Desicritics Comments on The Strange Case of Dr. Mohammad Haneef

Comment by sali

Fri, 19 Oct 2007 01:48:35 EDT

In Iran, Putin Warns Against Military Action: http://salihome.info/show/index.html

Comment by temporal

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 09:50:47 EDT

sure;)

Comment by MAPAD

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 09:39:31 EDT

"Islam is a violent religion and enslaves its followers by threat of death" temporal, disprove the statement or admit defeat. i'll allow to use chandra's arguments or your own. either is fine. :)

Comment by temporal

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 09:25:06 EDT

do your own work mapad read all his replies:)

Comment by MAPAD

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 09:23:06 EDT

you call it judging me on MY words, but you know that it s just tactical nit picking on your part to deflect the argument. :) if think chandra has effectively answered my statements then frankly i'm amazed! please tell me how chandra disproved this statement. "Islam is a violent religion and enslaves its followers by threat of death"

Comment by temporal

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 09:17:42 EDT

i do not know you:) am merely judginig you by your words your question has been effectively answered many a times by chandra...but you feign comprehension-challenge and keep on regurgitating fallacies :)

Comment by MAPAD

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 09:11:55 EDT

you're the kind of guy who will say that the existence of 200 Nazi's in Yugoslavia is proof that we didn't defeat Nazism in Europe. it's called nit picking. you know exactly what I saying. you are well aware that my point was not that america was perfectly free from prejudice, but that liberals had won major victories against prejudice. i was sincerely answering your question about how to defeat Islam and was using america's success in creating equality as a parallel to help explain my point. you largely ignored my answer and instead choose to home in a detail in order to deflect the discussion. how impressive! what a clever person you are! clearly messageboard point scoring is more of a priority for you than discussing how to protect human rights against totalitarianism. your tactics are lame, childish and suggest a lack of intellectual honesty on your part. :) p.s. if you want to refute my original claim that Islam is a violent religion and enslaves its followers by threat of death then go ahead! i would love to hear your arguments!

Comment by temporal

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 08:54:26 EDT

mapad: you wrote: how do we defeat islam? the same way we defeated sexism, homophobia and racism in America, by people speaking out. i humbly exposed your blanket fallacy ;)

Comment by MAPAD

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 08:49:03 EDT

oh wow temporal! how brilliant of you to make that claim! you are indulging in a debating tactic known as 'Reductive Fallacy'. yes, sexism, racism and homophobia still exist in america, but there is greater equality in america than in any other coutry in the world. you know all this, you are just trying to present one side of a complex topic in order to create a false impression. There you go, I exposed your cute little debating tactic. are you happy now? :)

Comment by temporal

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 08:28:56 EDT

:) because they still exist in the greatest country in the world

Comment by MAPAD

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 08:12:23 EDT

temporal, why is it dellussional for me to say that america defeated sexism, homophobia and racism by people speaking out? i don't see the connection between speaking out against injustice and turning on hatred. according to your logic, those who spoke out against hitler displayed hatred. utter nonsense.

Comment by temporal

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 08:04:35 EDT

mapad: how do we defeat islam? the same way we defeated sexism, homophobia and racism in America, by people speaking out. quite a delusional statement sir:) speaking out against injustice and wrong cannot be justified by turning on hatred and ignorance with after-burners your putrid generalisations to 'reform' perceived wrongs cannot be done in vacuum just like sexism, racism, and global terrorism still hold sway in your loved america so what is your final solution?

Comment by MAPAD

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 07:44:04 EDT

temporal - if you think I am engaging in doublespeak them explain why you think that, don't just throw the accusation out there. likewise, if you think I employ straw arguments then demonstrate that, otherwise your claim is baseless. we don't need to rid ourselves of 1bn+ souls, we need to rid our planet of the ideology of Islam. just as we didn't need to kill every German to rid ourselves of Nazism. how do we defeat islam? the same way we defeated sexism, homophobia and racism in America, by people speaking out. No-one in America had to suicide bomb to win equality for blacks, gays and women. People had to denounce predujice and sexism to defeat it. AMAZINGLY NO-ONE ON THIS BOARD SEEMS TO BE WILLING TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST ISLAM!!! How are we going to defeat evil ideas if we do not reject them? Islam's current war against america can be divided into 2 catagories. Military and ideological. The ideological war i just described. we must speak out against a religion that states kill non-believers and enslaves its own followers with death threats. we need to stop saying things like 'all religions are the same' and 'all religions have extremists'. those statements are total BS, and yet people say them all the time. If we win the ideological war then we will have to do less on the military front. If we had of succeeded in stopping hitler sell people on the idea that all Germany's problems were because to the Versaille Treaty, that Jews were sabotaging the country and that germans were the aryan super race then we wouldn't have lost 60million people in world war 2 would we? Islam is engaged in a war of ideas with the west. If you get people to accept that Jews are inferior then it won't take much for people to start killing Jews will it? Likewise, if Islam can get you to accept that suicide bombing is at least partially our fault then we're never going to get serious about combatting it are we? Militarily? We have to crush islamic militants mercilessly. We have no choice. These people are completely radicalised and will not stop trying to kill us unless we kill them. Did we have any choice but to go to war with hitler? i hate violence, but if someone is trying to kill then you have to go to war, or be prepared to be killed. i don't want to be killed by totalitarians. Just like we had to go to war with Hitler. He would never have stopped until we made him stop. Right now, we have the Taliban resurgent in afghanistan and terrorists trying reduce iraq to barbarism and poverty. We must absolutely crush them and make it completely clear that they will not suceed in creating hell on earth just like they have done in Saudi Arabia, Iran and the Taliban-controlled Afghanistan. Sadly, the apathy of the pretend-liberals on this board and their refusal to fight the ideological war against islam means that we are going to have to fight a bigger military war down the line. apathy is what made the holocaust possible. i think the apathy of the liberals on this board is deeply immoral and will cost many, many lives.

Comment by MAPAD

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 07:14:21 EDT

Diya, yes monthestic religion is completely totalitarian. Monothestic religion is based around the idea that there is a God/celestial dictator who will sentence you to heaven or hell at his discretion based on whether you have worshipped him correctly and adequately conformed to his wishes. However, Islam takes this totalitarianism a step further. Islam states that should you want to leave Islam you must be killed. Islam makes its followers physically captive as well as spirituality captive. The other feature to the Koran is that it is the only religion that claims its scripture is the literal word of God which makes it even more restrictive. At least with other religions it is easier to drop the texts that condone stoning, racism slavery etc. Personally i find totalitarianism offensive and a direct threat to human rights. Nazism, Communism and Islam are all totalitarian ideologies and we are all aware of the quality of life of the poor people who had to live under them. Obviously any sane and moral person is going reject totalitarism. Unfortunately, Dyia when a Muslims commits an act of violence they are doing exactly what Islam tells them to do, therefore we must hold Islam responsible. When somebody declares themselves a Muslim it is a problem because they are saying that they support the Koran and Mohammed. Mohammed was a murderer, peopophile and psychopath and the Koran is an evil book that inspires Muslims to commit violence. There is nothing pure about this. It is just plain wrong and it is our duty as decent people who respect human rights to speak against Islam and the Koran. Declaring yourself a Muslim is the same as someone declaring themselves a Nazi and supporting Mein Kampf and Hitler. We cannot allow or tolerate this. Islam is evil, just a Nazism is evil. Why we should not blame Islam for demanding Muslims commit violence? Why should we not blame Islam for commanding Muslims to kill for Allah? Why should we not blame Islam for instructing Muslims to 'slay jews and christians wherever you find them'? I blame Islam and its Koran for telling people to kill non-Muslims. I think murder is wrong. I cannot support it. I will speak out against murder because I think it is the moral thing to do. Will you join me Diya and denounce Islam and tis evil teachings?

Comment by temporal

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 06:54:09 EDT

mapad: please make up your mind and avoid doublespeak...it is all too simple for a reader to see through your straw arguments why don't you suggest ways to rid these billion plus souls? (now that you have switched tactics) gas chambers? nuke them? and if you don't have a final solution in mind then share with us your practical solution instead of the rhetorical bile you foam off every board :)

Comment by Diya.

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 06:44:56 EDT

MAPAD, let me ask u this... aren't most of the religion in the world totalitarian ideologies and demand submission?? now don't get me wrng here... i feel religion per se is very pure..so wht makes it unpure?? simple! the extreme ideology of some of the people following it..ie. some 0f the corrupt once.. ill give u an example.. i am a hindu and i really respect it.. but do i respect caste system? no..even tho its very mch a part of it.. its an established fact that caste system was incorporated in hinduism in the long run.. at the beginning there were no such concept.. so wht i am trying to say is this... lets not blame islam religion.. u can can attack the extremists u want to..not the religion...

Comment by MAPAD

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 06:31:30 EDT

temporal - thanks for your comment. it's very easy to answer this. I have stated repeatedly that Islam is a totalitarian ideology that demands complete and utter submission from it's followers. Muslims are slaves to Islam. The Koran instructs Muslims to commit violence. Muslims are violent and immoral to the extent that they submit to Islam. I doubt it is much fun being a violent immoral person, that is why I see Muslims as victims. That is why we must liberate Muslims from Islam. It is the ideology of Islam that is the problem. That is why I invite people to attack and discredit it. temporal, will you join me in denouncing Islam or are you just going to look the other way while violent immoral people (who are acting on the instruction of Islam) threaten our safety? Have I made this clear?

Comment by temporal

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 06:03:32 EDT

heheh Maybe we should just all look the other when violent immoral people are threatening our freedom and safety? now you have switched from attacking the religion per se all this while to attacking the followers despite solemn declarations to the contrary wah bhaee wah! ;)

Comment by MAPAD

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 05:26:13 EDT

I have said multiple times that Islam threatens its followers with death should they choose to leave Islam, therefore they are captive slaves. Sorry, to break it to you Chandra, but the fact an Indian muslim has not been executed for apostacy does not disprove this statement. My statement still stands. :) As I said, executions rarely happen because Muslims would rather remain trapped within Islam than be killed. Surely you have the empathy within you to understand their predicament? CHANDRA: Why should somebody go to a court and say 'I reject Islam'? MAPAD: A Muslim would not choose to go to court to reject Islam! If a Muslim speaks out against Islam they will be brought before an Islaimc court. If they still speak out in the court room they are sentenced to death. As you can well imagine, Muslims who want to leave Islam do not want to do so by dying! CHANDRA: You have no business in telling people that their religion is wrong. MAPAD: So I would have had no business telling Hitler he was wrong either? Maybe we should just all look the other when violent immoral people are threatening our freedom and safety? Is that what you're recommending? Who's side are on Chandra? You are starting to worry me! Do actually support terrorists? Surely not. Please put my mind at rest! Chandra, I did not have to trawl the internet to come up with a list of muslim terrorist acts. I simply read the newspaper a couple of times a week. Sadly, it is getting harder to ignore the onslaught of violence commited by Muslims. The Koran states the following; "You will receive a great reward if you are killed while fighting for the sake of Allah." (K 4:74) "If non-Muslims do not want to convert [to Islam] capture and kill them wherever you find them." (K 4:89) I think we have safely established that Islam is the most violent ideology in the world today. Please join me in denouncing Koran inspired violence. Please show me your commitment to human rights. Why I am a lunatic Chandra? Is it because I confront violence and totalitarianism? Is it because I defend Liberalism and human rights? The Koran is violent, Mohammed was violent and today many Muslims are violent because they follow the Koran. Will you join me in denouncing Islam? Will you join me in denouncing Islam's threat of death to its own followers?

Comment by Chandra

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 04:24:36 EDT

MAPAD: I never claimed that Indian muslims had been killed for leaving Islam Chandra: You said Muslims are killed, Indian or otherwise. Yet, you do agree that all muslims are not the same. What is your point then? You seem to agree to my point about good and bad apples rather than blaming the religion. MAPAD: Very few people are going to stand up in an Islamic court and say 'I reject Islam' when they know that the consequence of saying that is that they will be executed Chandra: Why should somebody go to a court and say I reject Islam? Does every Hindu or christian go to a court to reject their religion? Religion is a private matter, whether you accept it or reject it is a personal decision. It is only when cranks like Laden, christian missionaries and nut case hindus make it a public issue that we end up in conflict. You have no business in telling people that their religion is wrong. Let them take their own decision. There are many gyaanis on this planet for good now MAPAD: Now we are finding some common ground. Yes I agree, if you tolerate Islamic bullying you only embolden Muslims to bully more. Chandra: No common ground mate. There is a difference between threatening others and getting threatened. Nobody is issued a fatwa in India because we Hindus are a majority. People can do that against a small western country because there are few muslims living there. Secondly, saying provocative things against any community is patently wrong. It is silly to say the least. But i guess you are too demented to understand that. MAPAD: Show me another of group of people who can match this list of terrorist acts Chandra: Why should I? I dont trawl around the internet searching for religious based violence. Why? because I am not a nut. Just because two muslims blew up themsevles at Glasgow, does not mean all muslims in India think that way. Just because Dhanu blows herself to kill Rajiv Gandhi, it does not mean all Hindus are like that. Just because the catholic IRA kept bombing protestant Britain, it does not mean all catholics are that way. Have a sense of context. Learn to evaluate things a little sanely. MAPAD: Muslims do not have their own freewill. Muslims are slaves Chandra: So what do your muslim friends tell you when you tell them this? Even missionaries in India tell Hindus in India about their paganism. Of course we know they are wrong, just like you. It is lunatics like you who need be reigned before disaster strikes rgds

Comment by MAPAD

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 03:27:46 EDT

CHANDRA: You are yet to give me examples in India where people have been killed for leaving Islam. MAPAD: I never claimed that Indian muslims had been killed for leaving Islam. Allow me to remind you what my statement actually was. 'islam is a totalitarian ideology that reduces muslims to slaves because they are condemned to death should they wish to exercise freewill and leave their captor.' Perhaps I should point out something rather obvious here. The reason there are not many muslims who have actually been executed for leaving Islam is very, very simple. Very few people are going to stand up in an Islamic court and say 'I reject Islam' when they know that the consequence of saying that is that they will be executed. My statement remains the same. Islam uses the threat of death to enslave Muslims. Will you finally accept this statement? CHANDRA: So many Indian politicians have said various things about Islam. MAPAD: Now we are finding some common ground. Yes I agree, if you tolerate Islamic bullying you only embolden Muslims to bully more. I'm sorry to tell you Chandra that Islam is substantially different from other religions. -Islam threatens the death penalty for those that want to leave -Islam is the only religion that claims to be the literal word of God -Islam is the only religion that insists non-believers must convert, pay a poll tax or be killed -Islam is the only religion demands complete 'submission' from its followers Why does me making truthful and accurate statements about Islam mean I am 'full of hatred'? Would warning against Hitler's persecution of the Jews also be proof of 'my hatred'? I agree with you that Muslims are killed by non-Muslims, but that was not my point. My statement was that Muslims are more violent that other religions. Show me another of group of people who can match this list of terrorist acts. -Bali Nightclub -Beslan -Madrid -London 7/7 -9/11 -Mumbai -London/Glasgow -Truck bombing in Iraq I can give you many, many example if needed. Show me proof that Muslims are not the most violent terrorist group on the planet. Chandra, I want to thank you for helping make my point about threats. "So many Indian politicians have said various things about Islam. No fatwa yet. These fatwa issuing mullas will always choose small liberal leaning countries. Let me them try India for example. They will not because they know the penalty for such an act." Yes, you are right, Muslims do not issue Fatwa's in India because they understand the penalty/threat. Muslims understand threats. Muslims live under threat of death if they leave Islam. Because of that threat Muslims are held captive to Islam. That threat enslaves them. Muslims do not have their own freewill. Muslims are slaves. So now we can agree on this simple point right? Why does criticisizing an inhumane religion like Islam prove that I am full of hatred? If I criticize Hitler does that mean I am full of hatred too? Are you ready to accept that Islam enslaves its followers, poses the greatest threat to civilisation because it is violent and it members commit terrorist acts as part of a campaign to subjugate non-muslims? Are you ready to do the right thing and denounce Islam?

Comment by Chandra

Sat, 4 Aug 2007 02:36:42 EDT

MAPAD You are yet to give me examples in India where people have been killed for leaving Islam. I know of cases where lovers have been killed but that has been a mix of Hindu and Muslim both. So your continuous hatred needs to be followed up with solid evidence. I dont see that. MAPAD: Some of the people who have Fatwa's issued against them are killed. Ask Theo Van Gogh the Dutch filmmaker what happens to some of the people who criticize Islam. You won't be able to. He's dead. Theo was killed by muslims because he criticized Islam Chandra: So many Indian politicians have said various things about Islam. No fatwa yet. These fatwa issuing mullas will always choose small liberal leaning countries. Let me them try India for example. They will not because they know the penalty for such an act. If you show weakness, people will exploit you. But that does not mean you go about hounding people and reminding them that their religion is screwed up. Missionaries in India are just like you, everyday in the monring they visit the poorest of the poor in India and remind them how screwed up Hinduism is. Then they tell them the Jesus died because of their sins. What crap!!! All religions are equally screwed up. Tell me one religion that is not screwing around with non-believers? Hindus, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, all of them. The problem is not the religion, it is the people. People like you who spread hatred around, it people like you who are a problem to civil society. You need mental help of some sort that will enable you to get over your hatred. MAPAD: I find it equally strange that global terrorist violence is not proof to you that Islam is more violent tham other religions Chandra: you have some data or this is an invention of numbers - Muslims get killed in India (by hindus) - Muslims kill others (in many countries) - Christians kill muslims (Chechenya, Iraq, Afghanistan) - Buddhists kill hindus (in Sri Lanka) - Jews kill muslims (in Palestine) Of course, I dont see it this way at all. You talk about the great muslim danger because it threatens your country. 15 years ago, you guys were sleeping with every possible muslim country in this world. Not only that, you were arming the nut case bin Laden because he was ready to fight Russia. So, you think they suddnely discovered religion? Please learn to understand the context of your statement. All religions are equally bad and equally good. If you think muslims and islam is a problem, dont let them enter your country and even better donot buy oil from them until they give up their religion. That I am sure you will not do, you have only greed that drives you and your country.....

Comment by MAPAD

Fri, 3 Aug 2007 20:51:07 EDT

CHANDRA: What islamic court? There are no Islamic courts in India. MAPAD: If there are no Islamic courts in India then it is because India not an Islamic state. Not yet anyway. ;) This does not prove that Islam does not prescribes the death penalty for apostate Muslims. This does not prove that Muslims do not live in fear of the fact that Islam prescribes death for them. My point from the beginning has been that Islam prescribes death to Muslims who wish to leave Islam. That is contemptible. You have yet to disprove that statement. Muslims accept the Koran as the ultimate authority in their lives. The Koran prescribes the death penalty for those choosing to leave Islam. Will you now agree that Islam threatens the death sentence to Muslims who wish to leave Islam? Will you join me in denouncing this cruel death sentence? There are 50 Islamic countries. In some of these countries there are Islamic courts. If you stand before one of these courts and reject Islam you will be sentenced to death. Even if you are a muslim living in a non-Islamic country you live in the knowledge that your own religion prescribes death for you should you choose to reject Islam. It is very likely that if you publicly reject Islam that a Fatwa will be issued against you even if you do not live in an Islamic country. Some of the people who have Fatwa's issued against them are killed. Ask Theo Van Gogh the Dutch filmmaker what happens to some of the people who criticize Islam. You won't be able to. He's dead. Theo was killed by muslims because he criticized Islam. These death threats are very, very real Chandra. This means that if you are a Muslim you are a captive slave of Islam. You are held under a death threat. If you have any doubt of the seriousness with which Muslims take this death threat then simply go and talk to Muslims. Read the following article if any of this is unclear. http://worldnews.about.com/od/ glossarya/a/islam_apostasy_2.htm Currently, the following countries have laws sanctioning the death penalty as a punishment for apostasy: Afghanistan, Iran, Mauritania, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudia Arabia, Sudan, and Yemen. Furthermore, Muslim clerics may issue fatwas declaring believers apostate, putting them at risk for violence at the hands of fundamentalists or even honor killings by their own family members. Do you realize that Salmon Rushdie has lived under police protection for nearly 20 years? Do you think the Islamic death threat for apostacy is real for him? CHANDRA: Show us some examples of recent times. MAPAD: Here is a well known recent example of a muslim who was sentenced to death for apostacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_(convert) There is also the famous case of Salmon Rushdie, of which I'm sure you're aware. CHANDRA: Really? Have you read the Bible and the Gita or you trawl only anti-Islamic web-sites? :-). There are so many instances of wanton death in both these books. MAPAD: The Bible and Gita do not prescribe the death penalty for apostacy. Islam does. If you would like to refute this point then please quote directly from the Bible and Gita. Islam is the only religion that issues a death threat to its own followers. CHANDRA: Where? Also, what makes you think that religious fundamentalists from other religions are less worse? Just like you quoted from the Koran, there are enough quotes from other religions that prescribe violence on others. But sorry, I donot take that as the basis to judge people or the religion they follow. MAPAD: Are you blind Chandra? Can you not see how Islam is more violent than other religions? Have you not heard of Beslan where 186 school children were slaughtered by Muslims? Have you not heard of 9/11? Have you not heard of the London 7/7 bombings? Have you not heard of the Mumbai train bombings? Have you not heard of the Madrid Bombings? Have you not heard of the Bali Nightclub bombings? Have you not heard of the London/Glasgow bombings? Do you not read about the frequent truck bombings in Iraq? All these terrorist acts were committed Muslims. How can you argue that Islam is not a violent ideology? Please show me another religion that is currently as violent as Islam. Chandra, do you accept that Islam prescribes the death penalty for those who reject Islam? Do you accept that someone who is held captive under the threat of death is a slave? Do you agree that Islam deserves special contempt for enslaving its own followers with threats of death? Chandra, I find it very strange your reluctance to condemn Islam for making a death threat against its own followers. I find it equally strange that global terrorist violence is not proof to you that Islam is more violent tham other religions. Only Islam prescribes the death penalty for leaving, therefore it is the only religion that practices slavery. I find the enslavement of Muslims particularly offensive and therefore I criticize Islam more than other religions. Do you think I am justified in being more hostile to Islam than to other religions?

Comment by Bystander

Fri, 3 Aug 2007 14:33:49 EDT

[edited] read guidelines and stick to it

Comment by Bystander

Fri, 3 Aug 2007 14:31:30 EDT

MAPAD...people like the author are what is known in blogging as "the Tireless rebutter"....For Tireless Rebutter there is no such thing as a trivial dispute. He regards all challenges as barbarians at the gates. His unflagging tenacity in making his points numbs and eventually wears down the opposition. Confident that his arguments are sound, Tireless Rebutter can't understand why he is universally loathed.