Sex And Other Nasty Indian Stuff Online

...the world has judged us to be prudes...

'The World' - the same ones who couldn't tolerate the sight of a human breast (oh the horror!) on national TV?

I was ignoring this story until I saw several Indians in the blogging community use this opportunity to take cheap shots at Indian culture. In the context of Rajiv Malhotra's latest essay on Whiteness and how it impacts Indians, it occurred to me whether this breed of Indian bloggers were displaying the classic symptoms of whiteness - adopting the white gaze to interpret everything Indian in a bid to become whiter than white. After all, Fair and Lovely is only skin deep.

I decided to watch the Gere-Shetty "kissing" video on Youtube.


In terms of the kissing sequence of actions, Gere starts by grabbing and kissing the back of her hand. Even this lingers for a while and clearly interrupts Shilpa's speech at the mike. Gere follows this manouevre by grabbing her upper arms and kissing both cheeks. At this point, Shilpa appears to me a bit taken aback; I thought she rolls her eyes a bit, steels herself but allows him to continue, hoping perhaps it will be over soon.

Little did she know that Gere was determined to do a practical demo of safe sex knowing his responsibility as an AIDS awareness campaigner. How better to demonstrate the risks of contracting HIV than to allow someone to deposit significant quantities of strange saliva on your neck and cheek? that too at an AIDS awareness event? Perhaps realizing that he had not yet made enough of a deposit, Gere essentially gets Shilpa in a bearhug and plants several more kisses in any exposed area his puckered lips could reach. Shilpa tries to escape without making a big deal out of it. At one point she is even bent 90 degrees at the waist but to no avail.

The video catches a couple of guests, one of whom was probably Emraan Hashmi, the noted serial kisser of Bollywood - who appear to be watching indulgently initially but that soon starts to fade into sick smiles. The mad moment finally passes.

More than the actual kissing, this appears to be a case of outright sexual assault.

Last time I saw the world map there was a world with US just one of the continents.

Its between Gere and Shilpa. If she felt she was groped then she is perfectly entitled to take Gere to court. Wish some stranger would have been my knight in shining armour when I groped in a bus and the men just averted their eyes - thats Indian Culture for you.

We women can and have been fighting our own battles for a long time and will continue to do so well into the future, we don't need hypocrites riding on our coat tails when it serves their purpose.

Deepti, are you aware of the latest chummi case that happened in Patna.

Also, I agree completely to your reasoning that while on the surface level, some peck-in-the-cheek or lip-locking drives that moral police crazy, on grounds that our culture needs to be protected and not let down to be eroded in the hands of the Western Culture.

But just go a little deep, students near schools and colleges have easy access to undesirable content and what has the moral police done for that. Get into any internet center [not the ones from Sify/Reliance etc as these centers have filters installed in the machines], and a quick look on the history of websites visited shows that a vast majority of them are 'sex' related websites. Has the moral police and culture saviours worked out a feasible solution to this.

Work on cleaning the interior part and the volume that is getting affected by this adult content in print/press/digital is more instead of wasting time on a Gere-Shetty case. Half of the Indian population doesn't even know who Gere is and the media hoopla is only adding more to this sensationalism.

Doesn't the media have nothing else to cover? I guess so!! Why can't these two do whatever in their bedrooms. Doing it in public attracts morons like us to watch, read and write. Suckers we are.....all of us....

tanay... I am not sure I get your point. sure, if India decides that porn and other items are undesirable in this culture, fine. but I have news for you, college students are going to be getting busy anyway, even if they cannot buy girlie mags near campus. And part of the issue here is that the more you suppress access to certain items, the more desperate people are to get their hands on them.

Sanjay... apparently you have no idea what sexual assault really is. I agree, what gere did was, well, culturally undesirable. and icky. But shetty herself said she was not offended, so leave it at that!

India needs more PROPER sex education.

Deepti... I agree that the west does not know what to do with this latest situation.

When techies go to the US or UK they are taught basic etiquette to be followed. Why is there is no etiquette for foreigners visiting India?

Thank you Richard Gere! Now the United States can stop sending our tax
dollars to the tune of Billions per year to India as I 'm certain they don't
want our tainted money any longer because we think it's perfectly okay for
Richard Gere to kiss a woman in the name of film and theatre.
Yes, India I know right now is returning our BILLIONS to them and demanding
that we no longer send them our tainted money. Now that money can be used
to help our fellow American victims of Hurricane Katrina, the Iraq war, our
uninsured children and our 40 million American poverty victims. Again,
thank you very much Mr.Gere for exposing the hypocrisy of India as we need
our BILLIONS in tax dollars for our own needy Americans!

As far as pressing charges for sexual assault, it is certainly Shilpa's decision. However, lets also keep in mind that there are date rapes, sexual assaults etc happening in America (and other parts of the world) daily where the woman does NOT press charges, indeed makes excuses for the perpetrator. The theory of women "helping themselves" is perhaps little more than a heady mix of female chauvinism and wishful thinking.

There is also the separate issue of obscenity laws in India & it is up to the courts to decide whether those were violated. Not something that Gere-Shilpa can wish away or control.

In general, public groping is swiftly punished in most parts of India via public vigilantism. Delhi perhaps being the one exception.

Hey, completely OTT, but do you think I could get some of those BILLIONS of dollars Sarah is sending to India? I mean, there's only a billion of us so we should all get a slice of those BILLIONS, dont you think? I like the BILLIONS.

As for all the "I'm outraged on Shipla's behalf" going about - let's get real. the only reason this is a "big" issue is because Richard Gere is a Hollywood star. When Mika grabbed Rakhi Sawant everybody basically sat back and enjoyed the show because there was no political hay to be made out of it.

I'm not aware of any "billions of tax dollars" flowing from the U.S. to India. If the reference is to AIDS-related money, then I think it should be stopped immediately. India will be much better off without it.

Even if the "tax dollars" amounted to $9.99, it does not mean that an American man can maul - publicly or otherwise - an Indian woman and get away with it. That too a woman young enough to be his daughter.

yeah not sure what this BILLIONS thing is all about

but Sanjay... listen, I was a rape crisis counselor in the US, so I am aware of what you speak of. But in this case I trust Shilpa to say if she felt she was assaulted. she says she was not. so....

At least get the facts straight. The Mika-Rakhi incident made the national news and Rakhi did file a case of molestation against Mika.

smallsquirrel, here is something shilpa did say

"I understand this is his culture, not ours. But this wasn't such a big thing or so obscene for people to overreact in such a manner," she said. "I understand people's sentiments, but I don't want a foreigner to take bad memories from here."

Seems plain to me. She is clearly admitting that she was kissed/ touched without her voluntary permission. She even rationalizes away reasons for not pursuing this further. I guess when shilpa matures a little more, it will dawn on her that making money & publicity etc does not justify being treated like an object in front of 3,000 truckers.

sexual assault means that the perpetrator was willfully trying to humiliate and overpower and dominate the victim using sex. this was an error in judgment and taste, not an attempt to overpower ms. shetty in an act of sexual domination. you're way off base.

Here is a Wiki definition of sexual assault for your benefit:

Sexual assault is any physical contact of a sexual nature without voluntary consent. Sexual assault can take place by anyone and anywhere. While associated with rape, sexual assault is much broader and the specifics may vary according to social, political or legal definition.

At one point Shilpa was doubled over at the waist trying to escape Gere. Not sure how you define overpower or about who is off base here.

when ms. shetty herself says she was not sexually assaulted who are you to say otherwise.

wikipedia has given a very broad definition to avoid any legal issues. I am not trying to get into a definition war with you. I am not interested. You simply seem ready to fight about something that is really a non-issue. there are other, more interesting facets to this situation.

Many women who were in fact assaulted do not admit to it, for various reasons. Some change their minds later, many do not. Does not mean that the assault never happened. I thought we already covered all this in a previous response. Why are going back in time?

If there are other facets you wish to explore, go ahead. Be my guest. It's a free country.

Isn't this interesting? This kiss (and please, a guy isn't cheating if he kisses another woman on the cheek!) has successfully turned the focus away from the fact that in India people--many people, millions perhaps--have unsafe sex with strangers every day.
They have sex with infected strangers and pass it on to their unsuspecting partners because they were in fact *cheating* on their spouses. They do this furtively and secretly...and they die. And they kill those to whom they are married. They should not have to die but they do, simply because they were not safe.
This is a serious topic and perhaps the moral brigade so affronted when a man kisses a woman on the cheek in public, might remember that the audience itself were no pious virgins. They were truck drivers who do much more than kiss women on the cheeks.
And then, of course, there is the hypocrisy as I pointed out on another board. Every day, millions of Indian women and girls get groped and harrassed as they go about their lives. Let's have some effigies burned for them, take out some processions about what they endure on a daily basis.
Unlike Ms. Shetty they are not financially secure, modern women living exciting, international lives. Perhaps that's one reason not to care.
The other, of course, is (how much do you want to bet?) that a large percentage of the effigy burners are the same people doing the groping and the molestation.

Sanjay - a) the Rakhi-Mika incident became national news because SHE made it national news. Nobody displayed a tenth of the outrage Gere has provoked.

b) If you could take your eyes off the color of Gere's skin/nationality, you'd be able to actually hear what Shilpa said categorically and severally i.e. her defense of Gere and his actions, references to his culture or no.

c) Jawahara makes an excellent point in that all this brouhaha people have completely lost sight of the original point which allows you make comments like #11 which have more to do with scoring a point than any rational thought.

d) That one excerpt of hers might be twisted to your way of thinking but she made several other statements too to the point of boredom that she felt neither victimised nor molested nor did she feel this publicity was warranted (your big point on her "silence") and she wished everybody would leave her and Gere alone.

e) Women who do not complain about sexual assault do so for reasons of shame,lack of proof, witnesses, family constraints, financial constraints, etc - I fail to see Shilpa falling into any of these categories.

f) He did not "treat her like an object" (if you want to go that route, I suggest you sit on dharna outside every single Bollywood film producer's door and throw in about half the political class as well), that incident took place while they were talking to the crowd about the spread of HIV. He didnt suddenly go mad and decide to make a play for her.

etc etc etc ...

WHERE SEX AND AID TO INDIA MEET :-)


RANDALL TOBIAS: "A lot of the cuts that were made are cuts in programs where we've really gotten to the point where - India, for example, is a country that has an economy that's growing by 8 percent. India has become a donor country"

RANDALL TOBIAS: resigned as deputy secretary of state one day after confirming he had called "to have gals come over to the condo to give me a massage." There had been "no sex," Ross quoted Tobias as saying, and that recently he has used another service, "with Central American gals," for massages.

Tobias, who is 65 and married, was director of U.S. Foreign Assistance and administrator of the U.S. Agency for International Development

Amrita: Thanks for a good try but you have failed to make your case:

(a) Rakhi was at Mika's private birthday party at the time of her incident, not onstage at a public AIDS charity event. Even equating the two contexts is ridiculous. That Rakhi made it national news only speaks volumes for her guts, maturity and self-respect as a woman. That she pressed charges against him shows that she values her dignity and wants everyone to know it.

(b) I suggest you go back and re-read what shilpa has actually said. It is she who is clearly requesting Indians to overlook this incident by virtue of his foreign-ness. At the very moment of her powerlessness on stage, Shilpa said 'yeh thoda zyaada ho gaya' ('this was a bit much') to the truckdrivers. By raising the skin issue, you are helping me make my point that many Indian bloggers are defending Gere because of the whiteness phenomenon.

(c) Jawahara's comments are irrelevant, even ludicrous unless he can show that molestation did not take place or that no Indian obscenity laws were broken. Until then his position sounds like someone saying "because murders still happen in India, Gere has a right to go on stage and pull a gun on Shilpa". Two wrongs do not make a right. Also, I'm not sure what is your problem with comment #11. The incidence of HIV infection in India is quite similar to that of the U.S. and way lower than Africa's. I can provide exact stats if you have the stomach for it.

(d) I've read several of Shilpa's statements and posted excerpts where relevant. If you feel that something has been "twisted", I suggest you try being more specific.

(e) Shame, family constraints, financial constraints all apply to Shilpa. Moreover, as an AIDS activist, she may have decided the larger cause was worth a little groping. Neither of us is privy to her personal situation so there is no point in going too far down this path.

(f) Confused by your last point. Gere did not treat her like an object but its ok anyway because bollywood and politicians also do something similar? This almost sounds like Jawahara.

Shilpa does not suffer from financial constraints. Remember she won that Brit show? If she isn't pressing charges why is it such a big deal? I agree with Amrita, SS and Jawahara enforce stricter laws against eve teasers and rapists , get the public to be more proactive when they see a woman getting molested then talk about defending our culture.

I'm not trying to mix the issue here but when Archana Pandey wasn't allowed to lodge an FIR which is her right and we Indians are letting the issue slide into oblivion what does that say about our moralistic accountability towards maintaining our cultural values?

Our bigger worry is AIDS and not some untamed kisses. We Indians are having unprotected sex and we need our sex workers to understand the gravity of the situation and say No Condom no sex to their customers.

Sanjay: "you are helping me make my point that many Indian bloggers are defending Gere because of the whiteness phenomenon"

Chandra: Absolutely right! If this guy had been manikawalu from Republic of Zanzipatta in Africa, the comments would have been different. Having said that, I feel even debating this issue is such a waste of time.

Deepti:when Archana Pandey wasn't allowed to lodge an FIR which is her right and we Indians are letting the issue slide into oblivion

Chandra: Correct. Therefore let us not waste time giving space and time to these movie stars and instead try doing whatever we can for common people. Only two days back a woman was raped in Palika bazar, day time. Our media does not bother to cover it extensively , our protestor/lawyer friends dont file cases and there is no debate amongst our blogger friends.
:(

First of all, Sanjay, I am not a he. Unfortunately that's not the only thing wrong about your post.

I find it interesting that most of the effigy burners/demonstrators and even the affronted people on here are men. And the women on here, at any rate, seem to agree that too much is being made of this.

Until and unless Ms. Shetty registers a case of assault (or molestation as you call it) against Richard Gere, I don't see what anyone's problem is. Did she say she was molested? No. She just said something to the effect of he was not aware of our culture. Btw, this is the culture where front benchers whistle like wolves when Ms. Shetty and others dance around in wet saris while their co-stars do much more than kiss them on the cheeks.

And, if she, as an independent career woman, financially secure and vocal is *so* ashamed that she can't do so (as your contention is) then, perhaps we should examine ourselves as a society. If she is too ashamed to complain then what more can be said about the other voiceless, faceless victims of actual assault and rape.

What are the Indian obscenity laws? They are against obscenity and pornography. And, to me, kisses on cheeks and hands do not qualify. Perhaps to you they do. But even that is immaterial since we have to see if those kisses qualify for a reputable judge.

For the record I am against obscenity and blasphemy laws. There should be laws against real crimes, like assault and rape and murder, etc. etc. Not against what offends someone (kissing or blasting a religious figure of any kind) because there is no end to what offends people.

I find (and many others do) the creation of a storm in a teacup about a kiss being allowed to overshadow a real issues like AIDS in India, must more obscene than a damn kiss.

I find hypocrisy in India, where people openly harrass women, obscene.

I find focusing on film stars kissing and being kissed obscene when we could be talking about so much else.

Finally, Sanjay, did I say that HIV rates in India are higher than anywhere else? That's not even the point. The point is that HIV and AIDS exists in India, passed along the country by sex workers and the men who have sex with them.

Unlike in the US they are not educated and are not aware of what to do to prevent the spread. Whether there are a million cases or ten, it's too many. And, I for one, don't want Indians dying horrible deaths because the discussion turned away from safe sex to whether one film star assaulted another when he kissed her on the cheeks.

The fact remains that there more than 5 million people living with HIV in India according to the Lancet study. And these 5 million are potentially infectious to others unless they and their partners are educated about safe sex.

While Africa remains the worst hit by AIDS, 2/3rds of those in Asia with HIV are in India, according to UNAids. This is not a small problem no matter what the *rates* are. This is not to tally who has higher infection rates. This is about the fact that a problem exists but the discussion about it has been hijacked by someone else.

jawahara... (standing and clapping)

#23... agree with Amrita, SS and Jawahara enforce stricter laws against eve teasers and rapists , get the public to be more proactive when they see a woman getting molested then talk about defending our culture.

I would disagree...our society (atleast the one i have lived in my 30 odd years) is in fact highly sensitive to such issues. The police inactivity is not something for which society should share the blame. If police inactivity could results into gross human right violation as depicted in case of Nithari, you can easily imagine the plight of a comman man or woman. ( Police may have their own excuses like poor infrastructure, lack of resources and UN Clout in case of Archana Pandey and I would not would to discuss them here).

Finally, To Jawahara, it may seem exciting enough to make a statement that people who violate laws themselves(in your language "front benchers whistle like wolves when Ms. Shetty and others dance around in wet saris") are the ones who object to Shilpa and such issues. May I dare to object to it. Please give me data or else let us not make sweeping statements.

Hardy, can I just say the term "eve teasing" is one my pet peeves? Teasing implies something lighthearted and relatively harmless. Let's call it what it is: at the very least, harrassment and sometimes amounting to assault.

Believe me, exciting is the last word to come to mind about this. Yes, it's true no one has done a study about the correlation between the protestors and the harrassers. You got me there. I can only go by anecdotal evidence, having once (when I was much younger, just out of my teens) being inadvertantly caught up in a similar moralistic demonstration. I was at the edge of this demonstration in Allahabad, and still managed to get groped, pinched and thoroughly harrassed before managing to go home pissed off and in tears.

Now that isolated incident is not definitive proof of anything but ask any Indian woman or girl what she would think when she sees a large, loud group of men.

If I am wrong, that's fine. It's just my theory and I *think* (not know, not 100% sure) that I am right.

Hardy... I have to say, Indian culture, and in fact MOST cultures are not sensitive to molestation and/or rape. People tend to just watch while some poor girl is getting groped or harassed and they do nothing. I, myself, was groped more times than I can count in Mumbai and I even had some sick dude push his crotch in my face on the train while I was sitting and he was standing. Many saw it and no one did a damned thing. And I have had my breasts grabbed in Bangalore too. All my Indian girlfriends have similar stories to tell. And while I did not get groped like that in public in the US, I know that I helped women who had experiences where people witnessed their rape but did not intervene to help them.

I think it's funny that a guy is telling women that society is sensitive to these things, when women are telling differently.. and you still won't listen.

Oh I see ,when smelly ,black Indians chase skirts its called "eve-teasing" but when the greaseball Italians do the same it's all dandy

kela... you don't make any damned sense. you really do know how to just simply make shit up, hunh?

have you been to Italy ? can you walk the streets without being accosted by a wannabe stud ?why is that laughed off but Indians doing the same termed perverse?

have I *BEEN* to italy???? Per favore... che stronzo.. I AM italian, you @#(&)@#@. So I spend a huge amount of time there. Look at my profile. And yes, anyone can walk down the street without being molested. Of course I am sure it happens, like in any other country... actually the largest issue in Italy is political corruption, not manhandling. We also have a problem with the Roma and pickpocketing.

JW and SS I think you did not get me. I am not denying that their are miscreants in the society. What i was objecting was on how you could generalize it to every male in society. It takes one bad guy to go after 10 girls. But that does not make 10 guys bad. How could you infer that the guys who troubled girls are the same ones who object to Shipla and such incidences?

I am sorry, I am yet to find out a an incident in my life where such behavior(as have been narrated by you) has been condoned. People definitely(and I assure you) have strong opinion about it.

It is another matter that people would not want to get involved in any issue if they fear that the perpetrator is dangerous or that they can not overcome it easily. But then that is general public apathy. I once opposed some goons in a bus for the seat to an elderly whom i did not know. Not a single person(woman and men inclusive)came to support me(and that elderly) against those goons. What can anybody infer from that? Should I infer that the remaining did not care about elderly? That would naive inference.

How did Italy get into the picture? Yes, harrassment is a problem in Italy...but there is no Italian in this story at all. I am puzzled by this. I don't know any woman who was harrassed in Italy who laughs it off. Still if it makes you feel better so be it.

SS, after completing our masters, a friend and I went to India for 6 months. The second day in my hometown (to my eternal shame) as we were walking on a bridge, this guy hops off a scooter, walks over to her and pinches her breast. Before we could react he jumps on the waiting scooter and takes off, laughing. We screamed at them and shouted (this was a crowded, busy place) but there was no reaction...except perhaps some amusement and satisfaction at her being accosted.

I then wrote an article for the local newspaper, which covered the issues women faced in the town, using my friend (with her permission) as an example.

There was quite a furore about this. Not because a guest to our country was accoste or that women could not walk safely in the town...but because I used the word "breast" in the article. How obscene! I even had an "uncle" who had not visited for years, come over to tell me it was not seemly for girls to write of such things because after all, it is their "izzat," that gets besmirched. "just let it go," he said.

So, it's horrible if a woman talks about her *own* body part without using euphemestic language. But if a man assaults her, that's something to be hidden away. Other long lost weirdos tried to visit on some pretext just to see the white girl who had been pinched. one of them was a college professor. Sick!

Mind you, my parents were nothing but supportive of my writing which I am grateful about. What was more heartening were formerly shy women and girls who came out of the woodwork and said it was high time someone talked about it. The editor of the paper then ran a series of my articles. Of course, many years later, nothing substantive has changed there *sigh* but still.

But this is the mindset. Even about assaults and harrassment....these men (I don't mean all men or all Indian men) just *these* men decide what is right and what is not. This is an issue about women's bodies and their rights and their personal space (ok, in this case, one film star's rights) so why are the people so upset mostly men? The same men who don't seem that perturbed about people dying of AIDS, of women being raped and harrassed every day?

Let's turn this into the same language: is this uproar just because he was a white man kissing an Indian woman? By golly...if anyone's going to kiss (or harrass or molest for that matter) an Indian movie star it's gotta be an Indian man. Wtf?

These are the people who can and do ignore real issues while going nuts about imagined insults that have nothing to do with them.

JW and SS I think you did not get me. I am not denying that their are miscreants in the society. What i was objecting was on how you could generalize it to every male in society. It takes one bad guy to go after 10 girls. But that does not make 10 guys bad. How could you infer that the guys who troubled girls are the same ones who object to Shipla and such incidences?

I am sorry, I am yet to find out an incident in my life where such behavior(as have been narrated by you) has been condoned. People definitely(and I assure you) have strong opinion about it.

It is another matter that people would not want to get involved in any issue if they fear that the perpetrator is dangerous or that they can not overcome it easily. But then that is general public apathy. I once opposed some goons in a bus for the seat to an elderly whom i did not know. Not a single person(woman and men inclusive)came to support me(and that elderly) against those goons. What can anybody infer from that? Should I infer that the rest of people promote elderly abuse? That would naive inference.

I saw the video. Thanks for putting up the link here.

Hmm.. I wish there was more action. I mean- since it was AIDS awareness program, Richard and Shilpa should have should have shown us how to use a condom, and also how to have safe sex.

What the heck! Shilpa is such a prude. She wants to be considered an international star, I think she should be used to a little smooching and petting.

I would definitely like to see more action- by intervening and being prude we spoil all the fun.

But please make sure it is not telecasted on news where kids watch it. As long as this is for adult audience (which is the case since it is AIDS awareness program), I don't think there is any problem with consensual groping, foreplay and even some live action!

Those who are interested in moral policing should instead make sure that TV channels do not broadcast gyrating and sexual innuendos from Hindi/Remix songs during prime time.

There were 94000 rapes in the United states in 2004

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/forcible_rape.html

The related Indian tally is 17650. The equivalent US number would be 370000.

http://ncrb.nic.in/crime2005/cii-2005/Table%205.2.pdf

I have not seen any reliable data on reported vs unreported rapes in India. That should push the figures to may be 10 times or even more than the current Indian figure. Either way, our friends in the US better watch out. :-)

"I am sorry, I am yet to find out an incident in my life where such behavior(as have been narrated by you) has been condoned. People definitely(and I assure you) have strong opinion about it."

well we just told you about these incidents and yet you deny them. how can you assure me, when I have DIRECT evidence to the contrary.

No one generalized and said a thing about "all men do this " or "all men are responsible for that" Neither one of us inferred any of the things you say we did. It's astounding where you get these things from. It's like between you and Kela you pull your own conversation out of thin air

SS: well I think it might rain today

Hardy: MANHATER!

Kela: you, as an overprivildged white person, would manage to blame the Indian for the rain, hunh?

#39... you are try to put words in mouth...Much of what you have said does not reflect that people around you condoned it...it tells you about general public apathy and nothing more...The apathy is the norm of day and what you suggest is just one of the numerous ways that it got revealed...

If you want to make your own conclusions please help yourself...

Secondly you have not responded to the crux of my objection i.e. how do you say the men who object here are the same whistle blowers or eve teasers.

Hardy, I'm sorry if you think I am generalizing this behavior to all males. I apologize if I gave you that impression because that was not my intention.

I was (and even in my previous post, I said this is not all men, or even all Indian men but *those* men) talking specifically about those men who take to the streets for demonstrations, burning effigies, taking out processions and behaving like hooligans. And even among them, yes I am sure, most of them are probably not harrassing women. But I am sure that some of them out there protesting are the same as the ones who actually do such things.

We've all lived in India for long enough to realize that one procession might have 100 actually committed people and a bunch of those who just want to create hungama. And yes, I like you would like to get some numbers about the correlation. And, if they prove I am wrong, so be it.

Obviously all men are not harrassers and all women are not victims, thank god.

I am not talking about men using other means (writing, discussing, talking about, organizing peaceful protests, appearing on TV) to get their point across. I might disagree with them but I think they have the absolute right to protest.

Also, don't forget that the effigies being burned were not just that of Gere but also of Shilpa the alleged victim. So tell me, is this really because they were sympathetic to her being harrassed or some strange kind of retrogressive thought about Indian women's bodies belonging not to them...but to Indian men? Even if not that exactly, some thought close to that.

Hardy, perhaps you and your friends and family do not condone such behavior but it would be turning a blind eye to say that Indian society at large still does. And really, all due respect, but the only people who can truly talk with some authenticity, about what it really is to be a woman or a girl in India are women and girls: what it's like to walk on the streets, to change your body language to virtually make yourself invisible, to feel a hand make its way down your body as you're squished on a train or bus, to feel some strange man's groin pressed against your shoulder....the list goes on (and these are the milder forms of harrassment).

And yes, there are issues that only men can really talk about with any authenticity.

This does not mean that we cannot be empathetic and sympathetic to each other. I don't know what it's like to be a man and men don't know what it's like to be a woman.

So, if there are enough women saying, let's focus on some other issues, some real issues...perhaps men should at least listen.

hardy... actually that was jawahara's point and not mine, so I can't respond for her. I actually think you might have mistaken much of what she has said and attributed it to me.

That said, I do agree that this has gotten way off topic.

SS #39: Lol. You should do a whole piece about conversations on here.

Hardy, please read who said what, do the simple courtesy of reading their response and then write something instead of saying the same thing over and over again. I have directly addressed your question in my posts. I don't want to repeat myself ad nauseam so if you find something new let me know.

SS:you're the one whining about personal attacks yet never miss a chance to take a shot at me,besides you're attempts at caricaturising me are not funny at all.
You said Indians were insensitive about eve-teasing thats when I made a parallel to Italy where things are even worse but is strangely accepted.I've seen programmes on discovery/travel where they've shown these guys going after the women openly in public but no one condemns it.Here in India when guys do the same its termed eve-teasing.And Deepti says India men are prudes.Seems kinda contradictory to me.Someone spoke about the Rakhi Sawant-Mika episode,I wonder if Rakhi would have complained if it was Richard Gere who kissed her.Maybe its cologne.

My take on Why I have objection to Shilpa not objecting to Gere...

1. She knows what Indian culture and values are.
2. She knows she is in front of camera.

So if she does not object to it later, it in turn implies that she condones such kind of public display of affection.

It is fine till there. Then, We all know and even Shipa has admitted that she was not aware of what eventually happened.

So talking any clues from that(because if this trend continues it will certainly become norm) suppose a Indian guy goes there and does that to Shipla or one such being. Can anyone assure that the guy will not be pushed behind bars for outraging the modesty of woman(or Shipla)? And then you will come up with yet another set of stringent laws for violation of modesty of woman but continue to parade that woman have the right to judge and decide about their own body. Not only that, such stringent laws will take toll of many innocents who will start getting exploited by a bunch of hooligan women in the name of these stringent laws.

Yeh to who baat ho gayai..."Chit main jeeta pat tu hara".

As for logic comparing Shilpa in movies to Shilpa on Stage, I think one goes to movie with a well understood mindset that such things are limited to screen and can not be replicated in real life, but live stage demonstration backed up by NOC (no objection certificate) is good enough to tell you that such things can be practiced in society.

And Deepti says India men are prudes.

Mr Kela, read my post again, I have inferred otherwise.

kela.. what you are doing now is called projection. I try not to respond to your personal attacks on me, which have involved my ethnicity, my husband, my religion and even my UNBORN CHILD. so please, I am sorry if for once when I talked back you got offended. And oh, you didn't think it was funny? As for the rest, get some evidence. I am sure you have never set one foot in Italy. I have lived there. What you say, despite one shady reference to some Discovery documentary, just doesn't hold water.

Yes,sorry Ms Deepti ,i read your post again and it was actually a nice post,simple and sensible seems to be your style.Well my comments were directed more towards the responses.
The fact is Indian girls are prudish and that why Indian men go around pinching boobies and butts.where i live the girls are very liberated and we don't have such problems here,Its only in the cow-belt areas and Southern states where Hindus are a majority where such things happen a lot

SS: i've seen this movie too,i frgt the name,this american writer comes to Italy after a failed relationship and they have a street scene where these wannabe studs chase her through the streets so she runs up to a well dressed man(in a suit) and requests him to pretend to be her husband which he does and then he invites her over to his place somewhere by a beach and she goes and they have a great time ,great sex ,she thinks she loves but then later realises it was just a one night stand thing and she lives in this beautiful old house that's she renovating which she bought with all her savings.......have you seen the movie?

PS i dunno abt other things i said but I'm sure you'll have a beautiful ,healthy child :)

Oh that's right Kela, blame the victim.

I, for one, refuse to respond to you any more. It is clear that you have no intention of carrying on any kind of reasonable conversation. What exactly do you think your contribution is? Are you so childish that negative attention is better than no attention at all. How sad. You really could contribute something meaningful, because it's clear you are well read probably very intelligent...but it's clear you are happier being rude, demeaning and just plain old ridiculous. cheers and good luck with your trolling.

Hardy - many unmarried indian girls don't report cases of rape for fear of social wrath and not finding a groom ,does that mean they enjoyed the RAPE ?

SS i didn't blame the victim dumbo.Look at the orginal post where Deepti talks about repressed men .I've come across many newspaper reports of such men taking out their sexual wantings on hapless bovines.

#51...I am not sure if I got you. Do you mean Shipla did not object due to some kind of fear?

#53 what is Indian(hindu) culture ... Kamasutra,Khajuraho,Konark...Bharatnatyam (devadasi or temple whores dance).......noted Kerala writer(maybe VM basheer i'm frgt the name)had described how he and his Brahmin friend used to go to the river while women were bathing since the lower caste women were obliged to bare their breasts to the higher caste Brahmins.Low caste women couldnt cover their tops in front of a Brhamin.

I was not referring to caste semantics of ancient Hindu culture...I was referring to culture adopted in general in India by many in India and their associated objections...

Culture is byproduct of society and every society has culture and those objecting ferociously have their own society and culture.

Even when I am personally least affected by Shipla and Gere episode, I am just trying to put of a point from the perspective of those people who are objected by the stance taken by Shilpa and her accolades.

the three K's are very much part of Indian culture,nothing castist about them.

the three K's are very much part of Indian culture,nothing castist about them.
and what do you mean by ancient hindu culture? isn't culture passed down by your parents ?

Culture is not a static thing. Yes it passes from generation to generation but it also reforms itself as per the needs.

A culture that is rigid and is out of its era seldom survives unless it has something really useful to it. People believe in culture because they believe it is good for them and it gets refined over period but yes Culture is a strong binding force too.

I do not think people here on internet are any smarter than those who have strong belief and faith in their culture. If people who hold opinions contrary to prevailing culture among some people, they have to justify how culture followed by others is incorrect and how their own culture is superior.

So, What is your point?

Hardy if you read carefully what Deepti has said here you'll see sexuality has and is still a part of Indian culture.Just because a handful of goons and some publicity seeking lawyer thinks otherwise Shilpa Shetty is NOT Obliged to respond to them.If they don't like what's shown on TV switch the damn tv off or switch channels .
How come these hindutva moral brigade don't talk about razing to the ground Konark,Ajanta-Ellora,Khajuraho,kamakhaya temple or even banning Bahratnatyam.
Besides I strongly object to RSS walking around in Chaddis ,you can take a peekaboo through their chaddis when they are seated,especially old men with skinny legs,highly insulting to my morals

Sorry brother, it is not as easy as that...

It probably is not a matter of watching a one off show, but the one in which you are setting up a new trend for the rest to follow. Let us not equate the two.

What if others try what Gere did to Shipla. What is the guarantee that a guy may not land himself behind bars for a seeming innocuous act(to him) because he saw it was ok for Shipa and Gere to be so. And That is where culture comes in. You do not try things which you know for sure may wreck the havoc and that is how Shipla crossd culture boundries by condoning it.

whats wrong with kissing on the cheek among friends ?What if Gere and Shilpa decided to enact a Khajuraho style pose ,would you have objected?if you do you're anti-hindu and anti indian culture.

who's setting what trend ? as far as i know Shilpa was a has been bollywood actress who wasnt getting roles because of her black skin.Are you such a gullible fuckin idiot to think she has set a kissing on the cheek trend ? in many cultures in India kissing the cheek of a lady is the way of greeting and also Indian culture is NOT only cow belt hindu culture,maybe you need to travel a bit and see things first hand.

??? BTW, from what I had gathered so far was that the objection had mostly do with appearance on camera and not otherwise. In those parts of India from where the protest is coming, I do not think kissing Gere style is kissing is any means of greeting a woman. I do not think even those people would be least bothered by anything Shipla does to Gere(or vice versa) in her privacy.

I do hold to TV channels(and other media) equally responsible for broadcasting it day in day out.

You have the liberty to downcast COW belt Hindu culture to the same degree as they have to downcast your culture. It is just another perspective.

If their culture does not represent Indian Culture, your culture fails miserable in representation of Indian culture too.

??? BTW, from what I had gathered so far was that the objection had mostly do with appearance on camera and not otherwise. In those parts of India from where the protest is coming, I do not think Gere style kissing is any means of greeting a woman. I do think even those people would be least bothered by anything Shipla does to Gere(or vice versa) in her privacy.

I do hold TV channels(and other media) equally responsible for broadcasting it day in day out unedited to the masses.

You have the liberty to downcast COW belt Hindu culture to the same degree as they have to downcast your culture. It is just another perspective.

If their culture does not represent Indian Culture, your culture fails miserable in representation of Indian culture too.

anyways good thing about this incident is that it has brought into focus archaic indian laws that need to be changed and change is inevitable

BTW, You talked so much of Khajuraho. I have not seen Khajuraho for myself. But, from what i have heard it is more of educational stuff pertaining to sex...Exactly What part of it prescribes that it is ok to involve in Gere Style Kiss in front of 3000 odd audience?

As about objection from females, I think Gill Vs Bajaj episode did reflect how serious things can turn into, even when according to Gill it was a friendly pat. You never know how can a woman react even in a casual interaction.

the khajuraho temple has lots of carvings depicting man on woman ,woman on woman besides others,all left to your imagination to interpret.
besides ,gere and shilpa were educating truckers about aids-how you wouldnt get aids by kissing.if only they followed ancient indian culture and went the whole way.

Hardy #67: Yes, so you never know how women will react (we being these hysterical, touchy creatures after all) but somehow *you* know how they are feeling. Quite a talent.

And Khajuraho is beautiful but really, if you're, trying to say that it somehow was trying to educate people you're way off base.

It is an unabashed, healthy and open appreciation of sex and sexuality. And a kiss on the cheek, fully clothed, in front of some people is tame compared to the three people standing on their heads having sex with 8 people sculptures. :-)

:) woman on woman too?

hey come on they were doing it just for the entertainment of people around...that AIDS and and KISS connection is just concoction (at best imagination) of one of us...

Hardy - [EDITED] ? but i bet you would have kissed her cheek

#69. Frankly speaking the day I saw it, I thought Gere had it...Shilpa's views had not been aired by then...

If you want to know how worse it could have gone...the next show, tip a a truck driver on the show to climb up the stage and perform it again to Shilpa.

Jawahara,

Other than revealing your gender, I'm afraid you've offered nothing new here.

As I've noted twice before, it is quite irrelevant whether or not Shilpa is pressing charges since we know only too well that far too many women choose not to press charges for various reasons. Of itself, this means nothing except perhaps to examine in more detail why a woman refuses to press charges.

Similarly irrelevant is your point about Shilpa's dancing attracting wolf whistles for the simple reason that Shilpa voluntarily chooses to dance in a wet saree in front of a predominantly male audience. You would have to make a convincing case that Shilpa had voluntarily agreed to be mauled on stage by Gere.

Your comment about Shilpa being an "independent career woman" means little because this says nothing about her personal ambitions for even more wealth, publicity etc. We all know about people that have made a billion $ but that has only whetted their apetite for a second.

Wrt your disapproval of obscenity laws, India is a free country. If you don't approve of the obscenity laws, run for political office, garner enough support and make changes in the Lok Sabha. Until then, accept that people will continue to be charged and punished if and when they break existing laws.

It is trivial to say that AIDS is a serious problem - is it really?! However, it should be noted that HIV prevalence is 12.4 per 100 South Africans. In India, it is 25 times lower, at 0.52 and this is, in fact, much closer to places like the United States (0.4), or even Spain and Portugal (respectively, 0.3 and 0.35). Tourist hotspots like Dominican Republic and Thailand (0.72 and 0.90) are much higher, or for that matter Russia and Ukraine (0.66 and 0.88). And this was before the news release that the number of people with HIV in India has been grossly inflated.

Sanjay.[EDITED:PERSONAL ATTACK]

Kela CUT IT OUT!

umm..it wasn't a personal attack,but anyways..

Sanjay, really, I can't be bothered responding to this repititive and dare I say, rather reactive and inane response.
If you can't really get the point of what someone is saying then there is no point in discussing anything with you.
So, whatever. You are right about everything. i was totally wrong. Be happy.

Deepti,

I'm a bit mystified by your notion that one shouldn't defend Indian culture. If you somehow equate culture with rape, eve teasing, molestation etc, then I'm afraid your perception of culture is highly impoverished. Culture has to do with who we are, how we think and talk, communicate, discuss, what we eat, how we dress, how we relate with and towards others, it is about music, dance, philosophy etc. It is an entire ecosystem that we internalize.

The types of heinous impulses you are referring to have nothing to do with culture and they are, in reality, culture-independent, afflicting every society that has ever existed or will do so in the future.

Jawahara: It's fine with me if you wish to withdraw from this conversation but let's not take parting shots or label each other.

For the record, I do understand your position, just not accepting it as valid. The moment you are able to prove to me that what Gere did to Shilpa was by the latter's voluntary consent - while it was happening - I will accept your position. Why beat around the bush about Shilpa not pressing charges, about AIDS, wet sarees and bad truck drivers?

Sanjay, here is another definition of culture from dictionary.com

5. the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.

Which itself shows that India being a diverse country does not have one common culture or one set of belief system that applies to an entire nation.

What you call 'heinous impulses dependent on culture' (whatever that means) are actually natural acts that the state along with 'morality driven' individuals have deemed to be heinous.

If an adult sells his/her body thats the individual's prerogative. Whether its morally wrong or not is subjective thinking.

The best way of curbing AIDs and preventing child prostitution is by legalizing prostitution.

Deepti, here's another one, which closely mirrors your definition.

When I taught intercultural communcation a few years ago, after going through all the definitions of culture, I would bring up this explanation by M.R. Singer for my students(I don't the book with me so I am paraphrasing):

"Culture is the water within which a fish (a person) swims."

How do you decide what is and what is not culture? Everything in your environment is culture and it is never static. Culture is dynamic and ever-changing. So, within the same society there can be many different and divergent positions about the same issue.

I think many people confuse culture with societal rules and mores, which tend to be more rigid and strictly adhered to.

And Deepti, it's already been proven that AIDS is not a problem for India, and as for women's own bodies, please don't bother your pretty, feminine head....let those who really know decide such things...men, of course ;-).

And Deepti, it's already been proven that AIDS is not a problem for India, and as for women's own bodies, please don't bother your pretty, feminine head....let those who really know decide such things...men, of course ;-)

Oh, bugger!! Oops shouldn't have cursed; another cardinal sin committed.

Right as usual J, thanks for making it clear. Now I understand why I grew up hearing the words - sanskriti, sabhyata, maan maryada and izzat being uttered in the same breath;)

See that cuss word is a point against you in the Book of Woman as written by...err...Men. ;-)
All this shameless talk of legalizing prostitution. Chhee cheeee. Did you know prostitution is also not a problem in India? What....we have the largest number of prostitutes in Asia? All propoganda.
We all know Indians do not have sex...all one billion of us came about by immaculate conception. That's why our innocent eyes cannot take this shameless kissing-vissing. Understand?

#83 Largest in Asia...What is ratio per 1000 person and where does India stand as per ratio.

I googled and searched prostitution for some Asian countries.
India, China, Korea, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Pakistan, Philippines.

If I compare prostitutes per thousand, Only Indonesia came close to India.

And in India, prostition increased from 2 million to 3 million between 1997 and 2003.

No I am not doing any correlation analysis, but of the other things which seem to have changed in India in this period is

1. Increased is the influence of feminism

2. Degradation of value and culture system in India.

On another note, Dr KK Mukherjee who conducted a study says...most prostitutes do not want their profession to be legalised as they prefer to work in secrecy. Only those sex workers who operate in red-light areas are making such demands

He adds "Although poverty, illiteracy and ignorance remain the most common factors for women to enter the sex trade, other factors have also emerged, the study says.

"New stimulating factors are a change in attitudes towards sex, migration, globalisation, increase in hospitality industries and the desire for a physical relationship with multiple partners".

JW, I guess sweeping statements are a norm of the day.

In #85...the rest of the countries had much higher ratio.

Hardy, I don't see degradation of culture happening in India. Like I said before we don't have a homogeneous culture nor are our societies alike. India has never been insular - we have always imbibed and evolved which is why the country has survived for so long.

We survived foreign invasions incorporated their life styles, belief systems, survived imperialism, the post colonial socialist period and now globalization.

Our youth are supposed to be one of the happiest lot in the world. Sex is on the way up, economy is on the way up, population is on the way up and only a few are beating the old drum of moral bankruptcy driven by consumerism and your pet peeve - feminism;)

Hardy:
Is increase in prostitution tantamount to degradation of culture?

Hmm..

Some facts:

UNAIDS/WHO AIDS Epidemic update from December of 2006, estimates:

India has the largest number of people with HIV/AIDS in the world.
Of the 8.6 million in Asia who have HIV/AIDS, 5.7 million are in India.
While the highest *rates* in Asia are in Papua New Guinea, the fact remains that AIDS is a huge problem in India.


Coalition Against Trafficking in Women estimates:
The total number of prostitutes in India is 7,936,509.

This certainly seems to be one of the highest in Asia, if not the highest.

Deepti,

I suspect we're getting way off on a tangent from the main point but it appears to me that you're perhaps confusing sub-cultures with Culture. We're all aware that India is a collection of many, many sub-cultures and that some of the greatest thinkers in India, the world have not been able to define Indian culture. However, this does not mean that Indians do not share a common belief system, a common culture. It doesn't have to be fancy or a complex set of beliefs, could be something as simple as saying "our common belief system as Indians is that we allow multiple sub-cultures to co-exist peacefully."

btw, you've misread my comment on heinous impulses and I suggest you re-read that part. As far as your other observations, these are major topics in their own right and perhaps require their own separate discussion.

My oh my! So many of us, with so little to do!!

That was a bit of a boo-boo re small sq and Italy, wasn't it, mon ami? :)

Anyways, can I just put my oar in and say, good ole Shilpa Poppadom was on Channel 4 news last night (or the night be4 that - I forgot) and she made such brilliant sense. Here in UK, where folks are slowly getting convinced we are a bunch of prized nutters, she is coming across as a highly articulate, sensible Indian. Which is more than that can be said for some of us prattling about here!

Oh Dee - that Andhra hot babe dancing vid was mega funny. Gave me some ammo to rag S senseless!!! Thanks babe!!

#89.. the exactness of data makes me doubt the integrity and accuracy of data even when it is coming from UNICEF. If they can quote 7,936,509 they should quote time in MM:DD:YYY:HH:SS format when this data was factually valid.

However, the data I shared was supplied by government-commissioned study.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5140526.stm

DG, Funny? OMG and here I was basing my entire cultural thesis on their bellies. Our people are cool enough to put a tremble in that stiff Brit upper lip;)

Sanjay I'm not sure our diverse communities would like to be called 'sub-cultures' nor do I agree that there is one cultural umbrella that billions of us can fit into.

desigirl.. I am still laughing about that "boo-boo" (mumbles to self in italian)

deepti... I think what sanjay is trying to tell you is akin to not worrying your pretty little head with such big big things cause he's got it all figured out and you should just drink chamomile tea and relax. :P (giggling) As a rule, people who have distinct languages that do not come from the same root language (i.e. are not dialects or are not, say Dravidian languages) often do not fit under the umbrella "sub-culture".... so (language is generally one major factor in the definition of a separate culture.. but what do I know... just a girl yeah?

SS, Chamomile tea to soothe my shrewish liberal nerves and desi porn to numb my brain. Yeah, I know I sound like a loose tongued harlot and Jawahara will beat me up!;)

Deepti, I am a delicate, brainless flower (redundant being I have X chromosones and all)....besides beating up is soo unfeminine. I sweah you are givin me the vapors...ooh la la...*swoons*

Dee:
Well, stiff upper lips cannot hold out against those quivering bellies, I tell ya.

SmallSq.:
:D Let it not be said that we at DC don't keep our patrons amused! ;)

I think I just tinkled from laughing.

(Hey, now are the moral police going to come after me? I said tinkle.)

hey DG.. shall we have a variety show? :P

Jawahara, maybe I show my regret by presenting you with a Barbara Cartland? No? Then how about good old 'heading giving' Jackie Collins for some secret reading? I am a bad influence on tender flowering sensibilities;)

DG, care to share S's reaction? I'm dying to know;) Our patrons!! Oh boy! I gotta stop laughing!

who knows shilpa shetty probably had sex with richard gere in her private life ??

actually the stupid indian mens ego was hurt...a white man taking THEIR women away sort of a feeling.

heir egos can be saved only when some indian actor will kiss a hollwood actress like this...(unlikely to happen because water only drops from above)

[Blathering]