OPINION

War on Israel's Gaza Front - Repeating The Past

May 22, 2007
Ruvy

Ma'aleh Levona, Israel

It appears that once again open hostilities have broken out between Israel's military forces and the reinforced Hamas terrorists based in the Gaza Strip in southwestern Israel. It is not as if Hamas had ever ceased attacking the country. Almost as soon as Israeli military forces withdrew from the Gaza Strip in September, 2005, Qassam rockets no longer fell on the villages of the abandoned Gush Qatif, the sacrificial offering made for the sake of peace; they fell instead on S'derot, with missiles also aimed at Ashkelon, where about one third of the country's electricity is produced.

Upon reflection, while Ashkelon will be a target, it is apparent that rockets will not attempt to hit the Ashkelon electric plant - crippling that plant will cut off the Gaza grid as well. Unless the Hamas leaders in Gaza are far stupider than I give them credit for, they themselves will not cut off their own electric supply. Benyamin Netanyahu, prime minister from 1996 to 1998, called for cutting off electricity and water to Gaza a few days ago, but the gutless fools in office will not pursue this route. Their masters in Washington would not approve.

There have been a number of Arab casualties of this conflict over the few days or so that raids have taken place from Israel, and one woman, Shirel Feldman, z"l, of S'derot, was killed last night when a rocket found her car and blew it up with her in it.

It is relatively clear to this writer that the IDF is not at all prepared for this conflict. Many of the reasons for this were given me in confidence, and they are structural in nature. Beyond that I'm not at liberty to go into specifics. But the Egyptian army facing us in 1948 was in similar condition, and describing it will not breach security. In a sentence, it's officers were over-funded while the soldiers on the field were under-supplied.

These conclusions were confirmed in whispered discussions near Government Hill Sunday with a man whose son had been sent to the Gaza front. He said, "My son is near Gaza. You know when he got to his base, there were no supplies; no bullets, no artillery shells, barely any rifles, no underwear, no food, no water – nothing.” When standing guard at the village gate a couple of months ago, a young kid was telling me of his experiences in Lebanon last year; what the man talking to me about on Sunday was describing was the exact same logistical nightmare we faced in last year’s war with (it really hurts to type this) HizbAllah.

Hamas, by contrast, has learned from the conflict in 2006. When HizbAllah blanketed northern Israel with Katyusha rockets, the government ran away and the residents, deserted by its corrupt timeservers, fled themselves. They fled to Tel Aviv, then to Jerusalem, Eilat, Modi'in, and to the interior of the country, to places like Efrat, Ariel, Ofra, and this village that I write from.

Given that the goal of Hamas is to eradicate Israel from the map, one of the points they need to cover is depriving Jews of a refuge from their attacks. So, they have decided to extend rocket attacks to Judea and Samaria. This will effectively cut off Judea and Samaria as a refuge, as well as to deprive the country of the strategic depth it needs to defend itself.

At this point, it appears that Israel's government will restrict itself to pin-point attacks, tank incursions and targetted killings. Needless to say, this will not stop the Qassams flying over our country. What is not mentioned in the press is the possibilitry of HizbAllah deciding to join in the fray, attacking Israel much as a vulture picks the eyes out of a sick animal in the desert. We have the ability to end all this nonsense very quickly. We have nuclear missiles that we can use to destroy the main bases of our enemies, like Damascus, Teheran, and Riyadh, and the Aswan High Dam (to prevent Egypt from ever threatening this country again) but using these missiles will not solve the immediate problems of under-supply or give our soldiers the ability to destroy the Hamas bases in Gaza, or the HizbAllah bases in Lebanon. Using nukes there is just not wise policy. Ironically, the American demands on the criminal régime (calling it a government is a travesty in using English, and an insult to the actual functioning governments in the world) in Jerusalem to avoid infrastructure damage and civilian casualties may save its butt in the short run.

But only in the short run.

So the immediate threats will remain, potential knives in the back for Ehud Olmert and his crew of clowns, including the eminence grise behind it all, Shim'on Peres. And reservists, if again treated as they were last year, may arise and ditch the idiots and perhaps even wield those knives. One can be an incompetent restaurant manager and get away with it, or be an incompetent bureaucrat and get away with it, but being an incompetent military commander can bring swift justice at the hands of soldiers who will have felt stabbed in the back as though by a traitor.

When I stopped being the bagel and lox Jew I had been all my life and came to actually believe in G-d, I realized that the day would arrive when our military would not be enough to withstand the murderous onslaughts of our enemies, and that we would have to call on the help of the Almighty to succeed in battle.

That day appears to have arrived. But the situation may have to get a lot worse before leaders arise who will humble themselves before the L-rd. One can only pray.

Ruvy, born in New York, moved to Minnesota where he managed a Burger King and wrote stories. In addition to writing for Blogcritics Magazine, he is editor for the Root & Branch Information Service. Formerly living in Jerusalem, he lives with his family in Ma'alé Levoná where he is a freelance editor and writer.
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#1
Shaan Khan
URL
May 22, 2007
09:42 AM

The last I checked, it is Israel who is occupying Palestinian land. It is Israel who is stealing land, water and dignity. It is Israel who is oppressing.

As the well known US journalist, Chris Hedges, recently pointed out, the only difference between apartheid and the Palestinian occupation is that South Africa resisted from using cutting edges planes and missiles against the native Africans.

In the mind of all freedom loving people all over the world (all religions and all nationalities) Palestinians have a right to resist and a right to self defense. OR WHY DON'T YOU GIVE THEM FULL CITIZENSHIP. Give them equal rights, equal water, equal jobs, equal justice, equal access to state funds.

#2
Amrita
URL
May 22, 2007
10:07 AM

Shaan, i think you've got two things mixed up: there're non Jewish Arabs in Israel who can't get citizenship and then there are Palestines.

The Palestinians don't want full citizenship, they want their own state. The non-Jewish Arabs want full citizenship.

Have I got it right, Ruvy?

#3
Sanam
May 22, 2007
10:46 AM

@Amrita,

Yes, Palestinians want a separate state.

#4
Ruvy in Jerusalem
May 22, 2007
11:33 AM

Amrita,

"...there're non Jewish Arabs in Israel who can't get citizenship and then there are Palestines.

The Palestinians don't want full citizenship, they want their own state. The non-Jewish Arabs want full citizenship."


You're close, but not quite there.

There are Arabs in Israel who are full citizens with the right to vote, etc. etc. who are generally discriminated against. There are Arabs living in what used to be Jordan-occupied Israel who want either full citizenship in Jordan, full citizenship in Israel or full citizenship in an Arab entity. The key point is that they want full citizenship somewhere.

Israel is a secular "Jewish" state, much as is India is a secular "Hindu" state. Both countries have large minorities who are neither Jewish nor Hindu respectively. To put yourself in our shoes, imagine Pakistan being occupied by Indian forces - but this "Pakistan" would have about 700,000,000 people living in it. Annexing it to India would end the "Hindu" civil society as it now exists.

This is the conundrum faced here.

The result is that many Arabs who are citizens of Israel would like to be citizens of an Arab state - but no Arab state will have them and they know what kind of hell the Arabs in Judaea, Samaria and Gaza are coping with, and it is something they do not want.

There is a small minority of Arabs (both citizens and non-citizens) who want to destroy Israel altogether, and they are the ones with power amongst the Arabs in Gaza, Judaea and Samaria. The Arabs in Israel would like to have solidarity with those in Gaza, Judaea and Samaria, but the reality is that they are more Israeli than not, and richer, and the Arabs in Gaza, Judaea and Samaria resent them.

#5
Shaan Khan
URL
May 22, 2007
07:29 PM

India is a secular country (Period). Yes the majority are Hindus. But state funds and resources are not intentionally denied to Non-Hindus. Moreover Non-Hindus from anywhere in the world can immigrate to India and after meeting requirements can become citizens of India. There is no restriction against Non-Hindus in India. True things are not as perfect as they need to be, but there is no where in the world where things are perfect. Keep in mind that in India, the best ever star actor is a Muslim. Amongst the richest people are some Muslims too.

Hence please do not compare a rouge state like Israel to India. Israel does not recognize the rights of anyone who is not a Jew. Non Jews get no benefit from the state. Non Jews cannot immigrate to Israel. Indians in Israel are in local slang referred as monkeys.

My friend as Dr King ( A Gandhi like figure in USA) said,

"I cannot be what I ought to be till you are not what you ought to be

You cannot be what you ought to be till I am not what I ought to be"

In simple terms what Dr King said was that till you don't guarantee peace and stability to the Palestinians, you will never have peace and stability of your own.

Common sense says and the world agrees that you have two choices i) Give Palestinians their own country as per UN sanctions; ii) Keep the country as one but give Palestinians full citizenship. Unfortunately you want to do neither. Israel just wants to kill every Palestinian Man, Woman, Children. Israel wants to eat its cake and wants to have it too.






#6
Shaan Khan
URL
May 22, 2007
07:37 PM

Amrita

Given a choice, Palestinians (Muslims and Christians) will consider either a state or a citizenship.

Today, a Palestinian in Israel is even denied drinking water for his family while an Israeli occupier can have all the water to water their lawns. Ask yourself if you lived in such conditions where in your own land you cannot use its resorces, while the occupiers have all benefits, what will you do.



#7
Shaan Khan
URL
May 23, 2007
10:40 AM

Ruvy in Jerusalem

Before Isarel was formed, the Zionist movement around the world kept repeating the mantra, "Palestine, a land without people, for people without land". Of course initially the Zionists wanted South America, which was considered too valuable to give away. The world offered Africa, which was considered not desirable. Palestine was just a compromise. It was secured on the basis of a "lie" that it was a barren abandoned land with no people. Further more, as per all the latest studies at US universities, Israel was formed in order to prevent the USSR (former Russia) to take over the Middle East.

Today we well know that "Palestine, a land without people, for people without land" was a lie because had it truly been a land without people we would not have any Palestinian problem. In fact the Palestinian population is so high that they are threatening (sick sick sick) to change the character of Israeli society.

My question to you is whether as a human you feel the pain that the Palestinian suffer on a daily basis ? Also whether you feel guilty at all ? This dialogue is just something between two humans (You and I). We may not be able to change the oppressive and evil policy of Israel towards Palestinians, but atleast as humans we should explore all efforts to reach out and say that ethnic cleansing is wrong. Murder of innocent Men, Women and Children is wrong. Even the Tohrah holds "murder" as a grave unpardonable sin. Hence please share your thoughts on the pain of the Palestinians. Tell me when you pray, do you ever pray for the safety and security of the Palestinians ?

#8
Shaan Khan
URL
May 23, 2007
07:20 PM


Israeli soldiers and Jewish settlers committed "serious human rights abuses" against the Palestinians in 2006, mostly with impunity, Amnesty International said in its annual report issued Wednesday May 23, 2007.


During the 34-day Lebanon conflict last summer "both Hezbollah and Israel committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, including war crimes," said the report.

"In particular Israeli forces carried out indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks on a large scale."

"Israeli forces also appear to have carried out direct attacks on civilian infrastructure intended to inflict a form of collective punishment on Lebanon's people."

"Its attacks also violated other rules of international humanitarian law, including the prohibition on reprisal attacks on the civilian population."

In the Palestinian territories, Israeli air and artillery strikes killed some 650 people, half of them unarmed civilians and including some 120 children, "a three-fold increase compared with 2005."

"Israeli soldiers and settlers committed serious human rights abuses, including unlawful killings, against Palestinians, mostly with impunity," said the Amnesty report.

The Israeli justice system continued to show wide discrepancies, with harsh responses against Palestinians suspected of attacks on Israelis, and lenient or no measures against Israeli soldiers and settlers accused of unlawful killings and abuse of Palestinians.

"Military blockades and increased restrictions imposed by Israel on the movement of Palestinians and the confiscation by Israel of Palestinian custom duties caused a significant deterioration in living conditions for Palestinian inhabitants of the occupied territories, with poverty, food aid dependency, health problems and unemployment reaching crisis levels."

Israel began withholding custom duties collected on behalf of the Palestinian Authority after Hamas, which it considers a terror group, came to power.


Copyright AFP 2005, AFP stories and photos shall not be published, broadcast, rewritten for broadcast or publication or redistributed directly or indirectly in any medium

#9
Ruvy in Jerusalem
May 24, 2007
01:57 AM

Shaan,

"India is a secular country (Period)?"

Yeah? Tell me another one. You got a bridge to sell, maybe?

Let's get this straight. With a 90% majority of Christians, the United States is a "Christian" secular country, with an 80% majority of Hindus, India is a "Hindu" secular country, and with an 80% Jewish majority, Israel is a "Jewish" secular country. Those are cultural realities reflected in the articles here and at Blogcritics Magazine.

"please do not compare a rouge state like Israel to India."

That kind of arrogance from you will only get you reminders from me about how communal riots continually wrack your overcrowded nation, in addition to its terrible corruption, starvation, poverty.

I'm being polite...

A non-Jew can immigrate to this country, and similar to the United States, receive citizenship here after a number of years. ALL CITIZENS have the right to vote in elections and are covered by the Israel Human Rights Bill. The government has a universal health care system, and a social security system that pays in addition to pensions and workmen's comp, payments for the families of the damned terrorists who kill our children - yes, payments to Arabs whose relatives are guilty of murder!

In addition, this nation has, in 59 years, climbed from being a country full of starving refugees to having a standard of living approximating that of Italy, with the second highest number of startups, an advanced computer net with the largest number of households owning a home computer. All this in addition to the burden of fighting five wars for survival, building a nuclear arsenal, and running a world class university system that educates, among others, thousands of Indians.

I would remind you that YOUR government is buying OUR armaments. Don't get into a pissing contest you can't win.

That's first of all.

Second of all - if I want to nurse one elephant sized grudge against the Arabs who live here and their leaders, I have a right to. Any Jew does, particularly one who directly lost relatives to Hitler's death ovens.

It was a Gaza hate-filled rabble rouser, Amin Husseini, an asshole who gave himself the title Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who caused the massacre of the centuries-old Jewish community in Hebron in 1929, caused innumerable attacks against Jews in this country, when these self same Jews, by bringing business opportunities to the nation were providing opportunities for Arabs to raise themselves out of their stinking hovels in Syria and Iraq. Arabs came over the borders to find work here in the 1920's 1930's and 1940's , encouraged by the British to do so.

This very same rabble rouser went to Berlin to kiss Hitler's ass, went and organized a Nazi rebellion in Iraq, and when he failed, ran back to Berlin, gave Hitler the name Abu Amar, encouraged him to set up death camps to kill Jews, organized the Hadzsar Division of Moslem SS soldiers in Europe which killed Serbs and Jews. After WWII, this bastard escaped to Cairo with the help of the French, where he trained a successor - a sexual pervert known as Yassir Arafat. Arafat took on the name Abu Amar to let the South Syrian Arabs he was eventually to swindle know that he wanted to finish Hitler's work.

LET'S RUB YOUR NOSE IN THIS FACT. AMIN HUSSEINI ENCOURAGED HITLER TO BUILD DEATH CAMPS IN EUROPE TO EXTERMINATE JEWS, AND TRAINED A SUCCESSOR TO EXTERMINATE JEWS. ANYONE WHO FOLLOWED THIS BASTARD DOES NOT DESERVE A SINGLE SQUARE METER IN MY HOLY COUNTRY. HE'S LUCKY TO BE ALLOWED TO LIVE. HE'S WORSE THAN THE WILD PIGS THAT ROAM THIS COUNTRY - HE'S WORSE THAN THE TRASH THEY EAT.

If, in the end, Arabs, are allowed to remain here, it is because they have repented of their hatred. repented of their satanic beliefs, asked forgiveness of the G-d of Israel, and have declared themselves Children of Noah willing to follow the Seven Noahide Laws and recognize G-D's sovereignty over this land, a land he gave, even according to the Quran, to MY people. Until then, there will be war. And in the end, we will win that war, albeit at a terrible price.

I do not recognize the legitimacy of any international organization to come here to judge us. When my people were in need the world turned its back and shut its doors. The world has no moral standing to judge us - PERIOD. That includes "Amnesty" International, Médécins sans Fronières, OXFAM, Greenpeace, the International Red Cross, and especially, most especially, the United Nations.

Now as two humans having a dialogue, can you understand is that the regime in Jerusalem is a criminal regime who leaders have already earned themselves the hangman's rope for treason? Can you understand that their betrayal not only includes Arabs who thought that thy might have a sovereign piece of land, and instead were put under a criminal mafia (the PA), but also that of Jews who did their level best to build lives and have been driven out of their homes for no good reason? Can you feel the pain of divorces, drug abuse, child abuse and criminality, all brought about because a government robbed 10,000 Jews of their homes and livelihoods?

You do not a responsibility to improve this land. I do. IN SPITE OF WHAT THEY HAVE DONE, I'm willing to try to sit down with my neighbors down the hill to work out differences that we may have and see how we can utilize this good land for our further benefit.

But if these Arabs will not reject the satanic beliefs they follow, then we will be forced to defend ourselves against them.

And with G-d's help, we'll live to to see the day of victory, the day that G-d's House of Splendor is built on His Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

#10
null
URL
May 24, 2007
02:41 AM

Yeah just like that Husseini was a great leader of the palestinian cause unlike the Irgun gang and others like robber baron pirate one eyed Menachim Begin or that Golda Meir

#11
Ruvy in Jerusalem
May 24, 2007
03:46 AM

Null, don't embarrass yourself. MenaHem Begin had two (very bad) eyes - and he was the head of Etz"el - which you mistakenly call the Irgun. The one eyed fellow - he lost his eye fighting the Vichy regime in Syria - was named Moshe Dayan. History will not be kind to him. We owe him most of the problems we face today; he was the one who spit in G-d's Face in 1967. But that is another article, one that is not quite ready.

By the way, if you want to know who was actually a Palestinian, Moshe Dayan was a Palestinian. It said so on his dog tag. Only Jews accepted the title "Palestinian" - the Arabs rejected it - until Husseini's blow-by, Arafat, sold them the brand name in the mid-sixties.

#12
Shaan Khan
URL
May 24, 2007
07:51 AM

Ruvy:

Whatever happened to all your God talk and prayers etc. Suddenly the evil Ruvy emerges, the one filled with lies, deception and hate.

So now you not only hate the Palestinians (Muslim & Christians) but also Indians ? Let me repeat, India is a secular country and so is USA. The majority does set the agenda and a true democracy reflects the wishes of the majority, nonetheless we have genuine courts (not monkey courts like in Israel) that guard the constitution and the minorities. I have always claimed that no place is perfect and given the size of India and USA complications are acceptable. Nonetheless on paper and for all practical purposes both India and USA are secular & democratic countries. We do not buy into your justification of hate and murder. I will not allow your hatred for anything not orthodox Jewish negatively define my country of birth (i.e India) and my country of citizenship (i.e. USA).

I guess since your previous post did not say anything, you are trying to run away from the fact that Israel was built on a lie, "Palestine a land without people, for people without land". But since your strategy of lies is now visible we cannot accept further lies, or shall we say "facts according to Israel & Ruvy".

How come UN and Amnesty become all important when Israel wants to murder and plunder its neighbors, and not important when there are existing resolutions against Israel ? The countless resolutions against Israel at UN are a public record (something you cannot deny) and so is Amnesty International's reports (year after year). Hopefully you understand why the world think of Israel as a rouge country and why all poll all over the world see Israel as a threat to the world peace.

My friend any fool knows that bad relation with neighborers makes life miserable. You poisoned your neighborhoods. Killed, as in assassinated, their moderate leaders. Destroyed their infra structure. Till you don't rebuild that trust you will always be miserable.

BTW the cold war is over. The need for Israel does not exist (sorry). Your economy and weapons that you build on my tax dollars will soon be held back. Soon you will have to behave. Good behavior is not optional. Oh boy Ruvy, it will be hard for you to make an honest living.

#13
Shaan Khan
URL
May 24, 2007
08:15 AM

Ruvy

BTW, in civilized society we do not say that God gave us this land. The legal title determines who owns the land. The land as per deeds belonged to the Palestinians. You stole it.

Anyway let us indulge you. Gad gave the land to the children of Abraham, both Ismael and Issac. Hence it belongs to the Palestinians as well as the Jews. But wait a minute, there was a covenant, you were required to circumcise and make an annual sacrifice. Did you not stop making the sacrifice ? Oh Oh. you broke the covenant. Hence by default the land goes to Ismael's children who still follow the covenant to the common God.

#14
Diganta
URL
May 24, 2007
08:36 AM

Donno why God is coming to the picture, but I'm fine with partition of Palestein. If both of them don't want to stay together or Jews are systematically swept out of Israel (Ottoman Turks did), it's better to be divided. The accession of Palestenian land beyond partition is illegal and I seriously think that Israel should go back to pre-1967 status.

#15
Shaan Khan
URL
May 24, 2007
10:05 AM

Diganta

It is a BS propaganda that Jews were swept out of Israel by Ottomans. The old Rome one day woke up and found the "State of Judea" (so to speak) to be very meddlesome and controlling. They found them too aggravating and not worth the benefit that they were providing (sounds familiar). Hence they crushed them.

Since that time, the Jews found refuge in what later became Muslim countries. Ruvy will not admit it but Spain under Muslim rule was a golden era for the Jews (the best time in their modern history). Even after Spain fell to the crusaders, it was the Muslim countries, Turkey, Iran, Morocco etc which gave the Jews a honorable refuge (unlike Europe where they were tormented). History says that the Muslim countries welcomed them. Today the Jews of Iran are with Ahmedinejad and do not want to leave Iran. The Jews of Morocco & Turkey likewise are very happy there. Do you know that there is a Jewish population in Saudi Arabia also ? (How come ?). Early Jewish settlers into Israel/Palestine will tell you that the Muslims were more helpful then the fellow Jews.

Nonetheless the Zionist movement (not Jews) and the State of Israel squandered all the goodwill. Today a reform Jew from USA also finds himself to be a misfit in Israel.Knowledgeable people say that History will repeat itself. The new Rome (i.e. USA) will also like the Old Rome (and for the same reasons)will one day wake up and crush Israel. Hence it is not Palestine or Iran or its neighbors (who are all collectively very weak military wise) that will one day put an end to Israel but USA itself. Israel is sucking the US tax dollars and sapping USA's energy. All the industry you see in Israel is like a charity we have been forced to provide. They are using USA like a occupied territory. Threatening our senators and our congressmen (Read Paul Findley's "They dare to speak"). We have a bad reputable today around the world thanks to Israel. Hence one day it is predicted that USA will wake up and repeat history.

Where will the people of Israel (most of whom are decent people) go ? Hence it is imperative that Israel repairs its relationship now. Good relationship with neighbors is always a plus.

Given a choice Palestinians would stay in Israel (one united country) with equal rights and equal privileges. Ofcourse Israel does not want that, neither do they want to ever give up the occupied territories. They merely want to kill every living Palestinian and them claim all the land for Israel.




#16
Ruvy in Jerusalem
May 24, 2007
06:28 PM

Honestreporting.com reports on the slanted and biased coverage of this war, and of the bombardment of S'derot by Hamas.

Particularly pertinent to this site are these comments on the BBC:

Meanwhile, British commentator Stephen Pollard comments on the BBC's coverage:

How the BBC's journalists must have missed not being able to distort the situation in Gaza over the past few months. How they must be relieved to have the opportunity once more.

Here's how its website reported the IDF strike on Gaza:

Israel resumed airstrikes on Gaza on Tuesday after a six-month lull. It followed several rocket attacks on Israel.

Several? Several?

COMPARE AND CONTRAST - BLOODSHED IN LEBANON

The current bloodshed in Lebanon has made international headlines as the Lebanese Army battles Islamic terrorists in a Palestinian refugee camp. The world's press has been generally sympathetic towards the Lebanese actions. The Associated Press has even gone as far as to use the words "terror" and "terrorists" in one of its reports. This, despite the increasing number of civilian deaths caused by both sides, including seemingly indiscriminate shelling by the Lebanese Army.
------------------------
So much for the unbiased coverage of the western media, may they burn in the lying papers they sell. The full article can be read at the link.

Given the kind of coverage Israel gets in the world media, it is no wonder that Shaan Khan panders the lies he does in his comments.

#17
Shaan Khan
URL
May 24, 2007
09:27 PM

Let us take one lie at a time.

Why don't you start with addressing "Palestine a land with no people, with people with no land". Why don't you tell us where did the Palestinians come from when the land was barren and abandoned.

Israel's lie ans deception (yes they fed USA with WMD bull also)is costing US tax payers dearly. We have a right to know.

Israel's lie is costing Palestinians lives and freedom. We have a right to know.

#18
Man singh
URL
May 25, 2007
06:14 PM

Mr Shan, your world view starts merely from 623Ad and it seems from your posts that there was no world before islam.

can you tell me how much land water and people Mohammed brought along with him dierctly from Allah? Answer is Big zero.

Therefore each and every inch of land muslims are enjoying today has been captured by muslims from non muslims including Mecca temple of Arab pagans that has been converted in to mosque today along with killing or converting each and every pagan in Arab pennisula. Can you deny that?

Jews were percecuted by Muslims and alike for last 2000 yaers and if they got the part of their rightful lands, why are you crying so much.

Since beginning of palestenian Intifada isreali war mere 6000 Arabs has been killed in total and definitely it is sad and bad. Any crime against humanity is wrong. Crimes perptrated by muslims invaders of muslim kashmiris today against hindus are equally condemnable.

But you will be surpised to know that in last 50 years muslims have killed muslims compare to non muslims killing muslims.

here is the list for your reference:

Algeria 500,000 to 1 million
Sudan 2.6 million to 3 million
Afganistan One million to one and a half million
Somalia 400,000 to 550,000
Bangladesh 1.4 million to 2 million.
Indonesia 400,000
Iraq 1.54 million to 2 million
Iran 450,000 to 970,000
Lebnon 130,000
Yemen 100,000 to 150,000
Jordon 10000 to 25000
Chad 30000
Tajikisatn 50000
Syria 20000
Turkey 20000
Zanzibar 5000 to 17000
Others 300000



The information gathered here is based on various research institutes, academic bodies, international organizations (such as Amnesty and other bodies that follow human rights), the UN, and governmental agents. any sincere seeker can cross verify the above facts.

Therefore let's condemn every crime against humanity including crimes being perpetrated by muslims against non muslims and muslims alike.

I strongly feel that muslims have suffered the most in history. Main tortures of Muslims are their fellow muslims but they try to hide their crime by demonising non muslims.

I call upon all right thinking muslims to have pity on these poor muslims being opressed by fellwo muslims and help them to liberate from clutches of these merciless jehadis.

Jehadis are acting like landllords and greedy pandits of medival persion who used to torture dalits.

Non jehadis muslims are like dalits among Hindus and need full support from every quarter.

Hope Mr khan you will write something about the torture of these dalit Muslims by jehadi Muslims criminals.

#19
Shaan Khan
URL
May 25, 2007
07:28 PM

Man Singh

I write and speak about issues that concern all of humanity. We need to stop killing and murder, regardless of whether they are state funded or funded by misguided fanatics. This fire otherwise will engulf us all. No one will ever be safe while some of us are unsafe.

Let me say I am embarrassed and ashamed about the killing of Hindu Pandits in Kashmir. There is no justification. Such action do not have root in any religion. This is evil act and should not be condoned.

All killing and oppression should be outlawed.

#20
Man singh
URL
May 26, 2007
03:07 PM

Yes Khaan,

I appreciate your reasonableness. Please keep it up. But if people could have follwed you good advise, may you might have been a Muslim today and islam might be limited to few thousand people.

Killing and opression for religion strated with attack of Prophet Mohammed's 10000 strong army on Mecca temple of pagans. Till date all pagan places of worship are under control of Muslims in saudi arabia and almost all were captured and converted by force and opression.

Well let's forget the history and try to make the present world a better place to live. Let's realise our past mistakes and start a fresh with mutual respect and tolerance in present world.

let's put a ban on attack on each otehrs beliefs and hence reigious conversions inspired by greed and politics. Of course willful spritual conversions nobody bothers.

But again issue that stands unresolved is how to solve the problem. How to deal with these killers and opressors?

Whenever any government tries to be harsh on killers, Human rightists and others guys strat shouting, community leaders start shouting of `discrimination'?

In some cases when communities togatehrs challenge thee goons, again vested interest start shouting against community leaders themselves as is happening in salwa judum movement in tribal areaa of central india againt killer naxalites?

It has become a big mess Khan. let all intellignet minds come togaters and plan how to eliminate such kilelrs. When you are dealing with tehse kilers of cousre you need your own killing machines as all can not be reformed without damage.

But when society or government challenges the goons , people start blaming them as `state sponsored terrorists' etc.

Then how to solve the problem?

let's share some ideas. I forse eyou are good human being Mr Khan.

#21
Shaan Khan
URL
May 26, 2007
05:16 PM

Man Singh

Mecca was finally not won but "won over" by Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) without a battle. This was a victory achieved by winning the hearts and minds.

During that time Mecca was ruled by the Quraish, who also believed in Allah along with many other Gods). Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) who lived in Madina then, was sort of surrounded by hostility from Mecca in the South and the Jews of that time and era in the North West. It was a miserable time for the Muslims, they faced attacks from all sides and a very regular basis.

During that period of hostility and much to very one's surprise Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) decided to visit The Holy Kaaba in Mecca. According to the customs of those time, no one was forbidden from visiting Kaaba. Hence by the customs and policies of those days, Quraish could not stop him. Yet allowing Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) would amount to looking weak. To make a long story short they met him at the gates of Kaaba and politely asked him to leave without visiting Kaaba. The Prophet agreed and as a compensation for agreeing he took a ten year no war pledge from the Quraish.

With end to hostilities in the South. The Prophet used his resources and ended the hostilities in the NW. The applied the law of the land (not his own law). Once all hostilities ended, the Muslims thrived thanks to trade (their growth was always fueled by trade). Meccans one by one converted. You have to understand even his enemies gave him credit for his honesty and his sense of fairness. Two years later when Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) returned to Mecca (as per the previous agreement), he was by default the ruler of Mecca.

BTW apart from a small group in India, most Muslims do not believe in special efforts towards conversions. Yes Muslim love to talk about their religion and "showoff" various aspect of their religion, but they do believe that conversion is by God alone. Hence no force is accepted (force can also means entrapment etc). This does not mean that there might be a few misguided fanatics who believe in doing a pious sin (a sick term) but they operate without the blessing of Islam as defined by Quran and Hadith.

#22
Shaan Khan
URL
May 26, 2007
05:21 PM

Man Singh

Mecca was finally not won but "won over" by Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) without a battle. This was a victory achieved by winning the hearts and minds.

During that time Mecca was ruled by the Quraish (who also believed in Allah along with many other Gods). Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) who lived in Madina then, was sort of surrounded by hostility from Mecca in the South and the Jews of that time and era in the North West. It was a miserable time for the Muslims, they faced attacks from all sides and that too on a very regular basis.

During that period of hostility and much to very one's surprise Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) decided to visit The Holy Kaaba in Mecca. According to the customs of those time, no one was forbidden from visiting Kaaba. Hence by the customs and policies of those days, Quraish could not stop him. Yet allowing Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) would amount to looking weak. To make a long story short they met him at the gates of Mecca, and politely asked him to leave without visiting Kaaba. The Prophet agreed and as a compensation for agreeing he took a ten year no war pledge from the Quraish.

With end to hostilities in the South. The Prophet used his resources and ended the hostilities in the NW. Remember he applied the law of the land (not his own law). Once all hostilities ended, the Muslims thrived thanks to trade (their growth was always fueled by trade). Meccans one by one converted. You have to understand even his enemies gave him credit for his honesty and his sense of fairness. Two years later when Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) returned to Mecca (as per the previous agreement), he was by default the ruler of Mecca.

BTW apart from a small group in India, most Muslims do not believe in special efforts towards conversions. Yes Muslim love to talk about their religion and "showoff" various aspect of their religion, but they do believe that conversion is by God alone. Hence no force is accepted (force can also means entrapment etc). This does not mean that there might be a few misguided fanatics who believe in doing a pious sin (a sick term) but they operate without the blessing of Islam as defined by Quran and Hadith.

#23
Ruvy in Jerusalem
May 26, 2007
05:51 PM

Just a few comments.

Israel is at war, and it is led by traitors determined that she should die a slow and painful death. So we have the Arab enemy, a tool in the hands of the western imperialists, the western imperialists themselves, who want to use us for their little colony, but who also want to see us killed off, and we have the traitors at the top in the pay of the western imperialists.

Who are these traitors?

Topping the list is Shim'on Peres, w3ho promised the Vatican control of Mount Zion and the Old City of Jerusalem. He is running for president of the country, and it appears that he (or his goons) have scared off all the other candidates

Next up, the fellow who is called by the title "prime minister" - Ehud Olmert - and his rival "foreign minister" Tzipora Livni. They have already invited European intervention in our country. They have all the legitimacy of a $3 bill. One can go through the list of nearly all the "leaders" of this country and demonstrate why they are traitors who deserve the hanging rope from "Penis"-Paz in the Labor party to the bearded and black coated cowards and thieves (supposedly holy men - India is not the only nation with corrupt and traitorous "godmen") who sold out Jews living in Gush Qatif.

The Zionist movement is dead. It achieved its goal, the creation of the state, and is now killing itself because it resolutely refuses to move to the next step, creating a truly Jewish nation in the Land of Israel, and ending the illegal Arab occupation of so much or our homeland.

This is why I have not wasted bandwidth arguing with Shaan Khan over his complaints or whining. He beats a dead horse with his outdated lies. The Arabs had a "brit reiqah" - that is to say the right to the land when it was empty (or nearly empty) of Jews. That situation is over - forever. The claims of the Arabs no longer apply, no matter how many western imperialists they try to fool with their lies, and no matter how many "post-colonialists" buy them.

But there are a few points I'll bother to take up.

If I hated Indians, why should I post articles here? I don't. I see South Asians as potential allies. I'm not interested in persuading any South Asian to become Jews. I'm not hustling my religion down your throats - unlike some of the Christians who post here.

And I do not hate Moslems. They hate us, and they have demonstrated that hatred time after time after time, in all the lands where they dominated and ruled over us - Iran, Spain, Morocco, Yemen, Syria, Egypt Mesopotamia - and they continue to demonstrate it today, spewing propaganda filled with Jew-hatred from every portal they can. While the majority of "Christian" Europeans just have no use for us (after murdering a third of us off, most of their hostility against us is spent), the Moslems in Europe are the ones who carry out violent attacks on Jews there.

Those are the facts. I have no time for lies or for liars. As for the concern most Moslem powers show towards other Moslems, Man Singh has kindly provided a list in comment #18.

#24
Shaan Khan
URL
May 26, 2007
07:20 PM

"So we have the Arab enemy"

According to UN, you are occupying Arab Lands. There is not single square inch of Israeli territory that the Arabs (or anyone else in this world) is occupying. You are murdering Palestinians and Non-Palestinian Arabs (something even your Tohra forbids). Yet somehow you feel we should have sympathy for you ?

"The Zionist movement is dead."

Bull, it is alive and kicking. It was responsible for fudging information and making USA go to war in Iraq. Right now it wants USA to attack Iran.

"creating a truly Jewish nation in the Land of Israel, and ending the illegal Arab occupation of so much or our homeland."

What drugs are you on Pal ? Illegal Arab occupation ? Let me repeat you are occupying Arab Lands, it is not the other way around. UN and all nations in the world agree that no country is occupying even an inch of Israeli land while Israel is occupying several other countries land.

"This is why I have not wasted bandwidth arguing with Shaan Khan over his complaints or whining. He beats a dead horse with his outdated lies. The Arabs had a "brit reiqah" - that is to say the right to the land when it was empty (or nearly empty) of Jews. That situation is over - forever. The claims of the Arabs no longer apply, no matter how many western imperialists they try to fool with their lies, and no matter how many "post-colonialists" buy them."

How convenient. Don't you wish we all forget about your lies and atrocities?

"If I hated Indians, why should I post articles here? I don't. I see South Asians as potential allies. I'm not interested in persuading any South Asian to become Jews. I'm not hustling my religion down your throats - unlike some of the Christians who post here."

We have already seen you hatred for Indians. Most Israelis think of Indians as "Monkeys swinging from trees" .

"And I do not hate Moslems. They hate us, and they have demonstrated that hatred time after time after time, in all the lands where they dominated and ruled over us - Iran, Spain, Morocco, Yemen, Syria, Egypt Mesopotamia - and they continue to demonstrate it today, spewing propaganda filled with Jew-hatred from every portal they can. While the majority of "Christian" Europeans just have no use for us (after murdering a third of us off, most of their hostility against us is spent), the Moslems in Europe are the ones who carry out violent attacks on Jews there."

Maybe that is because you are breaking all international laws and murdering people ?

"Those are the facts. I have no time for lies or for liars. As for the concern most Moslem powers show towards other Moslems, Man Singh has kindly provided a list in comment #18."

More fish are killed by other fish than by mankind. Does this mean we should not make efforts to preserve some endangered species ?

#25
Ruvy in Jerusalem
May 26, 2007
08:00 PM

A fool proclaims himself a fool. (Kohelet)

Shaan, I do not give a damn what the UN says. I live here and I know a damned sight better than you what does and does not go on here. And if anything, I know a pack of liars when I see them, and the overpaid scum from the UN are just such a pack of liars.

But you continue to proclaim yourself the fool in your ignorance. Note my comments to Jaffna, the Cynical Nerd, the author of "The Deconstruction of Martha Sussbaum."

I generally shy away from comments about India because I do not know enough about the place. You'd be wise to follow my lead. Your ignorance of this country is deeper than the Phillipine Trench in the Pacific Ocean.

Maybe some Israeli called you a "monkey swinging from a tree", but I never have. But were I to, the moniker would be aimed at you and you alone, certainly not at Indians generally. I'm not a racist, and I'm most discriminating in my insults.

BUT IN THE MEANTIME, I'D APPRECIATE IF YOU READ WHAT I WRITE, SOMETHING YOU HAVE NOT DONE, AND DO NOT TRY TO STICK WORDS IN MY MOUTH. SO, FAR THIS HAS NOT BEEN A CONVERSATION WITH A HUMAN, BUT WITH A CARDBOARD CUTOUT.

Try getting a personality and pay attention to someone who lives here, not the bigoted bullshit you read in your sources of news.

#26
Shaan Khan
URL
May 26, 2007
08:58 PM

Ruvy

I know by now that you and Israel do not believe in UN or its resolutions. Thus the world calls Israel a rouge nation. I am glad you confirmed it. On the other hand Un for you becomes very important when it can be exploited to attack Iraq or Iran.

I did get a chance to talk to the Late Rachel Corey (a Jewish women from Brooklyn, NY USA) who was later bull dozed by your state. Poor girl died while standing up for the truth. Remember Rachel ? I am sure like the rest of you war mongers, you also think that she was a bitch. BTW The quote about Monkeys was lifted directly from Indian diplomats who where there in an official capacity.


#27
Ruvy in Jerusalem
May 28, 2007
04:18 AM

A fool proclaims himself a fool (Kohelet)

"I did get a chance to talk to the Late Rachel Corey (a Jewish women from Brooklyn, NY USA) who was later bull dozed by your state. Poor girl died while standing up for the truth. Remember Rachel?"

You keep on proclaiming yourself to be a fool. I suggest you get your facts straight. The late Rachel Corrie was a young lady raised on the west coast of the United States, in either the state of Washington or Oregon. If memory serves, her parents are rather well off, her father being a doctor. In college (on this site, I suppose I should say "in university") she joined a running dog of Moslem terrorists, the ISM, and got herself photographed burning an American flag. No records indicate either her or her parents as being Jews.

I was raised in Brooklyn, NY and to suggest that such an idiot as Rachel Corrie was a Brooklyn Jew is an insult to Jews, and to Brooklyn, both. Neither Jews nor Brooklyn deserve any linking with this stupid, spoiled, suburban fool of a rich girl.

Since I was once a Brooklyn Jew, let me tell you a little bit about us. We learn early (as do most all residents of New York City) how to cross against the stop-light and stay alive, and how to dodge on-coming traffic and stay alive. No Brooklyn Jew is so stupid as to stand in front of a bulldozer destroying a house.

Whatever reasons are given attempting to sanctify or glorify this dead Moslem terrorist running dog, the bottom line is that by standing in front of a bulldozer, she proved, if she proved nothing else, that she did not have the intelligence of the least intelligent of Brooklyn Jews.

I do not think that Rachel Corrie was a bitch. I have more respect for bitches than that.

This alleged comment by some Israelis calling Indians "monkeys swinging from tree" really seems to have you upset. I know I have never heard any Israeli refer to Indians this way. Could you attempt to provide a link URL link to this claim by an Indian diplomat? You do have me curious.

OH, by the way, I am no war-monger. The simple and cheap solution to the Qassam rockets is
1) shut off the Gaza water supply
2) shut off all electricity to Gaza
3) blockade any food or medicine shipments
4) blow up any fishing ships or foreign ships bringing in food or medicine
5) ditto with airplanes attempting to land.
6) blow up the hospitals in Gaza.

Then we post the price for the end of the blockade - the heads of at least 100 Hamas, Al Qaeda, and PLO leaders on pikes displayed near the Erez border crossing - including Haniyeh and Abbas, if possible.

Then we send in the planes and fleet only when needed, and sit back and fold our arms. No raids, no targeted killing, no attacks, except to block incoming traffic.

The Arabs want war, and they should get one. They want to resist, and they should discover what the price of resistance can be - slowly, painfully, and without any Israeli having to endanger his life.

Brutal, short term and damned effective on several levels, particularly in terms of money. The job will be done in three weeks, maximum.

OH - and to people like you screaming bloody murder? Scream until you get hoarse and lose your voice. Since so much of the world hates us anyway, we have nothing to lose. You'll just hate us some more. Big fuckin' deal.

#28
Shaan Khan
URL
May 28, 2007
08:22 AM

Ruvy

Hint, look up the book that one of your Mosad guys. You will find the comment of "Monkeys Swinging on tress there" too.

If I hated you I would not be part of this back and forth. The world does not hate Jews. The outcry is because we want Isreal to submit to International Law (e.g. UN). We want Isreal to stop murdering. We want Israel & you to to stop hating. Your hate will turn you into the very person who you claim you hate.

I am not surprised by your view on Rachel. You don't like anyone who wants peace or wants to speak the truth. Rachel and her Boyfriend both worked for peace groups in Israel. She defied the bulldozer that was threathing to tear down a Plaestinians home, much like the infamous person who defied the tanks in Tinnamen square. She willingly gave her like so that you may open your eyes. For peace loving people all over the world (including Jews in israel) she is a personification of courage. The way you talk about her is disgusting. She is a hero.

Nonetheless for you, all people who talk about peace and love are to be hated and attacked. You guys shot down Rabin too once he agreed to peace. Look at your views on any Israeli who wants peace. It is a embarrasing you state these views without shame or remorse.

Now you suggest (like the yahoo from Nathan) that Israrel should starve Plaestinians till they submit. Once agin you show so little regards to life. No life is precious for you, not even Jewish life. All you want is to kill and murder. You have killed and murdered for about 60 years, has it produced any results ? You are still just a beggar nation surviving on my tax dollars. Why not give peace a chance ?


#29
Ruvy in Jerusalem
May 28, 2007
10:15 AM

Well, Shaan, this is getting interesting. Evidently you live in America and resent your government providing a credit chit to the Israeli military to buy arms in America with American money.

You know what? Here, you and I agree one hundred percent. The best thing for this country would be for the Americans to cut the credit chit to zero, so that taxpayers like you would not feel that you were supporting an oppressive government. You read right. I said the Americans should cut out all of their aid, take out their soldiers and get the hell out! We'll get by just fine without America.

And now the fun part. America will never do that. That credit chit is an instrument of imperial control as surely as the salt tax was in the Indian Empire under Britain's "dyarchy."

Just as Indians had to break the power of the salt tax, we Israelis have to break the power of the American credit chit.

It means ditching the traitors at the top - people like Olmert, Peres, and all their puppets like Livni and Penis, and all the idiots in the National Religious Party who have been traitors (not Ephraim Eitam), Avigdor Lieberman, who is just a tool of the Russian mafia here, along with a whole slew of bearded thieves who call themselves "Torah sages".

Are you sure you really think I want to associate with such people? They are worse scum than Rachel Corrie. She was just a rich, spoiled, American suburbanite college brat who picked the wrong side in a war and did something incredibly stupid and got herself killed doing it. Getting run over by a bulldozer driver who can't even see you there and can't hear you in the din of the shouting of demonstrators is a dumb way to die - not heroic at all. But all those other characters I just mentioned - they are Jews and are betraying their own people. There isn't a rope clean enough to wrap around their necks to hang them...

One other thing. I would be happy to have Israel called a "rouge" state. I do have socialist leanings myself, you know... As for the rogues - those are the Arabs who we have to fight, unfortunately... You know, like Hamas, that bunch of killers that has vowed to wipe us off the map. Go ahead. Look it up.

One last thing for you to think about. The man who arranged for YitzHaq Rabin to be killed was named Shim'on Peres. The executioner was a man named Yoram Rubin. Both are walking around free today. In fact, unless I have my facts wrong, Rubin is guarding Olmert!

#30
Shaan Khan
URL
May 28, 2007
11:30 AM

Ruvy:

There is enough evidence to show that the driver of the bulldozer saw Rachel, but was instructed to crush her and the house she was trying to protect. This is not even funny when you try to claim that the driver did not see her. Tell me did Rachel deserve to die because she was a RICH KID ? Don't you get it, she was harmless and defenseless, her death is murder. The worst of crimes (according to the Torah, Bible and Quran and perhaps all religions) that humans can commit.

Let us forget about Rachel (she was a RICH KID) for the moment. Let me tell you about O.S. (name suppressed) who was a poor Jewish kid (woman) from Israel. At one point she and I were very close. I experienced first hand the tremblings and the nightmare she went though at nights. I felt her guilt and her paranoia. The killing that she did while in the Israeli Army devastated her. It scarred her soul, destroyed her mental balance. One moment she was an angel and another a wreck. She was a living corpse. Nothing that I could do or anyone (Doctors, family) could do, helped her, because she never could forgive herself (I talk to you via this post in my loving memory of O.S.).

Unfortunately most of Israel is like O.S. They live in self inflicted pain. An Israeli person today is very likely to pick up a gun and shoot down his/her own crying child because killing has become a goto option. In case of doubt just kill. Rather than pacify a child (one's own child), beating him/her to pulp has become a option.

Peace will repair the soul and the society. It will usher in a future with stability. What is going on now will never result in any victory for anyone.

I understand that you have strength & power on your side. You have USA as a hostage to your will. You think that no one will be able to stop you. But my friend, my fellow human being, what you are doing is evil. Murder is evil. Someday, Devine justice will find its way to you. Some day even a breast feeding infant might get empowered by God to topple your oppressive rule. Fear that day, and leave some cushion for yourself so that on that day of reckoning you would be able to make available God's mercy. As you already know God does exist. As you know God is just.




#31
Man singh
URL
May 28, 2007
12:05 PM

Shaan,
Muslims are very innocent and good hearted people. They innocently belive whatever mullas preach them even without a minutest doubt.

But today everything is in internet. Everybody can acess different view points about the same event , can use common sense to find the grains of truth.

Look at the situation :

Mullas say Mohammed civilsied the pagans of Arab and gave women more respect.

But a person with little common sense can see that before islam Arab women were running internation bussinesses and Mohammed himself was working for such bussinesswomen. But after Islam women were pushed behind the veil and women became helpless. tell me if Mohammed empowered women and supressed them?

Mullas say that during times of pagans everubody was free to visit mecca this means that pagans were more liberal and civilised then muslims as once mohammed took over mecca he banned entry of non muslims. Even today non muslims can not enter there. Don'nt you feel mullas contradict their own words and pagans were more liberal , toilerant and civilised then muslims as they allwowed everybody to enter the temple while muslims banned non muslims from entry?


Again On one side Mullas say that pagans allowed Mohamemd to leave mecca peacefully, they could easyly have killed him if they were as fanatic as mohammed, on the other hand they say muslims were attacked from all sides and justify crimes against humanity and contradicting their own words.

The treaty of Hubaida was broken by Muslims themselves. How ridiculous is your statement that an army of 10000 strong people ready to attack peaceloving pagans won the hearts and minds of the people? It was simply terror of those 1000 people that forced people to say what mullas preach today.

Mohamemd might have built his own Mosques in place of capturing and plundering pagans temples as Budha did in India, mahaveer swami did in India and people can see even today Budhsits , jain Sikh and Hindu temple stand side by side.

Look at Arya sammaj in India who are dead against Deity worship, but they never attacked and captured tempels with deities like Muslims.

Hope muslims will come out of clutches of Mullas as Hindus have come out of clutches of greedy Pandits. Muslims should read Quran and hadith themselves and should read oppoite views as well to find out grain of truth themselves.

It will eliminate all fanatacism and improve upon image of Islam as well. Only blind follwers see miracle behind every act of their prophets even if they committed certain crimes against humanity.

Muslims never spared even their fellow muslims just after death of Mohammed. they even never spared even the children and grand children of mohamemd, how could they might have been merciful to rest of humanity. Let's use common sense and not merely believe what mullas preach us.

I apolologise for any offence.

#32
Ruvy in Jerusalem
May 28, 2007
12:54 PM

Shaan,

Finally, you are talking like a person, and not a cardboard cutout! Kol hakavód! Let us indeed forget Rachel Corrie and talk some about your friend, zikhroná l'brakhá (may her soul be for a blessing). Let us also move from ideological posturing to realistic thought.

Being a combat soldier (or being attached to a unit that is sometimes involved in combat) is a nightmare, and some people are not cut out for the nightmares you can get from having to participate in organized killing - and that is what war is - organized killing. Your friend wasn't.

I do not know of the circumstances of her having to kill - whether it was in combat, or fighting off a terrorist attack on a unit that she was in.

I am part of the police auxiliary in Jerusalem and my main task is watching out for terrorists and protecting the civilian population from them. My uniform makes me a target.

In addition to having the basic restriction of firing my weapon only when life is threatened, I have to consider the innocent civilians around me as well. But on rare occasions, I'm in a situation that doesn't require me to constantly worry about hitting innocent civilians. In the one instance that I was in this situation, I broke out in a cold sweat. Unlike your friend, I had not had combat experience as a soldier. I was prepared to fire if necessary, but there were lots of other possibilities that occurred to me.

My point here is that I'm not sure how I would have reacted if I had had to actually open fire, a possibility I was "prepared" for. In reality, nobody is "prepared" to kill, no matter how good the military training is.

Secondly, you ignore the fact that I view as one of my big enemies the United States of America. I'm not this cardboard cutout settler with the cardboard cutout settle mentality that you have created. I am, like you, and your friend the girl soldier with the nightmares of combat, a real person.

Many times the training a soldier gets is just not sufficient for the job at hand, and in Israel, many time, the job of a soldier is not what one expects. And it usually stinks.

NOW. Go back and read my article. I talked about an army being set up to lose. I talked about soldiers who were ill-treated by their government. In articles about the Lebanon war I talked about strategies that unnecessarily targeted civilians as well as needlessly endangering soldiers' lives. I talked abut America crippled the Israeli government in its efforts, and made it impossible for Israel to succeed in its goals, legitimate or otherwise.

Dinner calls. You have some reading to do.

#33
Shaan Khan
URL
May 28, 2007
01:20 PM

Man Singh:

"Muslims are very innocent and good hearted people. They innocently belive whatever mullas preach them even without a minutest doubt.

But today everything is in internet. Everybody can acess different view points about the same event , can use common sense to find the grains of truth."


Internet is cutting through a lot of barriers all over the world. It has leveled the playing field and made a lot of people free. It has made you and I into brothers.

"But a person with little common sense can see that before islam Arab women were running internation bussinesses and Mohammed himself was working for such bussinesswomen. But after Islam women were pushed behind the veil and women became helpless. tell me if Mohammed empowered women and supressed them?"

Islam "legalized" for the firs time in time in human history a woman's right to own assets and property; a woman's right to choose her future (reject a husband); a woman's right to dicate balance of power within her marriage etc etc.

It is true that a lot of Muslims in many a Muslim countries are ignoring God give natural rights of woman. I do not deny that, I do not blame Islam, I blame the local men. I question their Muslimness. If they have any shame they will remove all barriers to equality (which Islam provides). But this is also a common problem in all nations and in all faiths. For example USA still has not elected a woman president (while many Islamic countries have elected Woman President/Prime Ministers). Did you know that Quran has been so equal to woman that it even mentions women as many times as it mentions men. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) said (when addressing men) that the best of you are the ones that are the best to their wives. Remind these two issues to any Mullah when he tries to bullshit you on the issue of women.

"Mullas say that during times of pagans everubody was free to visit mecca this means that pagans were more liberal and civilised then muslims as once mohammed took over mecca he banned entry of non muslims. Even today non muslims can not enter there. Don'nt you feel mullas contradict their own words and pagans were more liberal , toilerant and civilised then muslims as they allwowed everybody to enter the temple while muslims banned non muslims from entry?"

The restrictions came after Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). It was a reaction to some mischief and over the top politicking by those that were trying to upstage a young religion.


"Again On one side Mullas say that pagans allowed Mohamemd to leave mecca peacefully, they could easyly have killed him if they were as fanatic as mohammed, on the other hand they say muslims were attacked from all sides and justify crimes against humanity and contradicting their own words."

When Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) lived in Mecca he was under the protection of a very powerful Uncle. In those days that counted for something. He has in a way of saying saved by his Uncle. Yet there were attempt to kill him. Even Hadrat Umer (RA) once left him home to kill Prophet Mohammed (Pbuh). This is before Umer (RA) converted to Islam.

When Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) left Mecca he had to do it with a lot of precautions. There were groups of Quraish trying to hunt him down and kill him. It took him a while to get to Madina. He had to hide in caves etc for a while.



"The treaty of Hubaida was broken by Muslims themselves."

When Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) gave his word he kept it. Also a Muslim who break a treaty is condemned to hell. Hence tell me how the Muslims broke the treaty. The fact is far from breaking the treaty they never even challenged the treaty or the spirit of the treaty. Show me anything that they did to break that treaty. Prophet Mohammed (phub) was asked to go back and come again after sometime when the treaty was signed. That is exactly what he did. During that visit the most power man and his tribe in Mecca converted. He has greeted with sweets and garland. There was no fight.

"Mohamemd might have built his own Mosques in place of capturing and plundering pagans temples as Budha did in India, mahaveer swami did in India and people can see even today Budhsits , jain Sikh and Hindu temple stand side by side."

God commanded Muslims to protect a synagogue, temple, church, (any place of worship) just like he is commanded them to protect Mosques. Further more any Muslim that does not allow a non Muslim a right to choose his own manner of worship is not a Muslim. Islam gives everyone a right to worship a God of their liking. It is not easy being a Muslim. There are many self proclaimed Muslims who are just ignorant arseholes. As I have said many a times to you, If there is Mullah who says that a Muslim is allowed to destruct a temple or not protect it tell him that he is a trouble maker and is wrong. Send that Mullah to me and I will slap him around for you.

As a Muslim I have no problem with your religion, or any aspect of it. When I say this it is not me but my religion which is saying that. Forget the bull shit you hear. I am proud and content with my religion and I want you to be proud and content with your. I have no desire to neither convert you nor even make an attempt to convert you. I am happy with what I have and you be happy with what you have. Let me say I have learned a lot about Hinduism and am happy that I used my time to study it. I gained so much. Likewise if you go beyond the politics (via who did what to whom) and read the substance of Islam you will like me find time well spent. Trust me my friend, I have yet to come across any religion which is evil or professes to do harm to others. Those that do not read Rumi because it is Islamic poetry, or Shakespeare because it is Christian poetry, or Kalidas because it is Hindu are looser. All poetry enriches us. All philosophies enrich us. All wisdom enriches us. Desi food is delicious, so is Middle Eastern food, so is Italian etc etc. Learn to enjoy all things.

Allow me to end this post by saying that a Hindu women on the internet corrected me on Islam. I used to say "Inshallah", she taught me that the correct way was to say "Insha Allah". See how beautiful the world can be if you allow it to be so.

#34
Shaan Khan
URL
May 28, 2007
03:30 PM

Ruvy

I have no doubt that your uniform makes you a target, just like I have no doubt that their being Palestinians have doomed them. Otherwise you both have the same red blood flowing in your veins. You both want the same things and for the same reasons.

Knowing your pre-disposition, I will pray for the Palestinians; I will pray for Peres (if you were to guard him :) ); and above all I will pray for you. May God (call him Elohim, God, Allah, Bhagwan) keep you safe and get you on the path of peace and tranquility.

I "know" sooner or later all this negativity will catch up with up. When that happens please remember that there was a Muslim human being in NYC who prayed for you.

AS a Muslim I do not assign you the guilt or sin of your ancestors who came over and occupied Palestine. Theirs is their burden to carry. They will be judged for their action, just as we all will be judged for our own actions.

I wish you peace. Shalom Eleikom.

#35
Man singh
URL
May 28, 2007
07:49 PM

Shaan if islam does not permit to destroy oters places of worship, then why Muhamemd captured pagans temple in Mecca (where you go for haj), temples of three pagan Goddesses Al Mannat, Al Ujja and Al lat?

I can trust you that Mohamed Bin qassin did Unislamic nonsense when he attacked India and converted Hindus to Islam which Muslims glorify that `he brought light of Islam to India', gajani and gory's did all unislamic acts by attacking capturing converting or killing Hindus.

But should I assume even Mohammed's acts of capturing and plundering pagan temples as unislamic?

#36
Shaan Khan
URL
May 28, 2007
10:28 PM

Man Singh

First of all let me say that I do not mind your questions. It is important that people talk to each other and ask questions. You have a right to ask questions and if I can provide an answer (within the limitation of my knowledge) I will provide an answer. If not I will tell you that I don't know.

Let us take one issues at a time. Lets us talk about Holy Kaaba (Mecca, Saudi Arabia) first.

Holy Kaaba was a house of Allah that was built on the command of Allah by Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh). Over years, since Mecca was like a trading post, it became a free for all. All visitors who came for trade to Mecca placed their Gods/Godess there. Nonetheless it was always acknowledged primarily as a House of Allah.

I generally try to provide a nutshell perspective. In case you need more details on the above paragraph, I recommend that you refer to Karen Armstrong, a former English Nun who has written extensively on Judaism, Christianity, islam and Buddhisms.

As you know Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) belonged to Quraish family. The Quraish were the guardians of Kaaba and believed primarily in Allah. Other God and Godess were "accepted" as it lent to enhance Mecca's status as a trading city. It was considered a "wise" tactical move for the business.

When Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) finally took over Kaaba he merely restored the Kaaba to its original state. Islam was not a "new" religion that started with Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) but merely a continuation of an old message from God. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) represents a sort of revival point in the history of Islam. Hence please note that he did not uproot the indigenous and in its place installed something alien.

Read Dr Jerald F Dirks for more details on the above para.

I hope I was able to answer your question.



) for more deatils on this issue.

#37
Ruvy in Jerusalem
May 29, 2007
08:13 AM

There were primaries to choose the head of the Labor party in Israel yesterday. While five individuals ran for the position, only three of them, Ami Ayalon, Ehud Barak and Amir Peretz got a significant number of votes from Labor party members. There was a heavy turnout of Labor voters. It appears that the present leader, Amir Peretz, has been sacked, and there will be a run-off run-off between the top two vote-getters on 12 June.

Hopefully, within a few hours, an article of mine will appear at Blogcritics Magazine covering this primary and what I believe to be its real consequences. Inasmuch as it is now the policy within the Blogcritics Network not to cross post here, please stop by at Blogcritics Magazine to read it.

Best regards,
Ruvy in Jerusalem

#38
Shaan Khan
URL
May 29, 2007
10:17 AM

Ruvy

Look forward to you analysis.

#39
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
May 29, 2007
11:34 PM

It took more than just a little while, but the article at Blogcritics is FINALLY posted. News Analysis from Israel: Once S'derot is Evacuated, Will the Arabs Occupy it or Not? is available at the link...

#40
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
May 30, 2007
02:33 AM

Shaan,

Thank you for your prayers. I ought to have thanked you earlier. I apologize. In the coming period leading up to the Redemption, we will all need each others prayers.

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