Neo Nazis in Bangalore?

One guy walks into Koshy's the other day and plonks himself down, wearing an actual Nazi-swastika emblazoned t-shirt. I yelled across at the bloke, "Were you born stupid, or did you become that way?"

Sigh.

Hi

The Mein Kampf still sells a large number of copies in India.

I think there are many who see Hitler as a powerful (as opposed to our timid leadership)as well as somebody who fought our occupiers, the British.

rgds

Chandra, evidently these are the same people who would overlook genocide as an instrument of state terror.

Incidentally, stay tuned in the next couple of days of my review of Max Domarus' The Essential Hitler - Speeches and Commentary - the first English edition and a contemporary guide to his policies and actions.

See, I do not have any issue with ppl reading Mein Kampf. I think people should be aware of what he stood for. And I do not believe in banning literature just because the material within is against what I think. Plus, the guy was an important figure in history. A maniacal one... but important.

I just cannot get past the whole support of neo-nazis as counter-culture. genocide is not cool, no matter how you look at it.

SS

I think you will have to look at this a little differently. While people in Europe were getting rid of Hitler, we are trying to get rid of Europeans.

By any standards, Hitler hardly had any impact on us as opposed to the British rape of 190 years.

rgds

The native Dalits want the Hindu Aryans to leave India.Visit dalitvoice for details

Chandra there is a vital difference - while the whites did consider the non whites to be inferior but unlike the Germans the rest of the imperialists did not make it their state policy to systematically alienate a race.

Its one thing to try and appear cool by plastering the Nazi sign, people might still forgive that person for being a dimwit but to adhere to a policy of mass genocide reflects inherent psychological problems.

The Invader Hindu Aryans have been raping the indigenous dalits of India for centuries.

Foreign origin of Brahmin: German scientists research


Who are the indigenous people of India, the autochthons? Best reliable means to determine this is the study of blood relations, i.e. the study of genetics. Such a study has once again been done by none other than the reputed Max Plank Institute of Germany, and the study confirms the foreign origin of Brahmins and other upper castes. But the Adivasis and the shudra casts are natives.
MEDIA BLACKOUT

There were several such studies before as well, but the Indian media has blacked out these studies by an international team of scientists including those from the Madurai School of Molecular Biology and one more international study and very recently another study by the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology, Hyderabad, the first two studies were posted on the website of dalitstan.org. The Max Plank study can be accessed at:

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics /pdf/cordauxcurbiol2004.pdf.

However, the most compelling evidence of Aryan invasion is in the Rig Veda itself which gives a graphic details of the invasion and destruction that took place under the leadership of Purandhaka (destroyer of the Indus Valley cities, Indra).

The study confirms the Central Asian origin of the Aryans with finality.

Mark Stoneking of the Max Plank Institute of Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany has proved the Aryan invasion theory. According to his paper, "Independent origins of Indian caste and tribal paternal lineages", the caste system in India is no more than 3,500 years as per Romila Thapar.

Moreover, the caste system was elaborated only within the last 3,500 years, which constitutes a rather short period of time for observing such dramatic differences in Y chromosome variation between caste and tribal people at a pooled-data level.

It therefore appears that the Indian caste and tribal paternal lineages derive from independent sources. Reference number 17 -- on which the Professor bases his claim -- is a paper written by people who base their ideas on the assumption that the Aryan invasion theory is true.

(Gadgil. M., and Thapar R -1990. Human ecology in India: Some historical perspectives. Inter- discipl. Sci., Rev.15, 209-223).

Thus in a display of academic brilliance, Stoneking uses Romila Thapar's claim that Aryans invaded India and introduced the caste system and goes on to prove that Aryans invaded India and introduced the caste system.

You can contact Mark Stoneking at stoneking ATeva.mgp.

Max Planck Institute email ids can be found here: http://www. eva.mpg.de/english/profil.htm,

Chandra... well, I suppose I see what you're saying in theory... but it's a very narrow and shortsighted view. I agree that India might have been tied up with its own significant issues at the time, but that doesn't prohibit people NOW from understanding the issues. Saying, "well the British screwed us over so we don't care about the Holocaust" doesn't make sense. And I bet you care about what's happening in Iraq and Darfur, right?

Kela... I know very little about this issue, so I will have to read up. But is there any reason why this issue might influence kids to think neo nazism is cool?

The hindu upper castes consider themselves as the superior ARYAN race just like Hitler did

Smallsquirrel- those boys were probably upper castes and they think they're the superior Aryan race,thats why the swastika

Kela, forgive my ignorance on the topic... but here is my confusion... I suppose that some people who are Brahmin might be anti-dalit. But not all are. *All* neo-nazis by definition are for the decimation of non-whites.

But anyway, are you saying that you believe that brahmins relate to neo-nazis?

SS apparently they're still a lot of racist bigots in our country.Funny thing is the most vociferous among them are those that are living abroad as immigrants.We also have a fair share of cyber terrorists in India and some post on this blog, DC, too

kela is extrapolating a little too far - that was a buffoon brandishing the swastika because of innate stupidity, and not any sort of class affinity.

Kela... OK I get it, but not really. don't these people understand that neo-nazis would look at any indian with utter disdain... regardless of caste?

And I cannot believe that all of this comes from caste issues in india. I think it may be driven much more from utter stupidity than anything.

SS : The Brahmins and upper castes claim that they are of the Aryan race,brown-skinned caucasians,its another thing the white world don't accept them as their own.

there was this interesting case heard by the US supreme court on a plea by an indian upper caste to be recognised as a caucasian(apparently caucasians were being given citizenship and other rights liek that).The court while recognsing the fact that he was a brown caucasian refused to grant him citizenship on the ground that the common perception of caucasians were that of a white skinned race

SS - its more of a race thing,caste is divided on racial lines.Racism exists all over the world including India

SS

Please donot count me as being a defender of somebody wearing a swastika cross, was just offering a posisble explanation of why peoplemay be doing it. I agree with both you and Aaman that it is a pretty dumb thing to do.

Having said that, I wonder how western text books cover colonalism? Are they as ruthless about it as they are about the holocaust?

rgds

chandra... it's hard to say. not all school systems in the US use the same textbooks, and textbooks are approved by local school authorities.

I can say that in my school we did learn about colonialism from an early age. They would split the class up into 1/3rds and some would be the oppressors and some were the oppressed and the other 1/3 were the minorities who got caught up in working for the oppressors. Then we had to switch. As we got older we learned about the specifics... the british in india, the italians in ethopia... you name it.

kela... I will have to read more. The only thing I know right now is that not all brahmins think that way. as I am fond of saying, you have @$$holes in every culture and creed, so I am sure they are out there. but I am not sure that generalization gets us much of anywhere in this discussion.

To this day I see Indians riding around with union jack handkerchiefs on their heads. it makes me just as angry as seeing the "bad" swastika. I mean, again, how damned stupid can you be?

The best explanation is probably ignorance mixed in a bit with arrogance. You'd find such behavior in almost all cultures. If not for such ample ignorance, India wouldn't have been conqured so many times by alien cultures. Even now I cringe when I hear hindi songs in rap style though I like rap myself. Ignore the fools, enjoy the rava dosa. I myself prefer panchetta though.

You are correct to point out the difference between the ancient Indian symbol and the modern German symbol of the National Socialist German Workers' Party. In fact, the National Socialist German Workers' Party did not even call their symbol a "swastika." It was called a Hakenkreuz, because that means "hooked cross" because it was percieved as a type of cross (related to their religion) and also because it was percieved as two separate crossed parts (S-shaped parts). That also explains why they turned it 45 degrees counter-clockwise to highlight the S letters.

Swastika pictures http://rexcurry.net/swastika3clear.jpg and Pledge of Allegiance pictures http://rexcurry.net/pledge-allegiance-pledge-allegiance.jpg expose shocking secrets about German history and ties to American history.

Swastika symbols as alphabetic symbolism originated in the USA where it was adopted later as Nazism's swastika. Swastikas became overlapping S-letters for "socialism" under the National Socialist German Workers' Party, as shown in the research of the noted historian Dr. Rex Curry (author of Swastika Secrets).
http://rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-swastika.html

Socialists in the USA originated the Nazi salute, robotic group-chanting to flags, Nazism, flag fetishism, and the modern swastika as "S" symbolism for "Socialism."

Although the swastika was an ancient symbol, its use was altered to alphabetic symbolism in modern times.

The symbol had also been used as S symbolism for socialism by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Many people do not know that the term "Nazi" means "National Socialist German Workers' Party" and that members of the horrid group did not call themselves Nazis, but called themselves socialists.

Swastikas as alphabetic symbolism began in the USA as early as 1875 and continued through the creation of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (German Nazis or NSGWP or Nazis).

The NSGWP had clear roots in National Socialism promoted by socialists in the USA.

Much of that history includes the history of the Pledge Of Allegiance. The "Nazi salute" is more accurately called the "American salute" as it was created and popularized by national socialists in the USA as the early salute of the Pledge of Allegiance.

The Pledge was written by Francis Bellamy. Francis Bellamy was cousin and cohort of Edward Bellamy. Edward Bellamy and Francis Bellamy were self-proclaimed Christian Socialists in the Nationalism movement and they promoted military socialism.

Their socialist pledge was mandated by law in government schools for three decades before, and through, the creation of the National Socialist German Workers' Party. It was the worship of government.

The original pledge was anti libertarian and began with a military salute that then stretched out toward the flag. In actual use, the second part of the gesture was performed with a straight arm and palm down by children casually performing the forced ritual chanting. Due to the way that both gestures were used sequentially in the pledge, the military salute led to the Nazi salute. The Nazi salute is an extended military salute via the USA's pledge.

The Pledge's early salute caused quite a Fuhrer/furor. The dogma behind the Pledge was the same dogma that led to the socialist Wholecost (of which the Holocaust was a part): 62 million slaughtered under the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; 49 million under the Peoples' Republic of China; 21 million under the National Socialist German Workers' Party. It was the worst slaughter of humanity ever.

The USA is still the worst example in the world of bizarre laws that require robotic chanting to a national flag in government schools (socialist schools) every day for 12 years. It has changed generations of Americans from libertarians to authoritarians. The government bamboozled individuals into believing that collective robotic chanting in government schools daily is a beautiful expression of freedom.

SS, for most progressive Indians the caste system is archaic redundant system. I am a brahman by birth and one of my favorite joints is Fanoos at the corner of Johnson Market.

The hard core conservatives would probably role in their graves on hearing about such blasphemous but deeds but then there are many Indians who have discarded the caste system in its totality.

Intercaste, inter-religious marriages are on the rise in India and though we cannot whitewash the atrocities committed against the 'poor' in the name of castism yet at the same time we cannot say that all upper caste people are Nazi sympathizers.

Blanket statements such as these are made to to forward certain agendas.

I suppose this is the Indian version of surrendering to the Nazis, unlike the Italian version that was more dignified? No wait....

Dev... I'll buy that. And mmmmm.. pancetta. why'd ya have to go and say that? :P

Tinny... hmm, well I was with ya for a while. Then you lost me. The US is not the only country that does crap like that. I mean come on, we can at least criticise our f**kwit of a president, while in Thailand any speech against the King is treason. Also, in the US, you can opt to NOT say the allegence. You can sit quietly. You can even leave the classroom.

Deepti... I, too, love Fanoos. Hard not to, hunh? My husband is brahmin by birth and shocker.. he married a firang meat-eater. And his parents attended our wedding and have accepted me (although somewhat slowly) as a full member of the family. so I agree with what you say.

puri... is that meant to be a dig against my heritage? Just so you know, during WWII my family was screwed on both sides. some burned in the gas chambers in poland while others in Anzio, Italy had their homes destroyed by fighting and had to survive by living in caves. NOTHING about war is dignified.

SS, the food at Fanoos is damn spicy and for a beef lover like me apart from Koshy's thats the place to go and of course the good old Casa Picola. While in the US I used to love the famous Milwaukee Butter Burgers.
Meat-eater not man eater? Don't beat me up!;)

deepti... you should also try the steaks at Herbs and Spice in Indiranagar (also damned good italian food, too). Also, the burgers at Only Place on Museum Road aren't too bad! :)

smallsquirrel: "is that meant to be a dig against my heritage?"

No, but a bad joke. Both my grandfathers served in the British army, which in turn served under Eisenhower and they went through North Africa and Italy during the liberation. They perhaps saw the atrocities you mention because as kids we heard lots of stories like that being discussed in the family about that war.

The best Italian restaurant in Bangalore, IMHO, is Fiorano's in Koramangala.

Let's not overlook Indian contribution to the war effort (WWII) - everything from aluminium to torpedos to soldiers plenty. And the war was condemned, even in Congress circles.

puri... ah, ok .. that way... gotcha.

aaman... yeah, some things at fiorano are good. great even. but some dishes end up a bit too bland and others are slightly indianized. they do use real mascarpone cheese in the tiramisu, tho (thank god). but do try the potato and rosemary pizza at herbs and spice... that's authentic italian!

Wood-oven fired, et al?

We once drove over from Lausanne to Turin to have pizza:)

hmmm, I don't think so. But it does have fresh arugula on top!

and hey, that's behavior I can truly admire. When I am at home with the relatives in Rome, we often drive for great distances for a certain dish. And I have gotten so desperate in the US that I flew to Italy for the weekend cause I found out someone was making my favorite foods! my current obsession is finding passable mexican food in bangalore. any ideas?

The closest to getting a good Enchilada is at Ruby Tuesday but we generally go there when we are really craving Mexican food for nothing in Bangalore compares to good old Cantina food;)

An important thing to remember about Hitler, was that he was a socialist. "Nazi" is an abbreviation for the German title "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" or NSDAP (National Socialist Workers Party)

Hitler was a socialist. As he himself said:

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." (Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

Mussolini was a socialist journalist, a socialist editor, the leader of the Italian Socialist Party, and he was once commended by Lenin himself for his efforts on behalf of Socialism. The two men were lifelong friends and corresponded with each other by mail.

Both National Socialism and Italian Fascism were Socialist, Left-wing, movements. That's the historical reality.

More quotes by Adolf Hitler:

"I have learned a great deal from Marxism, as I do not hesitate to admit. The difference between them and myself is that I have really put into practice what these peddlers and pen-pushers have timidly begun.... I had only to develop logically what Social Democracy repeatedly failed in because of its attempt to realize its evolution within the framework of democracy. National Socialism is what Marxism might have been if it could have broken its absurd and artificial ties with a democratic order." (4. Quoted in Leonard Peikoff, The Ominous Parallels (New York, Stein and Day, 1982), p. 236.)

"There is more that binds us to Bolshevism than separates us from it. There is, above all, genuine revolutionary feeling, which is alive everywhere in Russia.... I have always made allowance for this circumstance, and given orders that former Communists are to be admitted to the party at once. The petit bourgeois Social-Democrat and the trade-union boss will never make a National Socialist, but the Communist always will." (4. Quoted in Leonard Peikoff, The Ominous Parallels (New York, Stein and Day, 1982), p. 236.)

Back to the topic at hand-SS- you're right not everyone is a racist,but of late there has been a rise in this Aryan supremacy feeling among certain urban upper caste indians,even the founder of the Shiv Sena -a major political party of Mumbai-has openly spoken of his admiration of Hitler

Kela, one [EDITED] does not represent all of us Hindus. Most of us ie liberal hindus consider him to be no more than a political goon and give some quotes to validate your above statements about Thackeray.

And wasn't Benedictus part of the Hitler Youth or something like that?

Actually, I'd point out the rise in the "Dravida Uber Alles" supremacism amongst Dravidian chauvinists. Look at the Sinhala-style govt ruling Chennai -- they are blatantly discriminating against the minority, branding them as "pampered elites".

The Dravidianist movement has reached such extremes of chauvinism that they totally scorn meritocracy and demand discriminatory quotas for themselves as some sort of birthright. They are openly contemptuous of the Supreme Court, and demand the right to discriminate in favour of their own bloodline.

The "Dravida Uber Alles" mentality in Tamil Nadu will only boomerang as othe communities will demand reciprocal protection from Dravidian discrimination.

Bihari- ur right and i'm actually feeling proud about that now looking at all this hate campaign against christians going on these forums
as regards thackeray's comments google it if u want,its no secret ,it has been highlighted a number of times by the media.Also the fact that his party was founded on the cause of chasing away all south-indians living in Bombay at that time.

And how about Benedictus?

Reminds me something about stones and glass houses.

thats what i was saying,you guys make feel proud about him :)
its not about stones and glass houses.How does the Pope figure in this conversation anyway?This is about youth sporting the swastika,c'mon don't give me crap about this being some foolish kids who think its cool.I bet these guys are fully aware of what they're doing.

kela, when Thakre campaigned to rename Bombay to Mumbai, then Dravidianists complained about the "chauvinist" and "fascist" trend. Then immediately after, the Dravidianists campaigned to have Madras renamed to Chennai. Ohhh, but that's not chauvinist in your opinion, is it?

Double standards from you. No credibility.

I don't really see that the Dravidianists hold much sway outside Tamil Nadu, since they're highly scornful and contemptuous of Malayalees, Kannadigas and even Telugu-speakers.

A few weeks ago, I saw Karunanidhi on the news, stating how he didn't feel that puny Kerala had the right to be affecting water supplies to the mighty masters of Tamil Nadu. What an arrogant, racist jerk that guy is.

It's one thing for Dravidianists to be complaining about the behaviour of Marathis, but when you view it alongside the constant Dravidianist complaints against Keralites, Kannadigas, Telugu-speakers, etc, then it shows who's really being abrasive.

Kela, here is the unvarnished truth and I'm replying to the other thread on religion as well.

All religions have skeletons in their closets. Airing out one is bound to lead to airing out of another.

Wasn't Christ the one who talked about pointing fingers?

Jokes aside, India is a capitalist country and gone are the days when playing the minority card secured people some headway in the socialist ration card driven line.

Now, its a doggie dog world each to their own - empowerment comes by taking ownership of one's life and making it despite all odd.

Its capitalism at its best or worst. Move forward man.

Remember - God helps those who help themselves and he wasn't talking about reservation or minority status;)

Kela, you were the one who was protesting about upper class hindus being Neo Nazi and when your own Pope turns out to be a Nazi party member you cry fowl?

Its that friggin TROLL Chandra that baited me into all this crap,i was only defending myself LOL i seriously couldnt care less about religion or caste and you're absolutely right what you typed above *yawn* time to sleep

Bihari- are we talking about the Pope here ?grow up man.Write your own article on the Pope i couldnt care less but that doesnt mean you'll deny the truth.Comeon give me an explanation for that swastika ?Don't most urban upper caste youth consider themselves part of the Aryan race,the same race Hitler was proud about ?
For your info as regards the Pope,during those days it was compulsory for everyone to join

Sanjay - who's talking about name changing here ?i referred to thackeray because he's has openly said he has admired Hitler and I mentioned about the cause of the founding of his party the Shiv Sena to shed light on his fascist agenda.Karunanidhi hasn't spoken about chasing away mallus from TN.has he? just recently Raj Thackeray had warned the Biharis living in Mumbai.Besides I'm no fan of Karunanidhi the barber.I'm mallu BTW LOL LOL you guys are tripping over your hate.You all hate too much go get laid even if you have to make do with your left hand

Kela, I have lot of respect for Christianity. The fearlessness that the early Christians showed in front of the Roman lions should be an inspiration to all those who want to be true to their faith.

Should not have the pope aspired to the same act? Didn't Christ himself die for his beliefs?

Just as I don't consider all Christians to be pagan haters shouldn't you be on the same page vice versa as per Hindus?

kela, and how many Marathas are living in Chennai? Not a whole lot -- not a whole lot of reciprocity.

Nobody in India really knows a whole lot about Hitler, and that's why so many make casual remarks about him. Don't forget that even Modi got falsely blamed by the Red-Green(socialist+islamic) combine for some fake trumped up controversy about not alleged Nazism in textbooks.


It just goes to show you that politically correct lefists/congress-wallahs will quickly resort to Godwin's Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

The Law of Opportunistic Nazi Analogies.

But as I previously said, Hitler was a socialist, and his hate was driven by his socialist ideology. He felt that so-called "pampered elites" were exploiting society, and that they should rounded up and exterminated. He didn't like meritocracy at all, and rushed to have the German state swallow up independent companies. He felt that the state was the best safeguard for the rights of the oppressed majority against the exploitive elite pampered minority.

This Shylock-baiting is a common feature of socialist movements, whereby those who perform better are vilified for it, instead of being praised. Anybody rich is automatically accused of being an exploiter.

You can't beat meritocracy. Those who try to deflectively argue against it, are simply trying to hide their own corruption.

Ohh, look:

-------

14 killed as car blows up in Tamil Nadu

PTI | Villupuram (TN)

Fourteen people were killed and 25 injured, when a car carrying gelatine sticks and detonators blew up in Senthur village near here today.

The injured were rushed to a Government hospital in Tindivanam.

According to the police, the car, carrying explosives from the godown of a licensed dealer in Tirukoilur, developed an engine problem on National Highway 47 in Senthur.

When one of its three occupants saw smoke and sparks emanating from the rear of the vehicle, he stopped the car. As they were trying to douse the sparks with sand, the car exploded, killing 10 people including the three occupants on the spot. Four others succumbed to their injuries on the way to hospital.

Some of the victims were picking tamarind from a nearby tree when the blast occurred. People in the area pick ripe tamarind from trees along the National Highways during summer to eke out a living, police said.

The impact of the explosion was so severe that nearby huts were gutted and even pucca buildings like a school were damaged.

The police, however, denied that the car was carrying RDX explosives.

Police is conducting inquiries to ascertain whether the explosives were being transported illegally.

-------

Gee, I wonder who in Tamil Nadu likes to carry explosives? I'm pretty sure I know who that would be. It sure ain't Thakre, that's for sure. It's our "peaceful" Dravidianists.

Sanjay

Marathas donot form a significant migrant population in any of the big cities unlike Tams/Malls/Punjabis/Biharis/Bongs/odiyas......

rgds

As to the original article, I bet none of those morons sporting the swastika would know more than a passing mention of Hitler. Maybe what they would have retained from history books is the concept of a man trying to make his country great again.
However, for all those people, I recommend 2 things. A movie called Schindler's list, and book called 'Rise and Fall of the Third Reich'. Then let me see somebody admiring that mass murderer.
Of course, he was beaten in mass murdering in the modern age only by Mao and Stalin, but they killed only their own countrymen, and history does not emphasize that particular aspect.

Ashish, neither did the Allies much care during WW2 that the Reich was rounding up and killing Jews. It's only later on, after the military defeat of Germany, and once the Allies had to develop more effective political methods of repressing German nationalism, that they began suddenly voicing their disgust for the Holocaust. But during the war, their attitudes were much more indifferent.

Socialists in the USA originated the Nazi salute, robotic group-chanting to flags, Nazism, flag fetishism, and the modern swastika as "S" symbolism for "Socialism."

'Fraid not...

The Nazi salute was taken from the Middle Ages salute given to the Emperors of the Holy Roman Empire. The squires would stand around the new emperor, extending their arms and shouting "Sieg und Heil!" (vitory and salvation!).

Hello the great Europeans, we may sport horribly swastikas but we dont have a history of
intolerance and murder like Europe based on that. It drove me nuts when some Germans would draw pathetic conclusions from display of swastika or sale of mein kampf books. In this way they can nourish their internal prejudice of Indians being 'racists as well' to exonerate the disgraceful record of integration of minorities and immigrants in their own country. Sporting swastika is distasteful and stupid but lets face one fcat; the guy wearing a swastika t-shirt is NOT POISED to attack someone of a different skin colour!!! As Amman rightly pointed out he's just stupid but there is no violent militant ideology backing it.

ron... "Hello the great Europeans, we may sport horribly swastikas but we dont have a history of
intolerance and murder like Europe based on that. " um... riiiiiiiight, so the Mughals or King Ashoka never killed anyone to maintain rule? ahem. No history of intolerance? Oh dear... go research the riots in Gujarat. What I am saying is that any civilization is like anyone else. India is no better or worse on that account. OK so maybe the kid in the neo nazi shirt is NOT poised to attack someone. That was not my point.

Ruvi... Sieg Heil means "hail victory".. and um, the Romans would have been speaking in latin, not german...

Bihari, Kela and the rest... I have lost respect for most organized religion. But who among you can honestly say, using a cogent argument, that one of them behaves any better or worse than the other. Too many generalizations get you nowhere.

The human race is not very nice. Genocide data in descending order of number of deaths:

1. Stalin's Forced Famine: 7 million Ukranians died in Stalin's attempt to collectivize farming
2. Nazi Holocaust: 6 million Jews killed by 'Aryans'
3. Pol Pot in Cambodia: 2 million people killed in Pol Pot's grand experiment with Communism
4. Armenians in Turkey: 1.5 million Christians killed by Turks
5. Rwanda: 800,000 Tutsis killed by Hutus
6. Rape of Nanking: 300,000 Chinese killed by invading Japanese
7. Bosnia Herzegovina: 200,000 Muslims killed by Serb Christians
8. Ashoka's conquest of Kalinga: 100,000

And I'm not even going to start quoting statistics on Iraq and Afghanistan.

Smallquirrel, you surprise me. As a Italian, you should know that the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, Roman, nor an empire. This is a famous quote. The Holy Roman Empire was the "first reich," a German entity that sprawled over central Europe until it was abolished by Napoleon in the early 1800's. Latin was never spoken in that empire.

My German dictionary backs up my translation of "sieg und heil," not yours, and my own knowledge of history is backed up by my sources, among whom are a German covert to Judaism who spent a number of years in India trying to find truth before turning to us.

SS

Mughals were not Indians, foreign occupiers just like the Europeans.


rgds

@ Chandra:
Then wat shd i call changra gupta maurya. Come one man everyone invaded India (including so called aryans). If u do ur big time analysis u will find lots of simlarity with present time Iran and India. Most of things are same. Does tht give u some hint. In simple words dravidians were here first then aryans came then mughals came then britishers came. The thing is aryans and mughals ruled india. Britishers looted india. They gave 2 cents but took 100. Tat is why indians revolted against them and not against mughals. Mughals were in comparison the best thing ever to happen fr a country like india. They came to live in India and not to loot and give it to their queen. So guys have some respect fr mughals whther u are hindu or muslim and also good repect fr aryans. But Aryans created divide(caste system) whereas mughals did not. Another bit of info, hindu was not a religion under aryans. Hindu was the name of region. Hindustan was teh name of country where blah blah occupied top slot, sc/sts occupied bottom slot. Racism at its worst. When mughals came they didnt change it because they were told tats their religion so dont mess with it. Thus hindu became religion under mughals and not under aryans. Muslims are harassed in India except Tamilnadu and told u dont belong here, goto pakistan goto turkey. Mr Aryans where do u belong (Iran)????

SS- please ignore Chandra's comments.he's a [edited]

Its silly to think Hitler is the worst. Colonialism has done far worse and in a more systemic way and a larger scale. So I find this reaction a bit exaggerated. Hitler and his group were a Klu Klux Klan of the world. It depends on the scale of the picture.

Kela, if you think "Mughals were in comparison the best thing ever to happen fr a country like india", you [EDITED]

Previous post directed to Lomi, not Kela. My typo.

the british were good people.They didn't engage in ethnic killings,they built roads and bridges,they educated us enough to enable us to demand our rights and finally freedom.Our entire system is thanks to them otherwise our country would have ended up as some banana republic

SS- i agree with you,almost all forms of organized religion are corrupted.But in this dog eat dog world you have to belong to some group or else perish.

Lomi

Lot of claims and no evidence. ........


Lomi: Then wat shd i call changra gupta maurya.

Chandra: What?

Lomi:If u do ur big time analysis u will find lots of simlarity with present time Iran and India

Chandra: What similarity?

Lomi: In simple words dravidians were here first then aryans came then mughals came then britishers came

Chandra: No evidence to back your claim that dravidans came to India before Aryans.


Lomi:hindu became religion under mughals and not under aryans

Chandra: Any evidence to back this statement?

Lomi: Mughals were in comparison the best thing ever to happen fr a country like india.

Chandra: Why do you say so?

Lomi:Muslims are harassed in India except Tamilnadu

Chandra: Any data/evidence to confirm this?

The Aryan invasion theory has not been proved wrong yet and I still stand by it.It's amusing the 'hindu-aryans" who are essentially pagans base their argument on story books like Mahabharata and Ramayana written by pot smoking sadhus probably on a high when they wrote it.

SS- i found this on wikipedia when i searched for Aryan Invasion theory .It goes to prove my earlier point about the thinking of upper caste indians.-
The Aryan Invasion Theory was also accepted by the Hitler sympathizers Savitri Devi and her husband Asit Krishna Mukherji. Elst (1999) asserted that "after reading her autobiography, Memories and Reflexions of an Aryan Lady, there is not the slightest doubt left that for her and her husband, their belief in the AIT, along with their distortive reinterpretation of Hindu tradition in terms of the AIT, was the direct cause of their enthusiasm for Hitler."

Ruvy.. .yeah, OK so I was thinking of the western roman empire and not the later one... I guess when I think "roman empire" I just think of, well, you know... look, I am not a historian, obviously :P

Chandra, etc.... um, OK, invaders or not, it was a part of Indian history. Anyway, fine, use King Ashoka to prove my point...

bharath... I think you think it's worse cause it did not happen to you. it's not your history. I think human suffering and genocide is NOT A RELATIVE THING. you just cannot say "well 6 million dead is nothing compared to..." ugh. makes no sense. Hitler, Stalin, Milosevic, and the deeds of other horrible rulers are all equal in my eyes. Did I ever say Hitler was the worst? no.

SS

Not me, your point was directed at Ron.......I only noted a factual error (Mughals) and pointed it out......Living in India,I felt it was a very basic piece of infomation you should know....

rgds

back during my college days in kerala there were a couple of upper caste brahmins in my class,they had fair skin and blue eyes and their facial structure was so different from the majority locals.But all brahmins are not like this in India and this has happened due to intermixing of the races.Hitler wanted a pure Aryan race and pointed out this fact of intermixing as reason for the decline of Indian civilisation .

kela, you're dreaming in technicolour. Indians with blue eyes? There's not even one. Blue eyes are from recessive genes anyway, so they're not going to survive down the line.

wateva, please the last thing i want to hear from u guys is:

the fair skinned northies and dark skinned southies are from same race and lived happily before, are living happily now and will live happily ever after. Who supports this is the most intelligent guy in this world (sarcasm).

Lomi, anyone who supports the Aryan Invasion theory is also automatically supporting its corollary -- the Afro-Dravidian Theory. Because basically what these theories propagate is that Northern Indians are originally from Europe, while Southern Indians are originally from Africa.

So even though Afro-Dravidian nationalists like kela may zealously support these ideas, the reality is that Indians have a very mixed heritage which also includes Mongoloid.

Kela can go join his Somali cousins to create Dravidian Eelam if he likes, but meanwhile Indians will go on living their lives.

Sanjaya- there is no pure race in India,Aryan or Dravidian,except maybe for the tribals.I am a Brown Brahmin just like Brown Jesus.Jesus was a brahmin himself.
Why do you automatically come to the conclusion that dravidians have to leave for africa?dravidians are natives of this land.Hello ? havent you read geography in school,about how the continents drifted.India and Africa were once the same land mass.
I'm not asking Aryans to leave India ,only Chandra has such ideas asking christians and muslims to leave India.
About the blue eyes,its absoloutely true.Actually the brahmin girl had blue eyes and the brahmin boy green .

Lomi this trend among Aryans to claim nativeness with the land can be seen among the Americans too.Now almost every white american claims to have indian blood in them LOL.I guess they're embarrassed and ashamed about their barbaric history

All i would say is please forget past and live in present and help dravidians who are so low in society to come up as true indians. Help the sc/st ppl to develop in actual terms instead of just in paper. Giving them 22.5% reservations doesnt solve the issue. First help them goto school and most importantly respect them as humans first. All men are born equal, please practice it. Acc to me neither anyone is above me nor anyone is below me. I respect every race whether it be aryan, dravidian, american i dont differentiate them. I also respect India as a great country and see them becoming a superpower by 2020. I stand by my college senior Abdul Kalam who has such a great vision. I would like to work for it and hope everyone does the same.

kela, where do you get your false belief that North Indians are not native to India?

I'm not the one claiming that South Indians are African -- you are. Because you claim a belief in the Aryan Invasion Theory, which also simultaneously postulates the Afro-Dravidian Theory of Dravidians having come from the Horn of Africa.

Your misguided belief of irreducable opposites is what creates these conclusions.

Let's all note that it's kela who is calling others Aryan. I don't see anybody else here claiming it of themselves.

Lomi, coming up in society has to do with hard work. Please support the concept of free market competition and meritocracy, so that conspiracy theories of Upper-caste oppression are removed.
Such myth-making does nobody any good. It hasn't even helped kela's family in Somalia.

As India increasingly becomes a free market economy, then opportunity will flow to everyone, and it will be upto every individual to make use of it. Those who don't make use of oppportunity can't curse others for it. It's the responsibility of the individual to pull themselves up in life, and not whine for everyone around them to do it.

kela... have you been to the US or you just believe everything you read/hear? First of all, only a handful of americans are descendants of the people who went and stole the land away from the native americans. The rest of us showed up on the scene waaaaay later, so it makes no sense to say that most americans claim to be natives. come on, your hyperbole is getting out of hand.

sanjay... I have seen plenty of Indians with green or blue eyes. And um, not all of them were Brahmin.

kela is literally making up anything off the top of his head, in order to fuel his hate. He's trying to claim that evil non-Tamils (ie. North Indians, North Americans) are busily plotting to overthrow the "righteous natives" like himself. More of the same "Dravida Uber Alles" from kela.

Instead of comparing himself with North American natives, kela should instead see the similarities between his own thoughts and those of Germany's National Socialists who sought to expel the "non-natives" from their midst.

kela is clearly fuelled by hate ideology.

story books like Mahabharata and Ramayana written by pot smoking sadhus probably on a high when they wrote it.

And what if we said the same thing about Jesus? Oh wait a minute why am I trying to reason with an individual who thinks Jesus was a brahman!

"written by pot smoking sadhus probably on a high when they wrote it...."

I'd buy that! Heck! I'd smoke it!

aaman... HAHHAHAHHAH! And hey, the bible talks a lot about wine! WOO HOO!

And what if we said the same thing about Jesus?

We'd be communal :)

This is Kaliyugam. Remember? Opposites work. Falsity will become truth and truth will become falsity.

Kela,

You say:

Why do you automatically come to the conclusion that dravidians have to leave for africa?dravidians are natives of this land.Hello ? havent you read geography in school,about how the continents drifted.India and Africa were once the same land mass.

Factually incorrect. Dravidian nationalist/chauvinist fuelled pseudoscience.

You ask us if we read Geography at school but hey, it is YOU who needs to do a BASIC reading of Class XI Textbook for Geography (NCERT). WTF!

Now listen: India and Africa did belong to the same land mass once. It was called Gondwanaland. However, Gondwanaland broke up into several landmasses (Australia, Madagascar, Africa, South America, Arabia, India, Antarctica) during the Jurassic (Mesozoic Epoch, 225 - 60 million years ago.)

Kela, note: BUT anatomically modern humans did not appear until just 130,000 years ago in Africa. Bipedal hominids did not develop until 4 million years before present.

Africa was the first continent to be colonised by hominids. India was colonised much later. The academically accepted time of human migration into India is 250,000 years ago.

Scientific evidence completely nullifies the Dravidian nationalist/chauvinist claim that a monolithic (socalled) Dravidian race is native to India and all subsequent races who have migrated and settled in India are foreigners, who have brought their "uncivlised" habbits with them and subjugated the oh-so-civilized-and-righteous Dravidian natives. In reality, there is nothing called a Dravidian race. The five most important races in India are:

1. Negrito.
2. Proto-Australoid.
3. Bracycephalic.
4. Caucasoid.
5. Mongoloid.

Anyway, over time there has been a massive intermixture of all these races. It is now extremely hard to identify clearcut racial qualities in most Indians (with exceptions.)

All these races are foreign to the Indian subcontient because the sources of all these races exist outside India. No one individual of India can claim that s/he was the "original inhabitant" of India.

The Dravidian nationalist/chauvinist groups have many similarities to the Nazis as Sanjay pointed out. Besides seeking to chase out the "non-native" non-Tamils from Tamilakam, they also thrive on pseudoscience. The Nazis believed in all kinds of pseudoscientific and occult nonsense. Similarly, the Dravidian nationalists believe - that there was a "lost continent" called Kumari Kandam (the non-existence, both historic and modern, of which is now completely settled after advances in plate tectonics), that there was a race called Homo Dravida, that Kumari Kandam was the source of all human languages and Tamil in particular etc. etc. Compare this with the Nazi ideology that there was a Master race called Aryans who brought civlization to the world. Sounds familiar?

Sanjay is right in saying that Kela is fuelled by pure hate ideology. A cursory glance at Kela's comments at this site shows that this individual is really paranoid about the Aryan/Dravidian myth. Looks like he really wants to divide everybody based on race, religion and language. So much secularism and tolerance. Most of his comments are filled with insults, ad hominem attacks, poor reasoning, loads of prejudice and bias.

i don't really give a shit about the bible,its maybe relevant for foolish villagers who need fairy tales and magic to encourage them to lead fulfilled lifes,I personally am beyond all that :)

read this article about brahman jesus http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1122
I wish i had more time to research this subject

SS as regards americans,i typed what i typed based on my conversations with hundreds of americans online.90% of those i spoke too said they had some native american link .Are you saying "your types" make up the majority of the population and "your types" have particularly avoided racial mixing ?

I am not hating on anyone.This was started by Mr Chandra who said christians and muslims are foreigners and don't deserve to live in India.That was ironical coming from a hindu-aryan since history is proof that Aryan-hindus were invaders themselves

Kela

I said

'Those christians and muslims who seek reservations should seek that in the Vatican or in Saudi Arabia'. Why?
because India is a hindu country and reservations were offered to lower castes because of the past crimes committed by hindu society.

Secondly, for all the theories about AIT, you were the one opposing reservation for dalits and OBCs while I was supporting it.

rgds

kela... well, I am sure of you twist my words enough so they are not anything like what I said, you could draw whatever conclusion you want.

So you talked to people online, is it? I am sure there is nothing I can say to convince you. But for all the others who are actually listening, most americans do not claim to have native blood. of course, some do. There is a lot of racial mixing in the US, and I am a prime example of that.

"my types?"... hmmm..what is that, Italian Lithuanian Jews married to South Indians? Yes, we really avoid racial intermixing. Extensively. My soon to be born child will be the anomaly, thanks.

Duh.

What I mean is that there is a very serious drive amongst Native Americans to preserve bloodlines and culture, especially given the amount of culture and language loss being experienced today. Many native americans are moving back to tribal lands and are making efforts to marry other natives, particularly from their same tribe. This had been going on for some time.

Lomi #68


No Response. Given up?


rgds

Atlantaen- your post clearly shows your intense dislike for the dalits/adivasis.As regards whatever you typed ,what are your sources ? Wikipedia has a completely different thing to say to what you typed.
As regards PARANOIA ,pray tell me who are the people hell bent on trying to change our history books and so on and so forth ?
And finally ,none of you haters have bothered to look at the topic at hand and attempted to provide a reasonable answer.You all have just brushed it aside as an act of a moron.Tell me wasn't Hitler influenced by the Aryan race in India ?Isn't it true he looked down upon the racial intermixing in India and therefore spoke about a pure Aryan race?and finally don't upper caste hindus consider themselves Aryans ?Answer these questions and everything will fall in place

ss - you're the one misquoting me -
"The rest of us showed up on the scene waaaaay later, so it makes no sense to say that most americans claim to be natives"
i never said they claimed to be natives,i said they claimed to have a native link ,big difference DUH
[EDITED - IP BANNED]

Kela... that's about it. I refuse to talk to someone who resorts to personal attacks against an unborn child. grow up. that is wildly uncalled for. You can disagree with me all day long, but saying something like that is pretty horrible.

Chndra : this is what you typed-
"Chandra: No. They dont. This is a Hindu nation. Hindus should get all preferences and jobs. Christians wishing reservation can migrate peacefully to christian countries and muslim dalits to OIC. We can create a small budget for this migration, not a problem"

He made that comment and nobody had a problem with that and I'm not surpised cause all my detractors here are just conceited and prejudiced upper caste Hindus who essentially don't belong to the land.As regards Chandra's support for reservations ,knowing these sif -wallahs i seriously doubt his intentions.

Which is why he's unwelcome here anymore.

IP banned LOL .I'm not surprised again since this blog belongs to an upper caste Hindu

Don't jump to conclusions, you're under enough shit as it is.

Hi Kela (Christian)

Here is your original comment to me (Hindu)

I went to Vatican and read an interesting sign there-

"hindus and dogs not allowed"

Chandra - you know what ? that was exactly the sign i saw outside a Hindu temple I visited in kerala.

well i'm out of here for good since i've been "IP banned".Have fun with your silly blog :)

More Kela comments

"We syrian christians are Brahmin converts so technically I should dictate and you follow.You have no right to question a brahman"



So much for AIT....

i mean the sign said "non-hindus and dogs not allowed"

Chandra thats called throwing shit at each other,there's really no point

SmallSquirrel - he's just trolling. I wouldn't get too upset if I were you.

A while back one of the people at Bollywhat wanted to gather Hitler imagery in Bollywood films and asked around. What was interesting to me, when I thought about it, is that our image of Hitler is derived from Charlie Chaplin's Great Dictator. So we have the goofy little man with farcical tin pot tyrant symptoms - and we're so busy laughing at the parody that we forget what it is we're mocking.

Can both of you take your love-fest offline or something? It has turned a legitimate discussion into a poo-slinging contest that is benefiting no one.

amrita... hmmm! never thought about it that way. that is interesting. thanks for getting us back on topic.

N/P... it all comes back to Bollywood :)

SS...

Kela 88 quoted me in a conversation with somebody else.It is only fair that I respond. As far as your suggestion to take it offline or something...thank you.....


rgds

Chandra: Liar ,those comments were while conversing with me.As regards taking it offline,I am more than willing.

smallsquirrel #94, this site has been under the attack of personal finger pointing, verbal flame wars, etc but my request to you would be, please don't give up. Just give it a go, and I very much appreciate your comment #94. Often

"Well-timed silence hath more eloquence than speech." -- Martin F. Tupper

Also made a post here at Desicritics on something that may interest you. Check here.

Kela,

You set up a strawman here:

Atlantaen- your post clearly shows your intense dislike for the dalits/adivasis.

Nowhere in my comment did I refer to dalits and adivasis. Substantiate your baseless allegation (that is, if you bother to substantiate anything you say.)

whatever you typed ,what are your sources

You want sources eh? Here:

India and Africa did belong to the same land mass once. It was called Gondwanaland. However, Gondwanaland broke up into several landmasses (Australia, Madagascar, Africa, South America, Arabia, India, Antarctica) during the Jurassic (Mesozoic Epoch, 225 - 60 million years ago.) -

References:

1. NCERT Class XI Textbook "Physical Geography."
2. Physical Geography by Savindra Singh, Prayag Pustak Bhavan, 2001.

BUT anatomically modern humans did not appear until just 130,000 years ago in Africa.

References:

1. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_being#Evolution

Bipedal hominids did not develop until 4 million years before present.

References:

1. Human Geography by Majid Hussain, Rawat Publications, 2002.

Africa was the first continent to be colonised by hominids.

References:

1. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_being#Evolution

India was colonised much later. The academically accepted time of human migration into India is 250,000 years ago.

References:

1. NCERT Class XI History Textbook "Ancient India", Ram Sharan Sharma, 2005.

The five most important races in India are:

1. Negrito.
2. Proto-Australoid.
3. Bracycephalic.
4. Caucasoid.
5. Mongoloid.

Anyway, over time there has been a massive intermixture of all these races. It is now extremely hard to identify clearcut racial qualities in most Indians (with exceptions.)

References: B. S. Guha's classification of Indian people into various races. I forgot to add, there's a 6th group "Palaeo Mediterranean" in addition to those 5. In his theory, he states that there has been a lot of intermixture of these main races and the character of each of these races has changed due to the climatic conditions in the Indian subcontinent. For example, the Caucasoid population of North India have largely lost their true Nordic Caucasoid features (pale skin and blue eyes) as their skin has become darker and blue eyes have largely disappeared. If you compare a north Indian with a person from the Caucasus Range (who retains the most original Caucasoid features), there are easily observable differences. This is from my classroom work. My teacher, Ms. Neetu Singh, is a Geography graduate from the Delhi School of Economics.

All these races are foreign to the Indian subcontient because the sources of all these races exist outside India.

Because:

1. Mongoloid - origin in East Asia.
2. Caucasoid - origin in the Caucasus Range (Azerbaijan, Georgia, Armenia.)
3. Negrito - origin in Tanzania, SouthEast Asia.
4. Dinaric Caucasoid (Brachycephalic) - origin in Dinaric Alps, Balkan Peninsula.
5. PalaeoMediterranean - around the Mediterranean sea, before the origion of Dinaric Caucasoids.
6. ProtoAustraloid - Australia, Melanesia.

Similarly, the Dravidian nationalists believe - that there was a "lost continent" called Kumari Kandam [...] civlization to the world. Sounds familiar?

References:

1. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumari_kandam#In_Dravidian_national_mysticism

You accuse:

And finally ,none of you haters have bothered to look at the topic at hand and attempted to provide a reasonable answer.

I'm not a hater and I havent written anything which amounts to hate. Please read my comment again. And I'm afraid whatever you said applies to YOU rather than us. We are providing evidence and reason to substantiate our arguments but you're hardly doing that. Besides, you're making baseless accusations.

Tell me wasn't Hitler influenced by the Aryan race in India ? Isn't it true he looked down upon the racial intermixing in India and therefore spoke about a pure Aryan race?

He did. So what?! How does that change anything or how does that substantiate your argument? Do you believe in everything that Hitler stated? For example, Hitler stated that Jews are outsiders and need to be eliminated. Do you believe that?

and finally don't upper caste hindus consider themselves Aryans ?

No they dont. I wonder if most of them even know or care about the Aryan theory.

Next time, try to substantiate what you say instead of blindly throwing abuses at everybody.

Atlantean- i refuse to post any more comments unless Mr Aaman makes an apology for hurting my ego

-----Blessed Relief---------

tanay... thanks! oh, I won't give up. nor have I. I am just waiting for people to chill out and say something constructive rather than use this thread as a means to take out personal aggression. I might refuse to talk to individuals, but the chance of me actually shutting up in general are slim to none.

Will check out your post for sure.
PEACE! :)

The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...

Kela has almost given up. Unable to respond to criticism from everyone, he's played a masterstroke. He has changed the scene of the battle - to my own blog.

Everybody assemble at http://atlantean.wordpress.com/2007/03/25/hypocrisy/#comments to carry forward the battle against Kela's ignorance, hatred and hypocrisy.

Atlantean, I can't remember if you're a Desicritic already, but you should be:)

i guess i find enough 'ignoramuses' in Hyderabad too. a whole family with about 3 cars with the 'swastika' emblazoned on their windshields next to my office!

i guess they know not. for them sporting the 'nike' swoosh or the adidas brand symbol is the same.

recently read an article about the 'rootlessness' of consumerist existence, where symbols and consumption of some symbolic kind is a 'tribal call' in urban areas.

anyways, the issue, i believe is deeper than apparent expressions of symbols. the malaise is deeper.

nevertheless, SS, the debate raised many debates, biases, assumptions about the indian society. here is a cauldron, boiling and very few of us can claim to know what's cooking :(

i do not want to hijack the discussion from the horror of the holocaust to the 'meritocracy' arguments bandied about and the apparent omnipotence and omnipresence and the apparent equity of market based political economy. at best i guess it is a myth!

whatever the orgins of the dalits, the fact is that they have been the most discriminated about, and are a shame for the indian society and a deep scar on our collective conscience. do they deserve the sympathy that the jews get in the world is not the moot point. the issue is that, still they are discriminated against, sullied, and their intelligence is questioned by 'meritocracywallahs' and so on.

another debate, another space and time i guess.

the 'swastika' wearers apart, the world, it seems is veering towards an intolerant tilt, and a lack of comprehension of differences that exist. sad, but true.

balaji... thank you so much for a well thought out post! I think you have touched on many of the issues that might underly just why this sort of thing might happen.

I brought this issue up not because I think jews deserve more sympathy than anyone else, or that we someone deserve more respect because of what happened. many many groups have suffered the same horrors, and continue to do so. I brought it up because we should know why we are so apathetic. I do not disagree that dalits face a difficult time here, and I do not know the half of what that looks like. But I do know that hyperbole and rhetoric and flaming never create a dialog that welcomes understanding.

anyway, thanks again, I think that was a great example of what happens when people think :)

Heh, note how Balaji puts 'meritocracy' in quotes.

He clearly doesn't believe that people should be judged on merit. He'll tell us that people should be hired and rewarded based on politics, rather than on how hard they work.

Next he'll be putting 'honesty' in quotes too, and claiming that crime and corruption are good things. How typical of socialist brain-washing.

Keep it up, Balaji. Keep pretending that the fastest Olympic runner should be based not on who runs fastest, but on what caste they are. Keep pretending that the winner of the Cricket World Cup should be based not on who scores the best, but on which team has which caste.

Keep preaching your upside-down perversion.
You deserve medical treatment by a doctor who only got 50% on his exams but was passed anyway in order to uplift his community. You deserve to lie in the bed that you make. Don't foist your corruption on other people -- live and absorb the consequences of it yourself, without throwing it onto others.

Sanjay... I did not read that far into it. I thought it was just a wee commentary on how far out of hand the previous days' discussions had become.

As far as I am concerned, I do not have to agree with what *anyone* says... as long as they give their thoughts in a respectful manner. It causes people to think... maybe you think more about why you disagree, like you did. That's also good. :)

Hey kela,

Do you actually believe in this Kumarikandam thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemuria_%28continent%29

kela, I sssecretly confesssssss, I am one of the reptilian beings from Lemuria, the lossssst ssssunken continent. We're coming to get you, kela

The sssserpent people will risssse again.
It'ssss all part of the great anti-Tamil conssssspirasssy

We sssssnake-men were driven from our Empire due to the Tamil forssses. But we will have our revenge. We have contacted our leader Ssssauron and found a new ally in Sssssaruman of Isssssengarde.

Remember -- the Great Eye knowssss all, sssssees all.

Muuahahahahahaaaaaaa
HisssSSSsssSSSsssssSSSssss

Sanjay

Kahe uske peeche pade ho....bechara ka logon ne khub liya hain.....anyway,good one :-)

rgds

well the rss and rest of the sangh parivar which is caste hindu entity do not hide their admiration or Hitler and his policies. Its no wonder those urban caste hindu boys wearing those swastika shirts. Racism has always been a part of brahminical society, as old as the invasion of the aryans and their varna ranking system. Indians are a mixed lot, but the caste hindus of north india dont hide their longing for some mythic aryan roots.

Aaman,

I'm already a Desicritic but I dont write much. Thanks anyway :)

Damas,

It's easy to speak whatever comes to your mouth but extremely hard to use the brain instead. No?

**bangs head against hard surface repeatedly**

SS, maybe this would be of some comfort- You are featured in the DC culture spotlight section:)

Ssssanjay,

I was going to write more about the Talmud - what Kela posted was really offensive shit, not to mention, taken all out of context, but it appears that since you sssserpent people from Lemuria are going to gobble up poor Kela sometime in the near future, he should pass to the next world with his fantasies intact.

One thing, Ssssanjay. When you gobble up Kela, make sure you put sufficient curry to cover up the barnyard odor he emits in his posts...

Give my regards to Sssauron. Haven't seen the old man in a dogs' age....

thanks deepti... my only consolation would be if people would stop the personal attacks. :P

OK guys, seriously. We all know that some people are really offensive. But I am pretty sure that being offensive back is the answer. It's not like if you call someone names you're going to hurt their ego or change their mind... all you're doing is pouring petrol on the fire and further hindering a dialog.

Please <>
No. More. Personal. Attacks.

(even if you really, really think they deserve it. even if they are so offensive you can barely control yourself. Right? carry on!)

Smallsquirrel,

Once, I thought I had found a site that might link certain Buddhist groups to Nazism. Because the publisher of this site, Desicritics.org, is a Buddhist himself, and because I respect him, I was very reluctant to put this up on Desicritics.org, even if were to be true (something which so far, does not appear to be the case, though suspicions linger about a certain individual). It was only with profuse apologies that I posted a link here.

In commenting to Sanjay about Kela above, I only put a drop of acid in the ink, and attempted to keep it all light-hearted, but sharp enough to get the point across.

But the comment that Kela posted to this article about violence in religion on the Talmud (comment#77) was a deliberate misrepresentation of what the Talmud contains, and what it is for.

The Talmud is not a "law book" in the sense that you or I would view a law book. It is a discussion of ideas that deal with legal issues and most specifically with instructions that Moshe gave to his brother Aharon, the first High Priest, but which always start with a concept in the Torah. The remarks Kela posted are part of wide ranging discussions. The Babylonian Talmud is 63 or 64 thick volumes, and there are fewer in the Jerusalem Talmud, of which many books have been lost to history. But these volumes are the scribbled notes by scribes of discussions held in various villages in ancient Israel by the remnants of the Sanhedrin after the Romans had destroyed the Temple of Hordós in Jerusalem. In a sense, they can be called judicial deliberations, but because there was nobody to provide a final authoritative summary, for the most part, decisions were not reached, something which vexes my son no end.

For a millennium and a half the Talmud was the survival manual of our people. Now that the promised messianic Redemption is approaching, it is possible to shift gears somewhat and focus more on the Prophecies in the Tana"kh (the Hebrew Bible), but for countless generations of Jews, Redemption was but a distant dream.

Hence the tone of my comment to Sanjay about Kela, who had these remarks coming his/her? way.

Ruvy... I get ya... my beseeching of people to behave was certainly not directed at any one person. Believe me, as a jew married to an extremely socially conscious brahmin, I was not happy either.

I believe strongly that your race, your caste, and to a certain extent your religion is all an accident of birth. It is what you do with your life that matters. Saying "all brahmins" this or "all jews" that simply makes no sense in this day and age.

Aaman

Is it possible you could allow Kela to post again? Overall, I thought he was a colorful guy.....apart from his nonsense posts which I think he started posting after my needless provocation. I apologise for that.


rgds

He hasn't tried to post, he would be able to if he did

Ruvy - its called trolling. responding on a serious level just feeds the beast.

The western world be it Europe or North-America is not the centre of focus for the entire world. The wests recent history really doesn't mean much to other cultures. Genocide is never a good thing, but history tells us it has happened before and it will happen again. Its happening right now and you are still concerned about the people who died 60 years ago what about the people dying now? or tomorrow?

The first weapon used to turn people against people is by dehumanizing the targeted group, the Nazis had turned it into an art form.

Uma's current post seems to be an appropriate reaction to this thread. The only way we can hold dialog is if we concentrate at the heart within or else its merely a shouting match:)

If you are concern with genocide and Nazis that happened 60 years ago why not think about the genocide of the Carthaginians thousands of years ago or more recently the Rwandans. At some point you have to face the fact these horrible events get decensitized and their impact forgotten.

@CHANDRA:
Aaman
Is it possible you could allow Kela to post again? Overall, I thought he was a colorful guy.....apart from his nonsense posts which I think he started posting after my needless provocation. I apologise for that.
@Aaman:
He hasn't tried to post, he would be able to if he did

Double teaming against a poor guy. I thought this was a democratic forum. Anyway nice job guys, u guys are so clever (sarcasm).

@Akira:
If you are concern with genocide and Nazis that happened 60 years ago why not think about the genocide of the Carthaginians thousands of years ago or more recently the Rwandans. At some point you have to face the fact these horrible events get decensitized and their impact forgotten.

Well some lives are bigger than other. Some people are mightier than others. Some human lives is more important than others.

lomi, we are an open forum, but have simple rules - no personal attacks - anyone violates those rules, especially repeatedly, gets a cooling off, some mature, and stop doing it.

Please for god's sake (where ever it has gone these past 2000 years) stop using an age old excuse to subjugate another person. We are ALL human, we are not responsible for something assholes did 200-300-400-500000 years ago. We are here now, no god's no devine power over another because of faith or belief (no matter how up your own god's ass you are) we are alone together.....

smallsquirrel - good post, enjoyed reading it and enjoyed reading all the comments.

I would like to add something on a lighter note. Living in B'lore you might be aware of a popular T-shirt brand in India called Tantra. I once bought a T-shirt, which had the Indian "good" swastika and the text on the Tshirt read - Swastika - for 4000 years before a mad man from Germany discovered it.

Maybe they should start printing more of those tees. :)

The following is a quote by Madhudvisa dasa, a devotee of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

"So the Vedas recognize different people have different skills and qualifications, but it is no by birth, it is by guna [qualification] and karma [work]. So if someone born of a sudra [worker] father becomes qualified [guna] and works as [karma] a brahmana he should be accepted as a brahmana... In the same way if the son of a brahmana doesn't have the qualifications of a brahmana or work as a brahmana then he is not a brahmana. There are so many examples of this in the Vedic scriptures.

The current Indian system is something like accepting the sons of supreme court judges as supreme court judges... It's nonsense. They have to be qualified, they have to attend the university and pass the course, then they have to work under a qualified judge and get the practical experience, then they may be able to become supreme court judges...

This is one of the main problems in our society now [both in India and in the US]... No one knows who is who and so many jobs which should be being performed by Brahmins and ksatriyas are being done by sudras... It is said kalo sudra sambhavah, "In the age of Kali everyone is a sudra." So it is a very difficult time. Mostly people are sudras, there may be a few vaisyas [businessmen] but almost no ksatriyas or Brahmins... This is the problem. We are not training them. The intelligent people are available, but instead of training them as Brahmins and ksatriyas we are training them as technologists. But these are sudra jobs..."

Ultimately, everyone must understand the fundamental principle that they are not this temporary body, but eternal spirit soul. When this knowledge is actually understood, one will accept the fact that death is no more than the final change of the body. So the wise will lament neither for the living nor for the dead. Unless you are developing love for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is known as Govinda among many other countless names, your human life is being wasted. Hare Krishna!!

Here is Srila Prabhupada's take on the word Aryan.

"Real business is athato brahma-jijnasa. This human life, nature, gives us the opportunity to inquire about the Absolute Truth. We have got the intelligence. The cats and dogs, they have no intelligence to inquire about the Absolute Truth. The trees, the plants, the aquatics, the animals, the beasts, the uncivilized man--so many, 8,400,000 forms and species of life. Out of that, the civilized men, the Aryans... Arya. Arya means the person who has got godly qualification. This is the meaning of Aryan. Aryan, advanced. Aryan does not mean godless society. They are non-Aryans. Real Aryan means... Because we are part and parcel of God, naturally we have got, in minute quantity, the qualities of God. That is natural. But on account of our material association, those qualifications are covered now by upadhi, by various designations. This is our material disease. Material disease means... Just like a gold is covered by dirty, dirty things. Similarly, we are actually gold, because part and parcel of Krsna. We are a small Krsna, very small, but we are also the same quality. But it is covered. This is our disease. And these coverings are going on in different names--socialism, communism, and this "ism"--so many. "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am white," "I am black"--these are all designations."

[750325CC.MAY Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 1.1 Mayapur, March 25, 1975]

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Do you ask how high when he says jump?

this person needs to get her facts right.
the good swastika, at least in india, is almost always right facing, exactly like the nazi swastika.
the left facing swastika is mostly found in buddhist reliefs, and is more popularly seen in china and japan.

secondly, so what?

just because the romans killed a lot of people under the caesarian symbol of an eagle with spread wings, does that mean that america should not have the eagle with spread wings on any of its emblems?

maybe indians associate with the organisation that hitler brought germany, maybe they associate with the nazi sense of racial pride, which is something that definitely flies in india, seeing as how indians make racist jokes about anyone and everyone else with reckless abandon.

but this, 'oh lets educate the indians about the holocaust' attitude is what is pissing me off. indian hindus have suffered a holocaust of our own at the hands of muslim invaders. over the 800 years that india suffered muslim invasions, an estimated 60 million hindus died as a result of massacres, extra-judicial killings and the like. how many indians, leave alone jews elsewhere in the world, know about this?

how many americans know that terrorism in kashmir had claimed 30,000 lives before they went to war with the muslim world when 3000 americans died? how many americans can even point kashmir out on a map?

people need to stop being so touchy feely, seriously.

Vegen

Cleary Hitler was a racist. But he was not alone. During his time, there were university courses on race hygiene! A lot of philosophers read and misunderstood Darwin's theory of evolution and came up with several philosophies of race and race supremacy. In the US there were a number of race hygiene organization calling for eugenics.

Since the end of WWII, people in the west are constantly reminded that Hitler is pure evil. Anyone disputing the official version of the history is locked up. For example, the historian David Irving is in prison for disputing the 6 million figure. So much for freedom of expression in the west.

So, when we accuse people of India for not knowing about Hitler the pure evil, we also should realize that living in the west, our view is also limited to one version. The other versions are brutally suppressed in the west.

Hello fellow critics, as I went through the series of criticisms and discourses listed herein I saw the topic digress from neo-nazism to aryan hubris. It was even stated that the neo-nazi advertising kids were "upper-class" kids who believed they were superior to fellow citizens - all that without any evidence testifying or slightly supporting the arguement. Herein I do not wish to comment on the aspects of neo-nazism but rather on aspects of a constricted outlook that is the caste system in India. The so called "upper-castes" are upper only because their alleged superiority is not openly questioned by the so called "lower-castes". Also a scientific survey report was used to prove that "upper-caste" citizens have a foreign descent. Albeit that might have been true 10,000 years ago, cross-breeding has mingled our genes so much that most of us have a genetic background derived from a local pool with many common traits - that is what the local university reports mentioned proved. Pure bred individuals are very very rare today in India. Morever aryans or otherwise, we have all together fought for India, we have all toiled its soil lived here for aeons, be it the Aryans or the Mughals we have all become a part of India. Unlike the British rule which drained away resources from India, we all added to its richness , culture and beauty. The land of gold and honey , as once it was called, is alas now no more so. We survived together throughout the pages of history. As regarding the caste system, once it was not rigid the son may have a different caste from his father depending on his skills, however like the status of women in society that too faced deterioration into hereditary caste system. And today is the best example of degeneration when politicians to satisfy their greed for votes and power can easily divide the people - be it minority policies or reservations, they use this to gather vote banks and turn people against each other, divide them so that no one notices the corruption they propagate. Alas I love my country just too much to want this to happen to it. Please my brothers bring about an age of equality where we are first and foremostly Indians rather than Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, SC/ST, OBC, General etc. please do not divide yourself, we didn't overthrow the British Rule as a divided lot.
Regards

vegen... I have my facts straight. And I am not being condescending about it either. was my tone one of "educating" anyone? nah. I simply asked a question. maybe you need to look inside yourself to see why my simple question got you so defensive. I also said that I do not believe that the killing of any one group is worse than the killing of another. so please, read what is there... not your own prejudices.

Dharma... not sure your angle is entirely accurate there. you can dispute the facts all you want in the US and other places. Germany is a little more stringent in it's allowances. but there are holocasut deniers all over the world.

Also a scientific survey report was used to prove that "upper-caste" citizens have a foreign descent. Albeit that might have been true 10,000 years ago, cross-breeding has mingled our genes so much that most of us have a genetic background derived from a local pool with many common traits - that is what the local university reports mentioned proved.

Evidences and References please! Please take us to those reports. Either give us the URLs or the names of the books. Thank you.

I sensed in some of the comments above, a resentment that "history" is ONLY the history of the Christians in Western Europe, North America, and the rest of the world is only touched upon to the degree that Christians of Western Europe involved themselves. It makes for a terribly skewered view of history.

This is a resentment that I tend to share. There is a great deal of history that I have to teach my children myself simply because the schools here in Israel mimic much of the history curriculum of of the gymnasia of Germany or of the school systems in Western Europe. And if I hadn't been interested in history when I was a kid, would they know? Would I?

Some former Americans can pick out Jammu and Kashmir on a map, know what the Line of Control is, etc... But too many can't even find Colombia on a map or British Columbia. And they neither know the difference nor give a damn.

See, I think that is a generalization we can make about people from EVERY country. Many people in India and around the world think they know US or European history because they watch Star World.

It's a rash generalization to say that Westerners don't know history or geography because you saw on Jay Leno where they pick out the stupidest of the bunch and exploit them or you meet some wild morons in chat rooms. Yeah, for sure there are extremely ignorant people in the US. As there are everywhere. And yes, in many places, the view of history that is taught is skewed. But in many other places there are responsible educators. And there are also people who do not just cluelessly suck in everything that is spoonfed to them and believe it without questioning.

I am not the world's biggest patriot. I do not agree with the current policies ( and many of the past policies) of the US Government. But I am getting really sick of people attacking the US for sport. It is now commonplace for anyone to feel comfortable generalizing that all americans are too stupid to find their own feet with a map and a compass. If we said such things about others there would be rioting.

I do not disagree that the official version of history can be really tainted by those who have power. I realize that, and therefore am skeptical of many sources of information. But please do not think that I am the only one.

To assume that brandishing of a Nazi swastika in India is some form of neo-nazism is foolish. To assume that caste-based-discrimination doesn't exist just because a bunch of modern urban yuppie upper castes do not practice it is dangerous.

Most of those yuppie crowd who sport Nazi symbols may not know their significance (or its notoriety). However, to deny that Hindu supremacists equate themselves to Aryans or Germans and that they admire Hitler is irresponsible.

Mein Kampf, whether readers actually catch the message or not, is a widely sold book in India. Hitler, whether the people know about Holocaust or not, is an acclaimed hero to many upper caste Hindus.

Even people like Vajpayee, the moderate lot amongst Hindu nationalist parties, consider themselves to be Aryans. Whether Hitler would have agreed with them or not is irrelevant.

The younger urban lot who comprise mostly upper caste Hindus have greater admiration of Hitler- not knowing what he represents in the Western World.

But then such stupid and nonsensical identification is not confined to upper caste Hindus alone. Many Muslims admire Timur and even Osama Bin Laden.

Sujai: "Even people like Vajpayee, the moderate lot amongst Hindu nationalist parties, consider themselves to be Aryans."

Chandra: Source?

Sujai: However, to deny that Hindu supremacists equate themselves to Aryans or Germans and that they admire Hitler is irresponsible.

Chandra: Source?

Sujai:Hitler, whether the people know about Holocaust or not, is an acclaimed hero to many upper caste Hindus

Chandra: Source?

rgds

Smallsquirrel,

I do not make my claims about the ignorance of Americans from watching TV shows. I lived in the United States fore almost five decades and was educated in one of the finest public school systems of the day (which has sadly gone downhill). I was a fast food manager in Minnesota before coming home to Israel and worked with lots of teenagers - employees of the store. I got to know them as people.

Americans are not a stupid lot - but they are terribly self-absorbed. The curriculum in the schools, combined with the focus of marketing there, helps to keep them that way.

When in high school many years ago, I wanted to know why my social studies teacher was concentrating on England, France, Germany and Italy for the third time! We had done all this in 5th grade, 7th grade and now again in 10th grade. I pointed to the map of Europe and asked why we learned nothing about Russia or Poland or Lithuania in the 15th centuries, and barely anything about the Mongol invasions, etc.

He shrugged his shoulders and said, "it's not in the curriculum mandated by the State of New York."

The quality of schools in the States has gone down since then. I pulled into a gas station in the late '90's and bought nine gallons of gas and presented the clerk, a high school kid, with a coupon that gave me three cents off for each gallon of gas purchased. He needed a calculator to figure out the 9x3=27!! I saw the same inability to do simple arithmetic (like figuring change) in nearly every high school kid I interviewed for a job at the Burger King I managed.

They knew everything there was to know about all the electronic junk and gadgets floating around in the malls, all the CD's, Walkman's, etc. etc. But if someone had come up to them to buy one and had given them a $100 bill for a Walkman costing $49.99, they would not have been able to figure the change, much less the tax.

No generalizations here, Smallsquirrel - just experience.

Chandra:
If you care to ask people some direct questions, the world will seem far clearer. Then you wouldn't ask for sources for every observation! :-)

Vajpayee said that in a speech- that too in Hindi.

Sorry. Can't provide sources for every thing that I write in the comments. If there was a study done already, may be, we wouldn't have this debate. We would have had a different kind of debate- as to whether that study was properly done or not.

Complete education is not possible only through internet. Talking to people helps. Talking to Hindu organizations helps. Listening to what Shiv Sena and VHP says will help. Reading some of the pamphlets that they distribute helps. Knowing what kind of population supports and participates in those parties helps.

ruvy... ya, OK I do not dispute what you are saying there. it's pretty accurate in many areas in many econ groups. but then look at the money that does not come into the schools. look at how much these teachers are struggling in many cities with no textbooks and no help. I am not making excuses, just... the government seems to not care and that trickles down.

but still, I think still there are many good schools.

Sujai

Well, if there are just observations it is possible that events to the contrary may have also been observed. Therefore, when you make claims that are contrary to my observation, it is only natural that I will question you.

As far as your claims about Hindu organisations/vajpayee go, as long as there is no source on the basis of your claims I will not believe you. Simple.


rgds

Chandra:
Please do not believe. My efforts were not aimed at making you (or someone out there) believe. There are people out there who DO NOT believe that man landed on the moon. And then there are those who believe that a cat crossing your path will decide your faith. To each his own.

Not all observations have sources either. If India and its events were recorded so well, there wouldn't be a debate if there is caste-based-discrimination or not. There are enough signs to suggest such discrimination exists, but people want proof. When data is examined, they say it is inadequate. and so on. Then there are people who deny Holocaust.

Just because the number of rapes that are reported is extremely low in India, should we infer that India is really good in its treatment of women? Some would say, 'I need proof'. Some others know better.

Sujai

Well....you can all kinds of examples...the fact is you said something and you donot have too much to back it up with.

As far as reservations go, there is solid data to indicate the need for one. In fact when I posted that data the other day, not one disputed the data

Same holds true with rape. There is enough data to suggest any claim about how women are treated.

I think all your statements about 'you know better' is another way of saying 'sorry mate, no evidence'.

rgds

"Dharma... not sure your angle is entirely accurate there. you can dispute the facts all you want in the US and other places."

Really? You obviously have not heard of a Desi English major Ph.D student kicked out from a US university for teaching a course on Literature of Palastinian struggle.

There are many other instances of such incidents. Just because the corporate media doesn't cover them doesn't mean they do not exist!

[EDITED - YOU JUST PROVED THE AUTHOR'S POINT dimwit]
Swastika is originally an Aryavarta(thats india's one of many names,[EDITED])symbol,meaning it has been used here b4 ur [EDITED] race existed [EDITED].So any indian can use it without explaiining its use to anyone I MEAN ANYONE.
so [EDITED]

@Ruvy, good points you make. At least you had a map to show and ask for other histories. Most Indian schools don't have that luxury of a map, let alone a teacher who can teach a variety of histories.

It would be nice if this website has a feature to filter. For instance filtering all "Kela" posts seems to improve the discourse.

filtering sounds a bit Nazi-like, don't you think?

PAVAN

But I do recall you could buy a TTK global map.

rgds

Smallsquirrel, the point is exactly that the swastika-wearing kid is not going to attack so your sensitivities should be different as opposed to the same secnario in the 'civilized' Europe. If there is no supporting aggressive feeling than the swastika is a bad taste in this context. Its very important we separate a structure of hate vs stupidity.

Besides if I may throw some light on history; Indian states and kingdoms did fight battels and kill people but that's just a simplistic statement. What Iam referring is the very Hegelian struggle of violent replete in European history, where the human progress and movement is perceived through struggle, where violence is part of the evolution. Just refer to European Union's documents where the word war and peace appears more frequently than in teh Indian context. iF YOU ARE AUDACIOUS ENOUGH TO REWRITE INDIAN HISTROY THATS FINE; BUT INDIAN STATE FORMATION DID NOT GO THROUGH THE SMA EAMOUTN OF VIOLENT STRUGGLE AS EVIDENT IN EUROPE. I DARE SAY THIS IS AN INTELLECTUAL CONSENSUS ABOUT EUROPEAN HISTORY. I would accept a refutation only when done with the intellectual richness and not broad statements of all us being equally bad. However this is not a value judgement but more the interpretation of movement and dynamism of Western European history as also being violent as compared to the statism of Orient!!! Surely Gujarat riots are a disgrace but its not holocaust on the scale of Europe's second world war. We have lots of condemnation and rebuke heaped on the leadership in Gujarat. Anyway lets be guarded against prejudiced version of India!!!

AnArch: "filtering sounds a bit Nazi-like, don't you think?"

How come? Each user filters to their liking. One has a choice of turning off or on as needed. What's Nazi-like in that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRSOdylUbmc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qukzYFW1uww

Hitler was inspired by manudharma shastra, the racist textbook of vedic hindus. 2000+ years of racism, poverty, rape, segregation, murder, social boycott, burning of houses and the yet the hindus haven't apologized for their crimes against dalits, tribals and hindus.

Dharma... well, universities have the right to look at the curriculum of their teachers and act on that if it doesn't fall in line with their core values. I know nothing about this case, and if you want me to seriously consider it, you need to provide way more information. But I will tell you that no Uni would boot someone just for teaching about Lit of the Palestinian struggle. Many unis teach that, it's nothing new or shocking. But what does that have to do with what we're talking about, anyway????

Ron... so we worry only when ppl attack? uh....
Come on! Prejudice breeds ignorance, which eventually can turn into discrimination. I also never said I thought it was a situation where I felt threatened I just wanted to know what might be behind it.

Arvind 172

I am sure you are helping a lot in bringing society together. There must be more people like you.


rgds

Hi,

nice article and an awesome "Discussions" thread.

Some things are clear from the article and discussions and common reality:

Hitler is a "personality" liked by Aryans, esp, RSS, VHP, etc, just like Osama is among SIMI,JEI,LET,etc

So its not surprising if Swastika and Mein kampf are hot items in present India (this is my personal experience from some of my upper caste Kashmiri pandit friends)

Well, brothers and sisters continue the discussions, I have learned a lot about Geography and History from this page.

Thanks n regards,

You seem to be missing my point,smallsquirrel, I wish to mention that the symbol of swastika has to be looked at differently in India than in say Europe. I wish to also emphasize that a lot of these Europeans do not appreciate our tolerance when we put up with lot of junkie westerners going around insulting us and misbehaving. I detest this self-righteous Europeans who complain about being cheated in price....oh my dear friend I feel so soory for you to be cheated by a few pennies. We have in lots of tourist places Europeans descending in hordes and hurling insults at us, we are what we are, good, bad and ugly but its our land!!! So I think we are a fairly tolerant society where a swastika is an aberration and wish to correct that this tolerance is not universal but surely white Europeans do enjoy very comfortable climate here in metros. This given the horrid reception for imigrants who journeyed to do the euro 'work' which no local wanted to do...
However your point taken and we should be vigilant of our tolerant tradition. I also call upon Europeans to look into their own backyard before pointing fingers at us!!!

You seem to be missing my point,smallsquirrel, I wish to mention that the symbol of swastika has to be looked at differently in India than in say Europe. I wish to also emphasize that a lot of these Europeans do not appreciate our tolerance when we put up with lot of junkie westerners going around insulting us and misbehaving. Their tourist passion for photographing our poverty is just damn distasteful. I detest this self-righteous Europeans who complain about being cheated in price....oh my dear friend I feel so soory for you to be cheated by a few pennies after the long spell of colonial history. We have in lots of tourist places Europeans descending in hordes and hurling insults at us, we are what we are, good, bad and ugly but its our land, one should respect it !!! So I think we are a fairly tolerant society where a swastika is an aberration and wish to correct that this tolerance is not universal but surely white Europeans do enjoy very comfortable climate here in metros. This given the horrid reception for imigrants who journeyed to do the euro 'work' which no local wanted to do...
However your point taken and we should be vigilant of our tolerant tradition. I also call upon Europeans to look into their own backyard before pointing fingers at us!!!

Ron, I think what I object to is your painting of all whites/europeans as taking advantage and all Indians as victims. It's hyperbole.

Sure, there are assholes that come here and take advantage. They behave like a bull in a China shop, demand outrageous things and think they are better than everything around them. But you should also know what it is like to be someone like me who lives here, earns in rupees, pays taxes and tries to speak the local language... yet every auto driver tries to charge me at least 5 times the normal amount just because my skin is white. It's tiresome. I also have people that talk about me, saying horrible things thinking I do not understand when I do. No one is blameless in the rudeness game, Ron. I also detest self-righteous Europeans who think they are better than others. In equal measure I dislike self-righteous Indians who act as if they can do no wrong and every ill on the planet is perpetuated only by whites.

The point is, Ron, that a neo-nazi symbol is a neo-nazi symbol. you are the one who missed the point.

well neo-nazis haven't committed any crimes in India and what i find amusing is that the author doesn't forget to mention that she is married to a "Brahmin" Indian (not just any Indian;hindu is not good enough for her i guess) ,the same Brahmins who invented the discriminatory caste system and who are still tolerated in India and still continue to enjoy higher status.So it seems India is a tolerant country and if you don't like it you can pack up and buzz off :-D

@Kela: "India is a tolerant country and if you don't like it you can pack up and buzz off.."

All neo-nazis start off small with statements like these with hopes of graduating to something grand, say, concentration camps.

"India is a tolerant country and if you don't like it you can pack up and buzz off.."

This line would be more impressive in the original language, German.

Kela

Is this what you wanted to say?

Indien ist ein tolerantes Land und wenn Sie es nicht mögen, können Sie oben verpacken und weg summen

oh kela, don't be such a bore. I mentioned he was a brahmin in the context of a relevant conversation about conversation. frankly I don't give a flying shit what he is. caste means *nothing* to me. please go flog your intolerance and shit slinging somewhere else.

Karthik, Puri... (standing up clapping)) thank you.

smallsquirrel said: "...please go flog your intolerance..."

Did you mean flog or goose-step? Just wondering. ;=)

Ron- Can you fight ?where are you located ? we need more like-minded guys like you to reclaim parts of Goa that have been illegally occupied by junkies from Israel,Russia,England and more.We can arrange for a stomp fest cum holiday in Goa.
Then we could head over to kulu-manali,lots of pot smoking israelis there illegally growing weed.We can smoke some,stomp on some and head down to Goa to start all over again.Sounds fun ?

Kela, I think Ron's talking about tolerance and you intolerance. Thought you'd want to know before you put the other foot in your mouth.

puri.. hahahah!

kela... I might not agree with Ron but at least he was not intentionally trying to be offensive. I think it is sad that you think the only contribution you can make is to be intentionally disruptive and offensive, like some attention craving 6 year old. Negative attention better than no attention at all, is it? The thing is that you simply turn yourself into a joke.

Kela,

Be careful. If you want to arrange an attack on Israelis, you may discover which Israelis go to Goa and Manali to get high on your damned drugs. They are combat soldiers, Kela, the ones who get NIS 42,000 after serving their three years in the IDF. Once they figure out that they are under attack, you'll discover what "combat soldier" means. Jews don't turn the other cheek - we're not Christians - and will kick your butts but good.

Nevertheless, if you can organize a "stomp fest" and find yourself stomped by tough Jewish soldiers, maybe the Indian government will ban them from visiting your country. That would be a good thing, on balance. You'd get stomped, and IDF veterans would no longer spend money on a pack of murderous ingrates.

Then your drug dealers can find some other customers for your damned drugs...

Cheers!

Ruvy... although I think what Kela said was offensive and well, just stupid... I think he's reacting to this.

Please understand that I am saying this as one Jew to another.

Israelis come here often after being relieved from military duty and are looking to unwind. But what often ends up happening is that they come in groups, obviously very stressed out from what I am sure was not a fun stint. But they come here to party HARD, and as a result they have the impact of disrupting entire villages.

Now certainly not every Israeli that comes here is like that. I have met peaceful intelligent ones here, too. But sadly, many that do come are coming off of some shitty experiences and come here looking to blow off steam.. so they are loud, pushy and order people about. There is a lot of cultural insensitivity that ensures.

Yes, people of other cultures come here and do that too. But what happens is because the Israelis tend to come in groups, they are more noticable.

It is, to some extend, creating a lot of ill will between the locals in Goa and Israelis, which is translating into negative stereotyping of Jews in general by Indians.

smallsquirrel,

I'm fully aware of everything you say. And I do not like the idea of Israelis going anywhere to get high, as much as they might need to be relieved of being in the combat pressure cooker that is the IDF.

It is a far better thing that our kids visit the Pakhtun community in India, and learn who their relatives are, and attempt to forge real ties of friendship with other Children of Israel, than get high in dunghills in Goa or die in bad drug deals in Manali.

Nevertheless, if Kela is going to be an insensitive bastard, he should at least be aware of what he is dealing with BEFORE he loses his front teeth. Dentists cost money.

Well the thing is that Kela just talks smack to get people angry. Best thing is to just ignore him. He doesn't mean 3/4 of what he says, and the other 1.4 is just for show. But if he were to follow thru, maybe he would get some sense smacked into him (not that I advocate violence on any level from anyone)

Ruvy

Yup, we discovered what the IDF means in lebanon last July.

cheers

Ruvy

Dentists cost much lesser in India. We will get your over drugged beaten up soldiers to our best dentists, not to worry.....

chandra... come on now, no need to add unnecessary fuel to the fire. but it seems you and kela now make a nice team. is it love?

it is interesting as how 'sensitive' and 'tolerant' one tends to be!

i thought the purpose of SS's article was to bring into focus through the swastika the symbol used by the nazis and the intolerance and violence that was perpetrated under the name of nationalism, racial purity and stuff of the kind.

i can sense that there is a 'hitler' in each one of us or most of us? u just have to rub a little. the ugly genie pops out.

and how fragile our 'isms'are that we wear on our sleeves . so fragile that we need to resort to either verbal or a threat of physical violence as a shield to protect!

sad but true.

and kela, hope u read milan kundera's the joke.

tho many of your comments border on pestilence, like SS said you do it for the effect possibly, while some are smart.

ruvy,

well the might of IDF is well known. and thanks for reiterating their prowess.

while many in the world empathize with the holocaust victims and the horrors of it all, the number of people who would support a militarist israeli government seem to be getting lesser.

so what does one do with the good will of the world? convert into hatred?

and do you believe that all christians do turn the other cheek? unless that is another religious stereotype? who's george bush? a budhist?

do we not have enough 'categories' to divide all human beings under various names to justify violence?

aaaaaaaahhhh... sanity.

A rare flower in this deteriorating conversation.

Balaji, a sensible, reasoned response with plenty of room for thought. :-)

Chandra, Kela,

The thought occurred to me to translate your comments into Hebrew and send them off to a bunch of Hebrew speakers here.

If folks here understand just how well "loved" Israelis are in your country, they'll perhaps forego the trip and spend their shekels elsewhere.

Or, if they do go to India at all, they will follow my advice in comment #190...

Some real benefit may come of this after all.

Ruvy... don't be silly.

First of all, most Indians do not have bad feelings towards Jews. Do not take Kela and Chandra as representative of all Indians.

Second, Israelis need to take responsibility for their actions while they are here in India and act respectfully (just as ANY guest in someone else's country should). Just because poor areas here do need tourist dollars doesn't mean people should come in and take advantage. Maybe they should skip partying like rock stars in Goa and head to Kerala and see Jew Town in Cochin... learn about their past. Or go volunteer somewhere. Something.

Ruvy

Israelis are always welcome to India. The drug problem is very serious and not surprisingly the Indian Govt does nothing about it. On the other hand, the israeli foreign ministry and numerous private Israelis have made efforts to reign in the problem. The success has been mixed though.
However, it is needless to say that these Israelis are hated by many and as the israeli Govt has recognised, they are threat to the otherwise friendly relationship between our countries.

As far as the calibre of the IDF is concerned, am not so sure. In the early 90s, a few IDF soldiers managed to overpower and kill kashmiri militants. But that was then, the new generation that we see is far too materialistic and less determined as compared to the soldiers of the past generation (This is true with armed forces across). Their performance versus the Iranians was nowehere near their own exemplary standards.

And really, dentists are cheaper..I am serious. You can actually do an RCT for about 50-100 USD( here, as compared to 400-500 in the US and other western countries.

cheers

SS

Hey, I did not make any comments against Jews. (marna hai kya?)

I was only alluding to the quality of IDF and cost of visting dentists in India.

rgds

you were baiting, chandra dear... :)

I am sure no one wants to die for their silly comments here. we're all peace-loving individuals, right? RIGHT?

SS

Why do you say I was baiting?

rgds

"most Indians do not have bad feelings towards Jews. Do not take Kela and Chandra as representative of all Indians."

I don't. If I felt that way about Indians, I'd not bother posting here at all.

"Second, Israelis need to take responsibility for their actions while they are here in India and act respectfully (just as ANY guest in someone else's country should)."

Amén v'amén!! I agree with all this!

For your information, speaking as one Jew to another, smallsquirrel, the combat forces here are changing in nature. The majority of the combat soldiers in the IDF are religious. It is the secular minority that tokes out in Goa and Manali.

This provides an opportunity not to encourage religious soldiers to visit not ghosts of the past, like Jew Town in Cochin, but to seek out the future - the Pakhtun who call themselves Children of Israel. Nominally Moslems, they are in reality Israelites. Not Jews, Israelites. And the Pakhtun have reputations as fierce fighters. They need to meet the sons of Judah who are also fierce fighters. They need to see, fighter to fighter, that they are indeed brothers. Just as Joseph re-embraced his brothers in Egypt, Ephraim (the Pakhtun) will have to re-embrace his brother in India.

ha ha i'm so proud of myself,I just exposed the bigotry of Ruvy and his types ,ugh.Thanks for the warning Ruvy(not that i wasn't aware)I'm gonna run an extra mile and do 50 more push-ups.
And Chandra is right,more and more Indians are waking up to this junkie tourist trend,especially the media.
Chandra that's why i propose compulsory military service for all Indians.Indian army is well respected for its expertise in counter-insurgency and guerrilla warfare.

SS:seriously after what that bigot has typed you expect us to empathise with your sensitivities ? and how come he doesn't get called a troll,cause he's a jew ?

swastika wallpapers anyone ?

that's why i propose compulsory military service for all Indians. Indian army is well respected for its expertise in counter-insurgency and guerrilla warfare.

Just curious, dude,

Have you ever thought out the ramifications of an army of conscripts? Leaving aside the sheer numbers involved, have you thought out things like

1. what language(s) will basic training take place in?
2. how much education will a compulsory military provide for draftees? And in what language?
3. how will you deal with issues like caste?
4. will you have a special unit for beating up unruly tourists? (like I don't know the answer to that one!)
5. if your normal governance is corrupt as all hell (one Indian told me that it is 10 times as bad as Israel - THAT IS BAD!), how do you expect to operate a reasonably honest military in India? Think N-I-G-E-R-I-A...

Just some questions from a nasty bigot with a degree in public administration...

Go ahead, knock yourself out...

Oh Kela,

I forgot one question. Is this army going to display a swastika for its insignia?

Cheers!!

kela.... you're a wack job. i told ruvy where I did not agree with him but you can't read.. I forgot. But I am not falling for your baiting. Do whatever you feel dude, just leave me out of it.. cause I don't care.

R_frm_jerusalem,India has the second largest army in the world and are well respected ,so your comments are not in good taste and infact make you look really foolish.
Besides there was talk about introducing compulsory military service after high school for every Indian.I think it would go a long way in reducing all that corruption that you talk about.
As for insignia we already have one -crossed swords with the ashok emblem,maybe we could add a couple of army boots just for effect

India has the second largest army in the world and are well respected ,so your comments are not in good taste and infact make you look really foolish.

Besides there was talk about introducing compulsory military service after high school for every Indian.I think it would go a long way in reducing all that corruption that you talk about.

As for insignia we already have one -crossed swords with the ashok emblem,maybe we could add a couple of army boots just for effect :-D

Someone might have already mentioned this, but my enemy's enemy is my friend.

If i remember correctly, Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose actually went and met Hitler

Kela,

I see that you check your brain at the door of the next room when you sit down to type your trolling notes here. Now I'll have the pleasure of wiping the floor with your stupidity.

Let's start going over the points I raised, points obviously beyond your intelligence, in the light of a conscript army. For simplicity's sake, let's say that only males are conscripted at age 18 with women being allowed the option of not serving. That way you do not have tens of millions of worried aunties getting ulcers over the morality of the young women they have raised to be blushing virgins until wed.

Now let's drive home the chief difference between a conscript and volunteer army. IN a volunteer army, the volunteers SELF-SELECT. That means that the government has the option of concentrating its recruitment efforts among the classes it chooses to, reducing the issues of caste and nationality differences, along with language differences.

In a conscript army, you take all 18 year olds - period. You do not have a choice anymore. When an Indian male citizen is 18 he is inducted. This means that you must have an apparatus to trace all 17 year old males to contact them for testing before induction, so that you can eliminate the young men obviously unfit to serve and have some idea of where you want the available cohort that year to serve. In a country of over a billion people, with a lot of youngsters, that means dealing with millions of young men each year. This also means a bureaucracy to deal with these issues (until you can train a portion of the draftees to handle the problems).

You also have to deal with the fact that in addition to accepting all castes, you must communicate with all potential inductees in a language that they understand, as well as decide a language to train them in. That was the first question.

Then there is the issue of caste. Whether this is cultural or religious is of little importance. The main point is that caste separates groups of people and imposes differences. I do not know the castes of your society, but the issue caste raises is clear. Since caste is hereditary, there is the issue of whether an incompetent individual of high caste should give orders to a more competent individual of lower caste. Or whether a high caste person will take orders from a lower caste individual. These kinds of problems can be ameliorated in a volunteer army by the process of self-selection (volunteering) and by encouraging only certain castes to enlist. With a (big) bunch of draftees you no longer have this option.

But you have one hell of a headache getting the castes to cooperate.

Then there is the issue of education. Unless I am wrong, there are a large number of individuals in India who are illiterate, and to function in any modern army, you need to be able to read instructions, maps, etc.! So there arises the issue of how much education the Indian military is going to offer its illiterate draftees, what kinds of topics will be offered, and how far will the education be carried? This is in addition to the issue of which language(s) this education will be in? That was my next question.

We'll skip the unit for beating up unruly tourists, as obviously that is the main reason for you to propose a compulsory military force. An order from the IDF forbidding Israelis from travelling to your fine country would be a simple solution. That way your force of uniformed thugs to beat up nasty tourists will not hurt Israelis.

Now we'll move on to corruption. Nigeria's military is as corrupt as all hell. Whenever the army stages a coup in Nigeria, it loots the treasury. If your country is as terribly corrupt as it is, what makes you think that all the bad habits of Indian corruption will not seep into the military? You think that crossed swords with an ashok will guarantee honesty? Will pressing the uniform with starch keep the wearer as straight as the creases in his uniform? If you do think this, you are not only at a loss for brains, you are terribly naïve as well.

These are all issues that you need to deal with when contemplating a compulsory military. Just saying that your military is well respected doesn't do the trick, dude. And it certainly is not going to make a student of public administration back off an analysis.

[EDITED - PROVOCATIVE]

It's always a pleasure, Kela. Oh, by the way, the word kéla means jail in Hebrew...

See you around, dude.

whew you really need to get out of that shithole you live in and see the world...that comment was long and completely fallacious.For your info India has a national language and that's HINDI,that is the language used in the army besides english.As regards caste 'that is really no issue at all.The army is one big brotherhood irrespective of caste.I do agree there could be a logistical problem with the population but I am sure a country which can build nuclear weapons can find a way through that.Besides there are a lot of individuals who are really keen in joining the army and serving the nation .
Again I would like to stress the Indian army is the second largest in the world and you cant compare us to a country like Nigeria where there is no accountability and no system so to say
Man you are really ignorant and you don't know jack-shit about India so I would advice you to STFU

Kéla,

I see that you can't think your way around a 10 rupee coin. I know you have a national language, but just reading the posts here tells me that this national language is not everybody's language. If you have to take an illiterate kid into the armed forces, you have to teach him.

Right now, with a volunteer force, you can assert that caste is not a problem. That is because everybody in uniform signed up of his OWN ACCORD. If you want to communicate in the English language, you better learn how to read. Being conscripted means you don't have a choice. That means a lot of kids will be in the army because they have to be and do not want to be. At that point, all your social divisions come into play. And they are not positives. To overcome them, you need MOTIVATION.

Let's put it this way, Kéla. I know what the IDF has done in terms of education (a great deal), what it has done in terms of molding a society (a great deal). But all this has been accomplished because we all know that we are surrounded by a couple hundred million savage bastards that will tear us bone from bone (like they did to Kobi Mandell in a cave in Teqó'a a few years ago) if we cannot effectively defend ourselves. That, dimwit, is called MOTIVATION. Do you all have that kind of motivation? That is for you to think about. It is that kind of motivation that you will need to create an effective military out of millions of conscripts in India.

Oh, by the way, the next time you post anything about the Talmud, learn what you are posting. You made a total asshole of yourself and showed what a stupid bigot YOU are. You impressed me as a fuckin' fool then, and nothing you have written since has changed my mind.

See you later, dude. [EDITED - PROVOCATIVE]

Kela, how come no one told me that India's national language is Hindi? Because here in Madras, we always thought it was 13 different languages.

Dharma

What Madras? Isn't it called Chennai now?

rgds

dear bro ruvy

i guess kela is provocative.

assuming so, should you be provocated?

and see what you type, the same std as kela does.

and what is this need for machismo?

and what has bigotry (madness) got to do with corruption?is not bigotry corruption of the mind?

and what about jingoism?

and does it satisfy you if one says that the IDF is most macho of all the armies and the men in uniform are the most manly and rest are all incompetent and corrupt idiots?

and what ghetto kind of a world that you represent that you can't connect as to why the world hates the kind of 'jewish' representation that some part of israel offers?

i do know of and met decent jews from israel. and lovable at that.

and does your insulting other cultures and nations exonerate the jews and israelis?

yes india has a caste system. yes india has corruption. don't tell me that all is hunky dory with the politicians and army of israel. was some one drunk in foisting a case of rape by a senior politician in israel? or it happened in my dream?

arrogance, sir, in my humble view is the stuff of the weak.

for instance let us think that indian army stinks. so do the million kids who join it. so what? what's your problem? assume that indian soldiers cannot speak in one language with each other and commit harakiri? so what? how is it relevant to the current post or the discussion?

assume that talmud is the best religious script in the world. let us believe that judaism is the best religion in the world and rest all STINK. let us assume that all israelis are god's own gift to the world. despite of all the pictures and statistics and news. let us also believe that IDF men are blessed with the highest testesterone in the world. so what? what's your point sir?

i request you to check, in hating the nazi culture and ethos, in fighting it, are you representing a mirror image of the same intolerance? the same arrogance? the same power of military might? and losing sight of humanism?

like many things, this too shall pass. and fade into oblivion.

especially arrogance. in my humble view.

Ruvy there you again typing things you really have no idea about.When I talked about compulsory military service I said it would be performed after high school and almost every school in India has to teach Hindi and English.And no matter what the Dharma types say about India's national language ,many of his ilk even from the remotest villages who join the army pick up the language in no time.Most of India's regional languages are derived from Sanskrit.
And the Indian army is still one of the institutions that seem to be fairly free of all this corruption BS .Many top management institutes in India talk highly about Indian army's capabilities in developing top officers.Come any disaster from floods to terrorism the Indian army is at hand.If not compulsory at least measures could be taken to encourage more volunteering in the army because there are many who are keen.
As regards the Talmud that was something I found on the net.
Balaji is right,you're like in a shit pit throwing shit at others

There is NO point to this discussion any more. You two are just shouting at and insulting each other and not listening to a thing the other has to say. Take it offline.

This page is taking longer and longer to load up.

And the word is 'provoked', Balaji.

Anyhow, I agree with Ruvy that people need to actually go out and try to better themselves, rather than sulking in their room about the great caste conspiracy against them. It's called 'effort' people.

Well there were some good points buried in those hyperbole-laden shit-slinging attempts.

Neither person bothered to really read... only react.

It's pointless to continue this if all there will be is talking and no listening. Esp if all one is interested in is hearing the sound of his own voice.

i like the swatika design it is very interesting and intriging

Balaji,

Don't feel too bad by what I've written here. I just wanted to make sure that that brainless idiot with "jail" for a name understood that I can be at least as nasty as he is. I think I've accomplished the task.

And do not ever get the idea that I think Israel's present set of "leaders" are anything to write home about.

If anything, the majority of the Knesset deserves to be jailed, along with most of the High Court, at least the top corps of the IDF deserves jail as well, and a several Israeli leaders have covered themselves in enough treasonous activities to be hung. One of them has a name that translates into "vulture" in English, and has a character that matches his name.

I haven't even gotten to the corruption and shadows of incompetence that hang over the "crime" minister and most of his associates that you allude to. Do you have a few hours to read a rant?

Balaji,

Try to understand that I have no negative opinions about the Indian military. None whatever. It is a fine military that has done an admirable job in defending your country, losing only one war (against the Chinese) in a sixty year period. That is a fine record, and fortunately, the Chinese have not attempted to press the advantage they gained in the early sixties.

What I did was to point out the problems inherent in creating a unified force out of an army of conscripts - a topic I know something about - because the IDF had to do precisely that in the early fifties. The cultures here among Jews are at least as varied as those found in India.

As for the caste system, these are problems you have. In my comments, I was careful not to criticize your society about those problems, as I do not know enough to say anything intelligent beyond pointing up some of the problems you might have when trying to absorb a large number of conscripts who do not necessarily want to be in the army.

As for corruption in your country, I go on the word of Indian friends here in Israel who tell me that as corrupt as the government is here, the government in India is far worse. Eventually, the corruption that plagues a civilian government will plague the military (even if this is not true now), and this is especially true if you decide to adopt conscription. Your soldiers will no longer be a self-selecting elite as they are now, they will mirror your country - as the Israeli military mirrors Israel.

Finally, as for taking Kela to task for what he posted about the Talmud, he had it coming. One could easily pick quotes from Hindu or Buddhist sages in such a way as to paint Hindus or Buddhists as arrogant murderous pigs, and that is exactly what Kela's "internet" link did.

I have not attacked your faith at all; I respect its wisdom. And I am careful to distinguish between those Moslems who are indeed lovers of peace, and those who only love death.

Note that to you I need not be nasty. But I do wish to be clear...

Let that bring a civil end to it all.

appreciate it ruvy.

sanjay

i appreciate your recommendation of doing something out there.

i guess the dalits are doing their bit. seeking their rightful pound of flesh. fighting against the casteist bigotry.

they are trying to enter temples that were inaccessible to them in the hindu fold. they are asserting for their rights.

yes some of the dalits who belong to the creamy layer are fighting the indignities that are accepted by the lay dalit as 'given' or 'karma'.

yes thanks for recognizing that rights are not won in drawing rooms. thoughts start there. action is on the ground.

you can see it in UP. congress has no clue. BJP has nothing to fall back except the temple and creating hatred against muslims with cheap CDs. the SP is finding it is not easy to push the dalits to the extreme.

very very interestingly, mayavati, is working with the brahmins to capture political power. interesting times aren't they?

no longer to be left in shadows and false promises they seem to be better organized and finding their voice.

all, inspite of the cow urine spraying madness. and the billion indignities.

yes they are making the effort my friend. and probably they would find their voice to be heard in portals like this. soon. if not yet.

already the distance in so called performance in tests is narrowing. check out the obc's performance. another two decades the rubbish that is dished out will come to roost.

so will the dalits.

like you rightly alluded, let the reality speak. fantasies apart.

Good points Balaji.

It's a fact on the whole darker skinned indians are intelectualy inferior the lighter skinned ones hitler's master race was the right way to go aand he creamated the roma species ...aka gypsies a clan for india who are nothing more then ttamps and theives such is how the western societ look as indians as well

See! look what happens when we all speak reasonably and listen.

Thanks Ruvy and Balaji...

And shoe... hey, we already have a resident shit-slinger. you have to wait in line, sorry. do it quietly.

Hi SS,

please see this old post in an admirable blog:

http://sujaiblog.blogspot.com/2006/09/adolf-hitler-and-indians.html

You will understand what is the common perception of Hitler in India.

regards

I took a look at the blog in comment #233 and found it very instructive and educational - both in the article itself and in the commentary that followed...

Thanks!

smallsquirrel, Firstly I did not have the objective to trigger a nasty, hurling of racial taunts and remarks in this blog. So my comments to you no way should be construed as an Indian Vs Westerner match!!! Its only I have a good indepth insight into history, politics and cultural studies ....so its hard for me to accept cheerful simplistic statements. History is not so easy as you make it sound, unheard voices of East, there is indeed a clear moral high-standing of West in our textbooks. I want you to appreciate this aspect of skewed history...

I think you should be more imaginative, dont repeat that I missed the point since you really did not make a cogent point about the meaning of symbols in contextual frame. I have never never said its great to flaunt swastika but I hope one last time I can clarify that it has to be interpreted in a socio-political cultural and historical context. Normative judgements of symbols like swastika is very important and deserve very serious attention, hope you see my point that Iam pretty concerned about this symbol. I think if you read me carefully will see that I had mentioned its distasteful and disgusting.

But I have had interactions with unemployed German students(who else in Bangalore) who go over the top at spotting a swastika and then dilute the strong prevalent racist discourse of European society. Hope this resolves this chapter of debate over swastika, a symbol originating out of India and then being preverted elsewhere in the world by demotic leaders.

Well over to you, Kela and I must apprecaite your intense anger and frustration at the rampage of foreigners in our tourist spots. I also feel its time that we do feel enraged at these westerners landing here in hordes and misbehaving. However the answer lies not in violent strikes since we will unleash forces that will go beyond our control. So the solution lies in law-and-order enforcement, why should an Israeli soldier be pardoned for infringement of civic decency? It really doesn't matter that its Israeli or an Indian or European brat, law should punish him. Junkies of all skin colour needs to be firmly dealt with, and just retort everytime they like to act superior. Kela tragically we are becoming the magnet of unemployed useless white europeans here and I dont have the solution. I once joked that the backbenchers in Europe come to India to become scholars!!! If you cant find a damn job study Indian studies and come and TEACH here. We make these junkie heroes, please understand that their social backgrounds are highly depraved and being racist makes them feel better or feeling superior to Indians. Lets become more discerning and ask how many elite university graduates, elite school students are here and put the charlies in their place. Iam shocked that probably even in British Raj days we did not have so many innercity school graduates trying to teach us, atleast then we had Eton and Harrow pompous arrogant kids...now pathetic urban squalor!! Iam highly fond of Western societies and think we can build partnerships but lets not be so liberal that we garland every Johhnie!!! When immigration world-wide insists that only high-skilled immigrants are welcome than why cant India insist on letting the 'chosen' people in...

So Kela be optimistic and dont feel aggressive since the tide of history is in our favour....have a few tough leaders who will not spare the tourists and tehnw e dont need to fight!!!
JAI HIND!!!
My apologies to my sweet cute 'hurt' westerners by my invocation of Indian nation!!!

You know Ron, who made "cheerful, simplistic statements". Can't be me. I am not cheerful, and I am glad you think you are more educated and informed than me. I think you believe all westerners are candy-cheeked, trapped in a bubble, just-born yesterday types. I do not need you to MAKE me understand history. Just because I do not go into long-winded defense of my thoughts doesn't make me stupid.

I do not disagree with your points about the swastika, I don't like your demeaning, patronizing tone toward me because I am white. (see your last line... that is just a shitty low-blow, thanks)

And why in hell would I be hurt by a strong Indian nation. I live here for God's sake.

smallsquirrel, its pretty sad that this exchange has gone awry, and I would be very sad if I came across as an arrogant 'tweet' who is patronizing and feels that knows more than you!1 My first agenda is to restore some amount of good spirit here...incidentally this cheerful simplistic was not really targeted at you!!! But a lot of my writing is very sharp-edged theatrical and is not meant to be vicious. I do not entertain any prejudice against white race and quite the contrary I have excellent relationships of sharing thoughts and exchanging views. Its also deplorable if you living in India do face racism and discrimination since you have done us no harm!!!
My sore point is the 'thrusted' overbearing history as written by West and please dont take up cudgels on behalf of the Western educated elite, my criticism is sharp and vitriolic but is rational when seen in the context of propagandist machinations of Western institutions, By The Way I do not assign respect based on education and credentials..quite the contrary ...I wish to awaken conscious human beings like you about the horrid writing of history by the best and brightest of Elite Western institutions, which does not evoke respect in me. So if I engage in a tough-talk with you its more on the grounds of being conscious and aware about the games of power instruments of history. Here I do sound contradictory here, well my most annoying and tragic feeling is how ordinary western people do not seek out to join hands with Indians, Africans and the rest...but cheer for their leaders who even deny them prosperity, as you know how corporates had no qualms about firing their workers in the Western world. We need global solidarity to unravel writings based on power and refresh a more equitable discourse. Again I LOVE AND ADMIRE THE WESTERN INTELLECTUALS ELITE SCHOOLS but it requires to lead a new direction of speaking to the 'others' revisit history and carry out the propaganda with the same force, but this time one of compassion. Tell me am I too off the mark, you know post-modernist philosophers went to the extent of denyign truths and accepted that irrationality is the weapon of the weak, oppressed people. I did not want to make you understand history but please be aware if you choose to be that a lot of uglier aspects of our society are projected; the morbid life of immigrants in quaint chic Paris is glossed over, and then we have the spectacle of riots in 2005. Our caste-system failings are good staple for the media and this is exactly my point. We will have to extend the conceptual framework beyond local vignettes of Bangalore. I hope you will admit that Western establishment has far far far more power to subvert history and write its won story than India!!! I would be complimented if you think contrarily...but Iam afraid thats not the truth!!!

Yes my last line was tinged and loaded with acerbic sarcasm and make no bones about it!! Firstly its not targeted at you but the chorus of many westerners who like us to dump missiles while proliferating theirs, open our doors and close theirs, as a student of International Relations I learnt a statement long ago, which reverberates in my mind:
DONT DO AS WE DO BUT AS WE TELL YOU TO DO....
Hope I have calmed the situation and assuage your feelings of upset since thats not my intention. Just sometime read the book 'Colonialism and Neocolonialism' by Sartre and he is not Indian but a very French intellectual to be stirred by the global historical injustices Iam feeling peeved about. In a televised discussion one interviewer(from South Asia) posed a question to the ones in West: YOU ARE SO ANGRY WHY DONT YOU EVER UNDERSTAND OUR ANGER???

Ron... see, OK, that took a while to read. And thank you for your long response. But I think what I object to is what I said before. That you feel most westerners need to be educated. It is a gross generalization. I also do not believe in the supremacy of a paper diploma. There are a lot of ways to learn, and experience is by far the best teacher. But you do not know me. My history, my education (not just in classrooms), or what I do and do not support. My feelings on any one subject do not and should not pidgeon-hole me as anything.

You, and others, make a lot of stereotypes about westerners based on popular beliefs propagated about us in the media. and it's just as offensive as if we thought all Indians were uneducated, uncultured and wearing loincloths, riding an elephant.

barely any of us support Bush's bullshit, and we certainly are not so blind that we do not understand that what is taught in history textbooks is only one narrow and tainted view of the world. why must you think I need someone else to show me that. i knew it at an early age, my parents told me, and my teachers in school echoed the same sentiments.

I may not know everything. But I have taken 2+ years of sanskrit, studied dravidian languages intensively, learned some classical Indian dance as a child.. and more...... and this is just my rudimentary knowledge of Indian cultures. I have a long way to go, like any human being. But I take exception to the implication that I am somehow uneducated outside the narrow scope of what some milk-pap textbook says. I am married to an Indian, and I live here. What do you know of Western cultures? What can you tell me about Jewish culture or Italian culture without using Google?

I do not mean this as an indictment, I mean that it is easy to think the other person knows nothing in this venue. You have no idea what the other person knows. Hey, for all I know you know everything about (insert culture here) and not from a textbook. What I am trying to tell you is that you need to re-examine your underlying belief that you are very knowledgeable about something and the other is not.

and oops, I forgot.

I *do* understand your anger. there is a lot to be rightfully pissed off about. we're probably angry about the same things. but hey, direct it in the right direction man. dont make every white person the poster-child and target of your anger. we feel just as hijacked by our government's actions as you do. the sooner people understand that, the better!!!

Ruvy,if the only thing your country can contribute are drug-crazed raving lunatics who think of India as nothing more than a dumping place then surely you all are not welcome here.
Sanjay ,maybe you could ask Ruvy to drop his pants so you could kiss his ass better.It's quite sad and amazing that Ruvy has the gall of threatening the second largest army in the world with a rag-tag bunch of junkies. It's sad because they might just pull it off ,seeing the way most commenters here love to suck up to Israeli ass.As per a report in the Outlook magazine,even the cops in Manali are scared to register cases against the Israelis because they come in groups to the police station and beat them up.Well, what do you expect from a country that begged for its freedom rather than fight for it?
We need more people like Chandra and Ron :-D,thats why i recommend compulsory military service.

[EDITED]

kela.. until one of the editors can get here to edit that ridiculousness.. cut it the f*** out. don't pull that crap on my thread. you wanna argue, fine. You wanna disagree, great. but cut it out with the personal attacks. NOW.

SS: Ruvy brought up the "blushing Indian virgins" comment and besides its a fact that Israelis Inbreed.

Ruvy,if the only thing your country can contribute are drug-crazed raving lunatics who think of India as nothing more than a dumping place then surely you all are not welcome here.

Still chewin' on that bone, are we? You'll break your teeth on it, Kela. I have one last thing to say to you.

Once your are done frothing at the mouth like a rabid dog, re-read this and get it through your stupid head.

It is a far better thing that our kids visit the Pakhtun community in India, and learn who their relatives are, and attempt to forge real ties of friendship with other Children of Israel, than get high in dunghills in Goa or die in bad drug deals in Manali.

I already have an invite to visit your country. And I do not do dope, and have trained my children to have something you lack - MANNERS AND CIVILITY.

Ruvy,well something you obviously lack is brains;the Pakthuns ,your so called brothers live across the border from India in PAKISTAN ,ruled by the army sergeant who calls himself President

SS you are over-reacting to my arguements and I repeat honestly I DO NOT HAVE ANY MALICIOUS INTENT TOWARDS YOU!! I can explore historical deficiencies without implying that I need to make you aware about history. I joined this debate in healthy spirit. This is supposed to be a forum for intellectual discourse and we all have right to be terse, assertive but not offensive. Even if I knew who you are I would have written the same text since its my own interpretation, and admit maybe wrong and wish to be challenged in a non-emotional way. It really does not make a difference how accomplished you are, since intellectual discussions should be neutral from all such persoanl judgements, the only guiding force should be to exchange, discuss and experiment new ideas and thoughts. BTW I would be honest to admit I dont know much about Jewish culture and very touristy version of Italian culture from my holidays. I will not do a search to say things I dont know about!!!
So lets strive towards making this wonderful blog and very good topic you have written about, at atime when the world is talking about clash of civilizations, its all the more imperative to candidly discuss these issues. I think the dialogue between some of the members is getting too hot and provocative!!!! It just tells me how deep and string the passions are running.
Anyway I will be keen to participate in future debates.Thanks for your engagin responses, obviously you have difficult experiences with some of the prevalent thoughts in Indian society towards West. This is why we need a new way of looking at history and culture, new frameworks.

Ron... thanks again for your comments and thoughts. I do appreciate that you are trying very hard to have a dialog, which is much much more than I can give to credit to many others for. So as I said, I did not disagree with much of your message, just parts of the delivery. But you are in no way obligated to cater to me, so there you have it :) anyway good to have someone here using their powers for good and not evil. hooray for dialog (vs. diatribe)

Well if it is any consolation to your Hyper-excitement, I have a distant brother who thinks Hitler as a great leader, although he didn't have the right intent.

It does not surprise me to see some indians relate to hitler and his ideals. Given the comfortable circumstances Shivsena and bajrang dal would easily excel Hitlers deeds although not against Jews.

kela is a [deleted] who thinks dalits r the only group that gets discriminated the truth is it is reverse...........discrimination is reverse just look at reservations all the rich dalits get reservations for free.......the thing is poor should be given a preference......not caste's

discrimination, this country belongs to the dalits,you're stole their lands and status

this country belongs to dalit WOW........yeah right...........no way this country belongs to us all even the high castes if u thing we(high-castes,Anglo-Indians) dont belong in India then ur wrong........infact to tell u the truth SC(schedule catse's)and ST(SCHEDULE TRIBES)infact of getting all the benefits are the most racist people i've met calling me names i dont care but i tell the truth and by the way lot of schedule caste people are my friends

Todd Cowle Municipal Bond Credit Report synthesizes, analyzes and presents aggregate credit information and trends in the municipal bond market. The report includes municipal bond rating information from the three major rating agencies â€" Moody’s Investor Services, Standard and Poor’s and Fitch Ratings.