A Threat to the Idea of India

Conversion to another religion by force, fraud, allurement, inducement is a violation of the fundamental right to conscience guaranteed by Art. 25 of the Indian Constitution.

But the people following the monotheistic conversion machines from West Asia (these religions dont seem to have anything else to offer except conversions and irrational beliefs) have different interpretations.

A few states have laws... Gujarat, Orissa, Madhya Pradesh etc... banning forceful and fraudulent conversions. Even if there were no laws, conversion by force, fraud, inducement and allurement are against the law as laid down by the Supreme Court in the Reverend Stanislaus Case. Unfortunately, conversions continue on a large scale... with IMPUNITY! Anyone who dares to raise his/her voice against this illegal activity is quickly branded "Communalist! Hindutvawadi! RSS! VHP!" blah blah blah.

There are Christians in Andhra Pradesh who even go to the extent of saying that Tirumala Temple actually BELONGS to JESUS CHRIST and Hindus have stolen it from Christians... "But worry not, we will soon reclaim it", they warn. It's not just bigots and narrow minded people who hold that stupid, irrational, unscientific belief... even educated middle class Christians. Everyday morning on TV9 news channel in AP, we are shown proselytizing programmes. It's really entertaining... the priest calls a man who lost his leg on to the stage.. he asks everybody to close their eyes and asks them to pray to God... then he asks them to open their eyes... Voila! The guy gets his legs back! Christianity, it's rationality, the power of God and all you see... "Idi maa aesu prabhu daya!"

The problem with Christian missionaries is that they refuse to accept that all religions are equal. They dont believe in the concept of secularism at all.

Sandeep

You will be suprised at how missionaries approach people in major cities. One of their criteria is color of the skin (seriously). The assumption is that dark skinned people are of lower caste and therefore more susceptible to accepting christianity.

Having said that I have seeen many christians genuinely benefit because of changing religions. People who benefit are also more religious than those who do not. One of the counter moves by sangh organisations in many states (like Orissa) has been to replicate the model of the missionaries- Education, temple building, other social support. Two objectives are being met. a. The people are benefitting and b. The missionary impact has reduced considerably.

The third point i wanted to make was that the actual christian population is about 75 odd million and not 30 odd million that is claimed to be. AP/TN/Ker together have more than 35 million christians.

Lastly, missionaries are bad not because christianity is bad. The CBCI was the first organisation to condemn India's nuclear testing. They were condemning us at the same time that the west was condeming us. There are many Indians who oppose weapons, but is the time to organise a conference condemining the nation exactly the same time when other countries are sanctioning you? Also, all of us have our opinions about casteism but missionary organisations have specialised in getting India condemned Internationally for caste based discrimination. I can put up with any amount of condemnation from our own countrymen, but it is beyond me as to why we go to 'white nations' to seek approval/ disapproval of our own good/bad practices. :(

Christian missionaries have provided in the last 50 years what Invader Hindus denied to millions of citizens of this country - education and a sense of self respect
BTW Chandra I am curious,which school and college did you attend ? or are you a gurukul product ?It amusing that many of these hardcore HINDUVTA leaders have had their education in prestigious CHRISTIAN educational institutions and are even sending their children to such schools

"Invader Hindus?" Kela, please explain your comment. Even if you follow the "Aryan invasion" theory, which by now has been blown to bits, your "explanation" would no doubt be highly entertaining! :~)

Kela: Christian missionaries have provided in the last 50 years what Invader Hindus denied to millions of citizens of this country - education and a sense of self respect

Chandra: 80% of kids coming out of these kids are probably upper caste. The catholic church in India is as elitist as some of the upper castes in India.

Kela:BTW Chandra I am curious,which school and college did you attend ? or are you a gurukul product ?

Chandra: Approx 90000 students complete their class X from the ICSE (mostly missionary/ affiliated schools, Total schools: 1500 approx)...
The total student population from Andhra schools alone is more than 600000 (SSC Exam 2002).

I donot have data on how many missionary schools are affiliated to the CBSE/State boards. However, I reckon the tally would not add upto much. Assuming a missionary school tally of 200000, hardly 2% of students of class X would be from a missionary school, this figure is not very different from the population of christians in India. However,i will not deny the contenton that the contribution of quality students by missionary schools is much higher than their population. However, that is also because most of them had an earlier mover advantage.
One reason why higher education is mostly run by Hindus is because there was no such early advantage for missionaries.



rgds

Typo...first sentence should read as

80% of kids coming out of these schools are probably upper caste

Interesting read, Sandeep, and interesting comments following (for the most part). I'd be interested to hear your further thoughts on the "idea of India".

Hmmm..

You never write what is the 'real idea of India'.

Instead the premise of your argument is more about how a Dalit cannot be a Christian. Its like saying- 'Look! Only we Hindus have a right to treat our people so inhumanly. No other religion should take credit for such inhuman and lowly acts! How dare you!'

;-)

Sujai,

You appear to distort/trivialize what Sandeep mentions. No where does he assert that only Hindus have the right to oppress!

Kela,

The concept of invader Hindu is incoherent. I think you need to go beyond your Christian faith to respect others - be they Hindu or Jew, both of whom you have freely insulted in this forum.

Sandeep

Yes, there is discrimination against the scheduled castes in the church. The discrimination and prejudice needs to be fought on all counts - in Hindu or Christian society. I do not think reservations alone is the answer.

The problem with the Indian political system is that it talks a hell of a lot on ending caste based discrimination but does precious little about it substantively.

The key is land reform in rural areas and enforcing the law on caste-based violence. The Laloo's, the Mulayam's, the Karunanidhi's, the Paswan's etc have failed in this regard. Reservations can not replace land reform.

I am not trying to trivialize the issue - but to put it succinctly - it should be land reform, not conversions! The rest follows.

Chandra ,hinduism would have been great if it wasn't hijacked by the Hidutva forces

Dipendra- i don't respect unreasonable ,self-centered people who look down upon others

Kela

Hinduism is not owned by 'Hindutva' forces. The so called 'extremist' response is due to the real/ perceived pampering of minorities.

Why is it that christian missionaries preach that Christianity is superior to all other religions?

rgds

Chandra christian missionaries dont preach christianity is superior,they say accepting christ is the one and only way lol
surely Chandra a man of your reasoning doesn't have to follow in the footsteps of these Hindutva goons.WHat about Adi Shankara and all those great hindu philsophers...their teachings seem to get sidelined by this Hindutva rhetoric

Dr. M. Ezra Sargunam
Bishop, Evangelical Church of India
Second Street, Ormes Road
Kilpauk, Madras 600 010, S India


The ECI church planting movement began in 1954. Though a few churches were
already planted by that time, it was in a village called Porur near Madras
that the first major break-through took place among the non-Christian
community.
I was posted here as an evangelist right after my biblical training in 1957.
I rented a house for rupees ten a month and literally lived amongst rats and
snakes. And the Lord helped me to lead many young men to Christ through my
adult literacy classes.
One night, I was roused from my sleep by the gong of cymbals and the sound
of drums emanating from a Hindu religious procession passing through the
street I lived in. It was Sivaratri (Shiva's night). And hundreds of men and
women were going in a procession carrying their deity. Among the crowd, I
saw some of the young men who were attending my night classes - fully drunk,
dancing before the deity. As I stood by the window, I literally broke down
and kept saying to myself amidst sobs, 'What am I doing in this
village?'...I had thought that these men had become Christians, but their
lives had not changed a bit. Though their physical eyes were now open and
they could read the Scripture and sing Christian songs, their inward eyes
had not been opened yet.
After this, I applied myself seriously to the task of discipling these men.
Precisely a year latter, on the same Sivaratri, the same procession was
passing through my street. But this night over 30 young men were there in my
home taking part in an all night prayer meeting. The break had come at last.
These young men did not join the idolaters. All of them were baptised the
same year in a Hindu temple tank, as a witness to the community. The Porur
ECI Church which was formed with these converts grew rapidly. And today
there are more than six hundred believers in the Porur ECI Church and almost
95 per cent of them are first generation Christians.
It was here in Porur that God gave me the vision of the possibility of
planting a church in every village and town with the affirmation -- if the
Lord could call thirty people out of a village, there must be hundreds of
thousands of people out there, if we could go and systematically evangelise
every village and town. The vision caught on. So...it all began in Porur,
Madras.
What the ECI has experienced during the past forty years or so in discipling
and multiplying churches among the responsive people groups, has become a
model for other evangelism and church planting agencies. No other
denomination which came into existence after Independence has grown so
rapidly as the ECI. The Spirit of God has such an anointing on the ECI
leadership's overall plan to disciple India's responsive population.
I am not saying that we are the only ones out there. There are several other
indigenous and overseas missions, which are planting numerous churches among
various people groups.
For the encouragement and the benefit of church planters around the world, I
am giving here briefly, some of the major factors behind our church's rapid
growth.

from the bbc

An American video celebrates the work of the evangelical church in India.

"In this land of spiritual darkness", it reports, "the Evangelical Church of India and the ECI partnership have laboured together to bring the light of the gospel to this great nation."

The ECI have established 1,500 churches across India, at a rate of one new church every week.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2549231.stm


Chandra: So we hindus are "spiritually dark"??????????????

from the bbc

An American video celebrates the work of the evangelical church in India.

"In this land of spiritual darkness", it reports, "the Evangelical Church of India and the ECI partnership have laboured together to bring the light of the gospel to this great nation."

The ECI have established 1,500 churches across India, at a rate of one new church every week.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2549231.stm


Chandra: So we hindus are "spiritually dark"??????????????

Echoes from Bharatkhand - by Ernest F. Ward - 1908:

Quote from page 50:

"The moral character of many of the Hindu gods is very bad. Their sinful practises are very well known to many of the people, besides being portrayed in books; but as a rule it does not detract from their worship, as the worshipers have a proverb that "whatever the gods may do is not sin". I have seen ruins of temples in Central India on which were carved gods and demi-gods, demons, hobgoblins, fighting heroes and dancing females in a partially nude state. On some of them which we have seen are carvings and paintings too vile to describe ....."

Chandra I thought you said you hated it when people used the western world as a reference point or yardstick,so why contradict yourself now ? It's sad you feel threatened by fools

Kela

I am referring to missionaries comments. The ECI is an Indian missionary organisation.

rgds

Kela,

Really, what's your point?

>>You never write what is the 'real idea of India'.
I've mentioned that subtly towards the end of my post. Apparently, you are more interested in casting stones than trying to comprehend the point of my post.

kela, although you claim to be either a malayalam or tamil speaker, I still can't help but notice that you're best described by pronouncing your name in hindi.

that made no sense at all,Kela means banana and its not your fault you keep dreaming about kela's,you were born that way

Chandra, Christianity has proved to be superior to all other religions and paganisms because it is the only religion in the world that has the benevolence of Forgiveness.
also the ECI is not the spokesperson of all christians

Kela: Christianity has proved to be superior to all other religions

Chandra: Even Hitler thought his race was superior. :-). We know where that one ended. What is the difference between you and Hitler?

you have the missed the point of my post,i spoke about forgiveness.your religion just preaches kill kill kill...i don't understand the hype surrounding the Bhagwad Gita or for that matter the Mahabharata...Krishna tells Arjuna to kill kill kill ...brothers,uncles and all....its a blood lust

As I mentioned in my original post and now reaffirmed by Kela, there exists a superiority feeling of missionaries (and maybe christians). As our experience with Adolf hitler shows, this is a recipe for religious conflict in India. It is as dangerous as the Hindu-muslim divide and the upper caste/ lower caste divide that already exists in society. It is time for christian extremists to back off and not complicate everybody's lives with their extreme positions.
The same hold true to Hindu extremists.

rgds

Correction in 27.....should read as

there exists a superiority feeling AMONGST missionaries (and maybe christians IN GENERAL).

Kela: you have the missed the point of my post

Chandra: So are you saying that christianity is not superior to other religions?

Kela:your religion just preaches kill kill kill...i don't understand the hype surrounding the Bhagwad Gita or for that matter the Mahabharata...Krishna tells Arjuna to kill kill kill ...brothers,uncles and all....its a blood lust

Chandra: The seeds of religious division are always sown on the basis of selective interpretation.

rgds

i guess every religion has to feel it is superior - only then would it be able to attract new ones and hold on the current believers.

i find george carlin's take on religion interesting.

the history of all religions is smeared with blood. whatever the tenets say. as far as my little knowledge goes.

w.r.t dalit-christians - one can see that they are normally better off than other dalits. it's likely they are more educated. it is also true that the dalit-wadas/harijan wadas are outside the village and the discrimination is real. hence the reality that dalit christians at one level are better at another they are as discriminated as other dalits. one just has to read the reports on the mindless violence unleased on dalit-christians at karamchedu in andhra a few years ago.

Chandra and others,

It's useless to continue the conversation with Kela. He's clearly baiting.

Balaji:i guess every religion has to feel it is superior - only then would it be able to attract new ones and hold on the current believers.

Chandra: Exactly. That is why religious conflict happens and you have all kinds of extremists


Balaji:w.r.t dalit-christians - one can see that they are normally better off than other dalits

Chandra:It depends on region to region. Tribals in my region converted 30 years back with zero progress. Success through conversion is not universal. If that had been the case, Africa and Latin America would have been highly educated and successful continents. It is also not surprising therefore that numerous christian missionaries are bargaining hard for reservations for christian dalits.

rgds

chandra

i'd tend to agree that there are regional differences. but in andhra the dalit christians mostly in the coastal region of andhra are better off by and large (at least education wise) compared to say the folks from telangana.

Balaji

Sorry to be bothering you on this. But was wondering if Dalit christians in the coastal districts are better off simply because the population as a whole in the coastal districts are better off than Telengana. On the other hand dalit converts from the northern districts (yerran naidu territory) would also be in the same boat as the dalits of Telengana.


rgds

Kela, is this your MP?


SHRI P.C. THOMAS (MUVATTUPUZHA): Thank you Sir. Tomorrow is 'Good Friday'. It is a very important day as far as Christians are concerned. I find that some of the Departments in the Government of India have compelled their employees to work on this day also. For example, the Customs and Excise Department, just to complete the target before 31st of March, has given a direction that all should come and work on these days, including Friday.

There is also an anomaly, which is found in Kendriya Vidyalayas. For evaluation, the teachers have been called, especially in Bangalore region where teachers have been called to evaluate.

MR. SPEAKER: Do we not take too many holidays in this country?

SHRI P.C. THOMAS : Sir, it is a holiday and a special day. Internationally, it is a holiday and in India also it is a holiday.
So, considering the nature of the day and considering the importance of the day as far as Christians are concerned, I urge upon the Government to give directions immediately, because it happens to be tomorrow, so that, at least, the Christians may be allowed to be given off on this day. I would submit that the Leader of the House may reply to this. It is a very important subject which is concerning the next day, that is, tomorrow and the House is also going to be over today. If an immediate direction can be given, it will help the employees, particularly the Christian employees in the country.

:-) MPs are spending time in Parliament discussing holidays for religious events now.....

Sandeep,

I still would like to hear more of your thoughts about the "idea of India." I'm NOT baiting you, I'm asking a civil question as a westerner who is now a Middle Easterner and who truly wants to understand.

Sandeep: "At no point in its history was India so aware of so many differences..."

Sad. That's what happens when freedom of religion is abused to stop/thwart other religions and other ideas. The secular notion of religious freedoms is abused by all, hindus, muslims, christians, in equal measure. Then you overlay that with caste and racial politics, you've got exponential differences.

You know what, perhaps this may lead to a new understanding where no single religion is strong enough to overpower all others and hijack the idea of a secular India. Unlike what's happening in the US where some say it's a "Judeo-Christian" nation, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Dear friends,

After going through all the comments here, I thought of bringing out some very original ideas you will nowhere find neither in history or social books nor in philosophy or media. These are original ideas and original ideas do not need any reference.

1. People of India all thorugh the history follwed Humanism and never divided humanity based on way of worship. That's why they never even bothered to give their system of prayers a name as religion. They always belived in `ekam sat vipra bahuda vadanti' ie truth is one and wise men explained it in different ways and hence all religions if practised honestly can lead to God. Even the word `Hindu' for Indians was given by foreign narrowminded people who divided humanity based on way of worship and ignorantly claimed to be having monopoly on God and truth. Therefore whatever you call hinduism today is in true terms is Humanism and please let me know if you are for Humanism or for those religions who devide humanity not baed on character but based on way of worship.

2. This Humanism (Hinduism in modern narrow sense) has defined 10 principles of eternal righteousness capable of leading a person to God.

They are Daya(Kindness), Dhriti (Endurance or courage), Khsama (Forgiveness: christians ignorantly claim monoloy on this), Shoch (pioisness), Dama(control of senses), Asteya(not stealing), satya (truth), Ahinsa(non violence), Akrodh (free from anger).

And a person should be judged merely by his Character ie Achaar of these 10 charactertsics of Dharma.

Panths or religions are merely various methods to inject thee human values in society.

All religions of the world have copied these values from Humanism ie Hinduism.

3. Varna system of classification of humans is purely based on natural instincts of humans as we classify elemnts in chemistry in periodic table based on characters. Reason was to recommend the appropriate way of worship to people of difefent temperament so that everybody can Reach Godhead. Intention was never wrong or exploitative. It was just like a Doctor diagnises and recommends medicine based on metabolism of patient. All antibiotics can'nt work on all humans the same way one way of worship doesn'nt work on all people. Such was humanistic attitude behind varna system. varna system nowhere preach untouchability for your kind memoriasation.

4. Present day castims and discrimination started only after Muslim invasion of India. landlords appointed by Muslim invaders exploited the system and created all this nonsense of untouchability. Upto 6th cenury there are lietrary evidence that impurity was considered but not untouchability and even Dr ambedkar accepted the same view.

5. Now tel me if name of Jesus was misused by some christians who burnt alive scientists in mediaval period in Europe, if 3 milion innocent women were killed by church (witch hunting), does it mean jesu was wrong and we should dump jesus in the gutter. If democracy is misused by greedy politicians does it measn we should dump democracy. If our house is elaky does it means we should destroy our house.

No. Though cast discrimination and untouchability is a reality and no reasonable person can deny that. But it is social ill of society and not part of humanism practised by indians from time immemorial.

There are people who associated with foreign invaders when motherland was in crisis. Some converted to islam under fear terror or greed. some didn'nt and became landlords. samething happened with chrsitians who associated with foreign invaders out of greed. These greedy converts try to justify their crimes against humanity by calling Hindus also as `invaders' though it is big lie.

If my house is leaky, I should try to fix it and should not run away from there.

India is the land of humanism since immeorial. There are certain leaks in our house today. Hindus are honestly analysisng the cause of these leaks and trying to fix them through charitable works, reservation and all many ways.

But chrsitains are engaged in widening these cracks by exploiting our weakneses to use it for conversion. Clearly christinity is mainly being spread by crooked exploitation of our weakness and not due to its own greatness. It prooves that conversion is a negative phenomenon and negative will die as soon as our society become aware.

Therefore I call upon all India loves to get rid of propgannda of foreign invaders and their associates. Let's come back home if we have left our hindu home and fix the problems togathers. As we have seen a foreign religion can never eleiminate castims or untouchability. castims exists in islam and Christianity as rampant as among Hindus. Therefore running away from home and converting to foreign religion will never solve the problem. Problem will be solved by digging out Vedas, Upnishadas and Puranas. Let's chalenge ignorant pundits who support castims and crooked missioneries who portray Hinduism equal to castism.

Let's tell the world that `hinduism is humanism' and not castims as branded by imperialist propaganda.

Two more things:

1. All religions have copies everything from this Humanism of India
2. This humanism of India only assures you that you can see God yourslef. rest of religions block ur intellegence an dsay nope u can'nt see God.

I am running 6 year course on God realisation and all are welcome to join.

First Hinduism is not a religion. It became religion coz the upper caste wanna dominate the lower castes. Mughals allowed it to stay tat way which was wrong. Religion is nothin but principles. How can 2 ppl belongin to same religion have diff principles. For example take the case of watin meat. Karunanidhi (DMK leader) openly states this tat hindu is not a religion. Hindu is the name of people livin in country called Hindustan(hey am a hindu too as much u guys are). So first the so called upper castes of hindus who only speak, (I have rarely seen lower caste hindu speakin) shd first make their principles clear. U guys are composed of diff principles joined together fr only sake of oppression. If dalits need their right, they need to proclaim themselvves as independent. As long as they follow missionaries or hindutva forces(read upper caste ppl) they wont get freedom. Decide independently and base ur principles on wats correct. which gives u equality.

First Islam is not a religion. It became religion coz the muslim men wanna dominate their women. The christians allowed it to stay tat way which was wrong. Religion is nothin but principles. How can 2 ppl belongin to same religion have diff principles. For example take the case of contraceptives. Taslima Nasreen(writer) openly states this that Islam is a toy created by men. Islam is the practice followed by bedouins in Arabia. So first the men (like osama) who only speak, (I have rarely seen women speak) shd first make their principles clear. U guys are composed of diff principles joined together fr only sake of oppression. If muslim women need their right, they need to proclaim themselvves as independent. As long as they follow islam or their men they wont get freedom. Decide independently and base ur principles on wats correct. which gives u equality.

First Christianity is not a religion. It became religion coz the white skinned people wanna dominate others. The Romans allowed it to stay tat way which was wrong. Religion is nothin but principles. How can 2 ppl belongin to same religion have diff principles. For example take the case of abortion. Dawkins(writer) openly states that there is no God. So first the whites who only become popes, (I have never seen others become popes) shd first make their principles clear. U guys are composed of diff principles joined together fr only sake of oppression. If non-whites need their right, they need to proclaim themselvves as independent. As long as they follow christianity or the white people they wont get freedom. Decide independently and base ur principles on wats correct. which gives u equality.

funny how chandra tries to hide himself. Live in dreamland. Am a hindu and muslim whether u deny or not. I am a hindu coz I live in India and I am a muslim coz I follow islamic principles.

also wanna add truth is bitter

funny how Lomi tries to hide himself. Live in dreamland. Am an Indian whether u deny or not. I am first an India coz I follow Indian principles.

also wanna add truth is bitter

#39, Man Singh:

I would like to join your cult. It is very impressive. I really like to live in the Wonderland!

But do you really think one needs 6-year course to realize God?

May be you are right. May be, that's what it takes one to become ignorant, stop all faculties of brain, unlearn all the education and reduce one's IQ to zero!

Here is an update for you from the Foundation Against Continuing Terrorism (FACT).

You can now view the comprehensive FACT exhibit (on the ongoing Kashmiri Hindu Genocide) online at:

http://www.factusa.org/totalexhibit/exhibition.asp

There are a total of 31 Boards that make up this exhibit.

Please highlight this online exhibit on your blog and circulate this online exhibit's URL to all your friends - Indian and non-Indian alike, to increase awareness and support for the cause.

Simultaneously, the physical exhibit is being displayed across various cities in North America.

In 2007, FACT is similarly coming up with ASRU (Tears), a comprehensive exhibit on the Hindus of Bengal and Bangladesh . For a downloadable Powerpoint presentation and other relevant material, see: http://www.factusa.org/Bangladesh/info/bdeshinfo.htm

If you would like to help or need more details, please send an email to: contact(AT)factusa(DOT)org

Ruvy,

I didn't imply that you were out to bait me. But for my understanding of the idea of India, please wait for my future posts. You might find what you're looking for.

Cochin/ Thiruvanthapuram: It is called the 'divine retreat', a faith healing centre, but the Kerala police don't agree.

After preliminary investigations, police have now registered a case against the retreat centre on charges of cheating, forceful confinement, causing hurt by poison and dangerous weapons, and destruction of evidence.


Police claim that close to 975 mysterious deaths took place at the retreat centre between 1996 and 2006. On many occasions the bodies were reportedly disposed of without informing the police.


And documents were allegedly forged to make them look like natural deaths.

"There is no such activity inside the centre as alleged by the police or by those people who want to malign us. We are here only to serve the poor," says director, Divine Retreat Centre, Father George Panackal.


The retreat centre was also in the news after a devotee wrote an anonymous letter to the Kerala High Court reportedly complaining about criminal activities including rape and murder at the retreat centre.

The Divine Retreat Centre claims to be the largest Catholic healing centre in the world. Clearly, there's more at stake here than just reputations.

@ chandras posts 42 and 45:

Dont u mods think its personal attack on me. Are u guys sleeping? Mocking others is worst form of arguing.Well I know some people ar emore equal than others.

Lomi

I will accept whatever is the moderators decision. In my view those are not attacks on you. It is to illustrate the fact that every religion has its own problems and it is better one does not attack another religion. More so when it appears that you are ignorant of other religions.

rgds

Lomi, that isn't a personal attack - sarcasm is a double-edged sword.

Lomi,

a doctor refers difefrent antibiotic to diferent people depending upon his/her allergy history or metabolism or body strcuture. same way people with diferent temperament and natural mental set up need difefermnt method to reach Godhead. Its so simple. The doctor who recommentds one antibiotic to all creatures is nothing but fool.

I wonder how come even educated people follwo such fools even in modern scientific age. I can understand people might be criticisng Hinduism's varna system before scinetific age. please don'nt get confused with varna system by untouchability created by landlords appointed by foreign muslim invaders along with some greedy pandits. That has nothing to do with varna system.

Hinduism is not religion you are right. It is father of all religions. It is the only religion that elevates humans to level of angels to associate with God. I offer 6 year rigorous course in God realisation and any seincere seker of God will get through. Best thing about this system of sprituality is that no need to convert to Hindusim and even athiests can reach that level. have courage if you have a clean heart and sincere minds.

Friends Indian religions are based on experiment and scientific cross verifiable evidence while semetic religions Judaism christianity and Islam are based on faith and can not be cross verified.

These guys try to equate Hinduism equal to castims untouchability and sati. This altogather wrong. Sins of landlords appinted by muslim invaders are being put heads of Hindusim it is totally wrong and unecceptable.

Let's chalenge these rascals who submitted to foreign invaders and converted to their religions out of greed terror or ignorance. Upto 7nth century, there was no untouchability in Hinduism. Islam strated attacking India in 7thn centiry and landlordism brought this nonsense as equivalent of Arab slavery to India. Let's bring out the truth. The same landlords today, who associated with invaders like arjun Singh and VP Singh are prpjecting themselves as social reformers and ensuring reservation to these landlords in the name of OBC.

Resrevation should be their to opressed classes but not to landlords. Other then SC/ST those who do not possess any land or bussiness are OBC's irrepective of cast. let's eliminate this poison accumulated for 1000 years of lsavery and glorify our motherland and our cultural values.

I call upon all my run away broithers and sisters also to come back home and let's fix any leaks in our house togather. Motehrland will glow with Tejas ojas and varchas. Let's do our part.

Any one trying to put blame of untouchability on Hindusim has to be cahllenged. Sings of landlords appointed by Muslim invaders can not be put on heads of Hindusim or Bramins as usually done. Daddars and namakharams who associated with foreign invaders and converted to their religion leaving motherland in ditch, need to make realise their folly and traitorship and brought back home.

I can understand Lomi's mind as that of `run away child' always finding faults with his/her paretnts to justify his own mistake of running away from house.

Good luck everbody. Please come home back and let's adore our motherland again.

This article is by far the most Ludicrous and inflammatory in it's assumptions ,I'll tell you why-
1)the author claims all conversions are fraudulent and monetarily induced but hasn't provided any proof,this amounts to libel
2)the author seems confused and makes contradictory statements;on the one hand he claims ,on the basis of some dubious research, that caste discrimination exists among christians but on the other hand he argues that once a dalit becomes a christian he no longer remains a dalit and shouldn't be elgibile for reservation benefits.
Moreover the author has failed to show how conversion to another faith would change the social and economic status of a Dalit vis-a-vis upper caste hindus.Religious beliefs are one thing and racially based caste divisions are another
3)the author points out that of the 20 million christians in India,70% are dalit.Dalits make up between 55-60% of India's over 1 billion population.Do the math and you'll find that dalit christians are less than 3% of the total dalit population of India.Moreover if these dalits were not christians they would still be elgible for reservation .
So Mr Sandeep,what really is your fucken problem?How does this 3% threaten the "Idea of India"?

There seems to be a wave of anti-christian sentiment in DC forums,both among the Hindus and Jews

Chandra: Havent you seen your temples.Many of them depict people having sex with animals.And what about your ganja smoking widow rapist hindu priests.Havent enough of them been exposed on TV having sex with innocent villagers who come to them for blessings for bearing children.And what about your culture of sending young hindu widows to Kashi only to get gang raped by all the temple priests and then turned into prostitutes.In Bihar almost 90% of the men rape their daughters the night before marrying them off.The Hindu caste system is even worse with an entire caste being condemned to prostitution to earn their living.And what about your hindu godmen and women--Chandraswami,Sai Baba,Kanchi Shankaracharya,Amritanandamayi,Rajneesh,that gay idiot who runs Art of Living...the list goes on and on.Your temples and institutions are just breeding grounds of MUCK

Kela:
You took your time to make your point. But you did make your point eventually. I agree with your points above.

Also, the author starts out with the 'idea called India' but doesn't define what it is.

Its like saying 'Indian mission to Moon will destroy the idea of India'. And when asked how? I say, well, I will define the 'idea of India' later!

;-)

Quite ludicrous indeed!

Kela:
When I say I agree with your points above, I mean those listed in comment #54.

You have gone back to your original style in comment #55 ;-)

Sujai,point #55 was exclusively meant for Chandra ;)

Kela: 55

PRIEST JAILED FOR ABUSE
By Mirror.co.uk 03/05/2007
More Top Stories

A PERVERT priest was today found guilty of sexually abusing boys over nearly 30 years.

The Rev David Smith, 52, was jailed for five and a half years after a jury found him guilty at Bristol Crown Court.

The court heard he took advantage of his trusted position to groom and molest six vulnerable youngsters. He indecently assaulted some of his young victims during sleep-overs at the vicarage in Clevedon, Somerset, and during holidays abroad.

Concerns about the vicar were raised twice with the Church of England, first in 1983 and again in 2001. But the two complainants were assured that the matter had been "dealt with". Smith, however, remained free to continue to abuse boys in his parish.

good,all perverts should be put in jail,irrespective of their religious affiliations

Kela 60...

I would agree with that.

rgds

Kela: that gay idiot who runs Art of Living

Chandra: Really!! I am hearing this for the first time.

[EDITED - PROVOCATIVE]

Chandra: about that "healing" centre,I hope they are all exposed,at least Acharya Rajneesh was more honest about what he was doing ;-)

Kela.....63.....


..........seriously?????

absolutely ;)

this is what happens when we have a narrow-minded society .why do you think our country has so many godmen and godwomen ?is it because we are spiritually superior or is just that we are all morally corrupt ?

#67:
morally corrupt ;-)

A point to ponder: Do morally corrupt become(pretend to) priests or do priests become morally corrupt.

I have noticed many rich people reach out to these babas and other Godmen. My dad tells me it is not because of religion, it is because the godmen/women offer various networking and business opportunities at a certain cost...:-) Like a Golf club in the US ...hehehe

Godmen also present babies to those wives whose husbands are are not able to make babies.

school teacher was found corrupt: Should we close donw the schools?
Politicians were found corrupt: should we eliminate political system?
Judge was found corrupt: should we stop all courts functioning?
Police was found corrupt: should we close donw police department?
Army officer was found corrupt: should we close down army altogather?
A religious leaderw as found corrupt: should we clsoe down religious institutions or convert to other reliogions?

Answer is a big No. Vice is part of nature and a civil society has to put efforts to clean the wices.

Mother is sick, we should treat the mother not kill her.

Same way if there are certain negativities pneptrated in the society, we should take corrective action and not run away from home.

As Indians have experimented with various ways of worship for last 10,000 years and found that we can reach God by any way of worship if we have clean heart and pure mind, conversion to other religions is never for spritual reasons. Conversion is always motivated by greed, terror or ignorance.

Let's create a society free from greed, terror and ignorance and stop this conversion nonsense.

Mulla refers Quran to justify raping his own daughters: No other criminal of any religioun did that?

timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1490013.cms

Mom 'helped' dad rape daughters
[ Friday, April 14, 2006 10:43:27 am IANS ]

SINGAPORE: A Muslim father who enlisted the help of his multiple wives to rape five teenage daughters pleaded guilty in one of the most heinous cases of sexual abuse in Singapore, news reports said on Friday.

The 45-year-old man, whose identity was withheld to protect his victims, subverted parts of the Koran to justify incest, Deputy Public Prosecutor Eugene Lee told the High Court.

While conducting religious lessons, he convinced his wives that he had ownership over his children, which included having s'' ex with them, reports said.

Forty-three charges were levelled against the father, who preyed on his daughters when they were between 12 and 15 years old, from December 2003 to June 2005. The charges included rape, attempted rape and aggravated rape.

Two of the girls became pregnant and had abortions.

Justice Tay Yong Kwang on Thursday set Tuesday for sentencing.

The girls, now in the care of the ministry of community development, could not recollect the exact number of instances of abuse.

The incidents "were so numerous that they were hard-pressed to keep count, much less remember the exact specifics of each incident", Lee was quoted as saying.

The man would send one of his wives to tell a daughter to go to their father's bedroom, Lee said. He had s''ex with them even though the girls cried out in pain.

The eldest of the abused daughters reported her father to the police on June 24, 2005. He was arrested the next day.

The bespectacled defendant with greying hair pleaded guilty to nine of the charges. Tay said he will take the remaining counts into consideration in sentencing.

The prosecution asked the judge for a substantial prison sentence. The penalty for rape is a maximum of 20 years in jail and caning. The penalty for aggravated rape is at least eight years in jail and 12 strokes of the cane.

"Instead of providing paternal love and support to the victims, he chose to systematically abuse them to satisfy his sexual desires," Lee said.

The prosecution declined to say whether charges would be brought against the wives who helped him.

While such "contractual marriages" are permitted in some Islamic countries, they are invalid in Singapore.

Ha! Sujai (aka Krish-bhakt) never disappoints. And now he's found a new messiah - kela (moniker's a bit of a let down, but hey...). C'mon brother, praise the Lord and bring the axe down on the heathen 'widow-rapin, ganja-smokin' hindoo dogs. Cleanse the world of them and show everyone how benevolent the Lord is.

Btw, Sujai, are *YOU* hindu? I'd also be interested to see what you name your kids. May be you'll go for some of the biblical names our Indian christian brethren are so fond of. Joseph/Mary? Since you hate hinduism so much, why don't you call yourself Pat Robertson?

And oh, I must congratulate Lomi on those brilliant comments - superbly worded, to the point and clearly indicating a mind capable of rational thought.

The request to the moderators asking Chandra's comments to be edited/deleted was a master stroke, sadly it didn't work (damn you, Aaman!). Keep trying Lomi, very soon you will be writing op-eds on countercurrents.org.

Chandra, Man Singh et al - how dare you even call into question facts set in stone? Sujai, Kela and Lomi have a hotline* to Jesus and the (peace be upon him) Prophet.

* - Open only to those who have submitted to the one and only saviour**. No collect calls allowed. God attended Chicago School, doesn't believe in free lunches.

** - Depending on which salvation plan you subscribe to. Must denounce 'pagan' faiths in strongest terms and participate actively in subverting the same.

Kela, bro you're right on about 'em sissies who prefer pink. Damn, I can't quite remember Samuel Jackson's little speech 'before I pop a cap in the N***er's a**'. Quite appropriate, don't you agree?

Christians as homophobes? OMG! Christians being intolerant? Those damn liberals, they just pretend to be gay so they can provoke us. But we jesustanis are like that only, what to do?

Why you gettin all hot under the collar bro? I just praisin the Lord.

Btw Kela, can you attack someone without frothing at the mouth? Oh, I forget - you've been trained to froth at your mouth all your life. Must have been all those...

...kele!!!

Brother Kela, you continue to hurt me when all I'm trying to do is help praise the Lord. Oh please Lord, show some light to brother Kela who's lost his way among the heathen.

And bro, why the call-centre-employee hate? They're just poor kids working for extra pocket money, no?

...when i see your type(s) i get all rabid...

Understandable. The Lord does say to watch out for heathens.

Keep it coming, brother Kela. So the world can see how glorious the sons of God are. True messengers of peace and tolerance.

Didn't know Sri Sri was into all that kinky stuff. Thought all the naughty ones only subscribed to the true God.

badindianmofo:
I don't know who you are- but I am a bit curious as to why you used religious terms while talking about me- "Krish-bhakt", "new messiah", "praise the Lord", "heathen", "how benevolent the Lord is", "biblical names", etc.

I am an avowed atheist. My interest in names come from linguistic and regional backgrounds and NOT religious overtones.

I have never expressed my love for any religion. Talking against one religion is NOT the same as love of another religion.

badindianmofo:
I don't know who you are- but I am a bit curious as to why you used religious terms while talking about me- "Krish-bhakt", "new messiah", "praise the Lord", "heathen", "how benevolent the Lord is", "biblical names", etc.

I am an avowed atheist. My interest in names come from linguistic and regional backgrounds and NOT religious overtones.

I have never expressed my love for any religion. Talking against one religion is NOT the same as love of another religion.

sorry i can't call you my bro,with a nick like that...u know what i mean,don't you ?
btw you keep referring to me as the son of god,like I'm some prophet or something,mind you some ppl over here won't take kindly to that

sujai,your post #46 had me in splits lol

sujai,though i wouldn't call myself an atheist,I do agree that the institutionalised religions of today leaves a lot to be desired

Anybody doing good work should be appreicated.
Anybody doing bad should be punished.
Therefore no person is absolutely good and none is absolutely bad. It is time space and environment that decide the sate of goodness or beadness wrt to some acts of a creatures.

Hindu scriptures stress these three words Desh(Space or place or country), Kaal (Time) and paristhiti(circumestances) and that's why Hindus are the most liberal and humanistic lot around the earth who allowed a Muslim to be a president, a Sikh a prime Minietr and a Roamn catholic the supreme leader in spite of being 85% in population. Can you Imagine a chief minister of Punajb to be a Hindu? can you even Imagine a chief minietr of Kashmir as Hindu? Can you Imagine any Hindu to be Vatican Boss? never never and never.

This is what a civilised mind does dear friends.
Fanatics have only two choices.Either a person is beliver or non beliver, a faithful or infidel.
Either a person is Muslim or enemy of Islam. Either loyal to jesus or satan ie enemy of Jesus. there is no intermediate stage in a fanatics mind.

let's expsoe who are propgating fanaticism and who are not? Increase in number of fanatics will harm this nation and increase and strenthening of moderate will strenthen the nation.

Let me analyse the Godmans:

1. kanchi Shankara : is the only religious leader who spends at least some money of mutt to run schools and hospitals even upto North east of India where Christian missions have converted upto 90% of Indian to christianity by exploiting their poverty. Rest of godman's never do any such service. I never donated even a single rupee to kanchi mutt and hence have no moral right to absue the person. Government of India never donated even a single rupee to this mutt then how dare we comment on usgae of money? Did ever anybody commented how u use ur hard earned money?

2. Sri Sri ravishanka: Spreading Indian cultural heritage in 170 countrie and I never donated even a single ruppe to him or his organisation till date. he invested more then 100 crore in India he earned from foreign countries? Do we Indian have any problem if some Indian is earning from abraod and investing in india and side by side spreading Indian culture around the globe.

3. Saibaba: having around 2 crore follwoers. rarely took any money from any Indian including me. His overseas devoteed gave him millions of dollors and he invested that in India built a ultramodern hospital, University, music school, vedic etaching school and what not? Why Indians should cry on him?

4. Amma Amritanadamayi: Donated more then 100 crore to tsunami victims without accepting any money from Indians. I never gave her a single rupee though I enjoyed free lunches in her programs. Why should I crticise them?

5. Swami Prabhpada Founder of hare Krishna) : Landed in America with 17 Dollors and 37 cents and created a folloeing of around 2 crore people around the globe and invested around 500 crores in India creating employment and wealth fro Indians : I never even bothered to pay membership fees and enjoyed free food at least 200 times till date : Do I have any right to crticise such great people who are spreading positive Image of India around the globe.

6. Maharshi mahesh Yogi:

have invested around 700 Million dollors in India without taking a single penny out. Opened at least 10,000 maharshi vidya mandirs creating employment for around 100,000 Indians? Shoule we abuse him?

7. Even Rajneesh: Brought aborun 2 Billion $ assets to India. What India gave to Him back?

All these people might habe managed to murder few people, all these people might have managed to sleep with few men or women. So waht? Who is not doing it? Muslims preachers are doing it, Chrsitians preachers are doing it, politicians are doing it, Judges are doing it, police officers are doing it without contributing anythin g to Indian coffers.

then decide logical who is doing better for India. Should we appreciate their efforts or should we condemn them? Let's be rational and logical. Let's be truly athiest and judge the people based on their merit and contribution to nation, culture and humanity and not by nasty propganda being carried out in media by gangs of anti Indian ideologoes of mao, marx macaulye and mohammed.

Why we dun try to become godmen/women and bring billions of dollors to India to help creating employment and education for our fellow brethern.

I am running a 6 year rigorous course to become truly Godmen/women. All are welcome. Let's stop condemning these great souls of India working day n night for India's properity. Let's forgive them fro their minor offences of one or two muerders or slepping with one or two additional women/men?

be practical and grow high.

You're serious, aren't you?

religion is the opium.

what more do u expect from opium aaman?

it's doing its job honestly and seriously.

I am joining Man Singh's cult right away. I want to become a Godman in six years. I am enlightened. All you atheists, burn in Hell!

My course only takes two hours and can be delivered over the Internets - beat that, Man Singh.


Better yet, send Rs 2000/- in unmarked bills to my P.O.Box.#4234

Make sure you have a holy book and a marketing fellow and of course a visa to US;)

OK. Man Singh- Aaman's offer is more tempting! You need to come up with some crash courses!

Indian systems never put a fixed fees for Guru dakhina. It always depends on shradda of the diciple. Our forfathers distributed invaluable welath of knowledge just for 2 handfull of grains as Bhikhsa.

Religion is opium. Yes its as per carl marx for semitic religions only especially islam and christinity that block the minds of its follwers. In these religions you have to `belive' in God while in Indian religions you have to `see' God.

Therefore `belivers' religion is opium but `seers' religion is another branch of scince my friends.

Therefore , even athists can join this course. Just like theer is no crash course for Ph D, teer is no Crash course for engineering or medicine or any other highre learning, I am sorry to say that there is no crash course to become Godman. Those claim to be offering are either ignorants of thuggs (not to offend anybody please)

My friends true Godman never ask money from anybody. People shower money on them.

Please experiment with your spritual heritage before abusing it. We spend 18 yrs in school/college/Univesity to get a professional degree and still not sure of Job.

I am pretty sure that if an English speaking youngman learns Indian religions (Hinduism, Budhism, Sikhism, jainism etc), he is surely earn more then any IIM Ahamadabad MBA.

This is a challenge. Just 6 year course. It is not a joke. best thing is there in GMAT for this. There is fee for it. Seats are unlimited. No reservation. No minimumn educational qualifications other then follwing:

1. English speaking capability to speak around the globe.
2. Determination to learn Indian civilisational values

I assure my disciples that they will enjoy everything best available on this earth and iniverse. they will earn the most. They will enkoy material and spritual worlds. Bhog and Yog togather. But you havbe to be honest. You have enjoy like a human and not like an animal.

Sleep with any number of woman/man but observe the level of pleasure honestly.
Eat any food in the world but be vigilant and measure of pleasure level.
Drink whatever you want and honestly measure the level of pleasure in each act of pleasure.

Then do meditations, prayers and pooja and mesure the level of pleasure you get.

Record your observations in your observation table and see what maximises your pleasure. Your own honestly is the key here.

Follwo rest of the life whatever gives you max pleasure. This is the methodlogy of my training people in godmanship.

Now please let me know what way this scinetific methodlogy is an opium?

Let's use our own mind and never listen to what gangs of Mao, marx, macaulye and Mohamemd call names to Us and our civilisation.

This civilisation respects everybody but respects itself as well. Indians have forgot this second part of my previous senstence. We respect all women and mothers of others. But we somehow try to ignore our own mother and always believe those who try to demonise our mother ion place bravely challenging them. may be due 1000 years of slavery has left some permananet marks of terror on our mind.

Ohh Indians of all religion, arise awake and not stop till your mother is als equally respected along with others'.

tell me some suitable dates when should I start my course to Godmanship.

Is your website up yet? You cannot be a godman without a website nowadays.

What's your USP?

No books, no prophets, no religion nothing is requited to becoem Godman.

You exist. This is teh first truth
You will die : This is the second truth.
You have creator : Don'nt know?

This search of third question is the backbone of this course.

I train disciples to directly call the creator to come to you if he exists.

People have tried. creator came to them. Thye saw him talked to him and clarified any confusions.

Then became Godman after knowing this third truth.

People became mad behind these Godman. They made goiod money, they enjoyed royal worldly life as well.

Therefore no confusion. Any religion follwoers can come, athiests also can come and have a look at creator.

Enjoyyy friends. But unfortunately I don'nt have crash courses. But course is free.

So the Divine force is a 'He'?
Is Godman the same as a Buddha?
Where is the concept of enlightenment?
Doesn't conversing with God mean he is separate from us and therefore we can never be part of him? Isn't that a Christian concept?
And why do we need a Godman?
Doesn't that make it a cult?

You say cult, I say Tom Cruise

Man Singh:
I think you are God (not just God man). I read your comments. I am completely dedicated. I don't need crash course. I will go through the entire six year course. But please tell me one thing. Will I get women? I was always told that Gods and Godmen attract lot of women. Is that true?

Sujai at #100
ya 72 upon fulfillment of certain obligations.
that too virgins

Deppti truth is that God is neither he or she. Indian scriptured refer God as `tat' which is neither male nor female nor napunsak. `tat' is sexless in reality.

But God is absolutely kind and depending upon the intellectual ability of devotess God has no limitations in appearing as `he' , `She' or even napunsak. There is no limitation of God's capabilities and that's why God is Omnipotent. God is capable of everything human mind can think of and even beyond.

Again becoming one with God is a personal choice of a devotee. God never impose his will on devotee by like a compassionate mother always considers convenince of devotee first.

Follwers of Bhakti marh do not want to becoem one with God. they want to enjoy permanent bliss and want to maintain separate identity from God.

But Gyanis and Brahmwadis want to merge with God and God allows that to happen.

`Aakashat patati toyam sagaram pratiganchati' saw Adi Shankara. Which means just like a drop of water merges with ocean the same way atamn merges with God.

God's system is like buffet with infinite dishes. It depends of devotee which dishes he/she chooses.

If Godman are really needed or not?

What's needed and what's not is decided by market. Today market demands Godmen/Godwomen.

Do teachers required?
Do doctored required?
Do MBA's required?
Do politicinas required?
Do soldires required?

let's not be emotional and biased against profession of Godmen/Godwomen? They are professionals like engineers doctors lawyers politiciand professors consultanst stress managers, actors, dress designers etc. Good and bad stuff is is present in every profession Godmen/women no exception.

let's be fair to all. let's see the market, let's see the earning potential, let's see the fees of the courses, let's see the job prospects and decide. Why we expect too much from Godmen/women? They are simply another professionals and earn their livelyhood.

Doctors gives medical treatment and charges the fees. they give spritual treatment and accept Gurudakhina.

Sujai, yes you will get women. Not after killing yourself and committing crime againt humanity as Muslim terrorists do to get 72 virgins as per Quarnic recommendations if you become sucide bomber and kill humanity.

You will get women exactly the way doctors use women for their research in breast cancer and gynecology. As I told you earlier, your ability to observe level of happiness is the key to sucess in becoming Godmen. Just like you do experiment in Physics laboratory to calculate modulus of elasticity for different materials and then decide which material is best to use to design flexible structures. If your observations are wrong, your conlusions will be wrong.

Examiner will fail the student.

This is the same way here. It is foolsig tos ay that sexual activity odesn'nt give pleasure.

It is foolish to say that drinking wine doesn'nt give pleasure.

But how much?

Compare it with pleasure given by meditation and prayers. Check yourself and follow whatever gives ye more. Its so simple.

Everybody can'nt do every experiments. Ceratin things we trust whatever earlier scientists have done and establieshed after many cross verifications. same way some people belive what earlier seeker of pleasure recommended and do not waste their time in fresh experimentation.

Vedic system is made of second type of seers.
tantrik system is made up of first type of experimenters who don'nt belive anybody and wants to cross verify everything by themselves.

Followers of Vedic system can reach upto Agya chakra (where they can control material nature) within 2 years of course.

tankrik system takes around 5 years for them to reach their.

But after Agya Chakra Vedi moves slowly and takes another 4 years but never fells down or deviates from that path.

tantriks if reached Agya chakra level progress very fast further to sahasrar chakrra but always carry a risk of downfall. because after Agya chakra they have to remian highly disciplines and risk of downfall are quite high.

Considering pros n cons vedic system is recomemnded by seers. However they didn'nt banend tantra or put never put tantriks in jail. This was their great tolerance and mutual respect for all ways to reach Godhead.

Next session is beginning from coming Guru Poornima. Good Luck.