Desicritics Comments on Cartoon: US H-1B Protectionism

Comment by ChristopherHill

Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:53:39 EDT

"For success today look first to yourself."

frank folfw
[link=http://frankthefrank.info/]my blog axzaw[/link]
[url=http://frankthefrank.info/]frank folfw[/url]

Comment by BuckBentley

Sun, 13 Apr 2008 07:23:28 EDT

"Romance comes into your life this year in a very unusual way."

my blog nncqr
[link=http://frankthefrank.info/]my blog nncqr[/link]
[url=http://frankthefrank.info/]frank anwxk[/url]

Comment by ChristianCarmel

Sun, 13 Apr 2008 06:53:41 EDT

"Everywhere you choose to go, friendly faces will greet you."

my blog cyutr
[link=http://frankthefrank.info/]frank ysttr[/link]
[url=http://frankthefrank.info/]my blog cyutr[/url]

Comment by JessicaCamron

Sun, 13 Apr 2008 06:24:33 EDT

"Every important call is a close one."

my blog ahdyd
[link=http://frankthefrank.info/]my blog ahdyd[/link]
[url=http://frankthefrank.info/]my blog ahdyd[/url]

Comment by smallsquirrel

Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:35:23 EDT

anjali... you've really taken everything to the absolute extreme there, haven't you? You make it sound as if every american is racist, every minority in the US is terrorized and unable to live their lives, and that the US is the center of all that is bad in the universe. is that how you really feel or were you using hyperbole to try to prove a point? mari.. I have already told you that I do not agree with you, so... still... not agreeing.

Comment by Anjali

Thu, 5 Jul 2007 11:42:59 EDT

Mari, I am not offended - why should I be? We Indians are quite used to being ridiculed or patronized by Westerners all the time. Post 9/11 many of us have been abused, beaten and one Sikh gentleman was killed in Boston and even now many browns hate flying in US. The minorities do not feel safe in the US, we don't even talk against American politicians in public fearing that some random dude sitting at the next table might call us in as terrorists or taking some snaps of the Golden Gate Bridge might have us hauled in? so who would have the cojones to protest? The democrats and republicans eye us all with suspicion for terrorism and resentment of the offshoring. But that probably didn't even feature in your radar- why would you empathize with a brown or care what happens to him in your country? Is it fair for the US to demand Globalization when it suits their purpose? We were given aid only on the condition that we open our markets. And now that you are finally feeling the competition due to your own much touted system you say - unfair! Back in the nineties in India during the transition a lot of government manufacturing units were shut down. Hundreds of workers lost their jobs, many committed suicide, many didn't know how to feed their families. Who took care of them? Did the American hearts bleed for them? Mari, what you are feeling has been done to you by- Capitalism, your own politicians- democrats and republicans, the fat pigs sitting in Wall Street and your corporations.Why take it out on us? We are as fungible as you are.

Comment by Mari

Thu, 5 Jul 2007 11:05:07 EDT

You may be offended if you wish - in America, minorities are NOT shy about protesting when they feel offensively stereotyped. Here the issue is that over the past 6 years hundreds of thousands of foreign workers have been imported to address some fictional 'shortage' while hundreds of thousands of highly skilled and educated American workers were let go to make room for them. There were more suicides than Kevin Flanagan, and the suffering was so great that our students are shying away from computer-related educational programs.

Comment by Anjali

Thu, 5 Jul 2007 10:52:53 EDT

Mari does that mean we Indians should be offended with the Family Guy makers for showing India as a cholera ridden country or Appu in Simpson? Where does one draw the line between political correctness and comedy? If for every little racial joke we go up in arms then one will have to start with Seinfeld where they cracked so many jewish jokes or grab Bill Mahers for cracking jokes about Muslims all the time! Don't huff and puff so much over a toon. When we accepted Appu with his brood of kids and dotted wife why is it so tough for you to accept a Farting American Rabbit? Its a clear case of demanding freedom of Speech from the world but having a thin skin when the joke is on you.

Comment by Mari

Thu, 5 Jul 2007 09:21:36 EDT

According to Western legal concepts, slander, libel, and defamatory speach is that which has the potential to harm the reputation or ability to earn a living or live peacefully in a community. Therefore, you can't harm the dead by speaking ill of them, and you can't harm a Deity, but you can cause harm to ordinary living people by damaging their reputations and causing them to be viewed with contempt. Repeating the defamation of others is also defamation. As such, these sorts of things are considered to be actionable civil torts in the West.

Comment by Sujai

Wed, 4 Jul 2007 07:59:01 EDT

Come On! Its just a cartoon. How did we react when Muslims around the world took up arms when Mohammed Cartoons were published? What was our response? 'Oh! They are just cartoons' Grow up!

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:51:31 EDT

Sanjay- who is demanding it as an Obligatory Right? Not me! So point out where I said it! They can hire people from Timbuktu thats their right! My response was to Babes who thinks that we IT H1 holders are taking their 'bread and butter' away. And I was saying that it isn't all rock and roll for us either. That where you stepped in and said that I said H1 visas are a 'right' Ring a bell? You stepped into an argument where I was talking about the insecurity and hoops we have to jump in the Tech industry and in the end you yourself that that job security in Tech industry is nill.

Comment by Sanjay

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:34:01 EDT

That's not the argument I made, Deepti. My argument was that H1-B visas are not some obligatory right to be demanded. And besides, India is suffering from a spiralling wage increase, due to brain drain to the USA. Besides, with those workers then spending their time and money in India, then they'll be benefiting the local Indian economy.

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:30:52 EDT

A right? Where did I say that? You don't have an argument left after its been dismantled bit by bit and the last hit was done by you yourself. Time and time again you make false assumptions about people to suit your purpose . Kindly show me where I called it A RIGHT!!! Its a business necessity that drives the offshoring modal and meets certain needs in other fields like in the medical department. I was discussing the H1 is in the IT sector. Re-read the entire thread. Consumer pockets? With the dollar falling the IT industries in India are scared that their profits will diminish over time. Don't give the Walmart argument. We aren't discussing materialism but the insecurity of holding down a job whether it be in America and may soon be India that yourself fear may soon happen to your career. So cut down your pseudo bull shit!

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:21:37 EDT

I work in IT, but I don't consider it to be a stable enough career to bank on for the long term. You just fucked your own argument Sanjay! You agreed for a fact that thanks to Globalization you job in the IT sector is not secure. And yet you huff and puff when Aaman and I point out the same thing? Me thinks you 'blowhard' out of malicious anger and not reason.

Comment by Sanjay

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:20:38 EDT

Which ugly underbelly are you referring to? All your quote did was to confirm what I said, and made no mention of what you consider to be the ugly underbelly. How typical of you. The ugly underbelly I'm seeing from you is that you're demanding H1-Bs as some right that is owed to you, when it's upto the host country to decide whether to offer them. Withdrawal of the H1-B won't make those economic needs go away of course, and will either switch them to offshoring, or else generate price increases across the board that will ultimately hit the consumer's pocketbook.

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:05:26 EDT

As Aaman said - That's not true, of course, lower costs of implementing software make the US and other companies better able to compete in the global marketplace and deliver better products at lower prices and higher margins, or so the theory goes. Who is denying it? It is Capitalism at its best where quality is provided at cheap pricing. We aren't discussing the highs of Globalization but its ugly underbelly that you are averting your eyes to and unable to refute.

Comment by Sanjay

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 22:25:50 EDT

Profit maximization and savings maximization are all relative. There's no sin in it. If you make a long distance call at night when it's cheaper, instead of making it during the peak daylight hours, then is it a sin? If you buy gas when it's cheaper and not when it's more expensive, is it a sin? Stop creating a fake argument, as is your habit.

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 22:19:06 EDT

aman, you make it sound like all business owners are big tycoons. Even small businesses, including real estate agents, are able to take advantage of offshoring, hiring phone answering services and secretaries at much lower cost. Because you're a Lefty, you see all business-people and employers as elite bourgeois tycoons. They're just people who have a work ethic, unlike you Sanjay, when you lack content you make it up with name calling as usual. Force of habit? Even when your 'small businesses' turn to off shoring they do it to increase their profit margins not because they can't find some clever American college goer to take their calls . It is all about business and nothing personal as they say when they lay off their employees. Which is also why your contention that anyone who talks about the nature of off shoring lacks 'work ethic' is as down right illogical and stupid! The entire offshoring modal is based on 'profit maximization' There is no way one can skirt around that issue!

Comment by Sanjay

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 19:03:04 EDT

Aaman, you make it sound like all business owners are big tycoons. Even small businesses, including real estate agents, are able to take advantage of offshoring, hiring phone answering services and secretaries at much lower cost. Because you're a Lefty, you see all business-people and employers as elite bourgeois tycoons. They're just people who have a work ethic, unlike you. Sourceplease, you're just setting up a false straw-man argument, claiming that Indians view American education to be inferior. Shows how little you know -- plenty of Indians flock to the United States for its education system, or send their kids to it. I've never heard of any Indian regarding American education as inferior. That's just your own fallacy. As far as your contention that you have a good degree from a good school, I'll say that the business world is increasingly more interested in what you can do, rather than merely what papers you can flash them. IT in particular is always a rapidly-changing field, and being proficient in something useful today, doesn't mean that it will be useful tomorrow. I work in IT, but I don't consider it to be a stable enough career to bank on for the long term. Wait until electric vehicles start coming out. Then your anger will be drowned out by the roar of all the experienced auto mechanics who find their skills suddenly less in demand, since electric motors and their solid state components tend to break down less, and require less maintenance. ("Whaddya mean piston engines are being outlawed? Tom Tancredo sez this Global Warming crap is just a bunch of crap being spewed out by greedy corporations!")

Comment by arw

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 08:04:23 EDT

if Americans are so lazy then why do we get less vacation time and take even fewer vacations than just about any other developed nation?

Comment by Aaman

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 07:50:10 EDT

Sourceplease, that perception is not common or rather, is exceedingly rare. I do know that the Indian education is very competitive but given to rote learning rather than original thought, which is part of what makes many Indian programmers (and pizza boys) not very good at thinking out of the box. One possible reason behind the perception, for those who hold it might stem from their interactions with American IT types in the companies they work with - these are not your Google or Microsoft high-fliers, but more likely just people trained on older technologies and business processes holding down a job and not quite savvy about technology/market trends, as opposed to the fresh, relatively more tech-savvy software engineers who interact with them. For that matter, many of the American counterparts forget that the software engineers are just doing their own job and have little to do or care about the larger global/trade/offshoring issues here. To borrow a Marxian concept and be sure to rile Sanjay, the global brotherhood of the proletariat/working class is turned against one another and ~~the only real beneficiaries are the business owners~~ That's not true, of course, lower costs of implementing software make the US and other companies better able to compete in the global marketplace and deliver better products at lower prices and higher margins, or so the theory goes. I've rambled on enough, and should really write an article or two myself about outsourcing/offshoring from the inside - anyone is welcome, of course, to sign up as a Desicritic and write about their own views on the topic.

Comment by Sourceplease

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 07:28:49 EDT

For one, the American Right Wing used to be ok with H-1B and other visas, until the visas started eating into the prosperity of the white collar middle class. Now, even Tom Tancredo and Eagle Forum hate the visas and often include them in discussions of illegal immigration. Second visas and offshoring are not either-or choices. Guestworker visas are often step one in a process that eventually offshores the job. They often provide on-the-job training to foreigners, until the work can be carted back to India or China. So, they are seen as a threat for that reason. Finally, I would love to know more about where Indian stereotypes of US workers come from. I've been encountering this since 2001. Seeing us assured that we couldn't possibly handle IT work (the country that pretty much invented the field), that our workers are less educated than Indan workers (I hold a graduate degree - and not from a diploma mill, and so do many of the IT pros I work with), and that our educations were no good (the ones who came to our universities apparently didn't notice how many of us were also attending). To keep running into this sentiment suggests that it is being promoted within Asian culture somehow, probably not in English or we would have found it already. The 35=10 rule. The idea someone suggested to Ross Perot, jr. that your brains work differently and are better with logic - where is this coming from, I wonder?

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 05:41:51 EDT

BTW, we are talking about techies here- our biggest nemesis is China. Do you think for one minute Infosys or Wipro will not hire more English Speaking Chinese if they are cheaper than their Indian counterparts? Don't put the Indian corporations up on a pedestal. They are no different! And BTW in one of my comments I did talk about Americans working in India and inviting them here with open arms. But I doubt you read that either just as you didn't read the comment where I talked about off shoring techies having a hard life.

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 05:35:49 EDT

Sanjay, have you read my comments? Seriously? It seems you are talking to yourself. No where have I said that I am against H1 visas , nor have I touted 'Protectionism'. Re-read my comments or else you are clearly wasting both our time. Corporations are not for their employees - they are all about profit maximization. If layoff make them richer than so be it, today the Americans techies are being laid off, tomorrow it will be our turn. They are like parasites. To be naive and think that the company will 'take care of you' because of your abilities is being deluded and ironically 'socialistic'. The color of your skin and nationality is immaterial. If laying you off or not giving you that 'Green Card' that got you to stick around in the US on the H1 in the first place makes sense they will take that carrot away without batting an eyelid. Thats what you need to understand. Its time you took off your rosy shades and realized that when it comes to globalization nationalities don't matter only profit margins do and thats the reality we have to live with. Which is why to beat up the immigrant techie laborer who took away the 'American job' makes no sense.

Comment by Sanjay

Tue, 3 Jul 2007 04:33:13 EDT

Deepti, the fact is that H1-Bs are used to serve economic needs. The removal of H1-Bs won't make those economic needs go away. It'll simply result in more jobs being shifted overseas, to service providers in India. How Americans choose to see their economic needs solved is upto them. My saying that has nothing to do with ball-licking. The fact is that you can't defy gravity. Economic opportunity will flow to those who provide the most value. If Indians are providing more value, then opportunity will flow to them by compulsion of market physics, and no legislation or internet flame-wars can stop that. Indian economic growth is more than capable of absorbing any H1-B rejects back home, and it will in fact help to address the problem with wage inflation. The fact is that those whom you are debating with here are white left-wingers, and you refuse to recognize that. It's the American Left who are screaming against H1-B visas, and not the Right. Conservatives believe in free enterprise and market choice, whereas the White Left are the ones who will greedily cling to jobs without caring about merit. So now do you see how Lefties are ultimately not your friend?