Cartoon: US H-1B Protectionism

Racism, defamation, and hate speach. If the tables were turned, there'd be an outcry and a lawsuit.

So, we have an image of Americans being fat (pizza, soda), with fangs and full of gas....

This is a racist cartoon against Americans and by American culture, should be condemned.

Supposedly the "artist" thinks he is exposing hostility from Americans against H-1B Visa holders. In fact this cartoon shows a very racist, derogatory and biased view of Americans.

Also, the symbolism of hare and tortoise also implies the hare is an inferior beast to the tortoise (most of us know Aesop's fable of the Tortoise and the Hare). This again shows amazing discrimination and a derogatory view against US citizens.

That is pretty racist and unfair given the recent expose of sneaky immigration lawyers (Cohen & Grigsby) working against US citizens.

And they say US citizens have an job "entitlement" problem!

Since its only a handful of senators and congressmen making noises, it could very well just be a shakedown or a publicity stunt. Throw them a few bucks, put 'em on the board and most will just shut right up.

I concur with the comments above. you've gone like 5 steps too far here.

The American Immigration Lawyers Association has created a $300million yr. scam, fooling India into sending it's educated workforce to America.

There are some 250,000 displaced American Tech-workers in America, whom can be brought up to speed in a semester. America graduated 54,429 Comp Sci B.S. in 2004, 5059 were foreign born.

The numbers do not count under-employed Associate C.S. degrees, nor of self-trained types with Branded certifications. There is no shortage of Tech-skills here.

India is not "saving" America, Americans are saving America, as we speak.

India must develop a specialty to be performed in India, otherwise India is just one stop on the way to cheaper labor. (Observe what our oligarchy has done to Mexico with NAFTA.)


By the way -- the cartoon is ignorant, how many five and six year, non-immigrant high-tech work visas does India approve per year?

As a cartoonist, you've succeeded, if you've provoked sufficient reaction.

Interesting imagery of the hare and the tortoise - I don't think too many pizza delivery boys are desis though, even in the outsourced world.

Given the amount of racist talk from the US protectionists about Indians and other H-1B holders, it's funny to see them take umbrage at a cartoon.

cartoon is in the same vein as leno n jon stewart. harmly fun but poigantly true

Switch the characters in this cartoon: Make the American the turtle and an immigrant the fat, farting hare. Now, ask yourself, would Leno or John Stewart EVER do something like this? Absolutely not-- First, because they are class acts and second because they'd be run out of town for being racists.

Thank you Vikram for showing Americans what India thinks of them. With friends like this, who needs enemies? Should we be trusting India, Inc. and Nasscom and their members with our mission-critical process and our sensitive data? Maybe not.

Wow. Is this type of blatant racism/nationalism accepted in India?

Just like Lou Dobbs does not represent the American view on outsourcing nor does the cartoonist represent the views of billions of Indians.

Its actually in the vein of what Thomas Friedman and Lou Dobb caution. Its a wake up call, if America does not pull up its sock then like the Hare it will fall behind.

The Chinese in fact are eagerly learning English and its becoming cheaper to out source work to China than India.

Competition is stiff and Americans need to realize that to be ahead of the race they have to be one step of ahead of the rest of the world.

Its capitalism at its best or worst.

"Given the amount of racist talk from the US protectionists about Indians and other H-1B holders, it's funny to see them take umbrage at a cartoon."

The word "racism" is thrown around too often. H-1b is a law that mentions programmers. Is it racist to say that "H-1B is a law that mentions programmers?" Or to say that "58% of H-1Bs are programmers?" Or to say that "that's market tampering."

American programmers have problems for only one reason--everyone else America BESIDES the programmers are protected. In India, a good programmer makes 30K, and a truckdriver make 3K.

In the US, a programmer makes 70 and a truckdriver makes 50K. Now who's overpaid? The American progammer, who makes double his indian counterpart, or American truckdiver who makes TWELVE TIMES his Indan counterpart...

American programmers pay for the truckdriver's salary when he buys food; he pays for the schoolteacher's salaries when he pays taxes; he pays for the nurse's salary when he gets sick.

He can't afford to compete with Indian programmers--because American truckdriver's aren't being asked to compete with Mexican truckdrivers, because American schoolteachers aren't being asked to compete with chinese schoolteachers, because American nurses aren't being asked to compete with Philipino ones.

He has an issue with the deliberate targeting of his profession--with the fact that 58% of the Visas are programmers, and noone else is being asked to compete at all.

We may live in global, diverse, economy, but H-1B is not a global, diverse, law. It is a narrow, focused, and discrimintory law. It targets programmers.

If we were simply to bring in immigrants, that would be fair.

The TARGETING of programmers in the law is what creates ill fealings.

totally agree with CC CC. reminds me of a cartoon in the NYT over a decade back wherein there was Uncle Sam telling all the immigrants to be booted out and a native american standing nearby who quips "shall i start your packing". in an ever shrinking and crowded world - who is the exploiter and who is the exploited keeps shifting. you can never please all - thats why you have an opposition in parliament. :-)

The economic point is a good one: the competition is NOT fair, and American IT professionals are not losing out because they are fat and lazy. They need to earn an American-sized paycheck compared to Indian IT people because they have to pay American-sized bills. A temporary Indian IT professional doing a stint in the US only has to cope with our cost of living for a short time. I was in a coversation with Indian nationals who were dumbfounded at the energy bills we pay - I actually had to explain that in most of our country, it gets cold enough for much of the year to kill a person (and what that would do to your plumbing if you didn't heat your house). They were amazed that if you became homeless, and took your children begging, Social Services would take a dim view of that and put your children in foster care. I had to explain that the reason why American education average scores seem poor is that here education is compulsory for ALL, including the non-English speaking children of illegal aliens. We are spending a fortune educating children that developing nations are still writing off. Our roads, public facilities (libraries, parks, recreation centers), law enforcement, emergency response teams, all paid for at US prices by taxes, primarily income and property. Impoverishing a whole profession is almost an act of war against America, and this phenomenon is branching out to other professions besides IT and withering the economic health of America's Main Street. And our people are waking up to that, which is not racism but economic survival.

Babes, actually my energy bill in the US was lesser than what I pay in India. I lived in the US for five years, moved for about 6 times, in fact in one year I moved twice. Thats the life of an Indian H1 IT person. I could have bought a house in the US but had to move around so much that it was out of the question. Hell, I didn't even buy a car since we were on the move all the time.

For those who come on H1's especially Techies with families face all kinds of problems which of course go unnoticed by those who resent the immigrant Techie presence.

Our kids are uprooted year after year. We have no families to fall back on and worst of all many of us pay Social Security for which we don't get a dime back.

So , yeah we pay for the up keep of American society of which we are only temporary members.

I don't know the Indian you spoke to but let me tell you that for us immigrant Techies who come on sight life is definitely much harder but we do it because thats the career we have chosen.

There are many Americans who have come to work in India. If you can't get a job there come here! We will welcome you with open arms:)Buy a home here and be part of us.

Also H1 techies form not more than 50% of the total applicants.

But that is the problem Dee, we CAN'T buy a home here. The hoops we have to jump to to come work here are as st base as difficult as the ones that you all have to jump thru in the US. OK, so there are not quotas, but the same bureaucracy, the same bullshit... and then on top we have to pay higher bribes to get anything done. Prices for rent automatically go up for rent when landlords see our white skin. We cannot own property here (unless like me you marry an Indian) and in some ways I can see why... but yeah, it's not like the Indian government makes things easy for us!!!


everyone else...I see both sides of the issue for sure with the H1B visas. The way immigrant workers are treated is not great. I do not condone it, and I do think America needs to think hard about how it needs to behave in order to be a good global citizen AND stay agile in a changing world economy. But I think it is strange that people think that a foreign gov't would not act in it's best interest. So in fact, "protectionism" (whatever that means) is innate to all governments. If I told you I felt like the Indian government doesn't take my needs into account when making laws, you all would laugh at me until next week. You would say why should it, right?

I just think it has become sport to malign the US as much as you want whilst still expecting them to cater to everyone and anyone's needs. I am not saying the US does a good job, because clearly things are lacking in many ways. But I just think the above representation was unnecessary and rude.

The Vanishing American Computer Programmer

SS, I do get your point- India in many ways is still socialistic and has a lot of problems.

But if there is reason to be disgruntled then those who have lost their jobs should take the issue up with the CEOs of their companies who've become richer by lay offs or even the Wall Street; frankly techies working onsite are no more than slaves.

BTW I don't think Americans are lazy slobs. Most are hard working people with little time at hand to fart or burp around, but cartoons always go for the jugular, and try to pull the viewer out of their comfort zone, imho

#11 and #13: I find your comments laughable, really.

How is this cartoon even remotely racist. Have you seen Apu, the Simpson's character? Do you see the extreme stereotyping? I know only two grocery store owner Indians and about a hundred doctors and engineers. So how come Apu is a grocery store owner with 6 kids? I adore Apu and I think the Simpsons have done good in taking the sting out of racial stereotyping, but how is this cartoon any different? Just weeks ago "The Family Guy" (twas I think) aired an episode where India was portrayed as a Cholera inflicted land where little babies had flies mounted all over their face. And you guys are here on Desicritics discussing "blatant racism" in a humorous demonstration of stuff we already know. The US is and has always been the smug superpower who believes itself to be leading in every aspect (the hare) and most other nations have made slow but steady advancements from humble beginings (the turtle).

What's racism gotto do with it?!

gunboat diplomacy works both ways, if it's fine to force-change Chinese laws to suit Western business interests, to take only one example, and expect trading rights that confer extra-territoriality on American citizens, why is it so hard to accept changing business trends that make a job cheaper and better to execute out of the United States.

The business leaders of the United States are not fools - if someone locally can do the same job better and cheaper, they're welcome to compete. It's CEOs like Bill Gates and companies like Google that are fighting hardest to improve access to foreign programmers, not NASSCOM.

Aditi, macaca and loving it:)

I don't even think that many US programmers ARE losing their jobs to foreign workers. The numbers certainly reflect that is not the trend. The US simply is not producing enough engineers and programmers to meet demands. So it's not that which irks me. America needs to toughen up in many ways.

I really get annoyed when I hear Indians say the US owes them more than they own, say, Latinos. First of all, I dislike that kind of qualification. But to get right down to it, the US has built itself on the backs of latinos for the past 20+ years and has still not done right by them. Indians think they have it bad, but the US has clean up that mess first.

Aditi... well, in a way I also think this cartoon is racist. I mean, as I said, it is sport to simply classify all americans as fat, lazy, dictatorial slobs. It is extreme stereotyping, and not of the kind like the Simpsons, which is just offensive across the board to Indians, Gays, Whites, Vegetarians, Drunks, CEOs, single mothers, etc. The US has not ALWAYS been a smug superpower. It had humble beginnings as well. It just started a lot earlier than other nations. Granted, it did so on the backs of others, but there was also a lot of hard work on the part of it's citizens. It's not like the US just woke up one day with that kind of economy, infrastructure and government. Be fair!

Aaman... OMG, macaca.... LOL! that was quite a scandal, nah?

Good article on the H-1B visa program

It is delusional nonsense to say that there is any shortage of tech talent among American locals. From what you call 'freshers' to experienced senior level people, ALL are having trouble getting interviews, getting hired, and dodging layoffs. Remember to count all the American techies who were forced, not only out of jobs, but out of the profession entirely over the last 6-7 years. Salaries over here have been stagnant, jobs hard to come by, and now we have "YouTubeGate" exposing how companies go to the trouble and expense of hiring legal firms to coach them on how to avoid hiring Americans. There is no shortage over here and there never was.

mari.. no it is not, as you say "delusional nonsense" and has more to do with what part of the country you live in than a lot of other factors. If you look at pure supply/demand and job numbers versus graduates, there are enough jobs. But what happens is that people do not want to move to take up a new job, or they do not want to switch the path that they are on. Yes, there has been a recession, and yes, there are problems in some areas. But hey, I never had a problem in Washington DC, could basically dictate my own wage and my own career path. You have to be flexible.

Do you honestly think that if things were as you think they are, that there are no jobs for techies, that the US government would even consider letting in other people to do the work? There would be such hell to pay from the backlash...

The reason the US government cooperates with the big corporations by letting in foreign labor has everything to do with political contributions, influence, and lobbying. It has NOTHING to do with labor scarcity, which is and always was false. Foreigners love to blame American workers and are always making up fairytales to explain why they are getting jobs and we aren't. No we didn't [multiple choice here] let our skills slide, fail to pursue ongoing education and training, stay current with technology, be willing to relocate, etc. etc. etc. Fairy tales may make foreign workers feel like they are not causing problems for us when they are, and some of the stories I've heard justifying foreign workers are so far detached from on-the-ground reality that they border on the psychedelic. Between the years 2000 and the present, hundreds of thousands of foreign workers were brought in on various visas. During those same years, hundreds of thousands of us were let go (and this is continuing). As if being cheaper and more submissive to bosses were not sufficient explanation, I keep hearing foreign workers tell themselves and each other ever more fanciful tales about why is is supposedly ok. But that doesn't make it true.

well, good enough, but I am not a foreign worker, so how do you explain that? I do not think the reality is as cut and dried as you want it to sound. Yes, I agree there is a lobby and big business throws it's weight around in the US and gets what it wants a good deal of the time. However, it is not the wild crisis all over the country that you are making it out to be. Not all states' IT industries are suffering like you project they are. Like I told you... I was in DC for 10+ years, during the worst of it all, and I always had a top paying job, always could dictate my salary, and could choose my own career path. Not sure what state you are in, but location could be a huge part of the problem.

No one ever said that we all got fired or went broke, just that way too many of us did. Our labor market shows all the signs of a surplus. I also got three job offers during the worst of the recession, but it would never occur to me to put down someone who didn't because I will never forget the job hunting process during those days. Luck played way too much of a role. Hundreds of applicants for every opening, people with graduate degrees applying for technician jobs, people with years of experience going for entry level positions and internships, everyone looking high and low for work, any work. Just because you did ok, doesn't mean others weren't impacted, even in your location. I'm sure that the activist organizations would have no problem finding American workers who got mistreated in your city - run around by fake ads, forced to train their replacements, etc.

look, I am not the one saying that everyone that doesn't agree with me is delusional. I told you that I see areas where there are problems, but you're too busy blaming the (as you called them) "submissive" immigrants that you cannot see that your experience is not everyone else's. I did not put down anyone, I just said that I think you are reacting to something that might be different in other localities. And yeah, you could find activist organization that will say just about anything, including that the moon in made of cheese. not saying that some are not legit, I am just saying, that argument doesn't sway me.

Our technology labor market shows all the signs of a glut and has for years. You are not the one I am concerned with convincing, although it is good to get the word out when opportunity arises in public places like this. I'm tired of companies claiming a shortage when the Programmers Guild goes back and sees how few ads they ran when they claimed they were looking high and low for Americans. I'm tired of seeing confirmation that so many of the ads we saw when job hunting were indeed fake - posted by companies who'd already filled the post with a foreign worker. I'm also tired of people giving too much credit to rank and celebrity status - if Bill Gates says there's a shortage, they think, who am I to contract him? You can have a bleacher seat to watch globalism in action here, one of the shortage-shouting companies is throwing their [American] people out the door right now: go to allianceibm.org and put this after the slash: jobcutstatusandcomments.php

#25: SS: I agree, the United States as a nation has a lot to its credit as far as building its economy goes. What I was refering to is its world-image. Just as India's image of an over-populated, poor, hungry nation took time changing into that of a tech-hub, it will take some political diplomacy on part of the US to mend its international image. Until then this cartoon will remain just a humorous take on the current impressions of the US and not a racist slur or insult. People who see it, I hope, won't immediately conclude that all Americans routinely fart, burp, eat pizza and are lazy slobs. Besides, it is hardly insulting to portray a powerful nation as a smug hare and a developing one as a slow and steady turtle. If I remember the story correctly, the hare was just smug/ proud/ over-confident (not dictatorial, lazy etc). Several stand-up comedians are guilty of a lot worse when it comes to racial stereotyping. This of course is my opinion. It could very well be that I have been exposed to the kind of racism that could make this cartoon seem more harmless than it really is :)

This stereotype of Americans is actually widespread. Go over to immigrationvoice dot org and do a search on 'alipac' and 'betsy' to see what I mean. Also, anytime Information Week or Computer World or Business Week online post an H-1B article and people comment. Sooner or later some put-down artists show up to explain to Americans how unworthy they are to be employed in their own country. The stereotype of us centers on food, age, slowness, and dumbness. Never mind how much of IT was invented here before the waves of guestworkers ever showed up.

Deepti wrote:
"...the views of billions of Indians."

Wow, billions of us, eh?
Talk about an inflated opinion. ;P

"The stereotype of us centers on food, age, slowness, and dumbness."

Managers--and politicians--don't really mean "smart" when they say "smart."

When was the last time, when a manager said "he's a smart programmer" they meant he was smart. Not "book-smart" or "a good coder" but actually smart, in the "advisable way to live your life" sense.

So when these same managers say Indian programmers are smart, it needs to be taken with the same grain of salt. "Smart" is almost an insult in the United States--it means "he's hopeless lost and confused, unlikely to succeed, so I must mention his intelligence so you can distiguish him from the janitor."

They mean that Indian programmers--and all programmers--are smart, in that sense.

They mean that Indian programmers are smart, but incapable of seeing that they aren't going to get a good life here in the US--they're here to be used and abused--they are not here for their brainpower.

And they mean American programmers are smart, but too stupid to Unionize or lobby congress.

Lets just add a little to the cartoon.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2007/db20070621_912042.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_businessweek+exclusives

nix, blowhards like Deepti don't represent all Indians, although I agree with you that they represent a repugnant group amongst Indians.

And that's why it's important that Indians like myself differentiate ourselves from the repugnant people like Deepti, who want to treat other nations like hotels.

I personally don't feel a nation is a hotel, and that immigration and entry are a privilege, not a right to be haughtily demanded by cranky people like her.

Yes, unfortunately there are Deeptis in this world, and we're all forced to put up with their obnoxious personalities. Some people just can't learn, and they don't have any self-awareness.

Eventually, the Deeptis of the world will have the door slammed in their faces enough times that they'll eventually figure out how important civic duty and civic acceptance are, and how the temptingly easy reflex of clamourous whining just don't automatically generate credibility with others.

Meanwhile, there are many immigrants who are grateful for the chance to work in the USA, and who appreciate its rights, freedoms and values. Many of them are simply trying to get away from societies controlled by the Deepti types.

Neat, shylock, your whitey ass-licking will be well-appreciated.(#39)

Thanks AnalArch, but the point wasn't whitey ass-licking (Indian pope-worshippers and Indian Stalin-worshippers handle that dept).

The point was to emphasize values. Immigration is not a right but a privilege, and it should be based on merit and contribution to the host country.

wow, thanks Sanjay and Anarch, for taking what was a perfectly good dialog about something important and debasing it and turning it into an immature mudslinging and namecalling playground fight! nice job!

smallsquirrel, I give as good as I get, but it seems to me that the premise of this cartoon was name-calling. You're also clearly missing out on what I said about immigration being a privilege and not a right.

Interesting cartoon. One of the after effects of reducing H-1 B visas, early 2000s is a corresponding increase in mid-sized cars being bought in Bangalore.

Secondly, a reduction in the number of H-1Bs and a consequent slowdown in the IT services space should hopefully divert some of our best talent from mundane coding activties to shop floor jobs in large manufacturing companies.

rgds

Sanjay, if you read my reply to the above arguments you would realize that all I did was show that life in the US is not a cake walk for immigrants but one put together by sweat and toil.

But as usual your intense hatred against me made your comment hilariously rancid.

Deepti, your typical comments are the epitome of rancid, as was this cartoon. The fact is that immigration is a privilege and not a right. It has to be based on merit and on contribution to the host country, which are facts that you keep refusing to acknowledge or address.

These worthless immigrants who go to Berkeley or Columbia so that they can become activists to shake their fists at "The Man" are exactly the kind of people who are anti-ambassadors for India. They only cultivate anger and hatred towards India and Indians.

Indian companies are now hiring intensely in the US, btw. So it's not all about Indians queuing up for visas or sucking jobs back to India. But you won't mention these points, because you don't like employers anyway. They're all just part of the big "capitalist yoke" in your opinion.

Deepti, your typical comments are the epitome of rancid, as was this cartoon. The fact is that immigration is a privilege and not a right. It has to be based on merit and on contribution to the host country, which are facts that you keep refusing to acknowledge or address.

These worthless immigrants who go to Berkeley or Columbia so that they can become activists to shake their fists at "The Man" are exactly the kind of people who are anti-ambassadors for India. They only cultivate anger and hatred towards India and Indians.

Indian companies are now hiring intensely in the US, btw. So it's not all about Indians queuing up for visas or sucking jobs back to India. But you won't mention these points, because you don't like employers anyway. They're all just part of the big "capitalist yoke" in your opinion.

Sanjay read my comments again. My response is to those who want H1 visas for techies to be revoked.

By licking the balls of those who kick you in the ass (and I mean those resent are presence in the US) all you are proving is that Indians are no more than docile lap dogs who will come back no matter how many times they are kicked. You people give the impression of us being 'docile immigrants' as the fellow 'Mari' called us. Its downright shameful.

And don't give me the shit about privileges and rights, these Visas are given for business purposes. The companies that we work for tend to profit from our labor. So cut your ass licking bull shit!


Your comments reek of racism as it - calling people 'whitey' itself shows how racist your thinking is.

Sorry buddy! but having tangled with you previously I know for a fact that even a baboon can and does hold a far more rational and civilized conversation than you do.

And try not engaging me on the other thread, it reflects a unhealthy stalking attention whoring habit that you seem to quite good at.

Deepti, the fact is that H1-Bs are used to serve economic needs. The removal of H1-Bs won't make those economic needs go away. It'll simply result in more jobs being shifted overseas, to service providers in India. How Americans choose to see their economic needs solved is upto them. My saying that has nothing to do with ball-licking.

The fact is that you can't defy gravity. Economic opportunity will flow to those who provide the most value. If Indians are providing more value, then opportunity will flow to them by compulsion of market physics, and no legislation or internet flame-wars can stop that.

Indian economic growth is more than capable of absorbing any H1-B rejects back home, and it will in fact help to address the problem with wage inflation.

The fact is that those whom you are debating with here are white left-wingers, and you refuse to recognize that. It's the American Left who are screaming against H1-B visas, and not the Right. Conservatives believe in free enterprise and market choice, whereas the White Left are the ones who will greedily cling to jobs without caring about merit.

So now do you see how Lefties are ultimately not your friend?

Sanjay, have you read my comments? Seriously? It seems you are talking to yourself. No where have I said that I am against H1 visas , nor have I touted 'Protectionism'. Re-read my comments or else you are clearly wasting both our time.

Corporations are not for their employees - they are all about profit maximization. If layoff make them richer than so be it, today the Americans techies are being laid off, tomorrow it will be our turn.

They are like parasites. To be naive and think that the company will 'take care of you' because of your abilities is being deluded and ironically 'socialistic'.

The color of your skin and nationality is immaterial. If laying you off or not giving you that 'Green Card' that got you to stick around in the US on the H1 in the first place makes sense they will take that carrot away without batting an eyelid.

Thats what you need to understand.

Its time you took off your rosy shades and realized that when it comes to globalization nationalities don't matter only profit margins do and thats the reality we have to live with.

Which is why to beat up the immigrant techie laborer who took away the 'American job' makes no sense.

BTW, we are talking about techies here- our biggest nemesis is China. Do you think for one minute Infosys or Wipro will not hire more English Speaking Chinese if they are cheaper than their Indian counterparts? Don't put the Indian corporations up on a pedestal. They are no different!

And BTW in one of my comments I did talk about Americans working in India and inviting them here with open arms. But I doubt you read that either just as you didn't read the comment where I talked about off shoring techies having a hard life.

For one, the American Right Wing used to be ok with H-1B and other visas, until the visas started eating into the prosperity of the white collar middle class. Now, even Tom Tancredo and Eagle Forum hate the visas and often include them in discussions of illegal immigration.

Second visas and offshoring are not either-or choices. Guestworker visas are often step one in a process that eventually offshores the job. They often provide on-the-job training to foreigners, until the work can be carted back to India or China. So, they are seen as a threat for that reason.

Finally, I would love to know more about where Indian stereotypes of US workers come from. I've been encountering this since 2001. Seeing us assured that we couldn't possibly handle IT work (the country that pretty much invented the field), that our workers are less educated than Indan workers (I hold a graduate degree - and not from a diploma mill, and so do many of the IT pros I work with), and that our educations were no good (the ones who came to our universities apparently didn't notice how many of us were also attending). To keep running into this sentiment suggests that it is being promoted within Asian culture somehow, probably not in English or we would have found it already. The 35=10 rule. The idea someone suggested to Ross Perot, jr. that your brains work differently and are better with logic - where is this coming from, I wonder?

Sourceplease, that perception is not common or rather, is exceedingly rare. I do know that the Indian education is very competitive but given to rote learning rather than original thought, which is part of what makes many Indian programmers (and pizza boys) not very good at thinking out of the box. One possible reason behind the perception, for those who hold it might stem from their interactions with American IT types in the companies they work with - these are not your Google or Microsoft high-fliers, but more likely just people trained on older technologies and business processes holding down a job and not quite savvy about technology/market trends, as opposed to the fresh, relatively more tech-savvy software engineers who interact with them.

For that matter, many of the American counterparts forget that the software engineers are just doing their own job and have little to do or care about the larger global/trade/offshoring issues here. To borrow a Marxian concept and be sure to rile Sanjay, the global brotherhood of the proletariat/working class is turned against one another and the only real beneficiaries are the business owners That's not true, of course, lower costs of implementing software make the US and other companies better able to compete in the global marketplace and deliver better products at lower prices and higher margins, or so the theory goes.

I've rambled on enough, and should really write an article or two myself about outsourcing/offshoring from the inside - anyone is welcome, of course, to sign up as a Desicritic and write about their own views on the topic.

if Americans are so lazy then why do we get less vacation time and take even fewer vacations than just about any other developed nation?

Aaman, you make it sound like all business owners are big tycoons. Even small businesses, including real estate agents, are able to take advantage of offshoring, hiring phone answering services and secretaries at much lower cost. Because you're a Lefty, you see all business-people and employers as elite bourgeois tycoons. They're just people who have a work ethic, unlike you.

Sourceplease, you're just setting up a false straw-man argument, claiming that Indians view American education to be inferior. Shows how little you know -- plenty of Indians flock to the United States for its education system, or send their kids to it. I've never heard of any Indian regarding American education as inferior. That's just your own fallacy. As far as your contention that you have a good degree from a good school, I'll say that the business world is increasingly more interested in what you can do, rather than merely what papers you can flash them. IT in particular is always a rapidly-changing field, and being proficient in something useful today, doesn't mean that it will be useful tomorrow. I work in IT, but I don't consider it to be a stable enough career to bank on for the long term.

Wait until electric vehicles start coming out. Then your anger will be drowned out by the roar of all the experienced auto mechanics who find their skills suddenly less in demand, since electric motors and their solid state components tend to break down less, and require less maintenance.
("Whaddya mean piston engines are being outlawed? Tom Tancredo sez this Global Warming crap is just a bunch of crap being spewed out by greedy corporations!")

aman, you make it sound like all business owners are big tycoons. Even small businesses, including real estate agents, are able to take advantage of offshoring, hiring phone answering services and secretaries at much lower cost. Because you're a Lefty, you see all business-people and employers as elite bourgeois tycoons. They're just people who have a work ethic, unlike you


Sanjay, when you lack content you make it up with name calling as usual. Force of habit?

Even when your 'small businesses' turn to off shoring they do it to increase their profit margins not because they can't find some clever American college goer to take their calls .

It is all about business and nothing personal as they say when they lay off their employees. Which is also why your contention that anyone who talks about the nature of off shoring lacks 'work ethic' is as down right illogical and stupid!

The entire offshoring modal is based on 'profit maximization' There is no way one can skirt around that issue!

Profit maximization and savings maximization are all relative. There's no sin in it. If you make a long distance call at night when it's cheaper, instead of making it during the peak daylight hours, then is it a sin? If you buy gas when it's cheaper and not when it's more expensive, is it a sin? Stop creating a fake argument, as is your habit.

As Aaman said - That's not true, of course, lower costs of implementing software make the US and other companies better able to compete in the global marketplace and deliver better products at lower prices and higher margins, or so the theory goes.

Who is denying it? It is Capitalism at its best where quality is provided at cheap pricing. We aren't discussing the highs of Globalization but its ugly underbelly that you are averting your eyes to and unable to refute.

Which ugly underbelly are you referring to? All your quote did was to confirm what I said, and made no mention of what you consider to be the ugly underbelly. How typical of you.

The ugly underbelly I'm seeing from you is that you're demanding H1-Bs as some right that is owed to you, when it's upto the host country to decide whether to offer them. Withdrawal of the H1-B won't make those economic needs go away of course, and will either switch them to offshoring, or else generate price increases across the board that will ultimately hit the consumer's pocketbook.

I work in IT, but I don't consider it to be a stable enough career to bank on for the long term.

You just fucked your own argument Sanjay! You agreed for a fact that thanks to Globalization you job in the IT sector is not secure. And yet you huff and puff when Aaman and I point out the same thing?

Me thinks you 'blowhard' out of malicious anger and not reason.

A right? Where did I say that? You don't have an argument left after its been dismantled bit by bit and the last hit was done by you yourself. Time and time again you make false assumptions about people to suit your purpose . Kindly show me where I called it A RIGHT!!! Its a business necessity that drives the offshoring modal and meets certain needs in other fields like in the medical department.

I was discussing the H1 is in the IT sector.

Re-read the entire thread. Consumer pockets? With the dollar falling the IT industries in India are scared that their profits will diminish over time. Don't give the Walmart argument. We aren't discussing materialism but the insecurity of holding down a job whether it be in America and may soon be India that yourself fear may soon happen to your career.

So cut down your pseudo bull shit!

That's not the argument I made, Deepti. My argument was that H1-B visas are not some obligatory right to be demanded. And besides, India is suffering from a spiralling wage increase, due to brain drain to the USA. Besides, with those workers then spending their time and money in India, then they'll be benefiting the local Indian economy.

Sanjay- who is demanding it as an Obligatory Right? Not me! So point out where I said it! They can hire people from Timbuktu thats their right!

My response was to Babes who thinks that we IT H1 holders are taking their 'bread and butter' away. And I was saying that it isn't all rock and roll for us either. That where you stepped in and said that I said H1 visas are a 'right'

Ring a bell? You stepped into an argument where I was talking about the insecurity and hoops we have to jump in the Tech industry and in the end you yourself that that job security in Tech industry is nill.

Come On! Its just a cartoon.

How did we react when Muslims around the world took up arms when Mohammed Cartoons were published?

What was our response? 'Oh! They are just cartoons'

Grow up!

According to Western legal concepts, slander, libel, and defamatory speach is that which has the potential to harm the reputation or ability to earn a living or live peacefully in a community. Therefore, you can't harm the dead by speaking ill of them, and you can't harm a Deity, but you can cause harm to ordinary living people by damaging their reputations and causing them to be viewed with contempt. Repeating the defamation of others is also defamation. As such, these sorts of things are considered to be actionable civil torts in the West.

Mari does that mean we Indians should be offended with the Family Guy makers for showing India as a cholera ridden country or Appu in Simpson?

Where does one draw the line between political correctness and comedy? If for every little racial joke we go up in arms then one will have to start with Seinfeld where they cracked so many jewish jokes or grab Bill Mahers for cracking jokes about Muslims all the time!

Don't huff and puff so much over a toon. When we accepted Appu with his brood of kids and dotted wife why is it so tough for you to accept a Farting American Rabbit?

Its a clear case of demanding freedom of Speech from the world but having a thin skin when the joke is on you.

You may be offended if you wish - in America, minorities are NOT shy about protesting when they feel offensively stereotyped. Here the issue is that over the past 6 years hundreds of thousands of foreign workers have been imported to address some fictional 'shortage' while hundreds of thousands of highly skilled and educated American workers were let go to make room for them. There were more suicides than Kevin Flanagan, and the suffering was so great that our students are shying away from computer-related educational programs.

Mari, I am not offended - why should I be? We Indians are quite used to being ridiculed or patronized by Westerners all the time.

Post 9/11 many of us have been abused, beaten and one Sikh gentleman was killed in Boston and even now many browns hate flying in US.

The minorities do not feel safe in the US, we don't even talk against American politicians in public fearing that some random dude sitting at the next table might call us in as terrorists or taking some snaps of the Golden Gate Bridge might have us hauled in? so who would have the cojones to protest?

The democrats and republicans eye us all with suspicion for terrorism and resentment of the offshoring. But that probably didn't even feature in your radar- why would you empathize with a brown or care what happens to him in your country?

Is it fair for the US to demand Globalization when it suits their purpose? We were given aid only on the condition that we open our markets.

And now that you are finally feeling the competition due to your own much touted system you say - unfair!

Back in the nineties in India during the transition a lot of government manufacturing units were shut down. Hundreds of workers lost their jobs, many committed suicide, many didn't know how to feed their families.

Who took care of them? Did the American hearts bleed for them?

Mari, what you are feeling has been done to you by- Capitalism, your own politicians- democrats and republicans, the fat pigs sitting in Wall Street and your corporations.Why take it out on us? We are as fungible as you are.

anjali... you've really taken everything to the absolute extreme there, haven't you? You make it sound as if every american is racist, every minority in the US is terrorized and unable to live their lives, and that the US is the center of all that is bad in the universe. is that how you really feel or were you using hyperbole to try to prove a point?

mari.. I have already told you that I do not agree with you, so... still... not agreeing.