Desicritics Comments on Why Israel Should Talk To Hamas

Comment by bd

Thu, 12 Jul 2007 17:15:07 EDT

Well, if it comes down to attacks such as large scale missile attacks, then needless to say, talking will be furthest from the mind. And for what its worth, I personally do not think the command structure has to completely break down for that kind of rogue action to take place. Best of luck, Ruvy

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:40:34 EDT

Not all issues here revolve around war and peace. the biggest cause of death in Israel - other than disease - is automobile accidents. You'll be hearing more about this aspect of life here soon - either at this site, or at Blogcritics Magazine. I have a funeral to go to in about an hour... Nevertheless, Aaman, thank you for your prayers and kind thoughts. Regards to Deepti. Reuven

Comment by Aaman

Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:46:57 EDT

We'll pray you stay safe and perhaps even do some live-blogging:) Which reminds me, haven't seen much writing from you of late, tales of summer on the Red Sea Riviera, perhaps?:)

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:37:37 EDT

bd, Unfortunately, I think these events will occur not because I want them to occur, but because Israelis hate to be played for suckers. And the government has been playing Israelis for suckers since the beginning of the Oslo Accords in 1993. 1. What I'm talking about is an Arab (or Iranian) missile (as opposed to Katyusha rockets) assault on Tel Aviv. I think this is in the offing in the not too distant future. When it occurs, it will cause immense damage and many casualties. When it does occur, the secular Israelis living there, heretofore carefree and willing to ignore all the suffering that the rest of us have undergone, will throw off the shackles of delusion and start massacring every Arab in sight, going south and east in raiding parties. What will convince them to throw off the delusions of peace and peace-making will be the burning buildings behind them, and the collapse of much the command structure of the IDF. Their hatred of their murderers will arise like bile in the throat, and they will fight like aroused lions using every weapon they have and can steal (they won't bother buying anything). There will be vicious street fighting and massacres, and Arabs will flee from their homes to save their lives, as they are fleeing Gaza now. 2. The kind of fighting I describe above will not remove the existential threat. Accomplishing that would take a different kind of war, but if, in the wake of the collapse of the command structure of the IDF, renegade units get control of the missile force we have, you may see that kind of war launched. This is not something I can predict with any accuracy; however the books of prophecy in the Hebrew Bible indicate that Damascus will be a rubble - indicating an incendiary air raid or nuclear assault, and Ezekiel's prophecies against Egypt hint at a huge flood that will destroy Egypt - the kind that would be caused by the destruction of the Aswan High Dam. If the Israeli government collapses under missile assault, then the folks living in Judea and Samaria will start to fight Arabs who will likely attack them. It could all get damned ugly, but we have the heights and can shoot down on an assaulting enemy. And the Arabs will not rain missiles on Judea and Samaria - too many Arabs would be killed... In the event of such a conflict, I may be offline - and fighting in battle myself... ;o))

Comment by bd

Tue, 10 Jul 2007 16:12:44 EDT

Ruvy thank you for your note. Let us say that you are right in that there is no point in talking to Hamas. You do say that they have to fight like the lions of Judah. But I am afraid I am not convinced that fighting like the lions of Judah will remove the existential threat. Can you shed light on 1. What kind of fight are you talking about? 2. And what makes you think that that fight will remove the existential threat? cheers bd

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Tue, 10 Jul 2007 06:28:49 EDT

bd, I see you have not understood a single thing I have been telling you. From the point of view of the Israeli elite, "Palestine" was a cash cow to make money for the Israeli elite (like Yossi Ginosar and Shimon Peres) and the PLO was to be the strong-arm guy to help enrich the Israeli elite. In turn, the PLO, through the person of Arafat and his immediate lieutenants, impoverished the Arab cities and towns with gangsterism backed up with the stamp of approval of the PA. And they enriched themselves as well as their Israeli business partners. But Arafat's terror against Israeli civilians gradually killed off the "golden goose" of employment in Israel and thus killed off a lot of Arab prosperity. This was what I meant by "el-FataH will loot first and kill later". The loss of jobs and economic security is the reason Hamas was elected when the PA was dragged into relatively free elections in 2006. Hamas has made no business deals with the Israeli elite. Their intent is to kill first and loot later. There is nothing to talk about with either of these two groups, as they both have the same goal. And the leaders of Hamas, seeing what "looting first and killing later" (negotiating and cutting business deals with the "cursed Jews") has meant for the PLO, will not make the same mistake, no matter how much pressure is applied to them... Give them some credit for intelligence. The Tel Aviv peace elite, the rich pricks and soulless prostitutes who have ruined this nation, protected by barely having been hit by terror, and not having been hit at all by missiles, cannot understand that their survival is on the line. They refuse to believe that there is an existential threat to them. So they continue talking about talking, when they should be arming (and not talking about arming, either)! When the missiles hit and the buildings burn, they will finally figure out that they are kikes just like the rest of us, to be led to the slaughter or driven away from the country. Then and only then will they rise and fight like the Lions of Judah that they are. The vicious irony here is that the peaceniks, secular Jews who do not have the respect of the somewhat more religious Moslems, will have missed a huge opportunity for peace davka through pushing their vision of peace through surrender. Much blood will be on their hands and they will be judged for their actions.

Comment by bd

Tue, 10 Jul 2007 04:30:27 EDT

chandra well, the way i would put it is that the probability of having an overt war is now higher. If you look at the news emanating from syria or relating to syria from israel, its slowly ratcheting up the scale, a general indicator of something going to happen. So, while it might well be unlikely, the probability has increased. Second, yes, i agree with you, Fateh has now become an extension of israeli policy to a large extent, and no, Israel doesnt have a problem with fateh any more. But this is exactly what I am saying, that Israel should replicate its strategy with Hamas!, get them brought into the process!, an outflanking manoever so to say! cheers bd

Comment by Chandra

Tue, 10 Jul 2007 03:16:35 EDT

BD I dont think war is near. Asymmetric, YES (& Ongoing). Symmetric, highly unlikely. I also believe that the Hamas is isolated and will have to find ways to be counted as an important component of (any) negotiations. What way it chooses will be interesting. As far as I have heard, the FATAH is an extension of the Mossad. Have you heard of Mohammad Dahlan's incredible wealth in London? So no worries to Israel from fatah. rgds

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Tue, 10 Jul 2007 01:09:27 EDT

"Jewism and feminism?"

Comment by Halal and Kosher

Mon, 9 Jul 2007 17:59:35 EDT

Ruvy, There is a Palestine Cabby, who takes me to airport, with whom i engage in discussion about Israel, which had led me to read about the history and present of this madness over there. I will be getting back to you, with your Jewism and Feminism.

Comment by Ruvy in Jerualem

Mon, 9 Jul 2007 17:28:08 EDT

Thanks, BD!!

Comment by bd

Mon, 9 Jul 2007 12:29:50 EDT

I agree, 67 should have given them a good chance to really bury stuff, but there you go. But based upon the performance of the israeli army, I am not confident that it can replicate a 67 again. It simply does not have the wherewithal to do it again, and more importantly, the US administration at this moment, is a lame duck. Tough times indeed those articles were quite interesting! :)

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Mon, 9 Jul 2007 07:21:54 EDT

bd, Apologies accepted. No biggie. The '67 victory was a miracle, a gift from G-d. Our leaders were too stupid to understand that and have been spitting in G-d's face, figuratively of course, since then. So, the problem has indeed morphed into something a lot bigger than it had been in June, 1967. One pays for rejecting gifts from G-d, and indeed we are paying now. Go check out Mark Schannon's satire at Blogcritics Magazine and my comments there. You may find them interesting. Also check out this item also published at Jewish Indy.com. Living here is a very interesting experience...

Comment by bd

Mon, 9 Jul 2007 06:36:05 EDT

Ruvy my sincere apologies about the name issue, serves me right for doing so without editing my comments. Apologies again. The all out war is definitely now higher in probability. After all, as I mentioned in my essay, when existential threats are being faced, the range of responses fall outside "normal" ranges. I mean, for example, the chances of a stray missile or a bomb falling on mecca are quite high. Seriously. Securing victory over the enemy is where i think we diverge a bit. 1967 was as close as one can seriously get to all out victory, but 40 years now, the threat remains, and has morphed into something else which is far more dangerous because there is not much physically which can be done to it. but I agree with you that war is near. too bad cheers bd

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Mon, 9 Jul 2007 06:25:46 EDT

bd, Just a last point for you. I do not represent the ruling elite here. The ruling elite is a criminal regime that has cut deals with el-FataH in the past, and resents Hamas for taking away the cash cow that had been "Palestine." Frankly the leaders of this regime have NO balls whatsoever - which is why there will be a terrible war here with many dead and with much destruction - soon, likely this summer or fall.

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Mon, 9 Jul 2007 06:18:15 EDT

First of all, bd, not all Jews are named Levy. Try Ruvy, as in short for Reuvén... One error I noticed (unless it has been fixed) is the word "Wwest" somewhere in the essay. Second point. Wahhabis call themselves Salafis. The Caliphate called them heretics, idolaters and apostates and rightly so, for many of their beliefs. Third point. Your last comments about not talking to either fateh or hamas is where we diverge on a philosophical basis. Let's look at this from the point of view of a fellow commanding an army in the 7th or 8th Century. He is on the attack, he seems to be winning and he has a basic question. Should he loot the enemy and then kill him, or kill him and then take the loot? According to el-FataH, you loot him first - and then kill him, taking what remains. According to Hamas, you kill him first, and then loot freely. That's the big difference between the two. All the rest is just ego and noise... That's why there is nothing to talk about with them. They intend to kill us either way. The simpler solution is to blow the bastards away before they get the chance to blow us away. A tad bloody and uncivilized and not quite playing according the Marquis of Queensbury rules, but the issue is survival, not looking pretty in the boxing ring. Unfortunately, in this case, we need to secure the victory over the enemy, no matter how bloody or genocidal that victory may seem to the eyes of outsiders, like the readers of Desicritics. Afterwards, after the Arab enemy has been reduced to groveling on its knees for peace - then we can talk peace. Till then, it is only war on the program - whether we in Israel want it or not.

Comment by bd

Mon, 9 Jul 2007 05:03:01 EDT

#3, ashish that's indeed the challenge, but if you look historically, that is the starting position of almost all resistance groups. But you need to give something to them to get something back. Also remember that the reason why hamas dont want to move from their maximalist positions is because of multiple reasons, but given sufficient movement, like on the west bank settlements, open up the economy, etc, there is definitely a chance. at end of the day, remember what happened in 1967 and now. or 1948 and now. Do you really want to suggest public policy to a country under existential threats? for how long? and looking at how the world is evolving, if israel isnt smart, then it will be turned into a pariah worse than its now. hence my idea of a pre-emptive strike of talkign with hamas. Oh!, btw, one needs to take out the head of the snake in syria, but that's a different matter.

Comment by bd

Mon, 9 Jul 2007 04:58:40 EDT

#2 Levy, thank you for taking the time to comment. 1. could you direct me to the spelling mistakes? I re-ran the spell check but couldnt identify it. 2. Naming the behaviour against jews/israel/zionism is very problematical and I did address this point earlier, it also has my reasoning why i call it as anti-semitism, not least because generally, in the western world, that seems to be the general usage. Also, i dont want to get hung up on the nomenclature issue, if you know what i mean :) 3. The Red Army had issues, no doubt, we are talking about a peasant army with a long history of brigandism. But the fact that it did have these rules compared to Chiang's ruffians was a big factor in winning the hearts and minds of the populace in all the civil war battles. That was the comparison whcih I want to draw, comparing hamas with fateh. 4. Your last comments about not talking to either fateh or hamas is where we diverge on a philosophical basis. The fact that Israel has an existential problem means that it cannot wish hamas away nor can it erradicate it. Looking at how the world is evolving, my view is that a flanking motion by talking to Hamas as an organisation would be better. Look, Israel talked to Fateh, didnt it? despite huge numbers of documented statements starting from the late 60's that fateh were terrorists and nobody will talk to them? Why live in a crisis when one can manage around it? I do realise the "you are with us or against us" philosophy of the foaming part of the salafi's (rather than the wahhabi's!). But the advantage of speaking to hamas is that it short circuits the salafi's because if you can have a very long dated treaty with hamas, then the militant salafi's become hamas's problem (just like hamas and islamic jihad became arafat's problem). You see, levy, there IS an organisation to talk to unlike we here in england who dont have anybody to talk to about the terrorist campaign. It will be a shame if Israel didnt utilise this opportunity to be smarter and outflank those foaming beards. cheers bd

Comment by bd

Mon, 9 Jul 2007 04:48:55 EDT

#1, thanks Sanjay, i look forward to hearing your unpicky comments :)

Comment by Ashish

Sun, 8 Jul 2007 08:36:13 EDT

I agree whole-heartedly. How can you talk to a group that does not grant you the right to exist, then it is difficult to justify talking to such a group. In the midst of intense international pressure including from Arab countries, Hamas refuses to recognize Israel. Further, Hamas believes in the principle that any compromises it makes are just that, short term measures while it struggles to meet its goals of eliminating the state of Israel. I believe that Israel recognizes the problems regarding the Arab growth rate, and hence the push to leave the Gaza strip and West Bank and not include them as part of Israel. Further, the Arab minority have their own representatives in the Knesset and I believe even had a minister. I would think that it is the biggest test for ISrael, being a country dedicated to being a place for Jews worldwide, and yet be a modern democracy. None of the countries surrounding it can claim to be that.

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Sun, 8 Jul 2007 04:57:36 EDT

Bhaskar, Aaman Lamba, the publisher of Desicritics, e-mailed me, asking to critique this piece. Reading this, I noticed a couple of spelling errors you might wish the editors to look at and correct. In addition, if you mean to talk about Jew-hatred or hatred of Jews or the people of Israel, I suggest you use the term "Jew-hatred" rather than misleading terms like "anti-Semitism" or even "anti-Zionism." Jew-hatred gets the point across very clearly. For example, when an Egyptian mob shouts "el yah�d klabn�!" (the Jews are our dogs) there is no intellectual discourse going on. When a crowd of "Palestinian" Arabs scream "tab�H el yah�d!" again, there is no intellectual discourse going on. This is mere Jew-hatred pure and simple. The people doing the screaming (or slaughtering, as was the case in Hebron in 1929 or Damascus in 1840) were arguably Semites, and were, by definition, not anti-Semites. And they will all tell you this. In Hebrew, we call this "l'hitHamék," to slither out of something like a snake would. The slitherer is called "Hamakm�k" and these Arabs trying to deny their obvious Jew-hatred are "Hamakmak�m" of the first order. The big positive in this piece is that you recognize that the Jewish entity here is facing an existential crisis. So many writers refuse to recognize this at all. At least you have more wisdom than they do. As a student of history, I can tell you that the rules of the Red Army you listed were followed more in the breach than in fact. The Red Army was feared by all because they were known as a bunch of raping thieves when they fought. I also can tell you that these rules look awful familiar - the IDF developed its rules for "nikay�n hanéshek" (literally cleanliness of the weapon, but essentially rules for clean and moral engagement in war) from the Red Army. You recommend attempting to negotiate with Hamas. If you know anything about the Moslem Brotherhood, from which both el-FataH and Hamas arose (albeit in different time periods), you know that they were originally like a Moslem scouting organization that fell under the influence of Wahhabi clerics many years ago; you will also know that they are influenced strongly by Wahhabi ideas and that the Wahhabi basically do not subscribe to the idea that you can be a person not of their faith and live. From your own name, I assume that you are not a Moslem. So, according to the Wahhabi, and according to the doctrines spread throughout the Wahhabi financed madrassas world-wide, you, not to mention all the non-Wahhabi reading this, must either die or convert to be Wahhabi. Being a plain old Moslem is just not enough. You need to subscribe to the specific principles of the el-Wahhab and HIS interpretation of the Sunna and hadith. These people are most unlike the vast majority of the Moslems of India, who, as of yet, are not Wahhabi. The reason I'm going into this in such detail is that from this you should realize that there is absolutely nothing for Jews to talk about to either Hamas or el-FataH. With them, any conversation is about surrender and conversion - or death. The difference between el-FataH and Hamas is that el-FataH is willing to talk business with you and see how they can make money off of you before killing you. Hamas is more honest. So with el-FataH, that final conversation about surrender and conversion will come later - when your pocket is a lot emptier. I commend you to the website of Sheikh Professor Abdulhadi Palazzi, a Sufi legal scholar for clearer and more accurate information on the Wahhabi than I can provide you. He is the expert. I am the mere humble student. You'll find his articles most illuminating. I have. Finally, there is a route to peace for the Children of Abraham, though I sense that this route will not be followed before there is a great amount of blood shed first.

Comment by Sanjay

Sun, 8 Jul 2007 01:00:36 EDT

Bhaskar, your arguments are so preposterous as to be laughable. I will pick them apart shortly, when I have the time.