances that you will see a woman in a bikini or a micromini in an office or a firm....unless you work at a sleazy massage parlor.

You missed out on big "IF" in my statement.I shall repeat if I see bare-back and semi-clad women displaying their cleavages and buttocks(in those skin tight low waist jeans) all around me.
I was arguing against the fundamental principle that men should be ignored totally when it comes to what women need to wear in public. If the same principle was applied in practice by all and sundry, the "IF" may have do be done away with.

It is nice that we(men and women) still preserve the culture, where we tend to dress decently(by my standard) in offices and many other public places. My argument was "NOT" against women(of past or present) but rather against the very principle.

BTW, FYI, My company does not have any dress code. I guess many MNCs do not have one.

and the rest ...

The problem is not that society does not know where to draw the line, but the fact that you will always find some who will want to break that line. And from my experience, I have seen that if women do not want to look sexually appealing/revealing they know how to avoid being one. Women are very shrewd and clever.

#65: FF: Bottomline: If you cannot control YOUR urges, you have only YOURSELF to blame. If YOU lose YOUR job because a pair of jugs distracted you, YOU are the loser.

Heads Up: If YOUR boss fires you and you say "I was distracted because Ms.X was flashing me", you will make a laughing stock out of yourself.

If in order to control your own urges you need a woman to cover herself up then you my dear man are extremely irresponsible. You would rather place the blame on societal issues for your own failures.

And this whole crap of "unsubstantiated claims" is BS. All my claims have been demonstrated by your OWN comments, line of thinking and logic, not just on THIS thread but in other threads as well.

If you ask the MNC you work w/ to provide a list of company by-laws or a booklet that HR deptmt provides to new employees, you will see a list of inappropriate conducts and attire. Its called "Issues & Policies" You may not be aware of this but you should be (especially if that cleavage is bothering you so much!)

If you are not working for a big company and you still find somebody's attire completely objectionable: file a complaint, put a suggestion in the suggestion box, have a conversation with you superiors and explain the issue to them.

Don't claim that their cleavage cost you your job.

Thats stupid.

"Women are very shrewd and clever"

Ah, yes, just like Siffers are extremely dumb and cowardly.

So much for "unsubstatiated claims"!!! :)

FF:


#60?

498a?

If YOUR boss fires you and you say "I was distracted because Ms.X was flashing me", you will make a laughing stock out of yourself.

If it was so, I will do that much before I get fired. Make no sense after getting fired. Is not that a Common sense?

In fact that is exactly what I am doing here. I have raised my objections to the very principle which may clone many JUGS around me tomorrow.

I think in my company we already have handful of them, but we always joke around them as we hardly(once on 3 months) get to interact with them. Moreover no body dares to question them because everybody is so afraid of the (ill)famous women empowerment brigade.

BTW, Company is just one of the shared places, there could be many more public places.

#68 FF

So lemme see, you are protesting what exactly on DC?? That women in your workplace are allowed to wear low cut shirts etc? Your boss reads DC that much??!! Does he also know that you, his employee, are on here, disgruntled by the dress code?

How is typing in BS on a thread that protests hijabs going to cause any reform in the dress code at your MNC???/

Are you ok FF?

You want women to start dressing in a code you assign them so that you don't get distracted????!!! What is wrong with you?

We all have dreams you know. Somewhere in Afghanistan your dream is being realized. Go there and you will be able to work in peace.

Men like you have given Indian men a bad name because of your control freak attitudes and overtly conservative expectations of society. You want women to do all the dirty work, take the blame, be responsible while you can do whatever it is you like.

This whole "women are shrewd and clever" applies to your mom n sisters too btw?

As a final countdown...

2. I have no big issues with my company or its employees. My only issue is with the very principle around which this thread rotates. In fact objection from men was my secondary issue, the primary one being innocent men pay heavy price.For that one may have to read #46 starting at

Lastly, tell them we have no problem "WHATSOEVER" whether woman wear burka or not...

1. I do not want women to dress as per what I or other men decide. All I want is that they should try to dress taking objections from men in consideration. I have no issues even if women among themselves decide the permissible limit they need follow in public, provided they are sensitive to objections from men.

0. Ab Bahut ho liya. Am feeling sleep. Will switch to some other thread. I have nothing more to say.

Oh my gosh, this thing really took on a life of its own.

(a+b) Angry? I really wouldn't waste my anger on here. Being emphatic about something is not being angry. Do make a note of it.

Aditi, you must miss Aibo so much.Poor Naina also cannot understand anyone not loving her. And actually, in California, our cleaning lady and her ten-year old daughter got over their fear so much that they would bring treats and pet her incessantly. And my niece who is now almost grown up was bitten by a German Shepherd when she was a child and was always afraid of dogs, but not Naina. She snuggles up with her, pets her, takes her for walks. Regardless, until I know someone is not afraid of her I don't ever let her go near them.

And, of course, yes, men and women were designed to be attracted to each other. Which is what makes hijab an unnatural custom. And, if that were true, there would be no molestation of rape of properly covered up women and that is defnitely not the case, right?

Jay, hear, hear!

So,FF (in case you do decide to read this) the bottomline is why should someone else be responsible for keeping your objections in mind while dressing? And, if we accept that in principle then shouldn't the hijabi ninjas walking around Lake Geneva keep the feelings and customs of their host countries in mind while they are here? Should they not be sensitive and drop their hijabs...and really take advantage of the clean Swiss mountain air?

It goes both ways for me.

It was a good discussion over all
Kudos!!!! to Saida aapa for writing this article

Saida aapa? Damn! I've only known one Said aapa in my life and she was really old and hunchbacked and had paan-stained teeth. Yikes.

But I guess...ummmm...thanks!

I am sorry never meant to offend you

I was joking (a+b)...apparently not very well. No offence taken.

Peace

Jawahara, hilarious article (am both a dog owner/lover and find myself on the conservative side of the full niqab debate) so completely identified. Interesting discussion too.

The discussion reminded me of the line from Mughal-e-Azam: "jab parda nahin koi khuda se to bandon se parda karna kya..." If we are made in "god's image" (as per the semitic textual logic) then why the need for Muslim women to cover themselves?

Oh for the poster who thought burqa gives women respect, good that your forced experiment gave you such a rosy view of it. Try a DTC bus in Delhi where burqawalis are targetted for "eveteasing" because the assumption is that they will not fight back.

Or try wearing a burqa and walking down a street in Jeddah - good chance that you will be abducted and "disappeared" by sex starved "good Muslim men" (scary statistics and reports on this particularly "Islamic" phenomenon. Ed Hussain touches upon this one too in his book).

Thanks Anamika :-)