Gettin' Bitchy Wit It: A Window Into Feminism

Lol, Aditi, what's that they say? The Nile is not just a river in Egypt?

I don't think that disclaimer's going to work btw. Even if you're spot on.

Aditi... effing brilliant. I mean it. I was thinking on writing something similar, but I have been too pissy on said subject to cobble together anything that wasn't provocative.

Anyway, your mom is spot on (and sounds damned smart and with it!). but somehow I lose my humor when faced with these guys. mostly because I have dealt with so many rape victims, so many abuse victims, so many downtrodden women.... their claims make me furious. But while I agree with you that some of them are probably angry at past experiences with woman, attributing their ridiculousness to that is, in effect, blaming the victim.

These men are adults, and as such should be able to understand that all women should not have to pay for the demise of their marriage. They are responsible for their own actions, and they choose to abdicate... blaming the evil woman for everything. So who's to say that their marriages did not disintegrate because they showed the same disrespect to their wives as they display in this venue?

Either way, there is a fundamental lack of personal responsibility displayed by these guys. That makes me insane.

I told ya this girl's good, Ams! Great post, Aditi. Laffed out loud over your 'I was nine and I didn't care. I wanted to sit on a swing'. I really love your clear, concise way of getting your point across. But, like our learned friend has said, that disclaimer is sort of wasted on the Fruit & Nut Zone.
But dont ya worry - when the mud slinging starts, we'll be there, right behind you! ;)
Keep 'em coming!

Hello girls!

Gosh, it is nice to wake up to supportive comments :)

@Amrita: Yes, I know the disclaimer's a waste but its that tiny optimist in me that wants to try every single time :) I'm hopeless.

@SS: You said "So who's to say that their marriages did not disintegrate because they showed the same disrespect to their wives as they display in this venue?"

I say: There's a lot of truth in that statement. In the one blog comment/ email that I cite in this article, the guy went on to use such filthy/ sexist language to criticize his wife and then me. I could quite imagine why the marriage might've ended, cruel as it may sound.

@DG: Thanks DG! I will be relying on you girls to be there once the name calling begins although this line of expression does require one to be pretty thick skinned. I have rediscovered my sense of humor in a whole new combative way :)

hehehee... Excellent post Aditi..

Aditi, they do crawl out of the woodwork and spew their hatred. Take it with a pinch of salt.

When criticism becomes voracious it means you are on the right track;)

Excellent Aditi. Great advice from your mom.

One thing I'd add though is that not just young men but I've also met young women who think feminism and bitchy and they don't want to be associated with it despite the fact that they are reaping its benefits. Perhaps, they feel young men will like them less if they are feminists. Who knows?

Hello All,

I want a help from you all to know a few things.

It is possible that sometimes a woman is annoyed or angered by things that her husband does. In your opinion, is it a justified Domestic violence case

a. If he routinely goes out without telling her and she keeps waiting for him for hours.?

b. If he neglects the house or the children?

c. If he always argues with her?

d. If he refuses to have sex with her?

e. If he is very lazy and does not work at office such that it starts affecting the salary that he brings home.

f. If she suspects him of being unfaithful?

g. If he shows disrespect for his in-laws?

Please let me know, yes or no for each of the above cases separately.

Dear Aditi,

Nice article, though somewhat onesided. I agree with you on some of the stats (45% of women in India physically abused? Hmmm, I wonder where that number came from). There is no doubt, there is much discrimination in this world, gender based one included.

What you didn't mention in your article is this: many times the spousal abuse in India takes place in the presence and sometimes in collusion with other women. The mother-in-laws, the sister-in-laws and other assorted women contribute equally to the abuse. I will admit, if the husband is supportive, all this can be avoided, but women's culpability can't be denied. In case of female infanticide, if the mother is strictly opposed to it, I wonder how many such incidents still take place?

It has been my personal experience that often women find it very difficult to get along with other women. The common misunderstanding between friends, families and other social settings, usually starts with women. Call me sexist if you like, but it is my personal experience. For instance, they have done some research on bullying in schools in the US, and found that girls' bullying is much more hurtful and damaging the boys'.

I have no doubt that women are being discriminated against all over the world and especially India. Where men make up most of the rules, unfortunately this is going to continue for some more time. However, I believe the tide is turning, again especially in India, what with more girls than boys graduating from high schools, more women getting involved in politics due to reservations etc.

It is wrong to blame all the ills on men. I am not sure what feminism means, but if it means to seek equal status with men while taking equal responsibility then I am for it. Society as a whole needs to take responsibility for this issue. There are clearly men who think for some reason that they need to control their women. At the same time, there are also women, who support their men in this cause. There are also women who ill treat other women. The reasons could be many, and we need to understand the evolutionary causes behind such behavior.

This is a highly charged political issue. A level headed debate is necessary without the emotional undertones that usually accompanies such debates. It is very hard to do it politically, but science can help as well. I sincerely believe that evolution has had major reasons for why men behave the way they do and the same with women. Scientific research can open eyes, when it doesn't become dogma. I see little hope unless, both men and women work towards improving the situation.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Shfn, no one has the right to be abusive towards another whatever be the situation.

@shfn

There is no justification for domestic violence, period!! You can add as many questions or scenarios to your list. Nothing can justify domestic violences to spouse.

Thanks Deepti and Sanam...But, What I wanted to know was if the acts I mentioned above a) to g) could be considered as acts of domestic violence for which a female can seek help.

Regards

@Kishore: Thanks!

@Deepti: Yup, its been taking me more than a few pinches of salt lately...I'm starting to think pepper helps too, when sprinkled generously over my retorts. Hehe :)

@Jawahara: Glad you liked the article. I agree: I began my article stating that I disagreed with men as with women about feminism. I have come across women who think of feminism as something that applies only to career women and others who think that feminism immediately indicates a man-hating scheme of some sort.

@Shfn: You asked the following: "Is it possible that sometimes a woman is annoyed or angered by things that her husband does?"

It is possible and in fact highly likely that spouses get angry over several issues. It is two humans of opposite genders with dissimilar tendencies and there will be disagreements. BUT like in all cases, discord should be dealt with maturity. Violence does NOT help matters but instead makes them worse. Conditions such as post-partum depression or a nervous breakdown could lead to such a situation but it can be remedied/ prevented early through appropriate counselling and understanding on part of both persons involved. For men, physical violence, even if it may not seem physically scarring is a huge dent to their self-respect and their emotions. Such an action can alienate a man and even have dire consequences on the pysche of the kids who watch such incidents. If you know someone who is or are yourself going through a period of frustration where they/ you feel like taking it out in a violent manner, I would recommend that you consult a family/ couples' therapist. Believe me, there is nothing more effective than logical and honest verbal communication.

I hope I was of some help.

@Ravi: The statistics were obtained from an excerpt from the National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB). I agree with you on quite a few counts. Surprising as it may sound to you, I don't think your opinion is sexist at all...it is in fact very logical. Both culpability and gullibility of women is partly responsible for their suffering. Women inflict violence and often it is the female in-laws that make life increasingly difficult for a woman. The abuse continues through generations. I agree. This article was not meant primarily to highlight women's abuse. It was meant to discuss and shed some light on the misconstrued concept of feminism that is constantly bashed on this particular site and in general as well. Both men and women are equally guilty of having botched feminist ideas with their prejudice. If you notice, I state in the very first paragraph that: "But being a woman, the one concept that I found myself differing on with men and women alike was ironically "feminism"."

You said: "It is wrong to blame all the ills on men. I am not sure what feminism means, but if it means to seek equal status with men while taking equal responsibility then I am for it."

I would never go to the extreme of blaming all ills on men. As I said in my article, extremism of all kinds is dangerous. Equal status and equal responsibility sounds like the best circumstance to me. Responsibility however follows status. And hence it might take a few years for the reforms to take root and show enough effect for women to then start taking the responsibility as well. This I say in consideration of the large rural segment of India where the feminist movement has yet to manifest its reforms.

You said: "Society as a whole needs to take responsibility for this issue."

I say: Absolutely. Agree 100%

Thank you for the comments and the discussion.

OH! I understand your question now, Shfn!

You meant to ask if any of the things you stated were equivalent to domestic abuse...is that what you meant?

If you are trying to find the specific legalities involved, I would suggest that you consult a lawyer but in view of your questions, I will try to answer to the best of my abilities:

a. If he routinely goes out without telling her and she keeps waiting for him for hours.?:
b. If he neglects the house or the children?

a) and b) This, in extreme cases, can amount to spousal neglect but not abuse.


c. If he always argues with her?

No that is not domestical abuse unless there is verbal abuse involved.

d. If he refuses to have sex with her?

This can surmount to Impotence if that is the reason for him refusing to have sex. Impotence is valid grounds for either annulment or divorce under Indian law. But just refusing to have sex is not.

e. If he is very lazy and does not work at office such that it starts affecting the salary that he brings home.

f. If she suspects him of being unfaithful?

If the adultery can be proven then it is grounds for divorce.

g. If he shows disrespect for his in-laws?

Nope this is not domestic abuse.

Conclusively: none of the above are domestic abuse but are considered grounds for divorce by Indian law. I would like to add that a lawyer's opinion would be far more accurate and mine is just based on knowledge at hand.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Aditi..

You suggested that none of listed issues were domestic abuse cases. Is divorce recommend in all such cases. Consulting lawyer can involve a huge fees which many women may not be able to afford and which takes a long time as well. I know a lot of women who undergo this kind of life. What should be my suggestion to them?

I think extremism gets a bad rap - for me its a highly amorphous concept. Feminism itself was considered radical and extremist when it first saw the light of the day. Women as equal to men? Gasp! But wasn't Eve created from Adam's rib? Doesn't anyone get it? It's against nature itself.

Now of course Feminism is at the center of political and social idealogy. In any case, some measure of controlled extremism gets you far when bringing in a just change that goes against the embedded norms of society. Being slightly left of middle ground is good only for incremental changes.

Just watched the video on CNN, of a girl being publicly stoned in Iraq. I am sickened and sad that such things still happen today. We have a long way to go.

Warning: It is a very disturbing video.

Ravi

Shfn: There probably are pro-bono legal representations offered by some lawyers who are assoiciated with social work foundations. Pro-bono=free/ no charge/ minimal fee for paperwork. If you do know women who are in such situations then it would be very advisable for them to get in touch with an organization that helps women in distress, abusive marriages etc. If counselling can help that can be recommended too although adultery probably is sufficient grounds for divorce and is granted if the case is proven. If through communication and counselling, the family unit can be preserved then that option should be evaluated but only if the situation isn't out of hand.

@Aspi: That is an interesting theory: Extremism as an amorphous concept. I'm going to have to think about that one.

Aditi: To prove adultery in court is very difficult with evidences e.t.c. In many cases women anticipate possible adultery given the circumstances behavior e.t.c.

However, adultery is not the only cause...If such incidences as listed above are not abuse, can we say it is an abusive marriage? I have been telling some women to consider this as usual wear and tear of marriage and ignore all such things for the sake of preserving marriage.

In many cases men do not give divorce because they fear that they may have to pay alimony. They may not physically/explicitly harm, but usually adopt one of these tactics(a-g) or may be more.

Anyways, Thanks for help...

Hey!!!, who issued this bomb scare once again ;).

Shfn: you and your women are money suckers. For god sake think of life without alimony. What????, you do not eat, or that you have one less limb or one less eye or one less ear. Why can not earn and feed for yourself. You and your women have surely one too many tongue to spit venom on your spouses or drool it out for their hard earned money.

Looks like we have an "alimony affliction" ladies! Boy, somebody's sore!

@Sfhn: Pls do not be offended by FF's comments. you might've noticed that in my article I have an entire paragraph dedicated to such presumptuous labelling by a few commentators...

"What is it, I wondered, that these men experienced to have been turned against an entire gender this way? A bitter divorce, a nagging wife, an alimony settlement that left them seething, a broken heart perhaps, an absent, uncaring mother or just plain prejudice? There is no way for me to ever find out what makes these men turn into "anti-feminists" and deny a history of oppression because of one isolated experience. What I do know is, if I as a woman took my limited experiences with some pretty crass men and judged every man by those standards it would be very simply just unfair."

Congratulations Aditi...Your joke(in the article) has been nominated for advertisement of The Great Indian Laughter Challenge - Part 3.

[1-7]

Seven Samurai

or

A delusion check.

When did "you all" last made an opinion AFTER collecting/consulting facts and data.

The only data you quote is "45 percent of Indian women" and expectedly but unfortunately even that is vague and in-correct.

Your article illustrates an example of typical "un-examined" bias.

This article also illustrates why women form good managers(you know ... That Boss and I ;) but bad governance.

Hurray...The Feminism has all the good things in right composition and that is why former feminists who now have grown up sons are feeling threatened of the consequences of their follies which were committed 30 years back.

BTW, feminism is good for the society in a sense. It will promote a healthy competition among males. Whosesoever will be easily bullied by women will survive, and further have sex with them and finally pass on genes to next generation...Unless of-course medical science revolutionizes the way livings beings are born and renders them obsolete.

The crux of the issue is not that

The there is a dearth of data to prove that feminist rants are hoaxes.

That the logic(if any) in this article can not challanged and dismissed as mere hypothesis, and later fed to dogs.

OR

That one is short of personal anecdotes to counter sporadic allegations of genuine mal-treatment of some human beings by other human beings such that former happen to be females.

BUT THE FACT THAT

1. Despite all above, does there exist a sane voice who is ready to accept harsh facts and truths.

2. How can feminism be annihilated, if all it takes is less than 2% votes to decide the fate of democracy.


Let us(men and women)together contemplate on it.

FF:

You said: "BTW, feminism is good for the society in a sense. It will promote a healthy competition among males. Whosesoever will be easily bullied by women will survive...."

Feminism is a concept which like religion can be interpreted, perceived and applied differently depending on factors such as individual experiences, upbringing, cultural differences etc. Hence whether or not it is good for society depends on if people are using it towards the benefit and treating it like a concept rather than some sort of a cult.

And did you say "bullied"....huh? The concept of "mutual respect" does not lead to bullying. It leads to a mature and strong relationship between the genders.

"Have sex with them..."

What? Do you realize how this sounds? I don't even know if I should respond to such a crass reference to a concept that is so profound.

"Unless of-course medical science revolutionizes the way livings beings are born and renders them obsolete."

Have you actually read my article? I speak of the balance between men and women and how society requires that both genders live in harmony. Unless you seriously misunderstood a statement in there, I have not suggested that feminism in any way requires exclusion of men!

Aditi - seriously? Do not feed the trolls. They really like the attention (and yes, I understand the irony at work here :D)

Amrita :) I've had the flue for a whole week, guess it is making me delirious. Hehe. Ok, no more beating my head against the wall...I'm taking a deep breath right now.

Respectfully Aditi, as I suggested you in another post...you are too good to remain associated with this rogue called feminism. It is not that, I do not see how good and balanced your intentions are or that how noble you ideas seem. In fact it is precisely because I see you through that I wish such a human being should not be wasted on this filth called feminism.

Even if reluctantly, since there are so many approximations and oversimplifications in your assertions, I would like to share with you the reality on the ground.

What is it, I wondered, that these men experienced to have been turned against an entire gender this way? A bitter divorce, a nagging wife, an alimony settlement that left them seething, a broken heart perhaps, an absent, uncaring mother or just plain prejudice?

You will be surprised that it is none of them. Men(unlike women) are too tough to get bogged down by any of above. The only thing that men fight for is justice and equal treatment.

I think you have heavily undermined the importance of justice in any society and civilization. A sex becomes crime of rape only because there is an "Injustice" attached to it else it is a sexual activity which provides pleasure. Murder is a crime because there is an element of injustice attached to it else it is a simple death.

The issue with justice (or the lack of it) is as grave as that. Feminism (hard or soft) is always looking for ways to justify injustice, using statistics that look more like an advertisement to generate revenue than or a serious record. If you want to look at how men have been systematically abused by society (feminism in specific) please swap men and women in all laws and schemes. If you want to know how that 37% (please correct the 45% data you quoted and do note that it was 70% a few months back) is arrived at, do visit Family health Survey conducted under supervision of some feminists. Firstly, Family health Survey - 3 data sample size

Households 109,041 97.7
Women (age 15-49) 124,385 94.5
Men (age 15-54) 74,369 87.1

Do you see a bias there? Hardliners not to stress their eyes(and brains) too much.

I will provide you detailed analysis of data later on. I am going to be doing a project on domestic violence.

Men are perfectly happy if you make everything gender neutral. They are saying if you can treat as equal to women, we will be extremely grateful.. I am sure Hardline feminists will never allow it to happen. Let us see how long will it take soft wing feminists to realize it. The underlying problem however is that there is no such thing as soft wing feminists. Feminism is one such conglomeration where right wing and left wing forces work together in tandem. Soft wing exists only to save skin of feminism such that hardliners can use them as foothold to launch even greater offensives. It is like Pakistan Prime Minister(a soft, democratic face of Pakistan) firstly complaining of atrocities on kashmiries, then claiming they have no terrorist camps and then promising to eradicate if there exists any, but finally back stabbing using ISI trained insurgents in Kargil.

"Fem"inism the word itself suggests that it is meant to selectively cater to a section of society and any claims that it exists to provide all encompassing direction of the society is not only hollow but also ludicrous. If it was so, let us try to enumerate those countable few things feminism has done for half of the population we know as men, in last say 50 years?

Dear FF,

Interesting commentary. I would like to know how you define feminism. To have a debate, we need to be clear.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Aditi,

I am one of the guys who spearheads Masculinism in India. Let me introduce myself. I am project manager in a MNC firm in Bangalore and even though I am a techie, I like to study cultures and civilisations. I did study the gender relationships in Europe and US in detail. I also did a detailed research on the statistics related to spousal violence, crime, suicide and accidental deaths. I also studied the various kinds of "feminism" (gender feminism, equity feminism, lesbian feminism, marxist feminism, Susan Faludi, Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, Madhu Kishwar, Indira Jaisingh, Brida Karat) and suddenly my mind said, "Oh, here is an opportunity to stop India and world from a lot of unnecessary nuisaince", the nuisance due to Patriarchy and its mistress "feminism".

I apprecciate wisdom of your Mom.

Through this post you exposed your mind to us. We got the data about mind of a feminist with a Mom who believes in balance.

You are a smart person. So, I would like you to just take a look at a few wise words of your own Mom and the interpretations.

----------
Mom: (sufficient pause to let my sarcasm dry up) Tell me something, if someone is sleeping and you want to wake them up what would you do?
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How do you know that Masculinists like me are not doing the same to Indian feminists?

Are not you in denial as well? If women only had a tough time and only a "few men" faced hardship in all history of "human kind", then that represents a denial. If today, 45% of women get abused and only a small minority of men "say 5%" are getting abused, may be I can choose to consider that as your state of denial.

So, if you and other "factions" of feminists are pretending to be asleep, then what do you think is the best way for we the masculinists to wake you all up.

We spend a lot of time working on the cognitive aspects of the whole game.

For us, this is just a game and we wont mind playing it so far as we are winning it.

Please take a step back, just blank you mind.

Then, please look at it just in a different way.

Feminists made a lot of money from their books. Is not it? Do not you think Masculinists can also make a lot of money by writing books (I mean Controversial books)?

Feminists and their radical behaviour in the media is creating space for Masculinists. We are happy to occupy that "noble" space and we also sense some "political power" in near future (Sorry it looks like my greed is driving me!!).

We have done our homework very well and we are pretty well networked. I met a team of our volunteers in NY (which also includes women activists) and I could see their plans in US. They partner with American lobbies and get access to Senate. We have been able to delay "Workplace Harassment" bill at least by a few months now as the "Law Ministry" stopped WCD Minister's draft on this bill and sent for modifications.

The only thing we have to do to the "Law Minister" is to show him the plight of "Cecilio Adorna" and "Azim Premji", who got accused of Domestic Violence by wife of my friend soft spoken Gaurav Nigam. Tripti Nigam accused Azim Premji of giving Dating Allowance to Gaurav.

In DC, Deepti, Sakshi, Amrita, Desigirl and all have seen our colours for last 2 years.

Aditi,

You can discuss with your Mom and ask her how "moderation" can help stop a "Gender War" in India. Please tell her that too much of feminist propaganda, has made common people to start listening to Masculinists. She can surely give you some important tips. Please ask her advice not just for yourself, but also for all "radical feminists" out there.

I understand, today feminists can neither laugh at us, nor fight or ignore us. Whatever they do, they will be slowly giving space to us. Because, it is both Patriarchal Men and also Feminists who are in a state of denial.

--------
By the way, masculinism is not same as patriarchal male chauvinism. Masculinism is all about equality. Masculinists believe that men worked hard to free women, but forgot to free themselves. Society will stagnate and both genders will lose if men do not liberate themselves.
--------
References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_Indian_Family
http://savefamily.org

--------------------------
Ram to Shyam:

I am going to to play Cricket.

Shyam: Ok. Are you going on bicycle.

Ram: Yeah.

Shyam: Be Careful. There is a woman-hole on that road.
-----------------------------

Who needs a soul searching?

a) Feminists (who feel stuck in spite of so many the victories in last 30 years.)

b) Male Chauvinists, who believe women should be kept behind closed doors as sex objects while men protect and provide for them.

c) Masculinist men and women, who are born out of feminists and equity oriented males.
-----------

To Sumanth # 29

Are you able to count? DC is not even 2 yrs old so where the heck would Deepti, DG and the rest be familiar with your invisible colors since the past 2 yrs. Or do you mean that their feminism comes so hardly on you that 1 year with them on DC is like 2 yrs????????

You talk about statistics, numbers and illusionay data....when you cannot even figure out or identify 2 yrs from 1yr....

It is nothing but utter BS

The advice of not arguing is good because in the end arguing is tough job .

Usually the only safe place to make fun off is usually a harassed husband makes good sport for hunting and ridiculing.

My mother however gave me different advice that it is our social reponsibility to fight back when faced with injustice whoever causes.

The case of women giving money to get a divorce seems to be too contrived to seem real.

The reality in family courts is that it is mostly women who demand money in connection with divorce.

But then you said yourself a feminist one can only expect you to concoct stories anyways.

both of us have made our choice on mothers advice

one of us has made the choice of ridiculing people and the other fighting against justice

@bharati: I don't believe you have read all of my articles: every day I make it a point to provide rational and logical rebuttals to each of my commentators. If arguing, as you suggest is a tough job, then I must say I have taken it on with a lot of strength.

Journalism for the longest time has been a means of fighting injustice and bringing issues to the forefront. Satire, humor are mediums used in bringing attention to such issues. But of course I shouldn't expect everybody to understand that, now should I? So if you read only the joke at the end and miss out on all the things I have detailed before that, perceiving it as "ridicule", I will not really try to change your mind. It kinda proves my mother's point: those who refuse to see what is out there, are in denial or very simple, do not want to see it.

"The reality in family courts is that it is mostly women who demand money in connection with divorce."

You have not stated any statistics or examples or supported this claim with anything logical and that alone tempts me to dismiss it.

In my articles I redefine feminism and attempt to disconnect it from the ugly connotations that have for long plagued it because it has been misdefined as an "anit-male" hate-cult. It is not. I deal with men's issues as much as I do with women's issues.

There as many harassed wives as there are harassed husbands. We each choose our battles. Good luck with yours.

Oh BTW, I hate to break this to you but my mother's advice wasn't to give up arguing...it was to give up beating my head against a wall if you know what I mean and so now, I will :)

#24 " 'Have sex with them...'
What? Do you realize how this sounds? I don't even know if I should respond to such a crass reference to a concept that is so profound. "

Could you explain that again Aditi? :ROFL:
No, seriously I didn't get it. Are you saying sex is like rocket science?

@Pankaj: Please read FF's comment #23. He states the following:

"BTW, feminism is good for the society in a sense. It will promote a healthy competition among males. Whosesoever will be easily bullied by women will survive, and further have sex with them and finally pass on genes to next generation...Unless of-course medical science revolutionizes the way livings beings are born and renders them obsolete."

It suggestive that men who support feminism (social. cultural, political, financial equality for women) do for sex...makes it sound like women were just sexual objects and nothing further than that. I didn't suggest that the concept of sex was profound (LOL) but that the concept of FEMINISM was :D

The comment had nothing to do with sex or rocket science. It sounded disrespectful towards women and hence I labled it as crass. It also makes "feminism" sound like an anti-male/ male-exclusion cult which it is not.

Hope I answered your question.