OPINION

Religion & Violence: Islam, Christianity, Hinduism

April 05, 2007
Dileep Yogi

As reported by The Washington Post a widow from the 2004 Madrid Train Bombing wore an infamous Danish anti Prophet cartoon t-shirt to court where out of the 29 suspects on trail most were Muslims.

While there maybe non-Muslims who would praised her courageous efforts yet there will also be the cynical ones who would indulge in arm chair punditry by trying to analyze her psyche for her token defiance in front of the Muslim suspects and the indoctrinated Muslim community would once again rehash old wounds inflicted by some silly cartoons instead of empathizing with the anguish suffered by the Madrid Bombing widow and others like her.

The majority of the Muslim world which claims to be against terrorism are of the opinion that neither Islam, nor its founder nor its scriptures can be blamed for the source of inspiration for the Muslim terrorists and they insist the terrorists legitimate their cause by misinterpreting certain verses from The Holy Koran and select quotes of the Prophet Muhammad and they do not endorse their jihadi zeal for Islamic world domination.

Violence and terror in the name of religion have shaken the world throughout history. Christianity has a terrible past of crusades and religious wars, forcible conversions in Africa and Latin America and inquisitions in Europe and in Goa; Hinduism is infamous for its violence against the Dalits and the untouchables.

Crusades and Inquisitions called on by Christian pontiffs and led by European rulers has been a black mark on Christianity as well as on the entire humanity, as no inquisitor or crusader could quote the holy Bible or quote Jesus Christ as a justification for their malicious acts, for they conducted inquisitions and waged crusades not for heavenly, divine and eternal rewards, but for political, military and imperial purposes.

The Christian crusaders and persecutors never practiced the peaceful and merciful aspects of Christianity as revealed by Christ, but the fundamentalist and exclusive nature of the Christian religion which is deep rooted in its Abrahamic base. That this was the inspiration and the motivation for the crusaders and the inquisitors is an irrefutable and indubitable fact.

Scriptures and the messages of the founder and his apostles may not have been much of a contributory factor to the Christian dark ages, but still the Pauline justification of slavery in the epistles was used in enslaving hundreds of thousands of dark skinned people from the dark continent of Africa to be transported to the new continent of America.

It also forced the indigenous population of the new world to transplant themselves from their own land to the unexplored regions crossing the Rocky mountains and the mighty rivers, a chapter of history condemned by the current United States president as "one of the largest migrations of history was also one of the greatest crimes of history".

Might the Christian brutality and immorality of the past been admitted by the western thinkers, philosophers and leaders of our ages, might the former head of state of Vatican have pleaded "mea culpa" "and mea maxima culpa" before the crucifix for all the worst Christianity performed for the last two millennia?

President Bush was right in referring to the trans-Atlantic exploration and settlement by the Europeans and the sufferings and misery that it brought it to the natives on both sides of the Atlantic as "one of the greatest crimes of history", but besides being aware, Humanity is yet to admit that the greatest ever crime of history was indeed the greatest civilization established by the mankind as well, namely the Indian or the Hindu civilization.

Chaturvarnya by effect was more horrible and malevolent than any other system based on human degradation and inequality, where hundreds of millions of humans lived lives far worse than that of animals just because of their conceptually inferior birth. They had no scope of claiming dignity as humans, had no hope of the betterment of present, had no rights to dream of a bright future.

Blaming their births excused their miserable fates and that of their future generations. Only through death could they escape the terrible sufferings or by submitting themselves to the servitude of those who were born conceptually superior and hoping that by doing so they would escape the sufferings in the next rebirth. It is a concept of extreme humiliation and self-enslavement, as reveled in and glorified by the holy scriptures and the divine figures of the Hindu religion.

Scriptures were only a justification for the violence committed against the dalits and the untouchables . The upper castes oppressed them not for heavenly and divine reasons but for social factors. The inclusive nature and the un-dogmatic foundation of Hinduism was such that the verses of the divine scriptures and the messages of the divine figures could be revisited, re-interpreted and even renounced.

Because of this, Hinduism has been able to reform itself and no contemporary leader of the Hindu society, deriving their claim of brahmanical superiority from the divine verses of the Vedas and the Vedanta calls for violence against those who were socially challenged for centuries. The fact that the scriptures fostered aggression against these socially challenged sections for centuries has been accepted by every one and condemned by all those who believe in the equality of all men and women.

Scriptures and their messages as inspiration for violence can never be ignored or white washed as just their misinterpretations by some of the adherents. All peace loving people have to accept that these heavenly inspired scriptures (as claimed by their followers) were not in fact heavenly inspired, but written by mortals and have to be understood in the context of the social, cultural and political milieu during which they were composed. From that perspective any impartial observation would be that scriptures have been a source of violence.

Had misinterpretation of select verses been inspiration for terrorism and the killing of innocents in the name of religious duty, Hinduism would have generated the greatest number of terrorists for the fact that Arjuna was advised many times by Bhagwan in the Gita to fight and kill all those who were on the other side of the great Indian battle; even if those who were on the other side were his gurus and acharyas and those who were equivalent to his fathers - figures that Indian culture and society insist each and every individual respect as gods.

Parthasarathy was very clear in advising Partha that he would win the kingdom and enjoy the privileges of a king if he won the war. He would win heaven and the world would appreciate his glory and courage if he was killed in the war as it was his duty to fight for the kingdom such was the advice given by the incarnation of the second person of the Hindu trinity but has never been a source of motivation for the hypothetical Hindu terrorists in waging religious wars and terrorizing innocents for territorial expansion, take over of the world or for heavenly objectives.

This reminds us of the equivalent verses of the holy Koran and the messages of Prophet Muhammad and the way these verses and messages have been the source of inspiration for the Islamic terrorists.

The verses of the scriptures of the greatest philosophy, the Bhagvat Gita that humanity has ever produced could never be the source of ignition for the Hindu religious terror as they could never be taken in a violent sense and as these verses were advised to Arjuna and to the adherents of the history's oldest religion in terms of dharma and karma, not for political or military motivation.

The verses from Gita instead are till date seen as motivating influences to bring peace and prosperity to humanity where every one is reminded of his duty, submitting oneself to the peaceful fight for the well being of the world and thus as a means to bring oneself out of the ocean of earthly berths and deaths by attaining moksha which ultimately means to be part of the eternal Brahma alone.

This can not be claimed as per the scriptures of the holy Koran and the messages of the Prophet Muhammad, taking into consideration the political, military and social context of the evolution of the Islamic religion in which these scriptures were composed.

As has been admitted by the reformers of the Hindu religion, the verses of the Hindu scriptures and the messages of the divine figures of Hinduism were the cause of the dyslogistic conditions of lower castes for generations and the inspiration for their oppression.

It is an incontestable and established fact that the scriptures and the messages of the founder of Islam have persuaded the Islamic terrorists for objectives that may vary, either for the cause of the Ummah or for the take over of the world or even just for the pleasure of seventy two virgins in heaven.

If Christianity could finally turn out as a religion of peace from a religion of dark ages and as Hindus are gradually evolving as a society of egalitarian values, Islam too can eliminate the elements of terror from its belief system. But for this, Islamic Lutherans are the need of the hour, confessing the irrelevance of the verses of the Koran and the messages of its founder that encourage violence, reforming Islam from being a medieval religion to a modern religion and embracing the concept of the peaceful coexistence of different faiths, cultures and civilizations.

The proclamation of Islam as the ultimate and perfect message of the almighty to humanity for its salvation and as the sole solution to all its problems and the outlook of Islam as a political, social and military doctrine than a religion pose more grave challenges to the Islamic reformation than those faced by their Christian and Hindu counterparts.

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Religion & Violence: Islam, Christianity, Hinduism

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Author: Dileep Yogi

 

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#1
Sujai
URL
April 5, 2007
03:17 AM

Hi Dileep:
I welcome your attempt to describe the present day religious attitudes towards violence using the scriptures of those religions - dependency or the lack of.

However, I am not sure on what basis you can say that -
"As Christianity could finally turn out as a religion of peace from a religion of dark ages"

and that "as Hindus are gradually evolving as a society of egalitarian values".

May be, we see the world differently. Most major wars of the twentieth century were waged by Christian countries. The number of people killed by countries of Christianity is more than 100 times the number of people killed by the countries or people of Islam (in the last century). Holocaust, the biggest crime of the humanity, was condoned and fueled by Christianity.

Hindus are still clearly stratified along casteist lines, both economically and socially.

I agree with you when you say-
"Islam too can eliminate the elements of terror from its belief system."

History shows that Islam could and was able to do this when things were better for their identities. So, it is very much a part of Islam the ability to eliminate elements of terror from their belief systems.

It is up to Islamic countries to find those safe havens of their identities once again, and also it is upon the rest of the world to secure that for Islam.

#2
Somik Raha
URL
April 5, 2007
03:35 AM

I understand your sentiment in this essay but not your argument.

You write:
It is a concept of extreme humiliation and self-enslavement, as reveled in and glorified by the holy scriptures and the divine figures of the Hindu religion.

Which scriptures are you referring to? Since you've referred to the Vedanta, which we understand to be the Upanishads, can you tell me where you see any glorification of extreme humiliation of any caste?

One of the biggest misfortunes in India is the lack of access to the scriptures due to our disconnection with Sanskrit. But then, Swami Vivekananda's writings are in English and accessible to all - even a cursory read should dispel myths. In fact, Swamiji thundered that no one can exploit our lower castes with false references to the scriptures if all have knowledge of Sanskrit, for nowhere is it supported in the Upanishads. He suggested that instead of pulling down all people, everyone should be made Brahmin - by which he signified, adherents to truth, integrity and courage under all circumstances.

The Bhagvad Gita has this sloka,
"Vidya vinaya sampanne
Brahmane gavi hastini
Shuni chaiva svapake cha
Panditah Sama darshinah"

"A scholar endowed with great learning and humility, a cow, an elephant, a dog and an outcaste - they are all the same to one who truly knows."

While Krishna recognizes that people see each other differently, he clearly says the admirable thing to strive for is to see the ultimate oneness in all where external distinctions dont matter.

We do find crazy stuff and good stuff in the scriptures like the Manu Smriti - but it has to be understood that Smritis are social texts, not religious ones. In this case, they are to be treated as one would treat a constitution. They provide social systems that some people thought of as useful given their context but which we cannot justify from our current sensibilities.

You mentioned reformers without citing any names. Let me name some who were very successful. Rabindranath Tagore used his powerful literature to rouse a people against the inequities of the caste system (through plays like Chandalika and novels like Gora) and his entire philosophy was based on the Upanishads. Swami Vivekananda has perhaps not been equalled in an English representation of Hinduism and he spoke out vehemently against the ills of society. His entire foundation was the Hindu religion as captured by the Upanishads and what we call the Vedanta. Mahatma Gandhi stands out as another example - and Gandhiji's entire philosophy was again based on the Upanishads, and in particular on the Gita.

Gandhiji, like all the others, challenged anyone claiming scriptural knowledge and believing in inequities of castes, because he had read the scriptures and knew there was no basis.

In ancient times, Kabir challenged the orthodoxy and again through his knowledge of the philosophy of the Upanishads.

The problem is not in the Hindu religious scriptures (Upanishads). The problem is that most people don't know what's in them.

#3
Somik Raha
URL
April 5, 2007
03:49 AM

On Islam, it is convenient to quote the lines on jihad ad nauseum. But the common Muslim cares too hoots for that. They believe in truth-telling, being good to their neighbor and that the real jihad is to be fought within. They look at the terrorists with contempt and dont have time to waste apologizing for people who do stupid things. The same way as I would never apologize for the stupid things that are done in the name of Hinduism. No one took my permission to do it.

The issue with most Mulsim countries is that their governments have been terribly corrupt giving very little freedom. Look at Turkey and you will see a peaceful Islamic state though I am sure they have their share of problems like India.

I heard this argument recently and thought it was rather amazing that I hadn't come across it earlier. The invaders whom we call Islamic invaders had actually invaded Iraq and committed severe atrocities before going east. They picked up Islam along the way (the Mongols) but didnt give up their barbaric invasion policy and used Islam to support it. If this argument holds true, then it wouldn't have mattered which religion they picked up.

#4
Chuck
April 5, 2007
08:25 AM

How does finding fault with other religions in anyway lessen the responsibility for one's own. This is a very poor argument.

The contrast between the founders of islam and Christianity are diametrical: A war lord vs a Lamb for the slaughter.

#5
Anamika
April 5, 2007
08:38 AM

Bravo, Somik! Thanks for stating precisely what I keep repeating in conversations with friends ad nauseum, Manusmriti and other smritis are NOT religious texts but social ones. And that far too many of the references to Hindu texts regarding caste discrimination are results of colonial (mis)translations, editing and (mis)-interpretation of Sanskrit texts, and not based in real knowledge of these. Even today the West claims (for Max Meuller, the acolyte and protege of great Lord Macauley) the achievement of having "edited" the Vedas without any notion of the mangling this process caused to the texts.

Its like having a protege of Osama bin Laden "edit" the Christian Bible in a translation to Arabic and claiming it as the "truth" about the Christian texts and tradition!

Btw, the lack of knowledge extends also to the "Brahmins" who go on (went on) about pollution or caste, and about "preserving" the traditions. Most of the lot were and are barely literate in the texts (similar to the many mullahs who run about teaching Islam) and have no real knowledge of the classical religious texts beyond their personal biases and rudimentary information.

#6
kela
April 5, 2007
09:17 AM

and we have [EDITED] cyber terrorists like [EDITED],a new breed of anti-socials inciting racial and communal hatred through the internet.

#7
Vij
April 5, 2007
12:13 PM

@Sujai (Most major wars of the twentieth century were waged by Christian countries. The number of people killed by countries of Christianity is more than 100 times the number of people killed by the countries or people of Islam)

Those wars waged by christian countries were NOT in the name of religion. For example, US and Russia fought with each other. But they were both christian countries. But take example of war between palestine and israel.. that war is purely in the name of the religion.
In this current age, people are beiing killed in the name of only one religion (islam) and they need to introspect.

#8
tigron
April 5, 2007
02:04 PM

Jihad was the first to use violence by attacking Europe and capturing Spain, parts of France, Poland, Hungary, Romania etc as well as Jerusalem in 8-12th century. Crusades were defensive and were to liberate Jerusalem from Jihad forces.

And what about slaughter by the Mongol hordes from 12-16th century - 50-100 million estimated killed. Communists genocide in Russia and China - 50 million killed ?

#9
kela
April 5, 2007
02:14 PM

chandra my comment was directed at you heh heh :)

#10
Chandra
April 5, 2007
02:45 PM

Kela

No more comments against you from today. Its getting boring. Also, for a change, need to do some work.

bye

#11
Love
URL
April 5, 2007
02:47 PM

It is written in "ONE OF GOD'S VESSELS, COLLECTION SERIES,II, PAGE 2
'God says we are His Children, We are one family. So, why do we separate from each other? Is it that we don't believe? Yes, we are all different colors; Yes, none of us look the same; Yes, we divide and separate in nationalities and races; Oh, what a silly game. Stop thinking you are different. God says we are all the same. He loves all of us dearly; He wants us to do the same. Be good to one another. Be kind and be true. God is our Heavenly Father; He is there for me and you.'
There is only one God.

#12
AnArch
April 5, 2007
02:51 PM

Didn't you get the memo, Love, not everyone is under the God delusion

#13
Hari
April 5, 2007
02:54 PM

Violence is an inherent attribute of living organisms, very closely linked to survival. The entire animal world lives 'by the sword' and 'dies by the sword'.

We, as humans are evolving. So, we have learnt to condemn violence, but at the lower, reptilian brain level, we still carry the chemically transmitted violent traits of our ancestors, who needed them to survive in challenging environments of their times.

This inherent violence manifests itself even today, whenever the law and order situation breaks down. We still kill in war, we kill for revenge, we kill for money, and we kill to punish.

Religion is not a well-defined term. In parts it refers to your faith in God, in parts to social behaviour, in parts to one's own value system, in parts to social value system, and to many other things.

It is closer to emotions than logical thought process. It also provides a binding force for communities. People are ready to die for it and to kill for it, almost in the same way that predators do it for food.

Religion is a mechanism or safety valve, that allows us our non-logical responses without the guilt factor.

Violence is good when defending pieces of land called 'national territory'-- each country, however civilised honours its soldiers -- but I cannot shoot dead a person who is running away with my monthly salary, or has encroached upon my plot of land.

That is, personal violence is out, but collective violence is still in.

Even today, a religion can survive if and only if its practioners can ensure their survival. And that, will require violence.



#14
Somik Raha
URL
April 5, 2007
05:52 PM

Hari wrote:
Even today, a religion can survive if and only if its practioners can ensure their survival. And that, will require violence.

This statement needs a lot of caveats. I like to distinguish between self-defence and offence. Yes, as a society, everyone has a right to self-defence but not to offence. Collective violence is in - yes. But should it be in - I think not.

You are using a descriptive approach - what is so. But should it be that way? Is there a way to escape? I think so. There have been people in India who'd rather give up their body than harm another. Their courage and strength has been respected. The saffron garb is for those who've revolted against society's mores and decided to define their own reality. In other societies, rebels are tracked and eliminated. In our society, we honor such rebels, whether or not they reach their goal, for something about their courage strikes a chord.

The "religion is a safety-value" argument is passe. When sociology and anthropology was developing, people tried to use it to explain away religion. Now, very few intellectuals would continue to be so naive.

I think your post is very thought-provoking in that what you say is true, IMHO. It is the existentialist view. This is the way the world IS - full of contradiction. Where ancient Indian philosophers made their contribution to the world is, they said, yes - you are right that our existence is screwed up, but there is a reality beyond that is not affected by our present condition. There is a way to escape our contradictions (which they termed maya). And religion was the practical way in which different people sought to escape the contradiction.

#15
Bakhtiar
URL
April 5, 2007
09:23 PM

@Tigron: Jihad was the first to use violence by attacking Europe and capturing Spain, parts of France, Poland, Hungary, Romania etc as well as Jerusalem in 8-12th century. Crusades were defensive and were to liberate Jerusalem from Jihad forces.
A very good example how Jihad is misunderstood by people.

#16
tigron
April 6, 2007
12:41 AM

Bakhtiar: who FIRST started the attack - Christians or Muslims ? Naturally Muslim Moors by crossing over into Spain and France from North Africa !

#17
Diganta
URL
April 6, 2007
03:08 AM

I completely agree to the points raised by the author. I would like to take the side of the author and refute the comments made against.

Most major wars of the twentieth century were waged by Christian countries. - this does not prove that these violence are related to Christianity. For example, the violence against Jews by Hitler was not due to christian-Jewish rift, but due to his right-wing view that Germans are the best race of the world and Jews are external people.

The problem is not in the Hindu religious scriptures (Upanishads). The problem is that most people don't know what's in them. - Why is it required to know? You might find some good and some bad in it. And you will cherry-pick the best ones to defend that it's a good book. However, the reasoning you use to cherry-pick is already available inside you. Why do you need to read it as a part of 'infallible truth'? Read it as a historical archive.

#18
tigron
April 6, 2007
03:45 AM

"Most major wars of the twentieth century were waged by Christian countries. - this does not prove that these violence are related to Christianity. For example, the violence against Jews by Hitler was not due to christian-Jewish rift, but due to his right-wing view that Germans are the best race of the world and Jews are external people."

they are political wars and not religious and furthermore they were attacking each other....germany, italy against america & u.k.

anyway most of the wars in history were cause by huns, jihad, mongols, persians etc.....not by christian countries who have just appeared on the international scene in the past 100 years.

#19
tigron
April 6, 2007
03:48 AM

anyway u should be grateful to christian british for chasing the moghul emperor to rangoon and knocking out the pwoer of the jihad, else the whole india would have been converted to islam....he he !

#20
Somik Raha
URL
April 6, 2007
04:19 AM

Diganta writes:
However, the reasoning you use to cherry-pick is already available inside you. Why do you need to read it as a part of 'infallible truth'? Read it as a historical archive.

If the reasoning is already available within, then what is the need to read it? I agree with you, nothing should be taken an an infallible truth. You suggest reading it as a historical archive. The problem is, most people haven't read it, dont bother to, but have pretty strong opinions on why the material may need reform. There is no problem with such views provided they are informed and they cite troublesome passages so discussion can start to happen. In fact, such an activity would actually be quite welcome.

#21
Chandra
April 6, 2007
04:24 AM

Tigron

It took 900 yrs for 25% of the population to be muslim. I doubt very much that the rest of the population would have been converted.......


As far as the British are concerned. Indeed, we are quite grateful to them

- India's GDP under the britts reduced from a 25% global contribution to 1%

- India's personal incomes contracted 0.5% for most of the years between 1900 and 1947

- We had most of our famines during the Raj,thanks to extensive food security

Net, net.....Good job done....

rgds

#22
Dipendra
April 6, 2007
04:33 AM

Diganta:

I challenge you when you said that the holocaust directed at the Jews had little do with Christianity but everything to do with the right wing ideology of Hitler!

Christianity in Europe had created an environment where Jews were hated, despised and subject to assault.

The Jews were subjected to the inquisition in Spain and Portugal. They were burnt on the stake. They were subject to pogroms in East and Central Europe. They were confined to ghettos in the papal states of medieval Europe. They were not permitted to buy land. They focused on finance which explains in part their entrepreneurial success.

Succeeding popes had uttered the most vehement of anti-Jewish statements blaming them for the cruxifiction of Jesus. Shakespeare's Shylock is an eye-opener on then prevailing attitudes towards Judaism.

I think Christianity does share blame that it created the environment where the holocaust took place.

The Roman Catholic church entered into concordats with fascist right wing regime of Mussolini. It entered into a concordat with Hitler in 1933. It supported Francisco Franco - a key ally of Hilter - as he battled the Republicans in the Spanish civil war. The church retained links with Hitler's regime without excommunicating him or challenging him. It refused to overtly condemn the Nazi ideology until after its defeat. In fact several German bishops encouraged prayers of support for the Fuhrer!

In fact, Hitler commended what he called a "Positive Christianity" and portrayed Jesus as the model warrior against the Jews! The Nazis were influenced by the anti-Jewish pamphlets of Martin Luther - the Protestant reformer. The most famous of these tracts by Luther was titled "On Jews and their lies".

Much of this anti-Jewish sentiment can be traced to Christian scripture. Jesus described the Jews as "snakes", "a brood of vipers", "sons of the devil", "killers of the prophets", "an adulterous nation" etc, if the New Testament is to be believed. Now this sounds like the first Nazi manifesto.

I would even argue that Christianity sponsored a climate where the native americans were subject to extermination in the Americas, where the Inca and Maya civilizations perished, where the aborigines of Australia were exterminated and where the transatlantic slave trade took place. But that discussion later.

Let us admit that Christianity introduced a climate where Jews were target of attack - not deny history!

#23
Chandra
April 6, 2007
05:06 AM

Dipendra

If you are right, how come there was no holocaust anywhere else except under the Germans?

a. The inquisition that you mentioned happened in the 15-16th century,some 400 odd years before the jews were massacred in the holocaust. So to draw a causal relationship between two events 400 years apart does not make sense and is not proven by any literature available on Hitler's thoughts at the same time

In fact, the Jews were treated quite well in these countries (spain and Port) during the time Herr Hitler was busy at Auschwitz.

b. The "concordant" with Hitler: I think here is something will rebuke your implied suggestion that the church somehow encouraged hitler

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,765103,00.html

There is no denying that anti-semitism existed and probably still exists in European polity. However the primary triggers were ethnic and financial. Which is why the holocaust was an exclusive activity by the Germans and not something that the Britts or Russians or French engaged in their respective countries.

rgds



#24
leigh
April 6, 2007
06:16 AM

Dipendra says:Much of this anti-Jewish sentiment can be traced to Christian scripture. Jesus described the Jews as "snakes", "a brood of vipers", "sons of the devil", "killers of the prophets", "an adulterous nation" etc, if the New Testament is to be believed. Now this sounds like the first Nazi manifesto."

Jesus was directing his comments to certain( not all, after all Nicodemus was a Pharisee) some Pharisees a sect of jews. Jesus was a Jew.. go read the Bible carefully..or did you deliberately distort the text?
Is killing prophets not a bad thing or do you think it bad to criticise muderers?!Rhetorical question here.

#25
kela
April 6, 2007
06:31 AM

chandra- glad you took my advice .

#26
Anamika
April 6, 2007
09:43 AM

Chandra, you says that "The inquisition that you mentioned happened in the 15-16th century,some 400 odd years before the jews were massacred in the holocaust. So to draw a causal relationship between two events 400 years apart does not make sense and is not proven by any literature available on Hitler's thoughts at the same time
In fact, the Jews were treated quite well in these countries (spain and Port) during the time Herr Hitler was busy at Auschwitz."

Couple of points - The expulsion from Spain (Christian lands so to speak) of 1492 decimated the Jewish community in Spain and much of modern Portugal. That community was never really built up again, even until the 20th century. While Primo de Rivera changed the anti-Jewish policy, it was Franco's reliance on the Allies that helped ensure that Jews fleeing the Nazis could transit through a "neutral" Spain. This is far more complex of course but would take a few thousand words to discuss in all its complexity.

Btw, Hitler's "Final Solution" was merely the most well organised attempt at eliminating the European Jewry. And the most modern as it drew on all the advantages of industrialization. In the 400 years between the Inquisition (which is not quite true because the Inquisition lasts in some places until 1700s), there were other massacres of the Jews in Europe. The Venetian carnival had a specific component to humiliate and brutalise the Jewish population until after the Englightenment. While a section of the jewry did rise to positions of prominence in Europe, the constant hatred for them, as well as discrimination did not stop at any point between the Inquisition and the Holocaust (read social history regarding France's Dreyfuss affair for example). Moreover expulsions and massacres continued in Russia, much of Eastern Europe, Poland even past the Enlightenment.

So Hitler was drawing on many years of historical hatred when he launched his programme for the Holocaust. The causal link - that consistent hate discourse against a minority will erupt into violence given specific social/economic/political circumstances and repeatedly so - has been established by both Jewsish and non-Jewish historians. Doesn't mean there will be mass scale violence ALL the time, but each cycle is linked to a prior one by the discourse of hatred and otherness.

The Church's role was problematic to say the least. If it weren't, then John Paul II wouldn't have needed to apologize at Auschwitz. Some priests risked their lives to save Jews, others went out of their way to give them up to the Nazis. The Church maintained a sophisticated polity of apparent neutrality but officially did little to stop the hatred and the ensuing violence.

Teaching kids that "jews killed jesus" or "jews eat Christian babies" (both common slanders in Europe for over 1000 years) was taught at various points of history from the pulpit. And the Church did not specifically refuse such slander until post-WW2. Of course, it still hasn't altered its stance on "jews killed jesus" - a line you can hear in a lot of fundamentalist (non-Catholic) churches today.

Btw, I needed to ask you your source for the economic data on Indian under British empire. Its fascinating and would be really useful for a course I am working on. Any help would be appreciated.

#27
Dipendra
April 6, 2007
09:59 AM

Chandra, Leigh

Let me respond to both of you jointly as you have chosen to defend Christianity's record on Judaism.

There are passages in the New Testament that many Jews (in my view quite correctly) consider to be explicitly anti-Jewish. You mention that these were directed at the Pharisees - i.e. the religious leadership of the Jewish people. In today's language, we would call them the rabbis.

There is a slight twist of semantics here i.e. to attack the Jewish leadership using foul language and to argue that there was no anti-Jewish connotation here. Many consider such passages to be anti-Jewish.

Jesus called the Jews/Pharisees the "children of the Devil" as recorded in chapter 8 of the book of John in the New Testament. Stephen and Paul continued the diatribe. Let us not forget that Christianity was seeking to carve out a space for itself independent of its parent religion and the need to reject its Jewish past is witnessed many a time in the New Testament!

Now let us go to the early church fathers around 300 CE. i.e. John Chrysostom, Cyprian, Augustine, Ambrose, Ephraim, Jerome, the Emperor Constantine - all of whom explicitly and viciously attacked the Jewish people in their homilies. The Emperor Justinian continued this campaign of hatred.

The church continued to provide intellectual leadership to anti-semitic sentiment. One sees this in the works of Aquinas - the medieval Roman Catholic theologian and Martin Luther - the founder of the Protestant reformation.

12000 Jews were reportedly massacred in Mainz, Germany during the Black Plague accused of having caused the disaster in the 1300s CE.

Luther urged that Jewish synagogues be set on fire, their houses razed, their prayer books burnt and their property confiscated. He added that they be shown no mercy. One sermon of his was "On Jews and Their Lies".

I refer to Encyclopedia Brittanica!

Now to the prelude to the violence associated with the church in the middle ages and later. One can refer to the Crusades that ended up as mass campaigns of murder directed at Jews who happened to be enroute of the Christian soldiers traveling to Jerusalam. One can refer to the wars of religion between Protestants and Catholics that led to hundreds of thousands dead between them - not Jews but Christians.

One can refer to the pogroms directed at Jews in Europe in the 1700s onwards where many thousands were killed, hundreds of thousands of houses burnt and millions displaced, the expulsion of Jews from several countries in the late 1800s/early 1900s in Eastern Europe including regions bordering Prussia.

In 1941, thousands of Jews were massacred by Lithuanian, Polish and Romanian nationalists during their uprisings against the Nazi forces.

The hatred of Jews can be traced back to early Christianity, remained in Europe through the centuries and culiminated in the Holocaust where non-Germans readily indulged in anti-Jewish pogroms with considerable glee!

As Martin Luther - the founder of the Lutheran church had argued "the Jew should be shown no mercy or kindness and should have no legal protection"!

So please please - do not white wash Christianity's sorry record of anti-semitism that many would argue lies deeply embedded in the New Testament itself.

#28
kela
April 6, 2007
10:32 AM

The JEWS murdered Jesus,wtf does that make them ?

#29
Anarch
URL
April 6, 2007
10:40 AM

Jesus juice vendors?

#30
kela
April 6, 2007
10:42 AM

FFS that was not funny at all.Today being good friday and all,man! you're gonna get hit by a bolt of lightning or something

#31
Chandra
April 6, 2007
11:01 AM

Anamika, Dipendra

Neither of you have been able to provide a single piece of evidence to suggest that Hitler was driven by his religious beliefs to cause the holocaust.

To quote dipendra----

"I challenge you when you said that the holocaust directed at the Jews had little do with Christianity but everything to do with the right wing ideology of Hitler!"

Nobody argues that there was or is anti-semitism. All I ask of you is to show those linkages and thats end of the debate.




rgds

#32
Anamika
April 6, 2007
11:49 AM

Chandra, I for one don't claim that Hitler was driven by an overt Christian ideology! So lets get this straight please.

I DO claim that Christian demonization of Jews resulted in repeated violence against the Jews in Europe over 2000 years, especially as the Church gained increased political and military power from about 800 AD. And this history of discourse and action made Holocaust possible.

(This also applies to Muslims but they were pretty completely expelled in 1492. Also remember that the Cathar Crusade was not only agains tthe Cathars but also intended to end the only multi-religious community in Europe where Jews and Muslims had equal rights and participation!)

I DO claim that the Nazi philosophy was a logical outgrowth of Christian theology, and ALSO used Christian hatred for Jews to carry out its policy.

Beginning the Enlightenment, there was an ostensible "secularization" or decrease of Church influence. However, John Grey (philosopher and academic at LSE) shows persuasively in his Progress and other Heresies, that the post-Enlightenment "secular" philosophies merely carried on the agendas and ideals of Christianity, including the ideal of linear time and 'progress' as well as binaries of us vs them, saved vs damned.

It was this Biblical binarism (religiously propagated in parallel beginning 17th century by the Calvinist/Protestant ethics that fed European capitalism) that led ideals of eugenics, racial superiority, social engineering, (itself linked to colonialism) etc.

By the time the Nazis come around, they are working on apparently secular modernist agenda of social progress. So NO Hitler doesn't confess to Christianity as a faith. But he and the Nazis are working on foundations of the same philosophy, as well as using millenial old discourse of hatred to whip up public support.

So while Hitler doesn't profess Christian faith, the Nazi ranks included Christian soldiers, officials and general supporters. They used Christian hatred for the Jews as a way of rallying support within Germany and much of Europe. The response from GOOD Christians in Poland (where the population is still OVERWHELMINGLY Catholic and virulently anti-Semitic) meant the near annihilation of one of the largest Jewish communities in Europe. And it wasn't all Nazis rounding up the Jews. The good Christians Poles were enthusiastically involved.

The new Verhoeven film Black Book suggests similar things about Holland. The issue was PRECISELY the difference between Christians and Jews. Similar phenomenon could be seen in much of Western Europe, even in places like the UK where a latent anti-Semitism informed much of the Anglican leadership during the war.

You are welcome to question the links because human discourse does not follow a mathematical A+B=C formula. But the links between anti-Jewish Christian discourse and recurrent anti-Semitic violence in Europe are well documented.

To PROVE this (as you want) would require a book and not an online discussion forum because I don't think we should be offhanded about history. But will be happy to look around and provide you with some reading references if you would like to carry out your own reading. On the other hand, Elie Wiesel (even though I have issues with some of his writing on Zionism); Chaim Potok; Isaac Balshevis Singer would all be starting points. Or just look at some of John Paul II's speeches regarding the Jewry and WW2.

Btw, can you please provide the source for colonial India's economic figures? OR how they can be accessed. Thanks...

#33
Chandra
April 6, 2007
12:01 PM

Anamika

The economic figures are something I found online. While I cannot recall where i did,I can re-search and get back to you. Will do it tonight.

rgds

#34
Chandra
April 6, 2007
12:59 PM

Anamika

I still donot see a linkage between Hitler's christian beliefs and the holocaust. On the contrary as my original post shows, in 1940 hitler spent huge amount of harassing christians as well.

Hitler in mein kampf had clearly stressed upon the strengths of Aryan superiority over all other races (Jews included). If you go through his speeches of the 20s and the 30s, none of them ever talk of his hatred of the jews being related to his religion. Instead his hatred was directed on the basis of his race being superior to the Jewish race.

Further, Hitler had consistently accused Jews in Germany of controlling the economy, politics , everything. He blamed them for the defeat in WW1 and everything after that.

The perfect corollary would be what many Hindus think about muslims in India. They hate muslims but it is not because their religion tells them to. Instead it is a mix of socio-economic and historical reasons.

rgds


#35
Chandra
April 6, 2007
01:14 PM

Anamika

Here are some links

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/lal1

http://india_resource.tripod.com/colonial.html

http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/judd/1939/10/indiastats.htm

#36
Chandra
April 6, 2007
01:18 PM

Anamika

I managed to find the link and I also realised I made a mistake.

Average income growth during the Raj was 0.3% and not -0.5%.

rgds

#37
Dipendra
April 6, 2007
01:34 PM

Chandra

Anamika has eloquently responded to you. She sums it up well.

The legacy of Christianity from the New Testament down has been one of anti-semitism where the Jews were persecuted. This provided a 1,900 year precedent that formed the ideological backdrop to Hitler's madness.

As the Holocaust proceeded, the church did little to stop it. Further, many (though not all) devout Christians either kept quiet or participated in turning in the Jews.

Some reports suggest that a Roman Catholic priest - Father Bernard Stempfle - edited Mein Kampf for Hitler. As I mentioned, several Catholic bishops encouraged prayers of support for the Fuhrer.

The Roman Catholic church entered into a concordat with Hitler in 1933. This ensured the loyalty of all bishops to the state, the teaching of Roman Catholicism in school, the right of the church to collect taxes and freedom for Roman Catholic organizations. This was a treaty between Nazi Germany and the Vatican.

The terms of the treaty remain valid in the post-war Federal Republic of Germany - much like the concordate between the Vatican and Mussolini which was only superceded in the very late 1990s!

Hitler repeatedly praised what he called "Positive Christianity". Let me quote him now:

"Jesus made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross".

This appears in Mein Kampf.

As Anamika pointed out, Hitler was not religious. His movement was not a Christian one although there is significant evidence of political links of convenience between the church and the Nazi party. But Hitler's holocaust owed a lot to the climate of anti-semitism fostered by the church for the past 1,900 years - one that had its roots in the New Testatement. Any passion play - including the one filmed by Mel Brookes.

I think your comparison of the anti-semitism in Europe with the anti-Muslim prejudice in India is specious at best. You do not know what you are talking about in this one instance!!

Anyway, Shabbat Shalom and a belated Happy Pesach :-)

#38
kela
April 6, 2007
02:06 PM

The Jews killed Jesus.They can still be forgiven if they accept Jesus as the saviour and christianity as the natural progression from judaism

#39
kela
April 6, 2007
02:24 PM

The same bible that Dipendra quotes has records of hundreds of instances of persecution by the Jews of the Lord's children.

#40
Chandra
April 6, 2007
02:36 PM

Dipendra:"I think your comparison of the anti-semitism in Europe with the anti-Muslim prejudice in India is specious at best. You do not know what you are talking about in this one instance!!


Chandra:Not european anti-semitism, hitler's anti semitism

rgds

#41
Chandra
April 6, 2007
02:57 PM

Dipendra

It is ironical that you quote parts of Mein Kampf that related to christ but not those parts (and which were most) that reflect upon the Aryan superiority theory and his hatred towards jews. Those anti-semitic views did not reflect the so called inter-relationship between his hatred for the Jews and his so called love for christianity.

Dipendra: Some reports suggest that a Roman Catholic priest - Father Bernard Stempfle - edited Mein Kampf for Hitler. As I mentioned, several Catholic bishops encouraged prayers of support for the Fuhrer.

Chandra: If indeed this was true how would justify the Time magazine report that I published in my first post. The fact that you call it 'some reports' is indicative of how strong that evidence.


Dipendra:The Roman Catholic church entered into a concordat with Hitler in 1933. This ensured the loyalty of all bishops to the state, the teaching of Roman Catholicism in school, the right of the church to collect taxes and freedom for Roman Catholic organizations. This was a treaty between Nazi Germany and the Vatican

Chandra: The signing of the concordat is in itself not an important event unless you can show evidence that the Pope supported the holocaust or made utterances to the effect. Till date neither of you have shown a single linkage.

Your whole case is driving at a causality that does not exist.
Your case ignores factors related to German nationalism, the defeat in WW II, the terms of the versailles treaty all of which played a critical role in driving the Nazis to do what they do.

The India-Muslim example is a perfect comparison with what Hitler did with the Jews.


Lastly, whatever the debate i would request you not to get personal again

"You do not know what you are talking about in this one instance!!"

rgds




#42
Chandra
April 6, 2007
03:26 PM

Anamika,Dipendra

Here is something from the controversial Dabru Emet that seems to say what I am saying (1 and 3) as well as what you are saying (2)

1.Nazism was not a Christian phenomenon.

2. Without the long history of Christian anti-Judaism and Christian violence against Jews, Nazi ideology could not have taken hold nor could it have been carried out. Too many Christians participated in, or were sympathetic to, Nazi atrocities against Jews. Other Christians did not protest sufficiently against these atrocities.

3.But Nazism itself was not an inevitable outcome of Christianity.

rgds

#43
Dipendra
April 6, 2007
10:26 PM

Chandra:

I think Anamika and I have made our case pretty clear.

Never did we argue Hitler was deeply Christian. We only emphasized that Europe until recently was deeply anti-semitic, an environment that owes to Christianity and explains Hitler's subsequent rise.

By the way Hitler would never have "won" the elections if not for the support of the Roman Catholic "Centrist" Party!!!

I still think you do not know what you are talking about when you compare the holocause with anti-Muslim prejudice in India!! Common - this is not a personal attack. The rest of what your write is perfectly ok - but not this - it is an insult to the six million Jews dead. It belittles what took place in World War 2.

#44
Dharman Dharmaratnam
April 6, 2007
11:56 PM

Chandra

Christianity is anti-semitic to its core. It preaches sheer hatred for the Jew. Hitler's mass murder of the Jews could never have taken place in any other civilizational environment.

To quote Dipendra, Jesus denigrated the Jews as "snakes", "a brood of vipers", "sons of the devil", "killers of the prophets", "an adulterous nation" etc. The church fathers quickly followed on the campaign of hate. No other religion preached such hate.

Best regards

#45
Chandra
April 7, 2007
01:18 AM

DD


I donot disagree with you about your views on christianity. In fact the they are absolutely anti-hindu and i am sure someday will lead christians to the same hell as muslims have been taken to by their leaders in India.


rgds

#46
kela
April 7, 2007
01:34 AM

Who are you fooling Mr Chandra ? We in this country have been witness to all the holy deeds of Hindus like- the Gujarat pogrom, burning alive of Graham Staines and his children by Bajrang Dal leader Dara Singh,Rape of Nuns in Gujarat,Murder of priests in Orissa and Gujarat.Need I say any more?

#47
Lakruwan
April 7, 2007
03:07 AM

Kela

I agree with you on the Gujarat riots. That was a complete breakdown of law just as the post-1984 riots in New Delhi not to mention the eviction of 300,000 Hindus from Kashmir valley in 1989.

About the purported rapes of nuns in Jabua - the evidence is unclear. I do not believe it since no court action followed. The story is that tribal youth had consensual sex with nuns belonging to the same tribe - which the mother superior tried to pass off as rape! The charge dissipated upon closer scrutiny.

Missionary activity is controversial where-ever it happens. Most Muslim countries have banned Christian evangelization - I think with good reason. So does Israel. The Roman Catholic church has condemned and tried to stop American-sponsored Protestant evangelization amongst its faithful in Latin America. China does not permit missionary activity.

India is perhaps the only non-Christian country in the world to have a category of visas called "missionary" visa!

cheers

#48
Chandra
April 7, 2007
03:35 AM

Lakruwan

What else can you expect from a Govt controlled by the vatican through their true follower Ms Maino and Mr Samuel Rajasekhar Reddy?

rgds

#49
kela
April 7, 2007
04:08 AM

Lakruwan _ give me a break for FFS.The jabua case was about 4 nuns and they were gang raped by 24 hindus.
I know you guys are just full of BS and just to show you its really no big deal what you copy & paste monkeys are doing here are some stats for you to chew on -
February 1999: Jacqueline Mary, Catholic nun, was gang-raped by men in Mayurbhanj district.

March 1999: 157 Christian homes were set afire and more than 12 persons injured in Ranalai village. Three persons received gunshot wounds. About 100 Adivasi activists working for Hindutva are claimed to have attacked the village bearing firearms and other weapons. After the attack, Bharat Paik, a BJP leader, said that the Christians had burnt down their own homes.

September 1999: Arul Das, Catholic priest, was murdered in Jamabani village, Mayurbhanj district, followed by the destruction of churches in Phulbani district.

February 2004: Seven women, Sanjukta Kandi, 45 years, Shanti Kandi, 25, Sumitra Kandi, 22, Umitra Kandi, 19, Nayana Samal, 21, Nisha Samal, 40, and Subhas Samal, 28, and a male pastor were forcibly tonsured in Kilipal, Jagatsinghpur district, and a social and economic boycott was imposed against them.

February 2005: Gilbert Raj, Baptist pastor with the India Mission, was murdered and allegedly tortured before being killed.

February 2005: Dilip Dalai, Pentecostal pastor, age 22, was stabbed to death at his residence in Begunia village, Khordha district.

August 1999: Sheikh Rehman, a male Muslim clothes merchant, was mutilated and burnt to death in public demonstration at the Padiabeda weekly market in Mayurbhanj district and various social and economic boycotts placed against the Muslim community. Buluram Mohanty, a colleague of Dara Singh's, was charged. It was also alleged that Dara Singh was involved in this case. Andha Nayak, an accomplice of Dara Singh's, was arrested in 2003 for inciting Adivasis against Muslim cattle traders in the Padiabeda area.

read more at this link http://www.secularindia.com/news/2007/01/22Hindutva%20Forces.htm

#50
kela
April 7, 2007
04:09 AM

A catalogue of crimes --
read link http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1603/16030130.htm

#51
Sujai
URL
April 7, 2007
04:53 AM

Which wars are then are religious?

Every modern war is waged under the pretext of fighting for the rights of humans, dignity of one's life, freedom, nationalist pride. Which war of in the modern days was waged on religion?

Why should only Islam be blamed for religious wars? Is German-Jew conflict religious or not? If one religion is targeted exclusively for belonging to that religion it has religious bearings. Why did the seat of Christianity condone the Holocaust? Why were Jews persecuted in the whole of two thousand years? How did Nazis inherit the hatred for Jews? Yes, Hitler, in many words, did not embrace Christianity, but most Nazis who actually carried out the persecution were practicing Christians, and their morality and defense of their actions was borrowed from the previous and earlier actions of Christianity.

If these wars are not religious, which wars are religious then? Is invasion of Mughals done under Islam or was it something similar to Chengiz Khan invading most of Asia? Was Chengiz Khan motivated by religion or the territorial ambitions? Or were the WWI wars of Arabs against British religious? Was Saddam religious? Was the Iran-Iraq conflict religious? Was the war waged by Arabs against Israel religious? Or is it for territorial gains? Was the Iraq invasion of Kuwait religious? Is the persecution of Bengalis by Punjabi Pakistani's religious?

Isn't partition of India religious? If so, should Islam be blamed for half a million Hindus and Muslims killed during Partition? Or should Hindus and Sikhs also take a part of the blame? Is the breakup of former Yugoslavia religious? If so, should only Muslims takes the blame for those killed, or should the Christians and Orthodox religions take blame for it? Isn't US invasion of Iraq religious? Aren't those decision makers who waged the war guided by religious beliefs?

Which of the wars waged by Islamic countries in the last century are religious? What are those wars of the modern times where only Islam is accused of religious wars and not the other party?

When an Islam nation goes to war it is termed religious, however when a non-Islam nation goes to war, it is based on a principle (to defend a nation, or ideology). We cannot ignore the fact tat most of the modern wars were waged by Christian countries and deaths due to those wars are more than 100 times those killed by Islamic countries. Whether a religion or nation or an ideology was used to rally people or not is irrelevant.

#52
Sujai
URL
April 7, 2007
05:05 AM

Chandra:

To think that there is no causal relationship between Inquisition and Holocaust is downright ignorance. The Jews were always persecuted in whole of Europe- these sentiments were even carried to newer lands like US. Though Holocaust was taken to a completely different scale, thanks to massive support from Christianity, persecution of Jews was a constant phenomenon. Here is a list of such persecution- the year, followed by place, followed by the nature of persecution.
Source: P.E. Grosser & E.G. Halperin, Anti-Semitism: Causes and Effects, New York: Philosophical Library, 1978

1426 C.E. Cologne Expulsion
1431 C.E. Southern Germany Jews Burned Alive
1432 C.E. Savory Expulsion
1438 C.E. Mainz Expulsion
1439 C.E. Augsburg Expulsion
1449 C.E. Toledo Public Torture &. Burnings
1456 C.E. Bavaria Expulsion
1453 C.E. Franconia Expulsion
1453 C.E. Breslau Expulsion
1454 C.E. Wurzburg Expulsion
1463 C.E. Cracow Mob Attack
1473 C.E. Andalusia Mob Attack
1480 C.E. Venice Jews Burned Alive
1481 C.E. Seville Stake Burnings
1484 C.E. Cuidad Real, Guadalupe, Saragossa & Teruel Jews Burned Alive
1485 C.E. Vincenza (Italy) Expulsion
1486 C.E. Toledo Jews Burned Alive
1488 C.E. Toledo Stake Burnings
1490 C.E. Toledo Public Executions
1491 C.E. Astorga Public Torture & Execution
1492 C.E. Spain Expulsion
1495 C.E. Lithuania Expulsion
1497 C.E. Portugal Expulsion
1499 C.E. Germany Expulsion
1506 C.E. Lisbon Mob Attack
1510 C.E. Berlin Public Torture & Execution
1514 C.E. Strasbourg Expulsion
1519 C.E. Regensburg Expulsion
1539 C.E. Cracow & Portugal Stake Burnings
1540 C.E. Naples Expulsion
1542 C.E. Bohemia Expulsion
1550 C.E. Genoa Expulsion
1551 C.E. Bavaria Expulsion
1555 C.E. Pesaro Expulsion
1556 C.E. Sokhachev (Poland) Public Torture & Execution
1559 C.E. Austria Expulsion
1561 C.E. Prague Expulsion
1567 C.E. Wurzburg Expulsion
1569 C.E. Papal States Expulsion
1571 C.E. Brandenburg Expulsion
1582 C.E. Netherlands Expulsion
1593 C.E. Brunswick Expulsion
1597 C.E. Cremona, Pavia & Lodi Expulsion
1614 C.E. Frankfort Expulsion
1615 C.E. Worms Expulsion
1619 C.E. Kiev Expulsion
1635 C.E. Vilna Mob Attack
1637 C.E. Cracow Public Torture & Execution
1647 C.E. Lisbon Jews Burned Alive
1648 C.E. Poland 1/3 of Jewry Slaughtered
1649 C.E. Ukraine Expulsion
1649 C.E. Hamburg Expulsion
1652 C.E. Lisbon Stake Burnings
1654 C.E. Little Russia Expulsion
1656 C.E. Lithuania Expulsion
1660 C.E. Seville Jews Burned Alive
1663 C.E Cracow Public Torture &. Execution
1664 C.E. Lemberg Mob Attack
1669 C.E. Oran (North Africa) Expulsion
1670 C.E. Vienna Expulsion
1671 C.E. Minsk Mob Attacks
1681 C.E. Vilna Mob Attacks
1682 C.E. Cracow Mob Attacks
1687 C.E. Posen Mob Attacks
1712 C.E. Sandomir Expulsion
1727 C.E. Russia Expulsion
1738 C.E. Wurtemburg Expulsion
1740 C.E. Liule Russia Expulsion
1744 C.E Bohemia Expulsion
1744 C.E. Livonia Expulsion
1745 C.E. Moravia Expulsion
1753 C.E. Kovad (Lithuania) Expulsion
1757 C.E. Kamenetz Talmud Burning
1761 C.E. Bordeaux Expulsion
1768 C.E. Kiev 3,000 Jews Slaughtered
1772 C.E. Russia Expulsion
1775 C.E. Warsaw Expulsion
1789 C.E. Alsace Expulsion
1801 C.E. Bucharest Mob Attack
1804 C.E. Russian Villages Expulsion
1808 C.E. Russian Countryside Expulsion
1815 C.E. Lubeck & Bremen Expulsion
1820 C.E. Bremes Expulsion
1843 C.E. Austria & Prussia Expulsion
1850 C.E. New York City 500 People, Led by Police, Attacked &. Wrecked, Jewish Synagogue
1862 C.E. Area under General Grant's Jurisdiction in the United States Expulsion
1866 C.E Galatz (Romania) Expulsion
1871 C.E. Odena Mob Attack
1887 C.E. Slovakia Mob Attacks
1897 C.E. Kantakuzenka (Russia) Mob Attacks
1898 C.E. Rennes (France) Mob Attack
1899 C.E. Nicholayev Mob Attack
1900 C.E. Konitz (Prussia) Mob Attack
1902 C.E. Poland Widespread Pogroms
1904 C.E. Manchuria, Kiev & Volhynia Widespread Pogroms
1905 C.E. Zhitomir (Yolhynia) Mob Attacks
1919 C.E Bavaria Expulsion
1915 C.E. Georgia (U.S.A.) Leo Frank Lynched
1919 C.E. Prague Wide Spread Pogroms
1920 C.E. Munich & Breslau Mob Attacks
1922 C.E. Boston, MA Lawrence Lowell, President of Harvard, calls for Quota Restrictions on Jewish Admission
1926 C.E. Uzbekistan Pogrom
1928 C.E. Hungary Widespread Anti-Semitic Riots on University Campuses
1929 C.E. Lemberg (Poland) Mob Attacks
1930 C.E. Berlin Mob Attack
1933 C.E. Bucharest Mob Attacks
1938-45 C.E. Europe Holocaust

#53
Chandra
April 7, 2007
05:16 AM

Sujai

Pardon my ignorance. I never realised that christians were so evil.


rgds

#54
Sujai
URL
April 7, 2007
06:44 AM

Whether our scriptures talk about it, condone it, prescribe it or NOT, caste discrimination is something that CANNOT be deniable. It was widely practiced in this country for centuries.

To say or even suggest that such concepts called caste or the caste-based-discrimination is a introduction of colonial masters is tantamount to denying history (like there are few out there who deny Holocaust).

#55
Sujai
URL
April 7, 2007
06:59 AM

Obsession with scriptures, its interpretation, its purport or its relevance is NOT going to take us anywhere. Each civilization or a culture acted differently at different times- whether the scriptures prescribed it or not. Some used the scriptures to further and promote self-interest, while few others tried to get a new meaning out of the scriptures. And some others created their own sacred scriptures to justify their ideologies.

What is important is the course of history, the people, their aspirations, and its relevance on the present generation. What is important is contemporary history with certain emphasis on the course of history that brought us to it.

The events of Post-Ottoman, and influence and indulgence of the west in the affairs of Islamic nations is extremely important to understand the present behavior of Islamic nations. Their present attitude is that of a rebel.

The current Hindu civilization is shaped by our attitudes that we developed towards masters- first the men, then the higher castes, then Muslim rulers, then the British, followed by upheaval movements in which we overthrew all of them- not violently but through slow and painful non-violent (with intermittent violent acts) movements. The biggest fight for Hindu civilization is from within. The present attitude is that of introspection and self-correction.

For Western Christians, it is shaped by movements of Reformation, Enlightenment, like that of Age of Reason, Age of Logic, and shaped a lot by what we believe are the 'modern values' of citizenship and adult franchise, fraternity, liberty, rule of law, modern sciences (Theory of Gravity, Origin of Species, Sigmund Freud, etc). The present attitude is that of moderation and refraining from over-indulgence.

#56
Anamika
April 7, 2007
07:05 AM

Hey Chandra, I agree with what Emet says in part. Ostensibly Nazism was not phenomenon linked theologically or denominationally to Christianity. Nor did it use the rhetoric of Christianity to rouse support - as had happened before (Crusades, Explusions, Inquisition).

Nazism was a fully modern 20th century phenomenon and sought to justify itself in post-Enlightenment 'rational' terms.

On the other hand, as Grey and other philosophers and philosophers of history have shows, "modernism" or indeed Enlightenment and the form it took was a 'secularised' version of Christian theology. It built on the idea of 'progress' rather than spiritual growth for example; or the Calvinist ideas of double pre- destiny for Christians which in turn builds on St. Paul's letters and Thomas Aquinas's work on predestination became linked to ideas of manifest destiny of the "saved." The colonial idea of the 'white man's burden' is an outgrowth of the evangelical 'saving'/conversion ideal of Christianity. As are implicit ideals of superiority.

Yes, race played a part in Nazi discourse, but philosophically enlightenment is the inheritor of Christian philosophy/theology and one reason for the binarism that exists in Western secular thought today.

I completely agree with Emet's second point that without the long history of Christian anti-
Judaism and Christian violence against Jews, Nazi ideology could not have taken hold nor could it have been carried out.

And yes, in the third point, I agree: Nazism itself was not an inevitable outcome of Christianity. Because it requireda specific set of historical, economic, political and human criteria to produce Nazism. Christianity was a major factor - both in terms of human participation, discursive prehistory of the event, and foundational philosophy. But none of that had to be inevitable.

After all a second part of Christian theology privileges free choice, even as pre-destiny is constructed on another thread. So people could have CHOSEN to not follow the Nazis or indeed counter them.

Thanks for the info.

#57
Sujai
URL
April 7, 2007
07:21 AM

Chandra, Anamika:
Excuse my intervention into your discussion.

Hitler though raised as Christian went on to dismiss Christianity. However, he is not an atheist (as seen from many of his statements attributing to 'Providence'). Hitler capitalized on the 'persecution of Jews by Christians' to make his case for extermination of Jews.

What is interesting is what happened to years preceding the advent of Nazism in Germany. The latter part of 19th century spew forth a slew of philosophies- extolling the virtues of supermen, those who transcended human (and sub-human) moralities. These philosophers created the groundwork. Nazism turned out to be a manifestation of these philosophies. Many of these philosophers are Christians. Some wanted to pristine nature of Christianity taking it away from those Christians who came into its fold. Finding solace in greatness of Greek and Roman civilizations, and thus keeping it 'pure' from other races that Christianity embraced, these philosophies introduced the element of race into the prevailing practices of Christianity. That's why Pope and those seated in Rome were quite receptive to such ideas.

No wonder, Hitler, while denouncing Christianity, for what followed later (in which Christianity, according to Nazis, included too many races into its fold and became a meek religion)), was continuously using Christian sentiments to prosecute Jews. Though he went to war with many nations, he had a sense of respect and awe for pure races- including that of Britain. Insignia and paraphernalia for Nazis were borrowed from those pristine civilizations (that of Roman legions and that of supposedly Aryan civilization).

His disapproval of Christianity, though being close to Christianity is not something that is unique to Hitler. This was becoming quite accepted in Germany before the advent of Hitler and his Nazism.

#58
Chandra
April 7, 2007
08:04 AM

Anamika, Dipendra, Sujai

Here is a nice link that summarises Hitler's links with Christianity.

rgds

http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

#59
Lakruwan
April 7, 2007
08:26 AM

Sujai, Dipendra, Chandra and Anamika:

Fascinating discussion. Food for thought. Let me propose another line - now this might be controversial and I am but a layman subject to error, not a theologian. So I stand corrected.

Do you think that Nazi concepts of extermination might owe itself to the Bible. The old testament is full of reference to how Moses and Joshua command the destruction of the Moabites, the Canaanites, the Jebusites, the Philistines, the Edomites etc so that the people of Israel can populate the holy land. The Pentateuch and succeeding books describe the extermination of tribes by the people of Israel. The Prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah continue this trend spewing hatred for the Syrian, Assyrian, the Babylonian etc. The partisan Hebrew "God" takes sides - at one time punishing the Hebrews for their supposed disobedience and at the other time extermination their adversary for "oppressing" his chosen people.

"God" is a partisan actor in these tribal wars where he always eventually condemns the adversaries of the Hebrews to death and damnation. Rarely is there sentiment expressed of transcending petty tribal identities to a broader enlightened universalism.

In the new testatament there is reference in implicit form the Calvinist notion of predestination i.e. that "God" had chosen the "elect" i.e. a portion of humanity way before he created them for salvation while damning the others way before creation to eternal hell, sulphur and brimstone. There is no mercy for the condemned - "God" does this merely to express his power!

I refer to Ephesians chapter 1, Romans chapter 8, Acts, chapter 4, 1st Corintheans chapter 2 etc.

With such a scriptural legacy as the Bible, no wonder genocide, inquisition, pogroms, crusades and the holocaust took place. I have simplified the material to get the point across. That perhaps the Bible divided humanity into the "saved" and the "damned". It takes little stretch then to condemn an entire people for elimination as the Holocaust just did.

cheers

#60
kela
April 7, 2007
10:05 AM

Jews by referring to themselves as the "Chosen" people are the biggest racist bigots

#61
kela
April 7, 2007
10:14 AM

controversial cd of BJP The contents of the CD allegedly comprise footage of Babri structure as well as the Godhra carnage.Its a shame this party has not been de-recognised

#62
kela
April 7, 2007
10:17 AM

visit and show your support http://stopfundinghate.org/

#63
MrinaliniB
April 7, 2007
10:37 AM

Fascinating discussion guys. I am no expert on theology but was still able to enjoy the points raised here.

One bit of information which I can add to the deep rooted anti-semitism in Europe is France. The Vichy regime rounded up and sent so many Jews to Auschwitz and other concentration camps that even the much dreaded SS told them to go easy a bit!! They did not have to do this inorder to get a "good name" from Hitler, it appears that they made use of a good chance to get rid of the "filth".

This is from a country which is avowedly secular having disowned the monarchy and the Church which supported the monarchy during the Revolution. It was one of the earliest countries to explicitly pass laws on the separation of Church and the State. But yet, even as it proclaimed to be the true inheritor of the Enlightenment, it miserably failed to curb its anti-semitism rooted in Catholicism.

It was finally during the regime of Jacques Chirac when an apology was rendered for the indiscriminate rounding up and handing over of Jews to the Nazis.

best regards,

#64
Piyali
April 7, 2007
10:41 AM

Wonderful topic.I would like to add my comments to it-
The dalit's pariah status derives its strength and justification from religious texts. In the Manusmriti, (3) the dalit is described as "polluted," in the same way as a menstruating woman, a widow, or a person who has recently been bereaved is polluted. The dalit is "unclean" from birth. He violates, by his very existence, the brahminical obsession with hygiene (Dumont, 1980: 131). While the "untouchability" of the menstruating woman or the bereaved is temporary and he or she can escape the Untouchable condition after the period of "pollution" is past, the dalit can never escape his status: he is perpetually filthy.

In a hymn from the Purusasukta of the Rg Veda, (4) the dvija are said to have been born from elevated parts of the body of the supreme being. The dalit is the "unborn," with no physical link with the supreme being. According to this hymn, from the body of Brahma come the four main categories of Hindu society, namely the four varnas (colors or castes): (5) brahmins (priests), kshatriyas (warriors), vaishyas (businessmen), and shudras (servants). The priest is born from the mouth of the Creator, the warrior from the arm, the businessman from the stomach, and the servant from the foot. Untouchables are born from outside the body of the Creator, almost a different species from Brahma's children. Their entry into the divine body would be as unthinkable as the entry of an animal.

Today, the literary and scholarly efflorescence among dalits is set apart from caste Hindu society as a particularly dalit development. Dalit critiques of nation and society barely impinge on upper-caste notions of the social order, of the nation-state, and of modernity in general. The reasons for this are often attributed to the grafting of traditional caste networks onto modern state institutions--for example, the upper-caste seizures of Western education and the higher bureaucracy. The slide of the independent Indian nation-state into a landscape dominated by the brahminical upper castes has meant that new ways have been found to effectively seal the dalit in his "democratic" prison (Nigam, 2000).

As a result of legally reserved quotas in government and in state educational institutions, sections of dalits have emerged from agricultural poverty to become middle class. Yet the waters of modern opportunity flow along the fields of the upper castes, which were the main beneficiaries of the professional opportunities provided by colonialism and which also stand to gain the benefits of contemporary globalization, such as opportunities in the Information Technology industry or in the private sector. Thus, while dalit political importance and militancy rises, at the same time the dalit remains segregated from caste Hindu society by the invisible arms of caste.

The word "dalit" or "crushed underfoot" or "broken into pieces" is the contemporary version of the word "Untouchable." "Dalit" owes its genesis to the nineteenth-century writings of Jotirao Govindrao Phule as well as to the literature of the Dalit Panthers, a political group formed in 1972 in the state of Maharashtra. British colonial census takers grouped together all those communities' neighbors considered "polluted" and called them "Untouchable." "harijan" or "children of god" was Mahatma Gandhi's name for dalits. The word "Untouchable" is sometimes still used, but "harijan" is seen as an equivalent of "Uncle Tom," a paternalistic and condescending categorization of a group doomed to remain in perpetual bondage. Dalit leader Bhaurao Gaikwad observed in 1935 that "It is no use only giving Untouchables a sweet name. Something practical should be done to ameliorate their conditions" (Moon, 1987, vol. 4: 230). Today most Untouchable castes would prefer to use the term "dalit" as an identity of assertion. The UN Conference against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia, and Related Intolerance held in Durban, South Africa, in September 2001 equated "racism" with "casteism"; although this parallel has been systematically criticized, the word "dalit" has been interpreted by some activists as equivalent to "Black."

#65
Roopwati Chatterjee
April 7, 2007
10:44 AM

Fantastic debate,I fully agree with Piyali.
Hindu scriptures including ManuSmriti advocates strict caste system. Quotes from Manu SMriti and Rig Veda The dalit's pariah status derives its strength and justification from religious texts. In the Manusmriti, (3) the dalit is described as "polluted," in the same way as a menstruating woman, a widow, or a person who has recently been bereaved is polluted. The dalit is "unclean" from birth. He violates, by his very existence, the brahminical obsession with hygiene (Dumont, 1980: 131). While the "untouchability" of the menstruating woman or the bereaved is temporary and he or she can escape the Untouchable condition after the period of "pollution" is past, the dalit can never escape his status: he is perpetually filthy. In a hymn from the Purusasukta of the Rg Veda, (4) the dvija are said to have been born from elevated parts of the body of the supreme being. The dalit is the "unborn," with no physical link with the supreme being. According to this hymn, from the body of Brahma come the four main categories of Hindu society, namely the four varnas (colors or castes): (5) brahmins (priests), kshatriyas (warriors), vaishyas (businessmen), and shudras (servants). The priest is born from the mouth of the Creator, the warrior from the arm, the businessman from the stomach, and the servant from the foot. Untouchables are born from outside the body of the Creator, almost a different species from Brahma's children. Their entry into the divine body would be as unthinkable as the entry of an animal. If Mr. Sunil is unaware of the Manusmriti laws agaist lower castes and women then he is either pretending or he is negligiant. This is the main reason, Dr B.R. Ambedkar burnt portions of this book on 25th Decemeber 1927 at Mahad in Maharashtra. The Varna system has destroyed the Indian society so badly that 60% of its population still lives around the poverty line. Educated people may not practice untouchability as such but their minds are prejudiced as they were years ago. In Villages the conditions of Untouchables or Dalits is worse. India needs to get rid of this plague but for this lets first agree that there is a problem with this system

#66
Lakruwan
April 7, 2007
10:49 AM

Piyali

The Purusha Sukta makes no reference to the untouchable. In fact, the Rig Veda makes no reference to the concept. You are twisting facts in your narrow bigotry.

Manu is not a religious text, it is a social text meant for a specific time and irrelevant for other times by its own admission. Read the text rather than rely on colonial missionary sociologiests.

By contrast Christianity is specific that non-believers go to eternal hell and are without redemption. People who do not accept Jesus are damned for eternity, condemned to sulphur and brimstone. This includes Jews, Moslems, Hindus and Buddhists!

More bloodshed has been committed in the name of Jesus than anyone else. I think that historical fact has been established in all the preceding comments and does not need reiteration.

[EDITED]

#67
MrinaliniB
April 7, 2007
11:31 AM

Exactly Lakruwan. Manusmriti is a social text, looks like the above two posters clearly are rehashing the colonial missionary sociologists. It is a travesty that such notions are tolerated in an Indic fora. Well this again reiterates your point that the so-called tolerance is advocated only for Hindus. The Hindu society is supposed to completely support the evangelical's mission who thinks that the Hindu has to be "saved". Otherwise, we will be put on some State department watch list on religious freedom - which is the term for unfettered proselytation.

Meanwhile here is more information on the believer's deeds while spreading the "message of the Lord". Spain and Portugal conquered the Americas in the name of spreading Christianity. The result was genocide where Native American Inca, Maya and Aztec civilizations perished and peoples died in their millions. The Brits annexed Australia in the name of Christianity. The consequence was the extermination of the Australian Aborigine. The Europeans annexed India in the name of their religion. The Portuguese brought their inquisition to Goa where Francis Xavier presided over the murder of hundreds of Muslims. The Europeans conquered Africa to spread Christianity. The result was the slave trade. South Africa established a system of Apartheid based on the Dutch Reformed Church. The southern states of the United States had similar laws of segregation based on church authority!

The Roman Catholic church did not pronounce one word of censure against Adolf Hitler till he was reported dead. Cardinal Pacelli later became Pope. He was papal nuncio in Germany during Hitler's rise to power. He offered no censure of the Nazis for the orgy of arson, torture and murder!

The Pope washed his hands of responsibility when Germany invaded Norway and Denmark on the ground that "no Roman Catholic country was involved and that he had to "keep in mind the 30,000,000 German Roman Catholics". And when France fell into the clutches of the Nazis, the "Osservatore Romano" - the mouthpiece of the church - hailed it as "the dawn of a new and radiant day not only for France but for Europe and the world". The "Catholic Herald" added that "all that is vital in the soul of France, purified and glorified in heroic suffering can look out once more upon Europe with a clear Christian purpose".

H.G. Well was once asked the question: "Do you regard the Roman Catholic church as a definite menace to human freedom" to which he replied "I think that it stands for everything most hostile to the mental emancipation and stimulation of mankind. It is the completest, most highly organized system of prejudices and antagonisms in existence. Everywhere in the world there are ignorance and prejudice, but the greatest complex of these with the most extensive prestiage and the most intimate entanglement with traditional institutions is the Roman Catholic church. It presents many faces towards the world, but everywhere it is systematic in its fight against freedom.

best regards

#68
Dipendra
April 7, 2007
11:38 AM

Piyali and Roopwati,

You seem to be repeating the identical paragraphs. Excellent coordination on your part. Hallelujah! Praise the Lord!!

But let us keep this discussion at the intellectual level - not a Hindu vs Christian mud-slinging match :-).

The Rig Veda had no reference what so ever to untouchability. I think the mention of the Purusa Sukta is misplaced - there is no untouchable mentioned there!! And anyway, it is a very late hymn in the Rig Veda if modern textual criticism is to be accepted.

The Upanishads emphasized the unity of humanity -where the one Atman was at the core of each human being irrespective of his or her caste. Each human had divinity at his or her inner most self and was capable of reaching the highest truth i.e. enlightenment. The spirit of the Upanishads was that of liberalism.

Further, there was a rich tradition of dissent in the Hindu religion. I refer to Ramanuja in Tamil Nadu and Narasimha Mehta in Gujarat who endeavored hard to uplift the outcaste through religion and ensure social justice. Ramanuja used the word "Tiru-kulattar" i.e. the holy people while Narasimha Mehta used the word " Hari-jana" or people of god. Sankar Deb in Assam; Namdev, Eknath and Tukaram in Maharashtra; Vemana in Andhra Pradesh; the Nayanmars and Alwars in Tamil Nadu; and Ramanand and Raidas in Uttar Pradesh spoke out against caste and affirmed the equality of all individuals regardless of their social origin. They made the case for social emancipation using Hindu philosophy and devotionalism as the cornerstone.

This same trend was seen elsewhere in India and continued in modern times to Narayana Guru in Kerala; Raja Ram Mohan Roy and Debendranath Tagore in Bengal; Mohandas K. Gandhi in Gujarat; Swami Dayananda Saraswathi in Gujarat/Punjab etc. There was a constant trend to assert the equality of all in the name of Hindu devotionalism.

I do not see any parallel trend in Christianity that fought for the rights of the non-Christian or the Jew.

Yes caste is a blight and a horrible one. Much of its prevalence today is due to the lackluster economic growth in rural India which is in turn the inheritance of Nehruvian socialism. But to mischeviously denigrate Hinduism in that regard without equal mention of the countervailing liberating trends with the religion is dishonest.

Hinduism has a rich tradition of dissent where the case was made for social equality. This goes back to the Upanishads.

The Manu Dharma Shastra was a casteist document. But its references to untouchability were only akin to Biblican damnation against those who were not the Chosen People in the Old Testament or believers in Christ in the New Testament.

There are some who argue that contemporary Dalit assertion has less to do with Ambedkar and more to do with the sponsorship of the American evangelical right intent on weakening India. The equality and empowerment of the Dalit is non-negotiable. But we do not need Christianity for that purpose.

Best regards

#69
Aaman
URL
April 7, 2007
11:45 AM

Dipendra, that's not hard, when they share an IP with another prolific commenter

#70
kela
April 7, 2007
02:35 PM

lol Aaman not fair,i bet others are doing just the,anyways i'm done with this post,these fools can keep on typing crap I'm happy being a christian

#71
kela
April 7, 2007
02:38 PM

Now I'm really proud we have a former Nazi as our Pope who thinks rock music is satanic - keep it up you guys,spew more hate,you're making us more stronger

#72
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
April 7, 2007
05:54 PM

"Jews by referring to themselves as the 'Chosen' people are the biggest racist bigots"

When I last left off looking at this article on Friday, this comment (#60) had not yet appeared.

I received an e-mail from Aaman commenting on possible Jew hatred on the comment thread, and was asked to make comment.

I'm not interested in "apologizing" for our beliefs per se, so do not take what I write in that vein.

But I will take the trouble to explain what this means. It is obvious to me that while some of you have some familiarity with Jewish texts, none of you appear to read or write in Hebrew, the tongue our holy texts were mostly composed in.

During the story of the Exodus, Egypt experienced ten "blows" makót, from the Almighty, a term mistranslated in most texts as "plagues." These makót reduced Egypt to ruins. The country needed about four hundred years to recover from the devastation of these blows, by which time, the kingdom of Shlomo (Solomon) had been established. We first see Egypt mentioned again in the ancient history of Israel when Shlomo marries the daughter of the Pharaoh to secure peace on his western border. [Kings II]

After the third maká on Egypt, the Almighty decided to distinguish between Israel and Egypt to demonstrate to the Egyptian monarch His power. From here you begin to see the idea that is later emphasized in the Torá, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible.

In essence, the concept we see in the Book of D'varím/Deuteronomy is this. That the Children of Israel shall be a holy nation, goi qadósh set aside from others and counted apart from the rest of mankind.

That is what we are expected by G-d to be. Obviously, we have not lived up to that expectation, though the list of persecutions in comment #52 should demonstrate amply that this is how Jews were treated in Europe and the Middle East; a nation set apart - for persecution.

The word "qadósh" means, at its root, set apart. "Holiness" is a derivation from the idea of being set apart. That is the concept in the Torá.

If you desire to call us racist bigots for this belief, feel free to do so.
But I digress.

For those who wish to comprehend more thoroughly this concept of "chosenness" please turn to the Book of D'varím/Deuternomy Chapters 28 through 32.

Thank you to those who have chosen to defend the Children of Israel on this comment thread...

Blessings from Ma'aleh Levona,
Reuven

#73
leigh
April 7, 2007
11:13 PM

Dipendra: you will know if you read the Bible Jesus condemned the Pharisees, not all Jews. In John 8 the text notes explicitly that it was the Pharisees who challenged him - not all Rabbis were Pharisees.( later references in John 8 to the Jews must be to the Pharisees who wanted to kill him. He used strong language not foul language. Jesus did not attack Jews generally. I have to also (wearingly) repeat that he was Jewish himself . You can insist on taking a different view but the evidence does not support your bias.
It may of course make you feel better but truth is not a feeling.

#74
Aaman
URL
April 8, 2007
12:29 AM

Anyone watched South Park this week (S11e05)? Very appropriate - all about a rabbit-worshipping secret society and the sinsister plot of the Church, and lots more typically South Park poking-the-finger at sacrosanct nonsense.

#75
MrinaliniB
April 8, 2007
12:42 AM

Reuven:

Kela's statement in comment # 60 was inexcusable. Let me express regrets on behalf of all here - to single out one community as "racist bigots" is certaintly anti-semitic chauvanism of the worst kind. While this might have been common place in Christendom, it is simply unforgiveable in the modern world.

Leigh:

Many would disagree with your interpretation. It appears to be white-washing Christian scripture. But to each her or his view. It is a free world, you know.

Best regards

Mrinalini

#76
kela
April 8, 2007
06:19 AM

oh yeah you can heap abuse on christians and the bible and its free speech and if i comment on jews it becomes anti-semitic and chauvinistic,awesome.
Long live our Nazi Pope

#77
kela
April 8, 2007
07:04 AM

Some Teachings of the Talmud:

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

Moed Kattan 17a . If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men").

Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals ("she-asses").

Jews are Divine, Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Jews Have Superior Legal Status, Baba Kamma 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews, Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a Gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b).

Sanhedrin 76a . God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a Gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.

Baba Kamma 37b. Gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

Jews May Lie to Non-Jews, Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.

Non-Jewish Children Sub-Human, Yebamoth 98a. All Gentile children are animals.

Abodah Zarah 36b . Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

Abodah Zarah 67b . "The vessels of Gentiles, do they not impart a worsened flavor to the food cooked in them?"

Insults Against Blessed Mary, Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

#78
kela
April 8, 2007
07:09 AM

pictures showing israeli murder of innocents -
http://www.answering-christianity.com/pali_torture.htm

#79
Chandra
April 8, 2007
07:09 AM

Kela's source for the above post is

http://www.ety.com/HRP/racehate/talmud1.htm

#80
kela
April 8, 2007
07:14 AM

Some more Talmud teachings -
1). "The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts." (Talmud: Baba Mezia 114b)

2). "The Akum (Negro) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honor the dog more than the Akum." (Ereget Raschi Erod. 22
30)

3). "Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an
animal. Therefore he will be served by animals in human form." (Midrasch Talpioth, p. 255, Warsaw 1855)

4). "A pregnant non-Jew is no better than a pregnant animal." (Coschen Hamischpat 405)

5). "The souls of non-Jews come from impure spirits and are called pigs." (Jalkut Rubeni gadol 12b)

6). "Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew like a monkey to a human." (Schene
Luchoth Haberith, p. 250b)

So that the Jew will never forget that he is dealing with animals, he is reminded by eating, by death, and eve by sexual intercourse constantly. For The Talmud teaches:

1). "If you eat with a non-Jew, it is the same as eating with a dog." (Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b)

2). "If a Jew has a non-Jewish servant of maid who dies, one should not express sympathy to the Jew. You should tell to the Jew:
?God will replace ?your loss,' just as if one of his oxen or asses had died." (Jore Dea 377, 1)

3). "Sexual intercoms between non-Jews is like intercourse between animals." (Sanhedrin 74b)

It is written in the Talmud about the murder of the non-Jew:

1). "It is permitted to take the body and the life of a non-Jew." (Sepher Ikkarim IIIc, 25)

2). "It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah (Talmud - Sanhedrin 59b). The Christians
belong to the denying ones of the Torah (Talmud)." (Coschen Hamischpat 425, Hagah 425, 5)

3). "Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jew), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God." (Bammidber Raba, c 21 & Jalkut 772)

#81
kela
April 8, 2007
07:16 AM

no dummy it wasn't from there

#82
Chandra
April 8, 2007
07:18 AM

Post by Kela # 80 is from here

http://www.missionislam.com/nwo/talmud.htm

#83
Chandra
April 8, 2007
07:20 AM

Kela 81...

Ya, Deny it. All one has to do is visit the link and know if you are telling the truth.

Why waste so much space by cut pasting texts, just paste the link.

#84
kela
April 8, 2007
07:20 AM

neither (_!_)
anyways so u thought only you knew how to use the internet LMAO ?

#85
kela
April 8, 2007
07:21 AM

Chandra : the pot calling the kettle black

(_!_)

#86
Chandra
April 8, 2007
07:29 AM

Kela, 84/85

More denial and blame game :-)

You have zero credibility here. May be you should now start posting as Rupwati/Piyali.


rgds


#87
kela
April 8, 2007
09:55 AM

zero creditability ? FFS like whatever you type is your research ,friggin copy paste monkey

#88
Chandra
April 8, 2007
10:08 AM

Kela...

The evidence is here for all to see....

a. You copy paste
b. You abuse people and communities



#89
kela
April 8, 2007
10:10 AM

and who was it who said christians and muslims should be shipped out of the country ??

#90
Die Hard
April 10, 2007
03:34 AM

Very interesting and thought provoking. Thanks Dileep, Lakruwan and the rest.

Why do people beleive in God?? Isn't it easier not to? Look at the crap (although interesting)you have reproduced herein (allegedly from scriptures)in the name of a non-existing fable!

"...non-Jews are not human"; ow hateful?

#91
Ruvy in Jerusalem
April 10, 2007
08:36 AM

Kela,

The comment that you posted to this article about violence in religion on the Talmud (comment#77) was a deliberate misrepresentation of what the Talmud contains, and what it is for.

The Talmud is not a "law book" in the sense that you or I would view a law book. It is a discussion of ideas that deal with legal issues and most specifically with instructions that Moshe gave to his brother Aharon, the first High Priest, but which always start with a concept in the Torah. The remarks you posted are part of wide ranging discussions. The Babylonian Talmud is 63 or 64 thick volumes, and there are fewer in the Jerusalem Talmud, of which many books have been lost to history. But these volumes are the scribbled notes by scribes of discussions held in various villages in ancient Israel by the remnants of the Sanhedrin after the Romans had destroyed the Temple of Hordós in Jerusalem. In a sense, they can be called judicial deliberations, but because there was nobody to provide a final authoritative summary, for the most part, decisions were not reached, something which vexes my son no end.

For a millennium and a half the Talmud was the survival manual of our people. Now that the promised messianic Redemption is approaching, it is possible to shift gears somewhat and focus more on the Prophecies in the Tana"kh (the Hebrew Bible), but for countless generations of Jews, Redemption was but a distant dream.

Kela, from the tenor of your own remarks on this and other articles about Jews and their killers, you have an animus against us that allows you to believe misrepresentations about my people. But there are tens of millions of other Indians and other readers of this site who do not necessarily have this animus of hatred, and I'll not permit your misrepresentations to go unchallenged...

#92
Aaman
URL
April 10, 2007
08:45 AM

Don't worry, Ruvy, millions of readers don't take Kela seriously, I don't think even he takes himself too seriously. Misrepresentations must be challenged, though - that is the very essence of this medium of communication.

#93
Anamika
April 10, 2007
12:10 PM

Ah, first kela disappoints on the men in skirts thead, now he posts hate mongering bs on this one! You know something - for a while I truly thought he wasn't a troll - but alas, the atavistic impulses of net-anonymity have proven too strong to resist and all his trollness now stands revealed.

#94
kyle ain
URL
January 19, 2008
02:03 PM

Personal attacks are not allowed yet the bigot author of this article attacks all Christians by claiming they've had a violent past. That is as stupid as condemning all humanity for what any group has done. Christians who believe in once saved always saved are not the Catholics who have ruined millions of lives for more than a 1000 years in their mental laziness when it comes to seeking the truth, pride and greed.

#95
kyle ain
URL
January 19, 2008
02:03 PM

Personal attacks are not allowed yet the bigot author of this article attacks all Christians by claiming they've had a violent past. That is as stupid as condemning all humanity for what any group has done. Christians who believe in once saved always saved are not the Catholics who have ruined millions of lives for more than a 1000 years in their mental laziness when it comes to seeking the truth, pride and greed.

#96
kyle ain
URL
January 19, 2008
02:05 PM

Personal attacks are not allowed yet the bigot author of this article attacks all Christians by claiming they've had a violent past. That is as stupid as condemning all humanity for what any group has done. Christians who believe in once saved always saved are not the Catholics who have ruined millions of lives for more than a 1000 years in their mental laziness when it comes to seeking the truth, pride and greed.

http://eternian.blogspot.com is the correct address to my website.

#97
commonsense
January 19, 2008
04:21 PM

Ruvy:

""The comment that you posted to this article about violence in religion on the Talmud (comment#77) was a deliberate misrepresentation of what the Talmud contains, and what it is for.""

Maybe! Why do you have to defend any religioni or even the concept of God? Let people be my friend. But wait, what about Rabbi Kahane, may G-d redeem his blood, claiming there is no such thing as the Palestinian people? They simply A-Rabs should be shipped to A-rab lands? Is that an interpretation or misinterpretation? Did he not want to outlaw sexual relations between jews and non-jews. Did he not want to outlaw the consumption of pork? And how about this chararcterization of Kahane your beacon of truth, by another (non-secular I might add) New York Jew? Do you say that the Jewish director of the Anti-Defamation League B'nai B'rith is anti-Semitic? You don't need anti-semites when there are people like Rabbi Kahane, may G-d redeem his blood spouting racism and is followers claiming that the Holocaust was divine punishment for Jews who had sinned by straying from the true path ordained by Kahane's interpretion of the texts. So, in your view, Abraham Foxman is an anti-semite?

Cut and paste from NY Times: (Dec 19, 2000)

Abraham H. Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith, described the Kahane activities as subterfuge and said they should be stopped. In 1995, the league issued a report on the Kahane movement, concluding it was ''a cult of violence and racism'' that had ''violated both the substance and spirit of Jewish tradition.''

Sorry, just me, getting all riled up again as people justify their own chosen religions while ridiculing others. Critique of religions dominating the public sphere should be an equal opportunity activity....just commonsense!

#98
commonsense
January 19, 2008
04:57 PM

Still in the rabid rant mode, so might as well.

The above rant was not at all meant to belittle religion. All religions provide resources for good and crap; social contexts allow the deployment of one rather than the other.

There is a gret quote from the great physicist Steven Weinberg at teh U of Texas. He won the nobel prize some time back(not for saying this!). I do not agree entirely with this quote, but here it is anyway:

"Evil men may sometimes do good things. But for good men to do evil things - that takes religion"

Of course one does not need religion to do evil things, so he is not quite right!

As I always repeat, ad nauseum, like a beyond broken record, may G-d eventually redeem it: wallow in which ever religion you choose or do not choose as much as you want. But resist the self-righteous temptation of using it as a basis for public policy as there is not a single society on earth where everybody follows only one religion.

#99
commonsense
January 19, 2008
05:07 PM

Mr Ruvy keeps talking about millions of Indian who are sympathetic to him and his Rabbi Kahane. This cut/paste from an article in NYT (June 2, 2001) might give us some idea of what he is talking about:

""Two Unlikely Allies Come Together

By DEAN E. MURPHY
Published: June 2, 2001
A Web site run by militant Hindus in Queens and Long Island was recently shut down by its service provider because of complaints that it advocated hatred and violence toward Muslims. But a few days later, the site was back on the Internet. The unlikely rescuers were some radical Jews in Brooklyn who are under investigation for possible ties to anti-Arab terrorist organizations in Israel.

HinduUnity.org advertises itself as the official site of Bajrang Dal, a fundamentalist Hindu movement in India...The Web site also goes by the name Soldiers of Hindutva, a term that refers to the primacy of Hindu religion and culture. Mr. Vyasmaan said the Web site has 500 people affiliated with it.

The Jews in Brooklyn, meanwhile, are followers of Rabbi Meir David Kahane, the assassinated Israeli politician whose teachings advocated the expulsion from Israel of all Arabs, most of whom are Muslim.

Their headquarters in Brooklyn was raided in January by the F.B.I. as part of a federal investigation into their association with two Kahane political parties that were banned in Israel and designated as terrorist organizations by the State Department. The designations followed a series of violent attacks on Palestinians, including the killing in 1994 of 29 Muslims in the West Bank by Baruch Goldstein, a Kahane adherent who was born in Brooklyn.

Central to the Kahane message is that all Jews belong in Israel, making any Jew in the United States a temporary resident. Many of the group's biggest supporters shuttle back and forth between Israel and New York, keeping one foot in each country.""

The problem is always the same: when secularists attack Kahane and his budies, the bogey of anti-semitism is raised; when Jihadis are criticised, the bogey of Islamophobia is raised; critique of Hindutva is interpreted as anti-Hinduism, of the evangelistas as anti-Christian etc. etc. Not to deny that there isn't rampant anti-semitism, Islamophobia, anti-Hinduism etc. Of course there is! Thats why, religion needs to be respected but only as long as it stays within the pyjamas of its followers. All explanations of prophecy, non-prophecy, whatever, is all very good, but please don't ram it down the throat of others who want to be left alone. Otherwise, do we really want to re-live the nightmares of medeival Europe or medieval any society? Only a firm policy of secularism that does not denigrate religion but just clips it wings enough such that it does not make life hell on earth for others will allow freedom for everyone, religious, non-religious, martians and even for Rabbi Kahane, may G-d redeem his blood. Another spray of commonsense. Just doing my job!

#100
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 20, 2008
12:37 AM

Mr. Commonsense -

What you write is not common sense, it is calumny. Rav Kahane is dead, killed by an Arab who was acquitted of the murder. His son and daughter and law were murdered in a CIA style hit coordinated between the Shaba"k and CIA trained Arab hit-men.

May G-d redeem their blood.

But you continue to crap on his ideas.

Most of his solutions are also dead - simply because the state that he sought to guide to a better path is dying of its own corruption, killing itself under the heel of foreign masters who have bought out its leaders.

But Rav Kahane's better ideas are not dead.

The Arabs will leave here because they will be driven out of this country in a war that they themselves have started. When it seems that they are winning and raining missiles of death upon us is when our people will rise and drive out the Arabs from this land, at last recognizing them as the enemies they are.

But it will not happen because the State of Israel mandates this, but because the State will collapse under fire, and unrestrained by the State, Jews in this country will do what they perceive they need to do to survive.

So Rav Kahane's policies of expelling hostile Arabs will occur because they will be finally recognized as the necessary tools for survival that they are.

Thus intermarriage with the enemy will also cease.

As for those Jews who condemn Kahane and his ideas, they will be a big part of the reason the State falls, and when the State falls, they will fall with it. Many of them will be dragged through the street like the filthy traitorous curs they are.

But these are not your problems, they are my problems.

And I am not attempting to force my ideas down your throat.

Islam and Christianity and Hinduism all have a history of violence and vile treatment of their neighbors that we do not share - yet.

But we are being pushed to the wall. At some point, we will push back, and when we do, Arab blood will flow along with ours, and the secular elite that persecutes us will flee for safety from our vengeful hands.

You do not know what Israelis are like when they have been roused to murder and massacre seeking justice from an unjust world. I do.

Every massacre of Arabs that you and others habitually whine about will seem like nothing compared to what is coming. Take note.

You have been warned....

#101
temporal
URL
January 20, 2008
12:48 AM

You have been warned....

can i have some of what you are smoking bud?

;)

ps: my god is better than yours -- mine smiles!

#102
Anamika
January 20, 2008
12:55 AM

Wonder which of the two - Arabs or Jews - are better at blowing everyone to kingdom come? Seems like they will be fighting each other in the afterlife too - kind of makes me glad that as a Hindu, I am destined for the Semitic religions' hell - at least it will be more peaceful. :-)

Besides, I am soooo happy that we dont have this messianic vision delusion. At least when I do bhang - back in Shivaji ki nagari - all I see is the tandava, complete with the final steps of renewal and recreation.

Cheers all....

#103
temporal
URL
January 20, 2008
01:03 AM

behna problem is not arab-israeli only

if things flare...with the 300+ fire crackers the non-NPT signatory has...

the RoW would be dead or would glow in the dark

hum tou doobaiN gay sanam tujh ko bhee....

#104
kela
January 20, 2008
01:05 AM

Jews cut Christian throats-http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47043

#105
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 20, 2008
01:05 AM

Temporal,

I'm smokin' Reality. Reality can be scary shit - especially when it's up close and personal - and REAL.

G-d is always smiling. He's not in trouble. We are....

#106
smallsquirrel
January 20, 2008
01:22 AM

can we please stop all this "my god is better than your god" SHITE?

it's really quite horrible.

In the end the joke will be on all of us when we learn there is one god, it's all the same, and we truly fucked up the rest of it. all of us.

#107
temporal
URL
January 20, 2008
01:24 AM

ruvy:

the inmates in an asylum are real but reality eludes them which is why they are incarcerated

and what is reincarnation?

it is ethnic cleansing suggested by delusional occupiers

(hitler reincarnated)

;)

#108
Anamika
January 20, 2008
01:34 AM

You know what bhai - bhang is definitely better. :-)

On the other hand, glow-in-the-dark may be a better (faster/cheaper) look than the pricy, designer melted ice-cap one.

I think a more appropriate proverb is - chit bhi meri, pat bhi meri aur anta mere baap ka. ;-)

#109
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 20, 2008
02:04 AM


In the end the joke will be on all of us when we learn there is one god, it's all the same, and we truly fucked up the rest of it. all of us.

Funny, smallsquirrel, how your views on ultimate reality are almost exactly the same as mine....

#110
temporal
URL
January 20, 2008
02:27 AM

ruvy:

if there is one god in the end as you say

then

how can she tell you to occupy?

and

tell the occupied to launch missiles at you?

#111
commonsense
January 20, 2008
02:28 AM

Mr. Ruvy from Jerusalem wrote":

""The Arabs will leave here because they will be driven out of this country in a war that they themselves have started. When it seems that they are winning and raining missiles of death upon us is when our people will rise and drive out the Arabs from this land, at last recognizing them as the enemies they are.

But it will not happen because the State of Israel mandates this, but because the State will collapse under fire, and unrestrained by the State, Jews in this country will do what they perceive they need to do to survive.

So Rav Kahane's policies of expelling hostile Arabs will occur because they will be finally recognized as the necessary tools for survival that they are.

Thus intermarriage with the enemy will also cease.

As for those Jews who condemn Kahane and his ideas, they will be a big part of the reason the State falls, and when the State falls, they will fall with it. Many of them will be dragged through the street like the filthy traitorous curs they are.""

Thank you for your candid statement of who you are and what you believe in! This is not for you, but for others who think that everytime there is a suspected anti-Semitic statment, Mr. Ruvy needs to be emailed and alerted. With such friends of the wonderful and resilient Jewish people, who needs enemies?? A new standard has been set here, in writing. Any Jew, secular or orthodox, who dares question Rav Kahane, may G-d redeem his blood, is branded as an anti-semite!

Once you have stopped foaming and frothing, a straigh question, not a curveball: Mr. Ruvy, do you think that the Palestinians exist or are they simply Arabs, with no claim to a nation or a homeland? This is a Yes or No question, that can be answered without reference to some covenants that you might believe in and sing about all morning. Do you think we Indians are morons and will lap up your stories? Another yes or no question: Was Rav Kahane and his racist Kach party banned from the Israeli Kenesset or not? Was this a step taken by the Israel Jews, including all shades of secular, non-secular, orthodox Jews or not? Are all Israeli Jews, except the followers (mostly in Brooklyn New York) of Rav Kahane, may G-d redeem his blood, anti-Semitic? Do you really believe that you can settle all these issues simply by wielding Uzis?? Do you really think all Indians have pawned their brains on this topic? Please don't bother answering since the your response, quoted above, speaks volumes (Hint: it was simply a rhetorical question; I am not interested in any answers because I do believe in having an open mind on any issue, but not such an open mind that most of my brains fall out. Your blind adherence to Rav Kahane, somebody a majority of Jews hate as a racist, speaks more for what you stand or sit for, rather than your answer that I am sure you will cobble up since you have a template ready)

#112
commonsense
January 20, 2008
02:33 AM

Ruvy wrote:

""But these are not your problems, they are my problems.

And I am not attempting to force my ideas down your throat.""

Really? Not a problem for anyone except for the followers of racist Kahane, may G-d redeem his blood? So why are you so intent on expelling the Palestinians, the term you dare not use? Is it at least their problem? Convenient: it is "our problem", so please stay out of it and let us deal with it, wielding Uzis? If that is the case, why are you interested in "my" desi problems? I don't care and I don't literally mean it when I say that, but I am sure you do not recognise the contradiction you are mired in. There is no such thing as "my" versus "your" problem, unless you are really speaking of onanism (hint: it means masturbation in street language).

#113
smallsquirrel
January 20, 2008
02:35 AM

ruvy... we might agree on the end state, but I think we have a fundamental disagreement on the means to that end.

(says the secular Jew who doesn't agree with Kahane and now is waiting to be dragged through the street)

I don't wish any more arguments about God with anyone. This really makes me sad (not same as "hurting my sentiments" LOL) as I think most of us are so much better than this and we're getting trapped in some petty mud-slinging that is not helping get anyone anywhere....

#114
commonsense
January 20, 2008
02:39 AM

Ruvy wrote:

""But Rav Kahane's better ideas are not dead.""

Oh, really, so he did have some ideas that were not so good? You mean he wasn't exactly infallible? Would his vocal and rabid support of the Vietnam War be one example, or am I just heaping yet another calumny on Rav Kahane, may G-d redeem his blood!

#115
commonsense
January 20, 2008
02:45 AM

Mr. Ruvy the "warner" writes:

""Every massacre of Arabs that you and others habitually whine about will seem like nothing compared to what is coming. Take note. You have been warned....""

Excellent parting shot! I am peeing in my pants and shitting green. Mr. Ruvy, I suggest you get an advance copy of this book, not yet published, but soon to be out, authored by an observant Israeli Jew who, no doubt you will readily label as an anti-Semite.

Cuckooland, illustrated by Shulamith bar Itzhak (yet unpublished).


#116
commonsense
January 20, 2008
02:49 AM

Mr. Ruvy,

""Thus intermarriage with the enemy will also cease.""

Will this apply retroactively to my wife who is "Jewish" ie. secular, so not in your register of humans worth bothering about? Or on the contrary, your arch-enemy, a traitor if ever there was one? Am I the enemy or she is?

I feel like popping the inevitable, cliched question: Are you for real? But, I digress.

Please enlighten us more about your other prophesies...

#117
commonsense
January 20, 2008
02:52 AM

Temporal wrote:

""You have been warned....

can i have some of what you are smoking bud?

;)

ps: my god is better than yours -- mine smiles""

Wickedly badmash, you temporal..only temporary though! You have been warned! (he he he! not sure though whether to laugh or to cry...I will chose the former since my non-God/G-d smiles too!)

#118
commonsese
January 20, 2008
03:07 AM

Mr Ruvy wrote:

""Take note.

You have been warned....""

Ye baat awashya note kee jaye!

Indeed. (Ruvy, nothing secret here, since, as a total mongrel, intermarriage with "the enemy" and then some, proud of it, there is no such thing as "my business", unless I head for the toilet. However, before I digress too much, the non-Hebrew phrase above simply means, "Please do ensur that his warning is duly taken note of...

#119
commonsense
January 20, 2008
03:10 AM

Ruvy:

""Reality can be scary shit - especially when it's up close and personal - and REAL.""

yep, I'd shitting green, scary shit indeed when I think about your understanding of reality..

#120
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 20, 2008
03:13 AM

Mr. "commonsense",

More non-sense and calumny.

You make a couple of serious errors in your reasoning. And your errors are due to your ignorance and stupidity, and closed-mindedness, not to any brains having fallen out.

You assume that the Israeli Knesset is the fount of sovereignty because the law says it is supposed to be, so you assume that the Knesset was acting on behalf of the Israeli people when it banned a party that would have expanded from one seat to fifteen.

Just as theory differs from reality in Indian politics, theory differs from reality in Israeli politics.

Reality. The State of Israel is run by secular elites which get smaller and smaller yearly.

There is a basic fear in the secular elites who ru(i)n Israel of religious Jews and the religious vision of a nation redeemed. A nation redeemed would no longer need the secular elites to lead it. So the secular elites do what they can to suppress the religious vision for this country.

Rav Kahane was one of the very few religious leaders here who could not be bought off by the secular elites in Israel. So, the secular elites used their muscle to kill off his political party, to ban his future candidacy, and finally to kill him, using an Arab as their tool. That's why the killer got found innocent of the charges of murder. The secular elites in this country worked in cahoots with their allies in New York to see to it that the Arab would get off. That this same prick of an Arab later attempted to blow up the World Trade Center only came out later.

Truth is, I am not a blind follower of The late Rav. But he warned when he was alive that "either you vote for me or you will get Arafat." After his death, the Israelis indeed discovered that they had gotten Arafat and his murderers at the hands of their own traitorous regime, and they saw the price being paid. Buses being blown to bits, and a government that callously called his victims "sacrifices for peace".

That is why all over this country, you see written on the walls kahána tzadák - Kahane was right. He was. You do not have to recognize this and you can continue to heap calumny upon a great man. That is your problem. But I live here. And I know the price of living here. You don't. The depth of your ignorance of what conditions are actually like in this country is encyclopedic. Even Anamika, who disagrees with me a great deal, knows better than you what conditions are like here, though her knowledge is second hand.

As for Rav Kahane and the Jewish Defense League, i was a follower for a time, because his teachings liberated me from being a bent backed Yid like the people you quote who condemn Rav Kahane, and who quail in fear of the Christians and Moslems who hate us.

I'll explain this concept to you in a few simple sentences.

The problem of the Jew-hater is that he hates Jews. It is our job to see to it that it remains that way, and to educate the Jew-hater not to attempt to actualize his hatred. That way we Jews do not get hurt and can walk with straight backs wherever we live.

The basic concept is simple. He who raises his hand to greet you, greet him first: he who raises his hand to kill you, kill him first.

If the price to the Jew-hater is that his skull or neck or back is broken, this is just a "fee" for learning. The bastard should be grateful that he is still alive.

Applications: first application is to move to Israel, where there had been a possibility of safety. If you are unwilling to move to Israel, you physically attack Jew-haters in their lairs, beating them, crippling them, and killing them if necessary.

In a country like Britain or France, this takes guts, because the press will be automatically against you - Juden waffen - Jews with weapons, is a forbidden concept to them. In addition foreign police who willingly tolerate Moslem no-go zones and gang rapes of non-Moslem women, will not tolerate Jews actually defending themselves in a militant fashion. What Moslem would go to France or England to do shit work, if he has to worry about Jews killing him?

#121
commonsense
January 20, 2008
03:19 AM

Ruvy wrote:

""Islam and Christianity and Hinduism all have a history of violence and vile treatment of their neighbors that we do not share - yet.""

Man! I thought you were simply delusional!! I shudder at the thought of the "yet" but know that almost a 100% of your Jewish community is not with you on this one! Good luck my friend. The silver lining as I said before: rabid fundamentalists are made, not born. You mentioned that you were secular earlier, although you did seek out the Bagel Beach in Florida; you still have a chance to submit to reality of a global, multireligous, incorrigibly mongrel, plural world whose global citizens are sick of being sodomized (in the non-homophobic sense of the term) by pathetic "purifiers" be they racist Jihadists, Kahane-supporters, the Sangh Parivars, whatever, whoever!

#122
commonsense
January 20, 2008
03:25 AM

Temporal wrote:

""the inmates in an asylum are real but reality eludes them which is why they are incarcerated

and what is reincarnation?

it is ethnic cleansing suggested by delusional occupiers

(hitler reincarnated)

;)""

Total badmash you temporal! But you too have been warned!! Your badmashi is limited by its temporality...Rav Kahane's interesting kahaanees will finally redeem you one day.

#123
commonsense
January 20, 2008
03:29 AM

Anamika:

""Wonder which of the two - Arabs or Jews - are better at blowing everyone to kingdom come? Seems like they will be fighting each other in the afterlife too - kind of makes me glad that as a Hindu, I am destined for the Semitic religions' hell - at least it will be more peaceful. :-)""

Anamika, I'm neither Arab nor Jew, just a crackpot secularist trying to break the impasse between "mine is bigger than yours" kind of pre-pubescent games and trying to pin down lies. I'm not sure why whatever I post now is in bold typface. Possibly something do do with the testosterone level of Mr. Ruvy, but I'm not entirely sure!

#124
commonsense
January 20, 2008
03:34 AM

Ruvy wrote:

""You assume that the Israeli Knesset is the fount of sovereignty because the law says it is supposed to be..."

Since I am talking about this world, a world of written rules not revealed truths, particularly truths that were revealed to Rav Kahane and transmitted to his followers, I would have to admit that I do think of the Israeli Kenesset as the "fount of sovereignity". Sorry, but this is just commonsense, unless you believe in parallel worlds, as I am sure you do. But since I teach quantum mechanics, I am not sure you can go too far on that angle with me...

#125
commonsense
January 20, 2008
03:40 AM

Ruvy wrote;

""Reality. The State of Israel is run by secular elites which get smaller and smaller yearly.""

True! Agree with you! Credit due where where it is due! Reality #1 however kicks in: because the secular Jews are tired of the Uzi-infused shit. Reality #2: Like it or not, you are surrounded by A-rabs that your racist party and supporters despise. You may kick them out of Israel and the illegal occupied territories, but you cannot send them to the moon. They will be your neighbours, albeit not very friendly ones. Wake up, and smell the hummus my friend. Just a silly joke my friend, on account of much of my so-called brains having fallen out due to my assinine attempts at reasoning with you! But then, I am eternally optmistic about the powers of reasoning, even with unreasonable folks. Just commonsense!

#126
commonsense
January 20, 2008
03:46 AM

Ruvy:

""And I know the price of living here. You don't. The depth of your ignorance of what conditions are actually like in this country is encyclopedic.""

Really! And who told you I have never lived in Israel? I don't recall ever having said that. And how, pray, may G-d redeem Rave Kahane's blood, is that relevant or irrelvant. Are we back to the "indigenous" vs. "exogenous" distinction that the Hindutvadis love and you are trying, vainly, to exploit? Is that why you are investing so much energy on DC? You really must have a very low opinion of us Indians. And that, coming form an Indian who always made light of others claiming their "sentiments have been hurt" is quite something...

#127
commonsense
January 20, 2008
03:55 AM

Ruvy wrote:

""If the price to the Jew-hater is that his skull or neck or back is broken, this is just a "fee" for learning. The bastard should be grateful that he is still alive.""

Excellent logic my friend! Another yes or no question. Actually a couple, if you will kindly allow më:

1. Abraham H. Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith: Is he a Jew lover or Jew hater (I cringe to to use these expression, but would you personally break his skull, back and neck or would you sub-contract it out to some of your Brooklyn friends?)

2. Are 90% of Israeli Jews, "jew lovers" or "jew haters"? (To use your unfortunate phrase). If the latter, are you preparing to break their skulls, backs and necks, in addition to doing the same for the non-Palestinian A-RABS??

#128
commonsense
January 20, 2008
04:06 AM

And now Mr. Ruvy, now that you have been totally exposed, please flood us again with pages and pages of irrelevant stuff about how the whole world, including the majority of observant Jews are victimising you and your prophet, may G-D redeem his blood. In your hubris, you I'm sure thought you were dealing with an amateur. This is not unusual, it is re-run, ad nauseum, of colonial and ex-colonial types, telling us what we shoud or should not believe in. If you are so set no demarcating what is your business that should never be interfered by others, the non-Jews, the secular Jews, the observant but non-Kahane Jews, commonsense tells me that you should never step out of the laxman rekha that you have drawn for yourself. But of course, like any hypocrite, you want to have your roti/chapaati/nan, and eat it too.

#129
commonsense
January 20, 2008
04:11 AM

Ruvy wrote:

""If the price to the Jew-hater is that his skull or neck or back is broken, this is just a "fee" for learning. The bastard should be grateful that he is still alive.""

When can I look forward to my fee for inflicting some commonsense on you? I am indeed grateful that I am still alive and I have nothing against "bastards" since I am one and proud of it. Mongrels like me do not distinguish between "bastards" and so-called non-bastards...

#130
commonsense
January 20, 2008
04:12 AM

Ruvy wrote:

""If the price to the Jew-hater is that his skull or neck or back is broken, this is just a "fee" for learning. The bastard should be grateful that he is still alive.""

When can I look forward to my fee for inflicting some commonsense on you? I am indeed grateful that I am still alive and I have nothing against "bastards" since I am one and proud of it. Mongrels like me do not distinguish between "bastards" and so-called non-bastards...

#131
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 20, 2008
04:12 AM

I seem to have hit a few nerves here....

Let's touch upon them gently, so as not to hurt too much.

Ruvy wrote:

""Islam and Christianity and Hinduism all have a history of violence and vile treatment of their neighbors that we do not share - yet.""

Man! I thought you were simply delusional!! I shudder at the thought of the "yet" but know that almost a 100% of your Jewish community is not with you on this one!


I've seen what happens when secular Israelis run riot in righteous anger, so I can forecast this with relative accuracy.

When the buildings in Tel Aviv, Rana'ana, Netanya, Haifa, and Ashkelon are in flames from a missile assault from Arab countries and Iran, the natives of the city will arise, realizing that they indeed have no safety from the Arab enemy, and they will attack and massacre them. That is what it will take to get them that angry. And because they will react from a deep anger, they will drag the dogs who have persecuted them and who made them for suckers in the streets after they kill them. It will be very ugly. And thousands of Arabs will die. But that is what will happen.

Are you paying attention, smallsquirrel? The people who will be doing the massacring and killing the leaders will be secular Jews!


""Thus intermarriage with the enemy will also cease.""

Will this apply retroactively to my wife who is "Jewish" ie. secular, so not in your register of humans worth bothering about? Or on the contrary, your arch-enemy, a traitor if ever there was one? Am I the enemy or she is?


A guy marries a Jewish girl, and reads that "intermarriage with the enemy will cease". Are you a terrorist when you are not teaching quantum mechanics, "commonsense"? I'm not talking about exploding your nonsense all over a keyboard (talk about blowing your wad and onanism!), I'm talking about blowing up bombs that kill kids on buses. You do not strike me as the terrorist type....

I would have to admit that I do think of the Israeli Knesset as the "fount of sovereignty".

Until the summer of 2005, I was able to delude myself with the same impression. In the summer of 2005, I saw proof that the Knesset was a mere "talking shop" and the fount of nothing more than thievery and lies, as Arkady Gaydamak has told the bastards to their faces. When the government expelled 10,000 citizens from their homes, and made them homeless, jobless, and refugees inside their own country, I saw just how much the Knesset means in Israel. It means virtually nothing.

That is the real world. And it sickens me and saddens me more than I care to say.

#132
commonsense
January 20, 2008
04:13 AM

Chution kee kamee naheen hai ghalib
Ek dhoondon, hazaaar miltey hain

#133
commonsense
January 20, 2008
04:24 AM

Chution kee kamee naheen hai ghalib
Ek dhoondon, hazaaar miltey hain


PS: I should know, since like a total chutia, since I insist on engaging with Mr. Ruvy, despite the bhang laced banarsi paan he has been ingesting all day.

(Mr. Ruvy: Perhaps your allies in India, with whom you find commoncause in demonising "Muslims"(they are not A_RABS nor EYERAQEES, may G-d redeem their blood when they die while bloodletting for their paymasters, will translate the verse above for you.)

Good night my friend. Sleep well! I am not in the business of warning anyone. Peace be on you!

If you cannot go to sleep, when it is time to sleep, do try to read: _Namaste Sharon_ by Vijay Prashad. It will keep you awake for another week.

Adios!

#134
commonsense
January 20, 2008
04:27 AM

Ruvy wrote:

""You do not strike me as the terrorist type....""

Thank non-God for small mercies. But then, I don't recall having ever stricken you. Excuse me, did I break your concentration?? (Shameless plagiarism from the movie _Pulp Fiction_... da best, reel best!)

#135
kela
January 20, 2008
04:30 AM

The secular rulers of Israel have been elected by the people just like in India.
Anamika is a bigot.People like her are fortunately a minority in India

#136
commonsense
January 20, 2008
04:33 AM

Commonsense asked Mr. Ruvy:

""Once you have stopped foaming and frothing, a straigh question, not a curveball: Mr. Ruvy, do you think that the Palestinians exist or are they simply Arabs, with no claim to a nation or a homeland? This is a Yes or No question, that can be answered without reference to some covenants that you might believe in and sing about all morning. Do you think we Indians are morons and will lap up your stories?""

For the record, Mr. Ruvy has dodged this question. Ye baat note kee jaye!

#137
kela
January 20, 2008
04:36 AM

The fee for stealing palestinian land is to have missiles landing on the heads of their enemies

#138
commonsense
January 20, 2008
04:44 AM

Ruvy wrote:

""You do not know what Israelis are like when they have been roused to murder and massacre seeking justice from an unjust world. I do.""

Trust me, I know! Caveat: how dare you implicate all Israelis, when you really mean the inhabitants of Rabbi Kahane's, may G-d redeem his blood, cuckooland? Who gave you the right to speak for all Israeli Jews? Ah, it's my fault for raising these silly objections when my friend Ruvy has ingested "Khai key paan banarasi waala..." (marijuana laced paan...I'm kind enough to translate this for you my friend, without any "fee"")

#139
commonsense
January 20, 2008
04:46 AM

Comes a time when it's time, even for me, to take a break!

#140
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 20, 2008
04:50 AM

Taken from my article at Desicritics, Ruminations on the Destiny of the People of Israel:


1. Zionist movement: a largely secular movement to bring Jews home to the Land of Israel.

2. State of Israel: the political expression of the Zionist movement.

3. Children of Israel: the descendants of Jacob (Israel), son of Isaac, son of Abraham, son of TeraH, a high priest in Sumer, in the city of Ur, who left for the city of Paran when the king he served died. After a period of time, Abraham, commanded by G-d, continued westwards to the Land of Canaan.

4. People of Israel (Hebrews): the descendants of the sons of Israel, who were divided into a number of tribes.

5. Land of Israel: territory designated by the Torah [BaMidbár/Numbers 34:1-15] or the Tana"kh [Ezekiel 47:3-23, 48:1-35] as the territory that G-d has given the People of Israel.

6. Kingdom of Israel: This has three definitions.

a) the Kingdom of Sha'úl (Saul), David and Shlómo (Solomon) which extended as far as the Euphrates River at the height of its power;

b) the secessionist kingdom of ten tribes that separated from the tribes of Yehudá (Judah) and Shim'ón after the death of Shlómo (Solomon) and accession to the throne of his son ReHavám. With time, this kingdom weakened and the territory of the tribe of Benyamín became part of the southern kingdom of Yehudá (Judah);

c) in messianic times, the Kingdom of Israel will be the entity that succeeds the State of Israel and any other entity that rules here.

7. Jews: Originally, the descendants (tribe) of Yehudá, one of the sons of Israel. With time, the tribe of Shim'on merged into the tribe of Yehudá, and with time, the tribe of Benyamín merged as well [Scroll of Esther 2: 5-6]. At the time of its fall, the Kingdom of Yehudá represented the tribes of Yehudá, Shim'on, Benyamin and those people of the tribe of Leví who lived within the borders of the kingdom. The descendants of these people are the Jews mentioned in definition #1.

a) According to Halakhá (normative Jewish law), a Jew is the child of a Jewish mother, or a convert to the religion who accepts the entire corpus of 613 commandments of the Torah. If male, the convert needs to be circumcised. All converts are required to immerse in flowing water or a mikvá (ritual bath). According to the rules of the Rabbinate, the official Jewish religious body in Israel, the forgoing definition is the only definition of who is a Jew.

b) According to the ministries of interior and of absorption of the State of Israel, the forgoing definition is the primary definition of who is a Jew. But these ministries will accept other individuals who have Jewish grandparents as Jews. It should be noted that the Israel High Court of Justice has ruled that non-normative (i.e. non-"Orthodox") conversions from overseas will be accepted as well. But at the same time, the ministry of the interior has refused to accept some converts, even "Orthodox" ones, for automatic citizenship, requiring a rather arbitrary waiting period and naturalization process.

8. Israeli: This has two definitions.

a) one who lives within the State of Israel, or who has Israeli citizenship and who is subject to its jurisdiction;

b) an artificial cultural construct, a creation of the Zionist movement, an attempt to create a new Jew, one uninfluenced by the rabbis and the decadent Jewish culture of Eastern Europe.

9. Palestine: This has three definitions.

a) The territory of the Land of Israel under the name given it by the Romans in 100 CE or so, Syria Palestina. This name was given the territory to insult the Jewish (Judean) inhabitants of the country, as the name Palestine recalls the name Philistine, an Aegean people that fled to this country, settling in the vicinity of what are now the cities of Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon and Gath, and who were traditional enemies and persecutors of the Children of Israel;

b) the territory covering both sides of the Jordan River granted to the Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland by the League of Nations as a "Mandate", with the stated purpose of creating within it a "Jewish national homeland." The British separated most of this territory from its direct rule and administered it as the Emirate of Transjordan with the son of Feisal, Sherif of Mecca and Medina, Abdallah, as Emir. Under international law, the Palestine Mandate was the successor state to the Ottoman Empire where it had jurisdiction. The successor states to the Palestine Mandate are the State of Israel and the Kingdom of Jordan;

c) the political construct of Arab terrorist organizations who wish to end the State of Israel, and to end the Jewish presence in this region.

10. Palestinian: This has two definitions.

a) A resident of the territory of Mandate Palestine, an individual under its legal jurisdiction. It should be noted here that for the entire period of British rule, the Arabs resident in Mandate Palestine did not self identify as "Palestinians," but as members of the Arab "Umma;"

b) an artificial cultural construct of the terrorist movements representing the Arab refugees who left the Palestine Mandate during the war that broke out in 1947-49. A great deal of "academic" work was done by the Husseini family to construct a history for this non-existent nationality. Additional work was done by discredited scholars such as Edward Saďd, who was shown by Justus Weiner to have lied about basic facts about his own life. Only after the founding of the Palestine Liberation organization, did the Arabs claim to be "Palestinian."

Now to clarify my own biases.

I am a Jew. I am a citizen of the State of Israel, and therefore an Israeli under definition "8a" above. But when I express my own opinions, I am not talking as an Israeli, under the artificial construct of "8b" above. I speak as a Jew, and as a member of one of the tribes of Israel.

As for me, I believe that the State of Israel is collapsing of its own corruption and lack of purpose, as it has already served its purpose. But it will be replaced, not by a "Palestine," but by a Jewish entity far different from what we have seen, and one that is able to cope with the coming reunification of Yehudá (the Jews) with the brother tribes that appeared lost to history. Nothing is lost under the sight of G-d. I refer you all to the Book of Ezekiel [Ezekiel 36:6-38, 37:1-28].

There is one further thing I must make absolutely clear here. In writing this, I'm not dealing with the "Arab-Israeli crisis," the "Middle East crisis" or any other of the cataracts that stand in the way of free flow of thought, ideas, people and commerce in this part of the world. I'm not writing about peace, I'm not writing about war. I'm not writing about making peace or making war. Those issues are not for this article. I'm writing solely about the destiny of my people, the People of Israel.

#141
Anamika
January 20, 2008
08:23 AM

Ruvy: "Thus intermarriage with the enemy will also cease."

So what does this mean? If a non-Jew is married to a Jew, will this end? Will the non-Jew part of the couple be dragged through the streets and killed? Will the non-Jews be herded into camps - like Gaza - and slowly starved/tortured/killed?

Children born to "enemy" men and Jewish women shall - as per succession laws - be raised as Jews but what happens to the children of Jewish men who married "enemy" women? Will they be slaughtered too?

The above is totally rhetorical so dont bother answering. The answers are all in the Old Testament. For those on this board who spend a lot of time talking about how the Koran is violent and hateful, you might want to try reading the Old Testament with its overdose of testosterone, women-hating, rape, incest, murder and genocide.

#142
Anamika
January 20, 2008
08:30 AM

CS: I agree that it is a bit odd for editors to email him on "anti-Semitic" comments on the board because he actually hurts that cause more than helping it.

Given that Indian contact with Jews is historically very different with that of Europeans and most Indians know little about this particular minority, having Ruvy intervene - by editorial invitation - on "anti-Semitism" really does not limit/erase/stop anti-Jewish hate speech.

Also - glad you figured out that Ruvy has a very fanatic side - a Jewish Osama bin Laden/Mullah Omar if you wish which is one reason few people engage with him on Jewish/Israel questions. It has been well exposed before. But ab chhod de - kya fayda zabardasti mooh lagne se?

PS: "Anti-Semitic" is in quotes because if its limited to Jews, what do we call the hatred of other Semites. Oh wait, just remembered, thats just "birth pangs of a new Middle East" (quoting Madame Condi Rice). Lol...

#143
Irfan
January 20, 2008
09:30 AM

Ruvy #72 "I received an e-mail from Aaman commenting on possible Jew hatred on the comment thread, and was asked to make comment."

AAman I will give you my email-id , please email me also when you think there is possible Muslim hatred on any thread...... or you take sides?
I supposed the editors of DC are neutral...

#144
kela
January 20, 2008
12:32 PM

The Bigot Anamika wants us to believe that the Bible and christians and are all evil but obviously most people in India think the opposite and many are converting.Hinduism is just a modern term for the evil and discriminatory brahminism

#145
temporal
URL
January 20, 2008
02:06 PM

ruvy:

re #107:

from the perspective of ethnic cleansing ---what is the difference between hitler and kahane?

and PLEASE in your reply instead of rambling on and cut-n-paste jobs just give the links to be brief

#146
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 20, 2008
02:28 PM

Temporal, I do not need links or cut and paste jobs to answer you.

Kahane's proposals: expulsion of hostile Arabs. Encouraging other Arabs to leave with adequate compensation, so that they would be able to make a decent living in whatever country they settled in.

Total number of people to be killed: zero.

Hitler's proposals and actions: expropriation, expulsion and extermination. Hitler's SS expelled some Jews to the British Mandate, figuring that they would kill them later when they had conquered the country.

Total number of people killed: 11 million plus (if Anamika wants to say 12 million, I will not argue with her), including over six million Jews.

Compared to the total number of Hindus and Moslems killed during the partition of India, and subsequent riots on both sides of the border in the last sixty years, zero is a tiny number....

#147
temporal
URL
January 20, 2008
02:31 PM

ruvy:

ethnic cleansing it is!

something hitler tried

something kahane/supporters want to

#148
Morris
January 20, 2008
02:59 PM

Mr.Ruvy

Your vision of future is very frightening. I have to agree that if it reaches that level, Israeles will prevail. But I believe they can avoid getting there. It is upto of Israel. Because they are by far the stronger.

Initially, Palestinians or say Arabs felt that they were unjustly driven out of their land to create Israel. It does not matter whether they were right or wrong but all this trouble started from there. But having won 1967 war Israel became driver of subsquent events. Please don't misunderstand me and assume that I am defending palestinians. There is a lot we can find wrong with them. In any dispute it is the stronger party that can manage to resolve it. In my opinion Israel has not been fair and just. They can't keep building new sttlements and continue talking about peace. They have to be not only fair and just but also appear to so. They have to create win win situation. They came very close with Clinton's help. It is upto Israel. I think they will do it. I am optimistic.

#149
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 20, 2008
03:02 PM

ethnic cleansing it is!

something hitler tried

something kahane/supporters want to


Before you dare open your mouth to me about ethnic cleansing, Temporal, check the records of India and Pakistan - or even how Canada has treated its tribal bands.

You have a lot of blood and manure to clean off your hands and your conscience before you can even afford to open your mouth.

#150
temporal
URL
January 20, 2008
03:20 PM

ruvy

re: ethnic cleansing

you are in no position to dare or threaten me;)

stick to ethnic cleansing

YOU brought in kahane bin hitler bin osama here...so .... do not deflect...calm down if you can and either deal with THIS subject or go to sleep and return refreshed

#151
commonsense
January 20, 2008
03:23 PM

Anamika wrote:

""It has been well exposed before. But ab chhod de - kya fayda zabardasti mooh lagne se? ""

Thanks for this sage advice! As I am new to this community, I had trouble ingesting, let alone digesting whatever it was that was emanating from Ruvy's keyboard. And I inadvertently re-invented the wheel, not knowing he has been exposed before. Hopefully the texture and design of this wheel is slightly different though! I will really follow your advice since your phrase "kya fayda zabardasti mooh lagney se" really hit the spot! This is the vernacular I imbibed as a kid :)

Not to be defensive here, but seriously folks, this was no troll-mission and yes, I had no intention of insulting anybody's religion, sentiments or whatever, my rhetorical overkill notwithstanding.

For those of you who are Indian history buffs (and who isn't??), some of my views are influenced by something I read in one of Kwame Anthony Appiah's recent books. Appiah, who is currently Laurance S. Rockefeller University Professor Of Philosophy and the University Center for Human Values at Princeton. He writes at one point that, while growing up in Ghana, his father kept reminding him that whatever he did in life, did not matter. As long he took care to leave every place a slightly better place than it initially was. I know the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but this is what I was trying to do at DC, minus the ego that such a project implies. Where is the Indian history angle here? Appiah is also the grandson of Sir Stafford Cripps, yes, of the Cripps mission!

Thanks Anamika for pointing me in the right direction vis-a-vis this "debate"! I will go for a long walk now on this crisp, unbelievably cold winter day.




#152
commonsense
January 20, 2008
03:44 PM

ethnic cleansing it is!

something hitler tried

something kahane/supporters want to
Ruvy my gentle friend wrote:

""Before you dare open your mouth to me about ethnic cleansing, Temporal, check the records of India and Pakistan - or even how Canada has treated its tribal bands.

You have a lot of blood and manure to clean off your hands and your conscience before you can even afford to open your mouth.""

There must be a template or manual on diversionary tactics for that all fundamentalists get as standard issue. The syntax is so predictable: when your opponent asks about elbows, try to divert the discussion towards arses...

#153
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 20, 2008
04:07 PM

Temporal,

You cannot figure out the difference between a scholar of law who seeks to steer his country in a proper path and a murderer on one hand (Osama bin Laden), and a propagator of genocide on the other (Adolf Hitler).

Perhaps it is because you think we Jews do not deserve to live in our homeland. Settler state shmettler state!! Canada is a settler state that exterminated its tribal bands. And you are a proud resident of a country that practiced genocide on its native inhabitants. By living there, you benefit from that genocide, whether you took part in it or not. That is the settler state argument, and if it applies to anybody, it most assuredly applies to you.

Take a bow.

So screw ethnic cleansing. Let's talk about genocide.

You've implied, if not stated openly that I believe in the very genocide you benefit from, living in the Great White North. You've implied, if not openly stated that I'm some kind of Nazi because I dare to defend my homeland, and my people for having returned to it. You've implied, if not openly stated that we Jews are thieves of our own land! Speak for yourself. Check out which Indian band's land your town and your home lies upon. From which Ojibwe tribe did the good Canadians steal the land you are living on? You and the rest of the Canadians owe them, and you should get the hell off their land. You and the rest of the Canadians owe the Ojibwe reparations for the genocide you committed against them, or in your case, for the genocide which you benefited from.

When you have answers to that, then you can talk to me. Until then, I have nothing to say to a hypocrite like you.

And when you wash the blood off of your hands and your conscience, then you can talk to me.

Not before.

#154
temporal
URL
January 20, 2008
04:25 PM

ruvy:

nice try to deflect again...but it cuts no dice with me however much you would like to squirm out of it;)

YOU

introduced kahane...so i will stay focused on ethnic cleansing as advocated by kahane bin osama bin hitler

#155
Anamika
January 20, 2008
04:48 PM

Ruvy: "And when you wash the blood off of your hands and your conscience, then you can talk to me."

Actually, no Ruvy. We wont be talking even then because YOU will not have washed the blood off your hands. Especially because we in India at least know there is blood to be washed and atoned for.

You just hide it in your Holocaust-and-the-world-hates-us-victim-syndrome, divine bullshit and pretend that it is ketchup rather than blood of Palestinian children. WE WONT BE TALKING TO GENOCIDAL MANIACS LIKE YOU OR HITLER ANY TIME IN THE FUTURE!

NEWS FLASH for those who have some moral compass: BBC reports that Gaza has been plunged into darkness thanks to Israel blocking fuel supplies to its sole power plant. Meanwhile, Israeli Occupation Forces continue to massacre people with bombs and the innocent unborn children in miscarriages caused by ultra-sonic weaponry. Auschwitz anyone?

Actually, on second thoughts, not Auschwitz. The Israeli killings/propaganda machines are far more sophisticated than that of Nazis. Back then, supposedly the world powers "didn't know." This time, they watch, applaud and provide more weapons and money to Israel (3 billion per annum from US alone) to continue the genocide.




#156
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 20, 2008
05:12 PM

Your comments do not cut any ice with me at all, Anamika. Daily, we have Qassam missiles coming in from Gaza. The Arabs want war, and they are fighting a war.

I do not support the regime in power in Israel, but I will tell you this much. My solution to Gaza would be simple: cut off the water, cut off the juice, cut off the food, and cut off the medical supplies. No military raids except those absolutely necessary to accomplish the four goals above.

That way Jewish soldiers lives are not risked at all, and people like you can't whine about Auschwitz, though you will anyway.

That is called making war hell. Since the Arabs in Gaza want war, we should give them the most hellish kind of war possible without
risking the lives of our soldiers.

When terrorists have to drink seawater, when the residents of Gaza are fighting over stale fish heads, when there is only darkness at night, no refrigeration, no functioning hospitals, no medicine for diabetics or epileptics or heart patients, THEN we'll see how many Qassams fly over the border at us.

These Arabs in Gaza may be of far firmer stuff than we in Israel imagine. But there is no reason to risk our children (I'm thinking of my son, dear) on killing them off if there are simpler methods and ways to do it....

I suppose you'll find some long word or some damned UN treaty to quote saying we can't do such things, but the truth is I don't give a damn what the world thinks of us. Most of the world wants us dead anyway. So, fuck 'em all. They can burn in hell.

And Anamika, just because you are a Hindu would never cause me to condemn you to burn in any hell. But if you sympathize with all those who want us dead, then, for my money the gates of the hottest hell are yours to cross....

#157
temporal
URL
January 20, 2008
05:31 PM

ruvy:

for ethnic cleansing your solution:

My solution to Gaza would be simple: cut off the water, cut off the juice, cut off the food, and cut off the medical supplies.

the nazis did that in auschwitz too...in addition they cut off AIR as well...

same end... different paths

israel is the inheritor of the nazi heritage

sadly, playing holocaust victims cuts no ice



#158
Anamika
January 20, 2008
06:38 PM

So Ruvy, you finished building those ovens for little Palestinian children yet? Are they still of the Nazi design or - given the oil/gas prices these days - have you resorted to nuclear power?

#159
Aaman
URL
January 20, 2008
08:01 PM

This is getting way personal, we won't edit given your collective awareness of the rules as well as your presumed intellect. Move on, and remember, we're all settlers.

#160
Anamika
January 20, 2008
08:23 PM

Aaman, thanks for the reminder. I will not apologize or take back the words given their context.

Moreover, I don't remember my ancestors displacing an entire population (ethnic cleansing), imprisoning whoever remained (concentration camps) and killing everyone in sight (genocide). My ancestors have not establish a settler colony by displacing the local inhabitants (and yes, lets take this to proper historic sources). So this "we are all settlers" is really the worst form of moral hypocrisy on your part.

There was an interesting piece in the Pioneer the other day that Western guilt/ethics should not be universalised over the world. And that means if Hitler was wrong, so is Kahane and Sharon. If a Kahane/Sharon's killings are considered "defensive" action, then lets judge Hitler by the same standards.

You cannot spew the kind of fanatic hate-filled threats as Ruvy has above and expect to be dealt with "sensitively." Once someone makes a case for genocide, I think it is fair to deal with it with gloves off.

I do have a question though for you (not as a DC editor but discussant): We wouldn't make similar concessions to those who identify themselves as Muslims and call for deaths for infidels, or as Christians trying to kill Muslims, or indeed "Hindus" calling for expulsion/kiling of Muslim or Christian minorities in India. So why this "special" dispension/standard for Israeli/Zionist/Jews?


#161
kerty
January 20, 2008
08:24 PM

Anamika #158

That is not fair characterization. When at war, nations have to do terrible things to bring peace and security to their people. When bombs are dropped, do you think no civilians or children are killed? When terrorists engage in suicide bombing, are no innocent people killed? In civil wars, do both sides shake hands and have peaceful dialogues? Its about which side can inflict maximum hardships and mayhems to bring the other side to surrender and sign on dotted line. Sure wars of any kind are terrible. But whose obligation is it to avoid them? The obligation not to have civil war or war of any kind does not rest on Israel alone. Jewish people have demonstrated their willingness and ability to live peacefully among non-jewish countries for centuries. Show me one nation where Islamists have demonstrated their willingness or ability to co-live in peace where they are in majority or in minority - they consider it their religious duty to engage in perpetual jehad againt non-Islamists. Islamists are never at peace. Just look at at all the hot spots of the world. Israel has to live surrounded by such hostile Islamic nations and deal with jehadi hostility on daily basis - it is easy to pointificate Israel from afar as to what Israel should do or should not do. Israel does what it must do to ensure its national security. I challenge you to go live in any ghetto of Pakistan or Bangladesh and try to practice/express your religious faith, and see how long you can survive there.

#162
Anamika
January 20, 2008
08:45 PM

Kerty - you not only speak from a position of prejudice against Muslims but also an ignorance of Jewish and European histories. So first of all I suggest you read up on those.

Judaism has been on the receiving end of injustice not because it is inherently BETTER than Islam or Christianity but simply because it has lacked the numerical/military/political strength of its two brethren religions (and yes there are loads of reasons for this lack of power which we can discuss once you've read up on it a bit - at least more than Ruvy's version of messianic/fanatic/victim history.

Yes, wars happen and terrible things happen in wars. My problem is that when wars are carried out in the name of a god, somehow those terrible things are considered justifiable. This is an issue with ALL religions but that does not make it acceptable or morally correct.

My logic is simple: Let us apply the SAME standards to ALL crimes regardless of WHO carries them out. And by that standard, those of Ruvy's ilk (and most Zionists) are as much as genocidal fanatics as Hitler's maniacs. Just calling a spade by its given name.




#163
commonsense
January 20, 2008
09:29 PM

So, will everything that Mr. Ruvy is writing/spewing forth, be sent to him for check if there are no anti-Semitic sentiments? Anti-Semitic, as Anamika has reminded us, in the broader sense of the term, not the way in which it has been opportunistically colonized by the likes of Kahane and his master's voice...

#164
kerty
January 20, 2008
11:38 PM

Anamika..

What did I say that made it 'position of prejudice'? At what point do conclusions and assessment based on reality and facts become prejudices? And why do you think that what you are saying here is not position of prejudices? That what you say is educated conclusions but what I countered is ignorant prejudices? You may summarily brush aside any reasoned disagreements to your gross characterizations as prejudices and thereby choose not deal with them, but it will make your positions irrelevant and obstacles to any dialog or solutions that can bring peace there. Until one accepts Israel's right to exist on its own terms, one can not pretend to be a neutral party outraged by all those casualties of the conflict - because it is such hostile positions that have fueled and maintained the state of war and bears the responsibility no less.

I need not read up anything more when I am on firm ground when I say that Jews have not been involved in any wars or conflicts of religions in Europe or else where, even when all other religions were fighting it out since medieval era. I am also on firm ground when I say that record of Jews is far superior to Islam and Xianity when it comes to wars in the name of God. I am also on firm ground when I say Islamists are involved in conflicts in the name of Islam in most hotspots of the world, including with Israel. That is not a prejudice. To put on blinkers and not see realities for what they are, is a luxury that chattering class can have, and those who have to deal with such realities will never make sense to such chattering class.

I also find the relativism and moral equivalency of 'all religions are same, all religions are equally bad, all religions teach same things' very ignorant and offensive. I also consider the quest for 'Same Standards' for all situations to be extension of same reprehensible relativism and moral equivalency. In a just wars of self-defense, violence committed by both sides can not be morally equivalent. When the cause is just, violence committed for such cause remains just. Otherwise, there is no justification for state to punish any citizen, no justification for police to fire on rioters, no justification for army to drop bombs on any human beings.

#165
kerty
January 20, 2008
11:39 PM

Anamika..

It is my contention that at the root of all conflicts and wars is statism. It is the single most destructive and despotic concept ever invented by mankind. Show me a geo-political entity married to statism that does not sit on huge arsenal of weapons and sea of army, ready to use them on any perceived or actual challenge to it's hegemony. Single most common constant in any wars and all wars throughout history has been statism - quest for it, expansion of it, overthrow of it, preservation of it. When statism mixes with ideologies, it has unleashed wars, when statism mixes with religion, it has unleashed wars. When statism has been devoid of religion or ideology(statism driven by personalities), it has unleashed wars. Statism is the only true totalitarian concept that claims everybody to be its subject by birth and demand absolute obedience to its diccats and dictates. Its historical baggage of crimes would make ills of all religions put together look puny. If there is any unmitigated evil on this earth, it is statism. But just as religions can not be abolished but merely tamed by keeping it away from statism, statism too can not be abolished but merely tamed - but nobody knows how. Hindus tried to decentralzied it and made it ceremonial, but that did not prevent wars and being warred upon. How to separate statism from people, from the business of governing and being governed - that is a question I would like to pose.

#166
kerty
January 21, 2008
03:26 AM

Anamika..

I would like to pose one more question.

Why is that any act or ommision of individuals is immediately taken to gender, caste, religion, religious leaders level to shift accountability and blame at those levels?

By the same token, why not elevate the accountability and blame to ideology, ideology bearers, state, constitution?

If Godse killed Gandhi, not only he individually and personally, but his ideology, the organizations that subscribe to that ideology, office bearers and leaders who subscribe to that ideology, modern day avatars of organizations and political parties that subscribe to that ideology, everybody by wholesale are tagged as killers of Gandhi. Perfect example of elevating the crime of individuals to highest level of accountability. We can see the same pattern about gujarat riots, where entire state administration, head of state, his party, all bearers and organizations who carry his ideology are tagged with blame and sought to be held accountable.

Religions take great deal of pains to point out contrary teachings but they still are blamed for acts of individuals and groups and rulers who did terrible things to deal with terrible situations.

Nothing wrong with taking the accountability at highest level. But similar accountability is lacking on the part of statism and ideologies of statism. There, accountability is pushed down to individual level, lowest levels, evaded to scape-goats. Accountability for acts and ommissions at the highest levels are evaded. When rape or murder takes place, why not hold statism accountable? Why not hold bearers of ruling ideology accountable? why not hold constitution and democracy accountable? Why not blame individualism and bearer of this ideology accountable for crimes of individuals? Why different set of rules for religions and another set of rules for ideologies of statism? Until level playing field and same set of standards is applied to religion and statism, this blame game will remain an exercise of evading accountability and diverting the people's attention from real culprits to scape-goats.

#167
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 21, 2008
08:25 AM

Aaman,

My only answer here goes to you. We are not all settlers. Here Anamika is right. My father fled persecution and starvation and moved to a settler colony just south of Canada. While he never murdered any native Americans, nor enslaved any blacks, he had the sense to understand that he had benefited from black slavery and the extermination of the native Americans at the hands of the whites.

He made sure to teach me that and to act accordingly with respect to blacks - he never knew any native Americans. I left that settler colony and returned to my ancestral homeland - just as you did.

I will not answer hypocrites and liars. And at least two of the commenters who have spoken are just that.

There is a painful ignorance on the part of a number of commenters - people who have chosen to buy into the Arab line of bullshit and who state that I and my people are the inheritors of the völkish shit propounded by the deutscher schwein who murdered my people.

Time will teach them the errors of their ways. But I'll not bother. They are not worth engagement. No liar or hypocrite is ever worth my time. And I stick to my word, Aaman.

mávet l'aravím, mávet lagoyím sh'rotzím laharóg otánu v'mávet l'm'shakrím sh'tomkhim otám.

I'll let those of you who have the ability or desire to translate my ancestral language figure that out for yourselves.

#168
Amit Patel
January 21, 2008
08:59 AM

commonsense,
Some where on DC you wrote about
http://www.hinduunity.org
What was that?

#169
commonsenseforall
January 21, 2008
10:09 AM

Amit,

Yes, http://www.hinduunity.org is the VHP/Bajrang Dal's site set up by NRI's. It was banned for a while by the US govt. because of its content. During this period it was hosted on another site of Kahane's Jewish defence league. What I'd posted was a cut/past report on it in NY times. Here it is again:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980DEEDF173FF931A35755C0A9679C8B63

www.hinduunity.org

#170
commonsenseforall
January 21, 2008
10:49 AM

Ruvy (I have been generous enough to translate almost everything I wrote in Hindi or Urdu. I extend my generosity further to translate your English passages too)

Ruvy wrote:

""My father fled persecution and starvation and moved to a settler colony just south of Canada...""

In other words: In other words, I fled to the US, but from Europe/Russia/Ukraine, but not from Palestine, even though I cannot get myself to say it. As I said earlier, I look like a Ukrainian, but my genetic markers tell me that I am not Ukrainian and of course, not American. Even my great grandfather's ancestors have no memory of ever living in Canaan or Palestine, but who needs that when I have the covenant and when Rabbi Kahane reminded me that we are simply temporary residents of Brooklyn.

""I left that settler colony and returned to my ancestral homeland - just as you did.""

In other words: I claim this "ancestral homeland" based on a covenant or two. Returnign to my alleged "ancestral lands" is not enough. This two-state solution misses this delicate point. I also want to ethnically cleanse my "ancestral homeland" of people who have actually lived there for as far as memory can be stretched back. I do this by claiming that they are actually Jordanians. I do this by pointing out that there are actually a lot of Palestians already there as refugees. A few more won't make a difference. Secondly, the country Jordan was created for them but they refuse to listen. Finally, there are so many Ae-Rab countries out there, who cares where they go as long as they stop polluting my "ancestral land" as defined not by any experience of my ancestors but by the Covenant and by some alleles in my genetic markers, despite my Ukrainian appearance. Ah yes, I did take the trouble to learn Hebrew along the way...It is theoretically impossible for me to be discriminatory against any people since (1) My father told me not to discriminate against blacks or natives (2) we have suffered the mother of all discriminations in history ; ergo, anybody who thinks that Rav Kahane was discriminatory, especially those "Yids" who pretend to be Jews, are by definition, hypocrites and liars.

""I will not answer hypocrites and liars.""

In other words: In fact, with the revealed truth on my side, and with the famous legal scholar from New York University, Rabbi Kahane on my side, I really don't need to answer even non-hypocrites and non-liars, since not only do I know the truth, I am the truth. The world will find out soon, the time is near...you will all find out and relearn human history.


""There is a painful ignorance on the part of a number of commenters - people who have chosen to buy into the Arab line of bullshit""

In other words: I will make it more painful for these ignoramuses when we are redeemed by truth. As for the Ae-Rab line of bullshit, don't you folks realize that they are simply incapable of anything but bullshit? They do not have those genetic markers that is essential for the direct transmission and reception of unadulterated truth..modern science, albeit conducted by some Yids in NY and Harvard (but that has to do with MY people and I will have to deal with it, so I don't want to bore you with that...I'll just bore you with what I want to bore you with..)

In other words: This is just real commmonsense. I have no idea why that so-called nonsense, pretending to be Commonsense etc. etc. Temporal, as the name says it all, is of no permanent consequence.

#171
commonsense
January 21, 2008
10:57 AM

Amit,

www.hinduunity.org

is still co-hosted by and linked to:

http://www.kahane.org

Although for the latter, you need to generate a password etc. to get in (only for true believers you see!)

The hinduunity site has an interesting "black list" of people described as enemies of Hinduism (not Hindutva of course). In addition to the usual suspects, much of the venom is reserved for the US academics Vijay Prashad and Amitava Kumar (also a novelist; but he married a pakistani woman too!); And the writer Pankaj Mishra (but not because he wrote a nice book on Buddha)

#172
commonsense
January 21, 2008
11:17 AM

Kerty,

Your diversionary tactics are cute! Inflict a few more pages on us please...

#173
temporal
URL
January 21, 2008
12:03 PM

media watch

there is an ongoing action to starve out, subdue and or kill an entire race...this is one step...let us see the media headlines:

Food aid to Gaza could be suspended within days, UN agency warns

UN says Gaza facing food shortage

since this would let me put in more urls i will be posting the others separately

#174
temporal
URL
January 21, 2008
12:04 PM

media watch

there is an ongoing action to starve out, subdue and or kill an entire race...this is one step...let us see the media headlines:

Power and fuel cuts bite in Gaza

Gaza suffers under Israeli blockade


These Arabs in Gaza may be of far firmer stuff than we in Israel imagine. But there is no reason to risk our children (I'm thinking of my son, dear) on killing them off if there are simpler methods and ways to do it....ruvy the resident ethnic cleanser

....there is more to follow

#175
temporal
URL
January 21, 2008
12:10 PM

media watch

there is an ongoing action to starve out, subdue and or kill an entire race...this is one step...let us see the media headlines:

Gaza power plant stops production

Gaza in darkness as border closed

#176
kerty
January 21, 2008
12:14 PM

Common

Deal with arguments presented, unless you prefer diversionary tactics which is fine by me. My last posts were in response to Anamika's quest for having 'same standards.

#177
Amit Patel
January 21, 2008
12:24 PM

Kerty # 166,
"Religions take great deal of pains to point out contrary teachings but they still are blamed for acts of individuals and groups and rulers who did terrible things to deal with terrible situations.".

Well I am sorry to see that you are wearing shoe that fits. No one is blaming Any Religion. One must differentiate between true religious people and people who hijack the Religion for their inferior political intent.
Riots in Gujarat: Who /what is responsible for what happened in Sabarmati express that day is a big question. Politicians should have waited for conclusive report by Gujarat police department before opening their mouth. At the end who is responsible for law and order in state. Ground reality is some thing like this: It was announced from Godhara by Modi that train incident was act of terrorism. Then when Guju people went on rampage he did not control them.(Evan tried to control) If he wanted to he could have easily done that, CRP or BSF was not called upon for 48 hrs. And all these blames are targeted for Modi and not for All Hindus. On one should be "thekedar" of Hindus.
I am Hindu too and please leave my Hinduism alone.

#178
Amit Patel
January 21, 2008
12:33 PM

One more thing, winning election does not make any crime / blame go away. It only proves that one is pouular.

#179
temporal
URL
January 21, 2008
12:43 PM

media watch

there is an ongoing action to starve out, subdue and or kill an entire race...this is one step...let us see the media headlines:

MIDEAST: No Rights, Little Mercy


Israeli blockade deepens hardship in Gaza


#180
Amit Patel
January 21, 2008
12:46 PM

But winning election has achieved one thing:
Good hearted Gujaraties (Most of us Gujus are good hearted) are now scared to death to speak up against regime, and afraid of social boycott.

#181
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 21, 2008
12:46 PM

It is not bad enough that this site has liars and hypocrites; apparently we have to suffer the false news brought to us by such "objective" news sources as the CBC, the BBC, CNN and al-jazeera.

Let's try a little truth watch instead of "media" watching.

IDF Says Gaza is Faking a Crisis

by Gil Ronen

(IsraelNN.com) The news coming out of Gaza depicts the Arab populace living in darkness and cold and blaming Israel for closing down major crossings through which fuel arrives to Gaza's power plants. Reporters even claim that the dead can no longer be buried properly because there are no shrouds, and that bodies are being wrapped in flags instead.

The IDF says, however, that this is media spin; a deliberate manipulation by the Hamas government to make Israel look as bad as possible.

For the full article, connect to the link above.

IDF official rejects claims of humanitarian crisis in Gaza
Reports of crisis in Strip nothing but media spin created and promoted by Hamas, says military source
Hanan Greenberg YNET shed: 01.20.08, 20:16 / Israel News



"Even today, Israel is behind 70% of the power supply to Gaza, and therefore any claim to the effect that there are electricity problems in Gaza is unfounded," he stated. "These are media spins by interested parties. We did not cut back on electricity and don't intend to do so at this point.

"The Palestinians are in fact the ones who shut down power for several hours a day in a bid to create a crisis. At the moment, their fuel supply has not run out yet. If there is shortage of fuel oil at the power plants, they should ask themselves what happened to the supply they received."

According to Israel, a recent shipment of 10,000 heads of cattle into the Strip, coupled with the existing stocks of poultry, fruits and vegetables
and the smuggling of food supplies from Egypt should be enough to sustain the local population for weeks.

Consequently, Israel said it did not plan to ease the siege on Gaza, except for urgent humanitarian needs.

--------------------------------------------------

There will be more lies from the "mainstream liars" provided to you by hypocrites and liars at this site. Rest assured. The old Nazi trick of repeating lies is commonly by the Arabs and therefore copied here.

These reports are as reliable as the ones that create hagiographia for the little suburban bitch who stupidly got herself killed trying to block a soldier from ddoing his job, and as reliable as the reports alleging that Mohamed al-Dura was killed by the IDF, a lie propagated by French TV2, and as reliable as Christian claims that we Jews poisoned the wells during the Black Plague and used Christian children for matzot

#182
Amit Patel
January 21, 2008
12:53 PM

Ruvy,
tora man darpan kehlaye

#183
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 21, 2008
12:57 PM

Finally, let's take a look at the true heirs of the Jew-hatred sown by the Christians in Europe, reaped by the Nazis and spread with their tender loving care
The Warped Mirror: Hitler's heirs

An excerpt of Küntzel's book available at the New York Times website introduces the first chapter on "The Muslim Brotherhood and Palestine". As Goldberg notes in his accompanying review, Küntzel "makes a bold and consequential argument: the dissemination of European models of anti-Semitism among Muslims was not haphazard, but an actual project of the Nazi Party, meant to turn Muslims against Jews and Zionism. He says that in the years before World War II, two Muslim leaders in particular willingly and knowingly carried Nazi ideology directly to the Muslim masses. They were Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem, and the Egyptian proto-Islamist Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood."

Küntzel claims that in the 1930s, the Muslim Brotherhood "was subsidized with German funds" which enabled the group "to set up a printing plant with 24 employees and use the most up-to-date propaganda methods." According to Küntzel the Muslim Brotherhood also played an important role as a distributor of Arabic translations of "Mein Kampf" and the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", thus helping to whip up anti-Zionist hostility across the Arab world with Nazi methods and ideology; and Küntzel argues that the effects of this campaign continue to reverberate in the region until today.

It is of course precisely this argument that violates a central taboo of current debates about the Middle East, and it will be interesting to see whether Küntzel's book will change this in any way. For the time being there is no doubt that many will strongly disagree with Goldberg's conclusion that "Küntzel is right to state that we are witnessing a terrible explosion of anti-Jewish hatred in the Middle East, and he is right to be shocked. His invaluable contribution, in fact, is his capacity to be shocked, by the rhetoric of hate and by its consequences." But all too many are willing to dismiss the rhetoric of hate so common in the Middle East, and all too many deny that there is reason to worry about the consequences.

And when Goldberg recalls in this context that the former Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi once told him that "the question is not what the Germans did to the Jews, but what the Jews did to the Germans" it is all too obvious that once again we live in a time that has no problem to explain all the evils of the world with "what the Jews did".

The full article can be found at the link....

TRUTH, NOT LIES

#184
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 21, 2008
01:02 PM

Repeated for you benefit, Amit....

mávet l'aravím, mávet lagoyím sh'rotzím laharóg otánu v'mávet l'm'shakrím sh'tomkhim otám.

#185
temporal
URL
January 21, 2008
01:11 PM

and for the tunnel visioned bigots this from the israeli media:

Barak agrees to allow fuel, medicine into Gaza

By Barak Ravid, Avi Issacharoff, Amos Harel, Yuval Azoulay and Mijal Grinberg, Haaretz Correspondents and News Agencies


Defense Minister Ehud Barak has agreed to allow minimal shipments of diesel fuel and medical supples into the Gaza Strip starting on Tuesday, according to an official ministry statement.

Gaza City's power plant, which depends on fuel funded by the European Union, shut down its two working turbines on Sunday, plunging much of Gaza City into darkness, after Israel last week closed border crossings to all goods, including humanitarian aid, due to intensive Qassam rocket attacks on the western Negev.

The Defense Ministry said Israel will also allow in diesel fuel for generators as well as gas used for cooking. A Foreign Ministry spokesman said restrictions would remain in place on petrol for cars.

#186
commonsense
January 21, 2008
01:28 PM

Kerty's rambling message can be reduced to a couple of points he makes. Since this discussion deals with an issue that Mr. Ruvy raised about the genius of Rabbi Kahane and his solutions for Israel, I have no choice but to re-divert the discussion back to that issue:

1. Kerty wrote: ""Why is that any act or ommision of individuals is immediately taken to gender, caste, religion, religious leaders level to shift accountability and blame at those levels?""

If you have been reading the exchange here, Mr. Ruvy, eats, drinks and sleeps the ideas, organization and the proposed solutions offered by Rabbi Kahane and his Kach party. Your question is thus an attempt at diversion that is derived from the standard issue for would-be diverters. ie. to spell it out again: when the discussion is about elbows, slip in a remark about arses, such that the asses will not be able to distinguish between an elbow and an arse. Good attempt Kerty, but we are the "desicritics", and our critical impulses are well honed. Please don't bother reading European history yet. Just re-read what Mr. Ruvey has been writing first. If you pass that step, you can move on to the next one...

2. Kerty wrote: ""It is my contention that at the root of all conflicts and wars is statism....from the business of governing and being governed - that is a question I would like to pose"

Refer to my explanation above: ie. when the discussion is about elblows, pose a question about an arse...

3. Kerty wrote: ""In a just wars of self-defense, violence committed by both sides can not be morally equivalent. When the cause is just, violence committed for such cause remains just.""

"Just wars" is the key diversionary concept here. By these definition, all wars are just wars, not wars (pun intended); since no modern nation-state has a Department of Offense, but all have Departments of Defense, hence there cannot be any unjust wars. Hence all wars in this century have been just wars, including of course the so-called pre-emptive attack on Eye-Rack.

3. And now to Mr. Ruvy, using the same manual of dirty diversionary tactics:

When the topic of discussion is the one you yourself insisted upon (Kahane's kahanees, no Palestinians etc.) gets too hot to handle, insist on calling everyone liars, hypocrites etc. People will get defensive...sometimes that may not work. Then try to change the topic to the genocide of other people such as the native Indians. Make it more convincing by talking about specific groups such as the Ojibwe. Some people will buy it and begin to apologize, even though they had nothing to do with it. The manual however, has not been updated for use on "desicritics".

4. Mr. Ruvy, may write like a hypocrite, behave like a hypocrite, sleep like a hypocrite, but don't be fooled by this posturing because as the discussion has amply demonstrated, he is a hypocrite.

Since Kerty has jumped in to lead the discussion away from the hot seat Mr. Ruvy finds himself in, all we need now are: Man Singh with his homilies about dacoits raiding his village and Gill recalling is days in Punjab to divert the issue further. However, Mr. Ruvy having admitted that he is dedicated to supporting Rabbi Kahane's vision (hint: when getting visions, rush to a doctor first), any further discussion is pointless. Although watching him squirm out of this one is an interesting experience since he feels he can insult the intelligence of humans who have no such sectarian, racist visions to defend. Just commonsense.

#187
commonsense
January 21, 2008
01:34 PM

Anamika wrote:

""I think a more appropriate proverb is - chit bhi meri, pat bhi meri aur anta mere baap ka. ;-)"

Ha Ha Ha! Anamika, you really take me back to my childhood! Thanks for reminding me of such gems!! If I could remember more of these, I would not have to indulge in my insufferable verbosity!!

Mr. Ruvy, as a non-sectarian believer in pluralism as opposed to sectarian truth serums and visions, the above simply means:

"Heads I win, tails you lose"; the other part may not make sense to you, but literally it means "and the all the flour that is milled in the process of flipping this coin, is of course, all mine too!"

#188
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 21, 2008
01:37 PM

Commonsense for all? No. Bullshit for all - NON-STOP

#189
temporal
URL
January 21, 2008
01:37 PM

and here is more from israeli sources for the tunnel-visioned bigot coloniser

and here is a classic doublespeak from JP....from one end of the mouth it speaks of 'allowing' fuel shipment and from the other it says it is 'providing' fuel

Barak allows diesel fuel, medical equipment into Gaza Strip
By JPOST.COM STAFF AND YAAKOV KATZ


Following a security assessment made Monday evening, Defense Minister Ehud Barak decided to ease the siege on Gaza and to allow medical supplies, medicine and a minimal amount of diesel fuel for the Gaza's power plant into the Strip.

Gaza blackout a Hamas deception

Israeli officials claimed Monday that the Gaza blackout was deliberately instigated by Hamas, in a bid to present the appearance of a humanitarian crisis.

According to the IDF, Israel was still providing 75 percent of Gaza's electricity, while Egypt provided an additional 5%. Israel said that it was not interested in a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, and would "act quickly" to prevent it.


#190
commonsense
January 21, 2008
01:41 PM

Ruvy wrote:

""It is not bad enough that this site has liars and hypocrites; apparently we have to suffer the false news brought to us by such "objective" news sources as the CBC, the BBC, CNN and al-jazeera""

Since we have no direct access to your version of G-D, nor to Rabbi Kahane's kahanees, we will make do with the existing media sources, even though nobody claims they do not have their biases. Instead of highlighting what the CBC, BBC etc. are saying (pointless gesture since we can read them directly without intervention by contractors/thekedaars like you), why don't you instead enlighten us about what your direct line with Rabbi Kahane tells you about what is happening and what will (not might) happen next? Is this the begining of the final conflagration you predicted earlier while heaping abuse on all your fellow Jewish community who do not agree with you? Give us a hint, perhaps just executive summaries of what your unadulaterated truth news service is telling you?

#191
commonsense
January 21, 2008
01:43 PM

Ruvy:

""Commonsense for all? No. Bullshit for all - NON-STOP""

As good a sign as any, that MR. Ruvy is not as hermetically sealed in his own revealed truth as he claims to be. He also reads what bullshitters like me write. I wonder why when you are so truth infused...if truth be told...but I digress...

#192
commonsense
January 21, 2008
01:47 PM

Mr. Ruvy wrote (in a fit of desperation since reality is deviating from his revelations)

""Let's try a little truth watch instead of "media" watching.

IDF Says Gaza is Faking a Crisis

by Gil Ronen

(IsraelNN.com)""

I notice that you are now turning to media to contradict other media reports; why pray would you do that when you could directly from the heavens; we would be spared of any suspense about what might or might not happen next. Just a commonsensical question, given your direct line to revealed truth.

Oh, I get it? You don't want sacred revealed truth to be contaminated by liars, hypocrites and schwein hunts like us? Makes sense to me!

#193
commonsense
January 21, 2008
01:56 PM

Mr. Ruvy wrote:

""There will be more lies from the "mainstream liars" provided to you by hypocrites and liars at this site. Rest assured. The old Nazi trick of repeating lies is commonly by the Arabs and therefore copied here.""

Desperation alert! Back to robotic forumlaic assertions; as in, CNN, BBC, CBC etc. are all providing the Arab viewpoint...

Please Mr. Ruvy, tell us what your oracles fortell? You were pretty big on predictions earlier. What happened? They failed to predict this particular development in Gaza? Do they not know the future up in your version of heaven?

#194
commonsense
January 21, 2008
02:00 PM

Mr. Ruvy wrote:

""An excerpt of Küntzel's book available at the New York Times website introduces the first chapter on "The Muslim Brotherhood and Palestine".""

So now, you too need books when covenants and the kahanees (stories/fables) of Rabbi Kahane were enough earlier? What has changed...ah, the tragic developments in Gaza??? Stewing in his own juices, I have no wish to make Mr. Ruvy squirm any further, but aadat sey majboor...commonsense aaadat that is...

#195
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 21, 2008
02:02 PM

Let's see if you well honed Desi intellectuals can figure this basic proposition out. A para-military force bombards your towns day in day out. They fire rockets attempting to destroy your towns.

Now are you going to follow Gandhiji and respond with non-violence? Or are you going to go in and kill the bastards. Let's make this more realistic. Every single day, Pakistani guerrillas bombard Kashmir from their positions behind the Pakistani side of the Line of Control. Is the Indian Army just going to sit on its ass reading from Gandhi's texts? Or are they going to respond with the force they believe necessary to end the Pakistani rocket bombardment?

Now based on the hypocritical whining about what is going on in Gaza, you finely honed Desi intellectuals will say that the Indian Army should sit on its ass reading Gandhi's texts. In fact, given the degree of hypocrisy and lying I see from "bullshitforall", anamika and temporal, I expect to see that precise answer, even if they really believe that the Indian Army should exterminate the Pakistanis on the other side of the border, or perhaps, the Pakistanis should launch a full scale offensive to finally get rid of Indian control of Kashmir.

Or, like crabs, they will sidestep the question.

But the issue that both Rav Kahane, may G-d redeem his blood (and his reputation from the likes of the scum I see here) and the IDF are dealing with are the issue of Jews defending themselves against Arab hostility, both physical and in the form of their constant taqqiya.

All the Arabs in Gaza have to do to end the blockade is stop trying to kill us - stop firing rockets at us. None of you finely honed Desi intellectuals (with one or two intelligent exceptions) have even thought of that point. The little wimps in the Israeli government would be overjoyed at that - so much so, that they would wet their underwear.

The fact that we Jews dare defend ourselves against Arab terror has you all with your underwear and panties bunched up, screaming Nazis like so many chimps chittering in a zoo.

I guess you finely honed Desi intellectuals regret that Hitler didn't kill us all. Your words indicate that.

#196
temporal
URL
January 21, 2008
02:05 PM

In two weeks time, the Winograd Commission will publish its final report on Lebanon War II, and Olmert may find himself in an impossible position. Demonstrators in the street will demand his dismissal. The Labor Party leader, Ehud Barak, will face the demand to resign, as he has promised, on the day the report is issued, and thus bring down the government.

In such a situation, a politician can do only one of two things: start a war or run towards peace.Uri Avnery - Jan 18

#197
temporal
URL
January 21, 2008
02:09 PM

digression:

after failing to attract the sympathy vote the coloniser is trying to deflect from the ethnic cleansing issue

;)

#198
temporal
URL
January 21, 2008
02:10 PM

digression:

after failing to attract the sympathy vote the coloniser is trying to deflect from the ethnic cleansing issue

;)

#199
Man Singh
URL
January 21, 2008
02:17 PM

The author has made certain fundamental mistakes in his attempts to equate the violence of all religions. Just like a gang of dacoits and village youth beating them back, both are violent but one violence is `against the civilisation' while other is `to save the civilisation'.

Comparing Krishna's advise to Arjuna and jehadis inspiration from Quran is absolutely absurd.

Krisha never asked Arjuna to kill his relatives for Kingdom or enforce his way of worship. Krishna's criteria was the restoration of dignity of women who was insulted in teh parlimanent of kauravas and many great grand fathers, Gurus and priests kept quite.

Therefore it was a war for righterousness.

Oppoiste to it Mohammed's raids on carvans were very clearly for forcing them to follow his way of worship and inspired by religion.

Islam will die if it abandons violence.

here is the sample letter of Mohammed he use to write to contemporary chiefs to terrorises them to convert.

THE MESSAGE OF THE PROPHET TO THE OMANI PEOPLE
Here is the text of the message the Prophet Mohammad sent to the Julanda brothers through the intermediary of his Messengers, 'Amr bin al-'As al-Sahmi and Abu Zaid al-Ansari.
"Peace be upon the one who follows the right path! I call you to Islam. Accept my call, and you shall be unharmed. I am God's Messenger to mankind, and the word shall be carried out upon the miscreants. If, therefore, you recognize Islam, I shall bestow power upon you. But if you refuse to accept Islam, your power shall vanish, my horses shall camp on the expanse of your territory and my prophecy shall prevail in your kingdom."
[Photograph of the Arabic original (sizes 27K or 772K) and the English text (31K) as it is on display at Sohar Fort, Sultanate of Oman.]
The historian al-Baladhuri, writing barely two and half centuries after the coming of the Messengers to Sohar, described the event in these terms:
"When the people of Oman shall have responded to the evidence of truth and shall have promised obedience to God and His prophet, then Amr, their Amir, and Abu Zayid would be made responsible for conducting the prayers, for conveying Islam to the people and for teaching them the Quran and the precepts of the religion."
________________________________________
Muslims in the West often claim that Islam stands for "no compulsion in religion". Is not the sunna of their own prophet contradicting them?
________________________________________

Another threatening letter of Mohammed to sent to the prince of the Ayla tribe near Damascus during the expedition of Tabuk read:

"To John ibn Ru'ba and the chief of Ayla. Peace be upon you. .. I will not fight you until I have written thus unto you. Believe or else pay tribute (Jizyah). ...Ye know the tribute. If ye desire security by sea and by land, obey Allah and his apostle.... But if ye oppose and displease them, I will accept nothing from you until I have fought against you and taken captive your little ones and slain the elder; for I am the apostle of Allah in truth...." [Muir, p402] and Medina some of them by force and other by threat of military aggression. A letter sent to the prince of the Ayla tribe read:

"To John ibn Ru'ba and the chief of Ayla. Peace be upon you. .. I will not fight you until I have written thus unto you. Believe or else pay tribute (Jizyah). ...Ye know the tribute. If ye desire security by sea and by land, obey Allah and his apostle.... But if ye oppose and displease them, I will accept nothing from you until I have fought against you and taken captive your little ones and slain the elder; for I am the apostle of Allah in truth...." [William Muir, The Life of Mahomet , p402]

Second issue of cast violence. Those who have read Hindu scriptures even once know pretty well that :

`Varna' has been originated from root `Vrantu'means that is `chosing'. Just like Doctors prescribes a medicine to pationt after duly investigating allergy history, reaction to medicine or menstuation cycle of women, and in many cases gives different medicines to different patients for the same desease, saints used to prescribe different spritual path for diferent people depending upon their temperament and intellectual level.

The real culprit in opression and exploitation and violence against Dalits are landlords appointed by foreign invaders in last 1300 years and many Asuras in previous eras. Such Asuras and landlords in association with greedy priests caused this nonsense and Hinduism and its teachings has nothing to do with it.

There are evidence produced by a person no lesser then Dr Ambedkar that before 6th century, untouchability never existed in India though impurity did. Impurity is purely based on cleanliness and nobody can opoose it.

Dr Amebedkar refers `kadambari' written by Baanbhatt where a `Chandal' princess and her pet parrot `vaishampayan' freely goes in the palace of King Shoodrak.

In 7th century inasions started, infre structure broken , landlords appointed by invaders and some preists associated with them to create an equivalanet slavery system in India.

Another proof of non existence of slavery is recorded by `Indica' written by Greek traveller Arrain
"This also is remarkable in India, that all Indians are free, and no Indian at all is a slave. In this the Indians agree with the Lacedaemonians. Yet the Lacedaemonians have Helots for slaves, who perform the duties of slaves; but the Indians have no slaves at all, much less is any Indian a slave."


http://:www.earth-history.com/India/arrian.htm+Arrian+on+India

Last but not the least is a very highly eroneous statement of the writer that Charurvarnya is a rigid system and noway to come out of it.
It is a blatant lies.

Shiv Puran very clearly says that :

a Khsatriya becomes a Brahmin if he chants 500,000 time om namah Shivay mantra.
A vaishya become Khsatriya by 5 lack mantra and Brahmion by 10 lack mantra recitaion.
A shudra becomes vaishya by reciting 5 lack, a khastrya by another 5 lack and a Bramnic by another 5 lack.

Once a person reaches to Brahmin level addition 5 lack recitation will lead to MOksha.

Word `vanodhar' ie upliftment(Spritual)of varna
has been used. refer Part 1 of Shivpuran Chapter`shivling poojandaan varnan (description of worshiping of symbol of Shiva) Shloka no 40 to 60

Therefore it is wrong to say varna sustem is rigid and... It has been made rigid by `landlords appointed by foreign invaders' and now reservation in jobs and education has made it permanent.

Yes Asuras instal Adharma many times and then defame hindusim from Adharma days of sanskrit literature. cast based opression is adharma.

In case of Islam, it is not misinterpreation of Quarn my freinds, its is activities of Mohammed that decide a Muslims life. As Muhamemd himself led a number of raids and wrote terrorising letters to various tribes, Islam will collapse if it abandons terrorism.

The ayats like `killing one innocent human ..." is ayat reveled in Mecca when Mohammed was weak and not having more then 20 followers in spite of preaching for 11 years.

The moment he became strong 10,000 organisation this Ayat became irrelevant and `kill kafirs where you find them'became slogan of the day.

Let's be very clear in Understanding Mohammed of Mecca(early 11 years) and Mohammed of Medina (later part). These two Mohammed's are altogather different. Mohammed of Mecca is Mohamed the weak and preaches all humanism which Muslims generally quote whenever caught in terror. Opposite to it Mohammed of medina the strongman and barbaric preaching violence against non muslims. This later activities made islam spread like wildfire. Attack, kill or convert the males above 14 years and enslave wom,en and kids to slowly force them to convert.(to maintain a humane mask)

#200
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 21, 2008
02:22 PM

REPEAT FOR THE LAST TIME - ALL THE FUCKING ARABS HAVE TO DO TO GET PEACE IN GAZA FROM THE WIMPS IN JERUSALEM IS TO STOP FIRING ROCKETS AT OUR PEOPLE IN S'DEROT, 'ASHQELON AND OTHER TOWNS NEAR GAZA.

LET'S GET THAT CLEAR IN YOUR STUPID HEADS, THE LOT OF YOU. THE WIMPS IN JERUSALEM WOULD BE HAPPY TO SEE A REAL CEASE FIRE: THE ARABS AREN'T GIVING THEM ONE, AND THE WIMPS IN JERUSALEM RESPOND WITH HALF MEASURES BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T GOT THE BALLS TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - TO STARVE THE SONS OF BITCHES OUT, AND LET THEM SWALLOW THEIR OWN VOMIT FOR DINNER.

AND FOR THE VERY LAST TIME: IF IT BOTHERS YOU THAT WE JEWS DARE DEFEND OURSELVES, YOU CAN BURN IN HELL.

I HAVE NOTHING MORE TO SAY ON THE MATTER.

#201
temporal
URL
January 21, 2008
02:23 PM

here is another view for the coloniser

Israel's War Crimes In The Gaza Strip By Ida Audeh

Between September 2000 and November 2007, about 1,804 Palestinian civilians in Gaza were killed by the Israeli army and 11,300 were wounded; 2,931 homes were completely destroyed, and 2,848 homes were partially destroyed. Because 71% of the population is refugees, the probability is high that those made homeless by Israel's periodic rampages were losing their homes for the second or third time. Gazan households typically consist of 6-7 people, and so the number of people affected by a single death, an injury, or a house demolition is huge.(7)

Israel claims that its criminal siege is necessitated by the crude home-made missiles fired by Palestinian militants on the Israeli town Sderot, which have killed 12 Israelis in 6 years. The provocation to Sderot (in itself a response to Israel's ongoing assassination policy and sustained assault on the Gaza Strip) does not justify Israel's policy of entrapment and enforced pauperization of an entire population. (If the killing of 12 Israelis over several years justifies the havoc wreaked on more than a million people, what would be an appropriate retribution for Gazans to seek from Israelis?)

#202
kerty
January 21, 2008
02:26 PM

Anamika..

I tried to respond to your comments within the context of overall theme of this thread - which is to bash all religions and I tried to provide counter views to that theme. If someone agrees with the bashing, it is arse and if one disagrees, it is elbows, or adding missing arguments to the lope-sided discussion is diversion, than I am guilty as charged.

On the other hand, some of you have tried to turn it into a bashing of nation/state of Israel and Ruvy. I consider that to be diversionary and not in good taste. Other than earning few browny points over Ruvy or Kahane, it does not do much.

When you guys are done Ruvy bashing and Israel bashing and feel the need to return to original theme of this thread, have a go at my last 2 posts.

#203
temporal
URL
January 21, 2008
02:48 PM

ruvy:

we understand that "you have nothing more to say"...do you?

and for your health's sake, stop frothing;)

#204
Amit Patel
January 21, 2008
02:53 PM

Ruvi,
No one can stop Israel & Palestine war, just keep on fighting. But World is tired of "Middle East Crisis". Crisis is wrong word to use; the word should be "Middle Eastern Life Style". Go ahead keep on killing and dying. Just leave rest of the world alone, because now they have their own problems to deal with.

#205
temporal
URL
January 21, 2008
03:33 PM

Worldwide anger over Gaza plight

'Collective punishment'

The criticism of Benita Ferrero Waldner, EU external relations commissioner, was also strong as she accused Israel of carrying out "collective punishment" of Gaza's 1.5 million people.

The EU commissioner warned that neither the closure of Gaza's border nor the deadly air raids and incursions of the past week would bring Israel security from rockets fired by Palestinian armed groups.

"Only a credible political agreement this year ... can turn Palestinians away from violence," she said.

#206
commonsense
January 21, 2008
03:57 PM

Ruvy my friend wrote:

""THE LOT OF YOU. THE WIMPS IN JERUSALEM WOULD BE HAPPY TO SEE A REAL CEASE FIRE: THE ARABS AREN'T GIVING THEM ONE, AND THE WIMPS IN JERUSALEM RESPOND WITH HALF MEASURES BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T GOT THE BALLS TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - TO STARVE THE SONS OF BITCHES OUT, AND LET THEM SWALLOW THEIR OWN VOMIT FOR DINNER.

AND FOR THE VERY LAST TIME: IF IT BOTHERS YOU THAT WE JEWS DARE DEFEND OURSELVES, YOU CAN BURN IN HELL.

I HAVE NOTHING TO SAY""

My friend Ruvy has finally totally lost it. Covenant or no covenant, this result was quite predictable since against the 0+0=0 commonsense everyone understands, he wanted to prove 0+0=1 or some such thing...

Ruvy Bhai, you have nothing to say? What about your job as the friendly neighbourhood member of Kahane's unit, responsible for spreading his vision globally? Aren't you going to spread more of his and your spin on the news? Ah, but that would mean using CRT's, computers and books that you so self-righteously accused me of using much earlier!! Hypocrisy always short-circuits itself my friend. Despite everything, not all is lost, since you used to be a regular, thoughtful member of society and could still become one if you give up sectarian rantings and rage against people who happen not to agree with you.

#207
commonsense
January 21, 2008
04:00 PM

Ruvy my friend wrote:

""THE WIMPS IN JERUSALEM RESPOND WITH HALF MEASURES BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T GOT THE BALLS TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - TO STARVE THE SONS OF BITCHES OUT, AND LET THEM SWALLOW THEIR OWN VOMIT FOR DINNER.""

The venom, the racist hatred, the cruel thoughts...all out in the open. Not that anyone expected any better from a Kahane supporter, but its good (and tragic) to for you to spell it out. You cannot accuse us for insuiniating all this.

And who will now be emailed to check whether garden-variety of racism and genocidal ideas are being spewed by Mr. Ruvy in Jersusalem or not?

#208
commonsense
January 21, 2008
04:13 PM

Ruvy wrote/wished for a final solution (a few hours before the Gaza blockade!):

""My solution to Gaza would be simple: cut off the water, cut off the juice, cut off the food, and cut off the medical supplies. No military raids except those absolutely necessary to accomplish the four goals above.""

Then, when it actually came to pass (perhaps Kahane does have some influence up there!), he is now busy cutting/pasting from his own private news sources to pathetically try to prove that what he advoated above and what indeed is happening, is something that is no happening.

Not just hypocrisy, but hypocrisy ridden by endless contradictory loops. So Ruvy, what is happening now was your expressed wish, your "solution" (you dare not use the term "final solution") and now you spend your energy blaming CBC, CNN, BBC and every other news organization and deny that what you wanted to happen is not in fact happening?

For you to wish that any member of the human race should die eating their own vomit, is beyond disgusting since you think of yourself as the mother of all victims. And don't bother to remind me that Hamas terrorists also think the same way, since I am not here to defend them (to prevent, without hope, you and Kerty from diversions). Unlike you, I am not a sectarian, vindictive racist bigot. I would never wish for you the fate that you hope will be the lot of all Palestinians. My only wish is that you will eventually recover from your delusions and become the human being that you used to be. It is not impossible as many neo-Nazis, Islamic Jehadists, Kahaneyites do see the light and get transformed. Unless being a Kahane supporter is your only source of roz--roti (income) and you live in one of those illegal settlements, swearing by the power of Uzi...

#209
commonsense
January 21, 2008
04:16 PM

Kerty:

""It is my contention that at the root of all conflicts and wars is statism....""

Be content with contending anything you wish, until the proverbial cows come home...just wanted to remind you that this is not a Phd oral examination but a discussion about a specific isue. Cyberspace however is unlimited, so please go on contending anything you want, contentious or not...

#210
commonsense
January 21, 2008
04:20 PM

Ruvy wrote:

""The IDF says, however, that this is media spin; a deliberate manipulation by the Hamas government to make Israel look as bad as possible.""

Translation: if you want real news, don't bother with any news organization. Pay attention instead, to the IDF (Israel Defense Forces). Since they are actually on the scene enforcing the blockade, how can we not trust them with the truth? They are eveywitnesses to everything while the BBC, CNN, CBC etc. have some Ae-Rab sand in their eyes...

#211
commonsense
January 21, 2008
04:30 PM

Ruvy wrote: (full post)

""Commonsense for all? No. Bullshit for all - NON-STOP""

In contrast to your usual verbosity, almost matching my own verbal diahhorea, you seem unusually tongue-tied? Did Gaza break your concentration??

#212
Anamika
January 21, 2008
04:35 PM

Kerty - the issue isn't Israel-bashing, but pointing out that there is NO justification for genocide. As Israel is a STATE founded - like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan - on the basis of religion, its denizens (like Ruvy) employ religion as the justification for their crimes.

Second, religion (ALL forms of it) by definition are collective enterprises. You can as an individual hold specific individual beliefs but that is NOT religion but spirituality. Religions are collective measures - and like states - meant to identify a specific group of people while differentiating them from others. Depending on the form of religion, this characteristic can be either historically porous and fluid (as is often the case with Indic ones), subject to change (as in Christianity and Islam) or based in genetics (as in Judaism).

Btw, this is not a value judgement meant to create some ridiculous heirarchy of "my religion is better than yours" as each of these forms have historically served a particular purpose for a particular population. And they continue to evolve.

Now to your specific questions (by numbers):
1. When rape or murder takes place, why not hold statism accountable?

When rape and murder (or other crimes) happen on an individual level ie based in greed/anger/fear etc, these are held accountable on individual levels. When it happens for collective ethnic reasons (Serbian collective war crimes) or religious reasons (Taliban or Israeli settlers) or state purposes (Abu Ghraib or Haditha), these must be attributed to the ethnic group, religion or state. I see no reason for using different standards.

2. Why not hold bearers of ruling ideology accountable?

When crimes are committed on state or religious basis, bearers of ruling ideology SHOULD be held responsible whether it be Hitler or Sharon.

3. Why not hold constitution and democracy accountable?

If a constitution allows for differentiation amongst people on basis of race (pre-Civil Rights America or apartheid South Africa) or religion (Israel and Saudi Arabia today), one DOES hold the constitution responsible. Democracy cannot be held accountable because you will notice that - in all these cases - one casualty of the injustice is the democratic process.

4. Why not blame individualism and bearer of this ideology accountable for crimes of individuals?

Isn't that what criminal courts do all the time?

5. Why different set of rules for religions and another set of rules for ideologies of statism?

As far as I can see, I haven't made any distinction. Communism is as much a "religion" - look at some of Sujai's articles as Hinduism, Christianity, Islam or Judaism. So as far as I can see there are no different set of rules.

The only person who has a separate set of rules on this thread - as far as I can see - is Ruvy who wants Israeli crimes against humanity considered as divine acts instead of genocide.

#213
commonsense
January 21, 2008
04:36 PM

Ruvy wrote:

""Let's see if you well honed Desi intellectuals can figure this basic proposition out...""

Ruvy my friend, I am not blond like you. My desi genes (speaking for myself not other desis)take longer to get cracking as in I'm dim-witted. Can I have a couple of days to digest what you are writing about and another couple of days to respond. Oh, yes, no need to remind me that what you are writing is simply yet another iteration of what represents standard sectarian bigot logic. Even so, my so-called brains, having fallen out a bit on account of being too open-minded to your revealed views, will need some time to understand what you are writing about. When you insert a few Hebrew phrases in there, I have to rely on my not-yet bitter half to translate for me...

#214
Anamika
January 21, 2008
04:56 PM

Ruvy, if IDF (better known as IOF) is the most reliable source on Israel, we will trust the the memoir, Checkpoint Syndrome, written by Liran Ron Furer, an Israeli Occupation Force member? Here goes a passage from the book on the situation at the border:

"It came out that the commander of the battalion was on a reconnaissance in the region and saw two chldren messing about near the fence of the station. He shouted them to stop and stand still but they ran away in the direction of the checkpoint. The commander drove after them in his jeep and when the children got onto the footpath on the Palestinian side, he called the soldiers on his loudspeaker to stop the children. Lifkin, who was a good shot, bent on his knee and without hesitation shot at one of the children. The child was hit below the knee. He lay on the ground screaming and holding his leg, which was swinging as if wasn't connected to his body anymore." (pages 56-57, translated from the Hebrew by Shimon Tzabar).

There are LOADS of reports by the Israeli Occupation Force that will turn most stomachs here if that is the only trustworthy source on Israel/Palestine situation. Would you like to read graphic accounts written by ISRAELI soldiers themselves of how IOF humiliates, rapes and murders Palestinians? Would you like to read how IOF soldiers take pleasure in kicking the bellies of pregnant women to cause miscarriages and laugh and say - "We'll see what kind of Arab baby she will have now?" Or would you like to read memoirs of how Israeli soldiers are fined 25 shekels for killing Palestinian children?

Definitely sounds like Auschwitz, with the Jews playing Nazis this time!

#215
commonsense
January 21, 2008
04:57 PM

Ruvy wrote:

""A para-military force bombards your towns day in day out. They fire rockets attempting to destroy your towns.""

Commonsense believes in taking even delusional people seriously.

Interesting, but not surprising that Mr. Ruvy's account begins with "bombs and rockets" falling on his towns. Commonsense, my own desi logic tells me that the phrases "illegal occupation" "expulsions" should be inserted prior to this begining...since he does not begin at the begining, the rest is all drivel....

For added effect: yes, if for no particular reason residents of Niagara Falls begin to bombard Buffalo, N.Y. or the other way around, that would be cause for war between the US and Canada after attempts to figure out the cause of the problem.

Note, I am not supporting any group here. There are only two solutions here:

1. A two-state solution, Israel and Palestine. Would there be wars in the future? Maybe, but that can be dealt with later, as war between two sovereign nations-states.

2. A one-state solution, whatever the name of it might be, where all are citizens, Jews, Arabs, and yes even Kahaneites who believe only they are pure Jews and others Jews are merely "Yids".
Then if the Kahaneites continue to be Uzi-trigger happy, they are dealt under the secular laws. Hamas types create the same problem they face the same music.

3. The Kahane solution of course will never come to pass as not even a majority of the Israeli Jews laugh at them, despite their capacity for serious damage. If it did come to pass, they will realize the Israel is physically located in the Middle-East, and not in upstate New York. If the Kahaneites believe that they are surrounded by hostile neighbours now, imagine what would happen if they actually succeeded in their plans for ethnic cleansing, or "the solution" held out by Ruvy and Rabbi Kahane.

Whatever might happen or not happen of course has nothing to do with any covenants or Talmudic injunctions (no disrespect intended), but everything to do with geo-politics, the politics of oil and water, and of course the fact that politics everywhere has been infused with religious self-righeousness and bigotry.

Now, even if there were two-states living side by side or just one state, would that stop new problems from cropping up? Commonsense tells me, of course not! But that has never been the argument for preserving slavery, perpetual inquisition, tolerating taliban style governments, tolerating sexism, tolerating homophobia etc. etc. Change is eternal and will always bring forth new problems that ought to dealt with in a secular rational way rather than religous or any other form of bigoted crap...


#216
commonsense
January 21, 2008
05:06 PM

Ruvy wrote:

""All the Arabs in Gaza have to do to end the blockade is stop trying to kill us - stop firing rockets at us. None of you finely honed Desi intellectuals (with one or two intelligent exceptions) have even thought of that point. ""

Well, we make do with one or two intelligent people among us...and we are doing just fine...

Are you seeking out some desis to support you since the secular Jews or "the Yids" as you abuse them, have nothing but contempt for you?

#217
commonsense
January 21, 2008
05:08 PM

Ruvy wrote:

""I guess you finely honed Desi intellectuals regret that Hitler didn't kill us all. Your words indicate that.""

Good bait that one! Uttered in complete ignorance, as usual...of the Jewish community in India...

#218
kerty
January 21, 2008
05:13 PM

CS

I am kind of disappointed. I was hoping that you would pick at least one or two lines from my post and run with it, to illustrate your uncommon sense, of course. But in stead, you were content merely to pick on one word 'contention' without getting into its substance as usual. I guess I will have to try harder next time to stimulate your common sense.

#219
commonsense
January 21, 2008
05:14 PM

Ruvy wrote:

""The fact that we Jews dare defend ourselves against Arab terror has you all with your underwear and panties bunched up screaming Nazis like so many chimps chittering in a zoo.""

Underwears?? As a desi (speaking for myself now!), I make do with a langoti; roomier and it does not cramp my er er assets, shall we say? However I am waiting for you to re-colonize me and drill some sartorial sense in me...

#220
commonsense
January 21, 2008
05:18 PM

Man Singh Bhai:

""Just like a gang of dacoits and village youth beating them back, both are violent but one violence...."

Man Singh Bhai maan gayey! I have been missing your dacoits attacking the village parables...however, please give me a rain-check if you are expecting a response...

#221
commonsense
January 21, 2008
05:21 PM

Ruvy wrote:

""THE WIMPS IN JERUSALEM RESPOND WITH HALF MEASURES BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T GOT THE BALLS TO DO THE JOB RIGHT - TO STARVE THE SONS OF BITCHES OUT, AND LET THEM SWALLOW THEIR OWN VOMIT FOR DINNER.""

If truth be told, even "Mr. Bullshit" (ie. me, elevated further from Man Singh's "Nonsense" nom de plume for me) was not really prepared for this level of hatred for other human beings...

#222
commonsense
January 21, 2008
05:25 PM

Ruvy my friend wrote:

""IF IT BOTHERS YOU THAT WE JEWS DARE DEFEND OURSELVES, YOU CAN BURN IN HELL.""

As a non-believer, can you design an oven for me? I prefer modernist style - straight line, lots of steel and glass so others can witness my agony. Or would that be simply wasting time for the sake of "mr. bullshit"??

#223
commonsense
January 21, 2008
05:27 PM

Ruvy wrote:

""IF IT BOTHERS YOU THAT WE JEWS DARE DEFEND OURSELVES, YOU CAN BURN IN HELL.""

Can you expand a bit further on "we Jews". Would that include those whom you abuse as "the Yids" and the others you call "the wimps in Jerusalem"? Or is it just those who salivate while listening to Kahane's kahanees?

#224
commonsense
January 21, 2008
05:30 PM

Kerty wrote:

""I tried to respond to your comments within the context of overall theme of this thread - which is to bash all religions and I tried to provide counter views to that theme. If someone agrees with the bashing, it is arse and if one disagrees, it is elbows, or adding missing arguments to the lope-sided discussion is diversion, than I am guilty as charged.""

Arse and elbows were my assinine interventions. Anamika has nothing to do with those terms...

#225
Morris
January 21, 2008
05:39 PM

All religions but specifically those believing in one God have caused a lot of conflicts in the world. They are out to convince others that they have found THE right God. They consider their duty to show the true God to others. My sugggestion is believe in all kind of Gods, more the merrier so that you don't have to convince any one about right one. After all can any one prove that there is only one?

#226
commonsense
January 21, 2008
05:52 PM

Anamika wrote:

""Second, religion (ALL forms of it) by definition are collective enterprises. You can as an individual hold specific individual beliefs but that is NOT religion but spirituality. Religions are collective measures - and like states - meant to identify a specific group of people while differentiating them from others. Depending on the form of religion, this characteristic can be either historically porous and fluid (as is often the case with Indic ones), subject to change (as in Christianity and Islam) or based in genetics (as in Judaism).""

Well put Anamika...I wish I could have expressed it so succintly!! Er, er...except for the last sentence that appears to be to definitve! There is no genetic uniformity in people who identify with Judaism, as in they share their genetic markers with some Arab groups and vice versa. This not surprising as most geneticists agree that there is no such thing as "race", except for variations within population groups that are then "socially" defined as "race". Judaism, like all other religions, is a social, not a biological fact and specific genetic markers appear due to a long history of inter-marriage. There are distinct variations within Judaism and these are shared with all middle-eastern people, including the Arabs. Not surprising at all, considering Judaism emerged in the middle-east and had to convert others who were not born Jews, to propogate itself...there are many examples of "Arab Jews" even though Ruvy will snarl again if he hears this "heresy"!

Here's a brief excerpt from a book by the pre-eminent population geneticist by the name of L. L. Cavalli-Sforza, at Stanford U, that resulted from a major project. (Note the sentence about Palestinians and Jews, and the fact that this research team had a number of Israeli Jewish scientists on board)

""The authors of the book "The History and Geography of Human Genes"1, published in 1994, and the abridged version in 19962, took on the monumental task of analyzing the vast number of research articles written about genetic properties of different human populations. The senior author, Prof. L.L. Cavalli-Sforza, Professor of Genetics at Stanford University, is considered one of the preeminent human population geneticists in the world....there was an "extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations [Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, Druze, Saudi Arabians] observed here ...[that] supports the hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin" of these populations dating back about 4,000 years. The differences between the populations were not statistically significant, demonstrating once again the close genetic relationship of Middle Eastern populations to each other. In fact, the Palestinians and Syrians were so close to the Jews in genetic characteristics that they "mapped within the central cluster of Jewish populations." As one of the Israeli scientists on the team said, "Eventually people will realize that they are not that different." Peace through Genetics?""

#227
commonsense
January 21, 2008
05:57 PM

Morris wrote:

""My sugggestion is believe in all kind of Gods, more the merrier so that you don't have to convince any one about right one. After all can any one prove that there is only one? ""

Good point! Futhermore, can anyone prove or disprove that there's none? Live and let live. Secular Humanism, respecting all relgions and non-religions, using the full arm of the law on those who try to subvert this...vaighara, vaighara, vaighara...

#228
commonsense
January 21, 2008
05:57 PM

Morris wrote:

""My sugggestion is believe in all kind of Gods, more the merrier so that you don't have to convince any one about right one. After all can any one prove that there is only one? ""

Good point! Futhermore, can anyone prove or disprove that there's none? Live and let live. Secular Humanism, respecting all relgions and non-religions, using the full arm of the law on those who try to subvert this...vaighara, vaighara, vaighara...

#229
Ravi Kulkarni
URL
January 21, 2008
06:42 PM

Dear Commonsense,

Great job exposing Ruvy as the closet bigot that he is. He always appeared so sane and rational in his earlier posts. So much for humanity...

"Vaighara vaighara...?"

What are you thinking my friend... LOL.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#230
commonsense
January 21, 2008
07:02 PM

Ravi,

Thanks! Although I should learn some editing skills from Temporal and Anamika since I went overboard with words...to tell you the truth I was foaming and frothing too, but not because I hate him personally or anything like that...

Vaighara Vaighara? Just a term used in some parts of India to express "etc. etc...."

Best wishes,

CS

#231
Man Singh
URL
January 21, 2008
07:13 PM

commonsense #220

yaar chhodunga nahi.

how can you equate dacoits and village youth beating them back? how `religions attacking others' and religions `religions resepcting others' can deserve equal respect.

How come followers of `live and let live' and `kill and get killed' be treated equally?

How come associates of invaders and peaceful villagers be treated equally?

Dharma is the only criteria for equality my freinds. Dharma is a set of 10 Universal values (Daya Dhriti Khsama etc) and a not way of worship.

That was the reason when Budha preached he never attacked Dharma. he always reinforced Dharma and kicked out greedy thekedars of dharma out of dharma arena.

When mahaveera preached jainism he never attacked Dharma but reinforced it.

When Nanak or Guru Gobind Singh Ji maharaj preached Khalasa they always said that Khalsa is a `Panth' to re-establish Dharma.

The day on whcih Muslims and christians will understand this simple but deep philosophy of `Dharma' they will stop evangelism and conversions and will start serving society without disturbing their way of worship.

I am pretty sure the day on which these foreiogn gangs will understand definition of Dharma religious tolerance will become permanenet.

Your `secular Humanism' is nothing but Dharma described in vedas and Upnishadas more then 5000 years ago by Maharshi vedvyasa.

however wisemen on those days expalined the universal truths of dharma in story telling form , in creating models and many other creative ways just like a professor of geormetry takes help of pictures to teach the subject and human mind is more erceptive when explained with sketches, examples, stories, case studeies and pictures.

why you are shy to use the word `Dharma' for `secular humanism' my freind? Why you are shy in giving due credit to your forfathers for their creative ways of establishing religious tolerance in this land since ancinet times?




#232
Anamika
January 21, 2008
08:58 PM

CS: "Er, er...except for the last sentence that appears to be to definitve! There is no genetic uniformity in people who identify with Judaism, as in they share their genetic markers with some Arab groups and vice versa."

Okay I should have been clearer. Judaism accepts anyone with a Jewish mother to be Jewish - that is what I meant by genetic. That Judaism is gene based rather than culture/conversion based. Unlike Hinduism where people are also born into the religion but which expands and assimilates anyone in its fold (for good or bad), Judaism shows little interest in doing so. So it tries to retain false genetic lineages, despite the realities of people mixing all over the place.

There were stricter genetic requirements btw but as Israel has needed people over the past 60+, they have removed the various caveats. So they brought in the Ethiopians (never mind the racism they faced in the "promised" land), and the Yemenites. And then Israel recognised a "lost tribe" in the Indian north east.

They tried staging a Hollywood style "return" saga with the Indians too last year. The same way they had carried out the "heroic" airlifts from Ethiopia. But the Indian government (which btw doesn't mind taking money to launch Israeli satellites) decided it didn't care to be the back drop of a movie it didn't
direct/produce/sell. So the Israelis were told to fly out their "lost tribe" on commercial flights rather than a single big televised "airlift." ROTFL...kills me still. :-)

So you're right, its not really "race based" in a strict Nazi sense basically because Israel needs any live bodies it can get on its side given the "demographic threat" from the Arabs. Lol...

Btw, you missed the thread when Ruvy tried to explain how the Pathans, especially the Afridis, would one day remember their "Jewish" origins and return to the fold. That is STILL my ABSOLUTE FAVOURITE from Ruvy's repertoire.

So now, when I get depressed at the way the Holocaust gives the Israeli absolute licence to kill, rape, etc, I imagine an Israel with a few thousand Pathans. It reminds me that somewhere up there in the universe there may well be a divine entity with a sick sense of humour! :-)


#233
commonsense
January 21, 2008
09:22 PM

Hi Anamika.

Thanks for mentioning this:

""Btw, you missed the thread when Ruvy tried to explain how the Pathans, especially the Afridis, would one day remember their "Jewish" origins and return to the fold. That is STILL my ABSOLUTE FAVOURITE from Ruvy's repertoire""

yes I could sense that he was on some sort of a recruitment/conversion mission of sorts...since in a message on another thread to Temporal, he talked about "my contacts" in Pakistan...a lot of sensible, secular Jews have been leaving Israel over the years, sick and tired of this crap. And a number of not-quite-Jews are being invited on promises of plum housing (on illegally occupied land, replete with Uzis etc.), as long as they promise to be "good Jews". This has been happening for a long time, because even the Kahane following Jews are getting tired of the violence...but they figure, typical colonial thinking, somebody from a "poorer" area would not mind the troubles and indeed repay them by fighting on their behalf...so much for the presumed "purity" of the so-called Jewish race...

Sorry I did not mean to question your interpretation...but it tickles me to no end when the kahane types use genetics to proclaim their "purity" as a "chosen people"!

Seriously though, I do feel sorry for Ruvy and his types and I don't gloat at all. I do hope he will come to his senses, although his bigotry programming appears to be tamper-proof at this stage...

I need a break!!

Best wishes,

CS

#234
commonsense
January 21, 2008
09:24 PM

Man Singh wrote:

""why you are shy to use the word `Dharma' for `secular humanism' my freind? Why you are shy in giving due credit to your forfathers for their creative ways of establishing religious tolerance in this land since ancinet times?""

Man Singh Bhai, good questions. Maybe:

1. Because I am my own person?

2. I am allergic to sectarianism?


#235
Ruvy in Jerusalem
URL
January 21, 2008
11:45 PM

Ravi, you write,

Dear Commonsense,

Great job exposing Ruvy as the closet bigot that he is. He always appeared so sane and rational in his earlier posts. So much for humanity...


There is only so much lying, twisting of words and hypocrisy that I will tolerate without striking back in righteous anger. But bullshitforall seems to have convinced you that I am a "closet bigot". So much for humanity. I too, know how to write people off, and I'm writing you off as you have written me off....

Bullshitforall calls himself a secular humanist who doesn't want to be contaminated with "sectarianism" as he himself says. Thus he attacks a Jewish sage, and a man who has been proven a prophet. Just because he teaches quantum mechanics doesn't make him less blinkered than the average close-minded fool. It merely closes his eyes to different things.

As for Anamika, and Temporal, I will get blunt and straightforwnard. They are both lying hypocrites, Anamika in particular, because she knows better.

There are some decent people who post comments here, not because they agree or disagree with me; I am less than a cipher. But they are honest, clear and straightforward. And the publisher of this site is a decent man. But the folks I have mentioned above have ruined any desire I have to participate further on this site at all, except to lurk to see if questions I have can be answered in private communications.

In the fullness of time, you will see that I am right, and that fools like bullshitforall are wrong - if you survive the very painful events that you (as a sub-continent) will face in the near future. As for those dangers, those are not my problem. I am absolved of any duty to warn you of danger, particularly given the way you have chosen to view me.

So don't bother answering. You will not hear from me again.

#236
Anamika
January 21, 2008
11:53 PM

Ruvy: "Thus he attacks a Jewish sage, and a man who has been proven a prophet."

Okay, this is beyond hilarious....lol.

Btw, Ruvy - WHAT have I lied about? That Israelis aren't killing Palestinians? Or that the Holocaust doesn't give Israelis a free rein to ethnically cleanse others?

Btw, re your threats of what awaits the subcontinent, well, lets put it this way - I guess all your time on the forum didn't teach you much about India. India has lasted and flourished against all sorts of threats for a few thousand years and unless the entire planet goes up in dust, we'll still be here. Despite your ham-handed appeal to a fanatic minority of Islam-bashers on this forum, I don't see us going down in the near future - of course it does help to stand a billion strong!

#237
Anamika
January 21, 2008
11:58 PM

Ruvy: "And the publisher of this site is a decent man."

Aaman, beware of compliments from fanatics. :-)

#238
temporal
URL
January 22, 2008
12:31 AM

ana:

do you recall the trailer for dr. strangelove?

the "prophet's" disciple is atop the cockpit riding it as a stallion

;)

and ruvy:

here is a prediction from a near-prophet (poets suffer from this affliction too, you know)

you cannot resist us

(in hebrew it means you will be back here)

#239
commonsense
January 22, 2008
12:58 AM

Ruvy wrote:

""Thus he attacks a Jewish sage, and a man who has been proven a prophet....

In the fullness of time, you will see that I am right, and that fools like bullshitforall are wrong - if you survive the very painful events that you (as a sub-continent) will face in the near future. As for those dangers, those are not my problem. I am absolved of any duty to warn you of danger, particularly given the way you have chosen to view me.""

Ruvy my friend, I understand that you believe that Rav Kahane, may G-d redeem his blood, was a sage and a prophet. That's fine with me, as there are prophets a dime a dozen, and it is all in the evyes of the believers. But in the second quote above, you are begining to sound like a prophet too. Did he pass on the mantle to you or are you decided to become a prophet on your own accord? How many believers do you have? Even if you do not respond (and I do have a day job!!) as a lurker, ask yourself this question.

Bada dheet admi hai yeh

(Translation for you my friend Ruvy: This guy does not give up so easily!)



#240
commonsense
January 22, 2008
01:04 AM

Ruvy wrote:

""Thus he attacks a Jewish sage, and a man who has been proven a prophet.""

Thus you ignore the fact that almost all Jewish Israelis attack your prophet by banning him from the Kenesset, by banning his organization and by making any support for it, a crime. So once again you are back with your hypocrisy: A yes and no question to you that will be lost on you, but I persevere: Is Abraham H. Foxman a friend or an enemy of the Jewish people (hint, national director of the ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE):

"Abraham H. Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith, described the Kahane activities as subterfuge and said they should be stopped. In 1995, the league issued a report on the Kahane movement, concluding it was ''a cult of violence and racism'' that had ''violated both the substance and spirit of Jewish tradition.''

#241
commonsense
January 22, 2008
01:08 AM

Ruvy: "And the publisher of this site is a decent man."

There's an old saying: "Beware of the Greeks who come bearing gifts"

(Nothing to do with the Greeks as we undestand the term, so no Greeks should get upset...reference to a histocical dispute... Although Rav Kahane did abuse Jews who did not agree with him, as "Hellenized" Jews. Not sure if he meant they are like Greeks or if they were destined for hell and hence were already hellenized :)

R. K. Narayan in his wonderful book of essays titled _A Writer's Nightmare_ also has a fabulous piece on sycophancy as the world's oldest profession...

#242
commonsense
January 22, 2008
01:10 AM

Ruvy wrote:

"As for Anamika, and Temporal, I will get blunt and straightforwnard. They are both lying hypocrites, Anamika in particular, because she knows better."

Not fair! Why am I being discriminated against! I am a bigger liar and hypocrite than both of them put together! I feel deprived...

#243
commonsense
January 22, 2008
01:15 AM

Temporal wrote:

""do you recall the trailer for dr. strangelove?

the "prophet's" disciple is atop the cockpit riding it as a stallion""

Man, I needed to laugh! thanks!

#244
commonsense
January 22, 2008
01:23 AM

Temporal wrote:

""do you recall the trailer for dr. strangelove?

the "prophet's" disciple is atop the cockpit riding it as a stallion""

Man, I needed to laugh! thanks!

#245
commonsense
January 22, 2008
01:28 AM

Ruvy wrote:

""I am absolved of any duty to warn you of danger, particularly given the way you have chosen to view me.""

Fair enough. But for the sake of the non-hypocritical people on this site, can you reveal all? I don't live on the "sub-continent", perhaps your prophesies could save those who do?
Why are you inflicting "collective punishment" on everyone for my sins?

#246
kerty
January 22, 2008
02:53 AM

Ruvy

You got first hand glimpse of how some people conduct political discourse even in a little forum about something that has very little stakes for Indians. You can well imagine what it must be like to engage in political discourse in India when one has to contend with whole leftist establishment about more immediate issues on which Indians have so much at stake. The modus operendi is the same but magnified many fold - to drive away dissenting views by all means. I hope you don't get discouraged. If you can resist the trolls and they are easy to spot, you would do fine. I look forward to many more posts from you.

#247
Ledzius
January 22, 2008
03:58 AM

So much for Islam claiming to hold the moral upper hand when it comes to not having a caste system and treating everyone equal.

Read this article - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080120/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_forced_divorce;_ylt=ApmtUjBZJwX7aZW.STYtxf8UewgF

What a bunch of hypocrites and jokers.

#248
smallsquirrel
January 22, 2008
04:30 AM

I just found this entire discussion disappointing and upsetting :(

#249
kela
January 22, 2008
04:40 AM

to the contrary i think it has done good and exposed their true colours

#250
kela
January 22, 2008
04:43 AM

I completely agree with Ruvy when he calls the Brahmincal hindus here lying hypocrites and cowards.I can see why he's bewildered and confused how his allies have turned against him.Well this is just their way of doing things.No wonder Indians are hated the world over and both South-Indians and North-east Indians hate to be identifed as Indians and to be associated with Brahminical hindu north-indians.The cowards that they are,they would never do soemthing upfront and in your face,instead they would rather use brains than brawn and create something like the caste system to enslave and discriminate the natives.Now that caste no longer works for them they are out to re-write India's history books with ludicrous claims that they were never invaders/settlers.
Be warned though,that fascist extremists will eventually die the dogs death of their mentors

#251
Ravi Kulkarni
January 22, 2008
06:25 AM

Dear Commonsense,

I know what you meant by Vaighara... (vaghaira?). But it sounded so much like viagra :) Just for laughs.

Regards,

Ravi

#252
Ravi Kulkarni
January 22, 2008
07:00 AM

Dear Ruvy and his friends,

I am not an Israeli/Jew basher. I have utmost respect for both and support their cause. If you have read my occasional rants on DC, I come across more like a Islamic basher than one of the lefties on this forum. In truth, I am not an ideologue, I just like to call a spade a spade.

Just as commonsense has very eloquently illustrated, just because your forefathers lived on a land thousands of years ago, it does not give you an inalienable right to that land, especially since you left it all those generations ago and someone else chose to live there. I am all for a two state solution.

There is just no way you can eliminate all the Palestinians any more than we can eliminate Muslims from India. It is not just impractical, it is also inhuman.

Consider "I don't need to justify my faith" and "Kahane's proposals: expulsion of hostile Arabs. Encouraging other Arabs to leave with adequate compensation, so that they would be able to make a decent living in whatever country they settled in." This latter statement summarizes your stance and it is totally delusional. What about non-hostile but non-compliant Arabs? Or in your book, non-compliance equals hostile?

It is ethnic cleansing plain and simple. What happened in the subcontinent during the partition is not relevant here, because mistakes have been made in the past, but no one in India is seriously proposing that all Muslims leave India today or tomorrow. Unfortunately that's what you proposing in Israel/Palestine. The sooner you come to your senses and accept the reality that two states exist and will continue to exist, the better. We should all work towards resolving our differences as one humanity and learn to co-exist in peace. I am an optimist and I am sure that day will come. We should give up this foolish notion that one set of people "were chosen by God" and strive to make everyone on the planet special.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#253
Kannan
January 22, 2008
09:35 AM

Hello everyone.
Have been following this discussion.
Well for starters, the battle has been epic. Ruvy fighting against almost everyone except say Kerty.
Ruvy has raised some interesting questions. Where in he has asked what should be done in Kashmir and everyone has neatly sidestepped the question as he had predicted (does not reflect too well on others).
Ruvy might be very very angry and maybe is even indulging in hyperbole, but then does he not have a point at all? He says he is living with rockets and missiles being fired. Does it not make him more aware of the situation. Easy for all of us here to make fun of him, but what if your ass is on hte line? are you going to be in the same jolly back slapping mood? Bet you will not. Please try to understand his view point. If some one is getting angry, first to understand his view point, try to calm him down. Try to undersand what he is trying to say. ALl you are doing is needlessly provoking him. Ask him what are his legitmate concerns.
And please if he expresses an opinion about the site owner, can you atleast not have below the belt comments about sycophancy. The cheapest one.
Stop calling names first .. As as a secular humanist, or whatever it is that one is here, pls stop affixing labels and try to debate. And what is with one of the editors taking sides. Anyway...who cares. Hope we do not insult anyone else like this.
Ruvy: Just hope that you dont get the impression that Indians are like this. We undertand your pain and concern too.

#254
Amit Patel
January 22, 2008
10:06 AM

Kannan,
Hello.
My question is very straight to you:
1) What can we do to stop it(The epic battle of M.E.)?
2) What sholuld we do in Kashmir?

#255
commonsense
January 22, 2008
10:43 AM

Yes, I know you knew! Guess what, when I typed in the name of that drug...I got a response from the server about using a banned word and I could not post! Initially I did write "not to be confused with Via...but I guess so much spammers use this word! :)

#256
commonsense
January 22, 2008
10:52 AM

Kannan:

""Stop calling names first .. As as a secular humanist, or whatever it is that one is here, pls stop affixing labels and try to debate. And what is with one of the editors taking sides. Anyway...who cares. Hope we do not insult anyone else like this. ""

Agree. Even though if you go back to the thread, there is an overdose of him name-calling everyone, especially me, over and over again, and I don't mean just calling me "bullshit". Plus a very arrogant, faintly colonialist "skit" he produced replete with him and his cigar etc. etc., trying to teach me how to examine his cigar from both ends. Even though I am tempted to say that he should not be surprised at the reaction he evoked, I do agree that I should not have succumbed to the temptation of reaching that level, even though I did it only right at the end. I am like many people, simply allergic to sectarianism of any shade or kind, as it only stokes the fires of more sectarianism, regardless of the social context...It was wrong of me; due credit to you for pointing that out. I don't disagree with you. As I have written a few times now, I have no malice towards Ruvy, at a personal level. Just feel sorry that humans can imbibe and spew out so much hatred against fellow humans.

#257
Anamika
January 22, 2008
10:57 AM

Kannan, I have dealt with this question that Ruvy raised in the past. This is why I ignored it.

For the past ten years, Israeli government policy has been falsely comparing the situation in Kashmir with the one in Israel. It has served them well to make links with various parties in India who have Islamophobic elements (Congress is part of this!)

Lets start by pointing out that THERE IS NO COMPARISON between Kashmir and Israel/Palestine.

Israel is a European settler colony formed with the backing colonial powers to expiate their own guilt and to maintain a western strategic launchpad in the Middle East. The Palestinians were REMOVED from their homes to form the state of Israel.

Kashmir is a region specific dispute resulting from a Partition of a colonized country. Moreover the Kashmiris live in a democratic country, elect their own leaders (however flawed our democratic process may be), and share the same rights as any other Indian citizens. That is NOT the case for Palestinians.

Moreover, the only people who "ethnically cleansed" in Kashmir are the Pandits. Slightly different case from Israel/Palestine where it is the Palestinians who suffered the naqba.

I dont offer recipes for the Middle East because that is another form of colonial arrogance. And indeed remove foreign intervention in the region and the problem shall be half-solved already. In any case, it is up to the people of the region to find solutions.

As for what should be done in Kashmir - here is an initial recipe:

1. Keep Army presence on the border but disband the corrupt and ridiculous Kashmiri police force and hand policing to IPS as in other states with officers drawn from national cadres rather than local areas.

2. Revoke article 370 and allow Kashmir to be fully integrated in to the country, including allowing Kashmiris to marry and settle in the rest of India without losing "citizenship" rights.

3. Revoking 370 means Indians from all over the country can invest in Kashmir - buying real estate, owning businesses and creating employment.

4. Develop alternative road links to ensure that there is more freedom of movement with the rest of the country which will allow Kashmiris to share in the progress of the nation.

5. As you may note, in the past five years the level of violence has dropped in Kashmir. After the Lal Masjid operation in Pakistan, the Indian army has reported large scale "exfiltration" of jihadi/mercenaries leaving Kashmir to return to Pakistan to fight there. Encourage that and make sure you seal the borders so they cant come back (hence the army of earlier point).

That is just a starting point as an initial step




#258
Amit Patel
January 22, 2008
11:21 AM

Well Said Anamika.
I agree with all 5 points.
No 5 is iffy, may not last long. Sealing border is physicaly imposible task, you know about tunnles on US-Maxican border.

#259
Man Singh
URL
January 22, 2008
11:43 AM

comonsense #234

"1. Because I am my own person?"
Agree bhai. But your this very quality should make you honest enough to gice credit to right person and ripght people for their contributions. If vedic Rishis invented `ekam sad vipra bahuda vadanti'(Truth is one explained by wisemen in different ways) or `ye api anya devtabhakta yajante shradhyapoorvakam, te api mamev kaunteya yajant vidhi[poorkakam' (those who worship any other Devata with faith, worship me also indirectly) Bhagwadgeeta chapter 9/23

Equality of all ways of worship has been well documented and practised since ancinet times in India. Opposite to it Islam and christianity preach its follwers to convert whole world to their faith.

Let's be fair to our forfathers commonsese and give due credit to them for their brilliant contribution. Is it fair to copy their ideas, translate it in to english, give a fancy name and strat claiming to be `my own'?


"2. I am allergic to sectarianism?"
That's what it should be. Nobody should be sectarian and should be bold enough to condemn all acts of crime against humanity no matter perpetrated by me or by Mohamemd the Prophet.
But are we honest enough? Most of the time we do selective criticism and attempts are made to justify crimes of others if done in the name of God or Prophethood?

`Dharma' is never a sectarian term. It includes all `non agressive sects' and ready to embrace others as well if they abandon `killing/converting others' attitude.

Theoretically even `secular humanism' is also merely another sect?

#260
kela
January 22, 2008
11:52 AM

Jews and Brahminical Hindus are the same ;both have illegally occupied foreign lands .Brahmins are the real anti-indians who connived with the British to loot India

#261
Gill
January 22, 2008
12:04 PM

Kela wrote

>>>>Jews and Brahminical Hindus are the same ;both have illegally occupied foreign lands .Brahmins are the real anti-indians who connived with the British to loot India>>>>>

Here we go again!!! same moronic verses again..

You don't have to spew your venom again and again on every thread. People already know Kela means hatred for jews and indic dharmas.Do have anything different to say?

#262
Man Singh
URL
January 22, 2008
12:10 PM

Kela #260

Your fundamentals nare very very week kela.

can you tell the readers 2000 years back how much land belonged to Muslims or Christians?

Zero because they never existed by that time.

Clearly each and every inch of land Muslims have is captured from non muslims.

Ulta Chor Kotwal ko daante?

please think before writing.

Did Mohamemd constructed Mecca or he captured from non muslims? Please enlighten the readers?

#263
kela
January 22, 2008
12:22 PM

Man Singh, lets go back 3500 years,who was owning the land and who invaded and stole?

#264
Gill
January 22, 2008
12:30 PM

Kela

Go ahead go back 3500 years and show is who and when. If you talking of AIT please give proofs to support your point from archeological finds. Not from people who are not trained archeologists and historians. Go ahead. lets expose your half-truths and lies

#265
Man Singh
URL
January 22, 2008
12:30 PM

kela #263

Yeaa. lets' go and kick out dacoits and their associates and hand over the things to their rightful owners. why not?

#266
kela
January 22, 2008
12:33 PM

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1335/Hist/fall_ind.html

#267
Man Singh
URL
January 22, 2008
12:41 PM

kela #266
1. `Arya' in Sanskrit means a noble person who does his/her duty professionally and smartly irrespective of cast creed color or way of worship and never a race?

2.Hindus Devas Ram Krishna Vinsnu are black in color curly hair like typical south India.
3. All Devis look like typical South Indian women.
4.Vedas describe Indian rivers, Indian flaura and fauna not of any foreign country
5. Conch shell(Shanks) used in Hindu worship is found in south India and not in North.
6. Sandal used in worship found in South India and not in North.
7. Roli (Kumkum) produced in South India and not in North.
8. Supari, etc all south Indian and not North.
9. Rice (South India) used in prayers not wheat produced in south.
10. Coconut produced in South India and not in North.
11. Sanskrit has alphabet of 53 letter similar in all Indian languages including Tamil while European languages have only 24-26
12. English have only 400 words common with Sanskrit, Tamil have more then 4000.
13. All rivers described in Vedas are Indian rivers. If they were foreinegers they might have described foreign rivers as Muslim invaders always described `zam xam ka Paani'
14. All Mountains described in vedic Literature are Indian. If they were foreigners they might have described foreign mountains.
15. All atronomical descriptions match with star positions on India
16. All trees, plants medicines etc described are of Indian origin

Still do you believe the lie of Aryans invasion on India? If there were

#268
kela
January 22, 2008
12:55 PM

Man singh you are typing nonsense,whereas i am posting a link which quotes from your very own vedas,why dont you try and dispute it ?

#269
Gill
January 22, 2008
01:04 PM

Kela

Where are you bringing vedas from? Iran means Aryan. So what it is your idiotic point

The official title of shah of Iran Mohmmad Reza Pahlavi was "Ayamehr" which means "Light of the Aryans"

Go get some eductaion first. And stop claiming to be an expert subjects you have no knowledge on.

You made a statement that Aryans Invaded India and destroyed so called Drvadians.

Please prove that there was ever any invasion and secondly there is even any distinct race called Dravidians. Please go and check the studies that have been done genes of north and south indian people and oops guess what it is the same genetics... they are both racially same species....



#270
kela
January 22, 2008
01:14 PM

Please direct me your latest expert findings and genetic studies are quite useless with amount of intermingling among races.
Aryan invasion link i have provided which has references from authetic records unlike your fatuous claims which totally lack credibility

#271
Ravi Kulkarni
URL
January 22, 2008
01:21 PM

This whole aryan invasion theory is pointless, even if it is true. Unlike United States or Israel, there are at present no claimants to the original Indian land. There has been so much intermingling with the indigenous people and the invaders (of all shades) that it is impossible to separate the blood so to speak.

Speaking for the other side, even if it is true, does it make Indians (and particularly hindus) any less or more than what they are? So what if we came from the central asia. That only proves that we are human, because ultimately everybody did come from Africa (or choose your favorite spot).

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#272
kela
January 22, 2008
01:25 PM

Ravi ,it has meaning when foreign Aryan Invaders have the audacity to preach to us about how we should behave and which religion we should follow

#273
commonsense
January 22, 2008
01:32 PM

Man Singh Bhai,

""Theoretically even `secular humanism' is also merely another sect?""

Thank your for your kind suggestions. However, a sect by definition excludes others, "in" and "out" group, "us" vs. "them". Secular humanism does not, not even those who are religious. It is meant for all humans and provides, theoretically and in practice (Canada and many other countries) a formula for living in relative harmony.

You might be right in pointing out to the Dharma and Indic wisdom as achieving the same goals. I don't disagree or disagree. In global times, "secular humanism" as a concept does not inflect any national origins or descent. Elements of it have been present in all societies and cultures, albeit in marginalized forms. You might say that "secular humanism" is an English term, but it is only nominally so, drained of it's Englishness so to speak. Just like English is an Indian language, and when I say it is 2008 now, it should not be interpreted as praise for Christ. The emergence of a global context (elements of it were present earlier) necessitates the use of concepts that do not alienate anyone...this is as much as I can say on this topic! No disrespect for my ancestors though. Even if I want to deny their influence on my thinking or psyche, they will influence my sub-consciously. I do not wish to make a fetish of my ancestory or lack thereof. The task is to look ahead instead of looking backward. As for my ancestors, I think they were (as most archaeologists tell us) Ethiopian...

But thanks for your feedback. Much appreciated!

I have no desire to convert you to "secular humanism", since I have not yet decided whether I should start a new religion or not :)

#274
commonsense
January 22, 2008
01:58 PM

Kannan:

"" (Ruvy) He says he is living with rockets and missiles being fired. Does it not make him more aware of the situation. Easy for all of us here to make fun of him, but what if your ass is on hte line?""

The concept of being reasonable is extended beyond reason once ideas from people like Kahane, Syed Qutub, Maulana Maududi, Togadia, Uma Bharati, David Duke etc. etc. are injected in any debate. To expect any reasonable person to be patient, "with an open mind" is unreasonable. Ruvy injected Kahane into the debate, unreasonably. He was still given a hearing. Then he claimed that the Holocaust was in part divine punishment for the Jews who were sinning in Europe. My allergy for sectarians of all sort kicked in; Ruvy is the one who in the end went ballistic, even though despite his unreasonabless (explanation of the holocaust etc. etc.) he was given a fair hearing. I am willing to pay attention to the "hear me out first" plea, but not when it comes from any of the people mentioned above, and many others of the same mindset and their supporters.

The missilies are flying not just over Ruvy's head but many others who also happen to be Jews. But he slanders them as "Yids" There is a history to it and a context to what is going on. Whatever it is that it is going on, will not be resolved by name-calling, histrionics from both sides. There are entrenched delusional people on both sides in the Middle East, and then some, as Anamika rightly points out...the global players who are in there to witness the "birth pangs of the new Middle East".

I do not put myself in Ruvy's shoes, far from it. But I will say this, and take it for what it's worth, even if you don't believe me. My allergy to sectarianism and communalism arises from my personal experience in many such situations where I have been completely baffled as to how folks who appear to be eminently reasonable on the surface will degenerate into sectarianism when conflicts of this sort heat up. To offer the excuse that well, what to do, one has to take sides, defend one's own community is of course invariably counter-productive. I don't expect any awards or medals, but my commitment to anti-sectarianism has been tested in very horrendous situations, and I might point out that I have never flinched, have suffered physically in order to go out of my say to protect those who were configured as members of the "other sect". This under duress and pressure from my own so-called community. And I will do it again, without ever even entertaining the possibility of taking a sectarian position.

Man, I do need strong medication for my chronic verbal diahhorea...but I can blame all of it on trying as hard as I can, to be sincere in my commitment to attacking sectarianism of the sort that pollutes the public sphere and demonizes others. Kahane fits into that description, as do the Maulana Maududis, Syed Qutub, Togadia, Uma Bharati, David Duke, the Christian Coalition in the US etc. etc. and no amount of arguments from them or their supporters will cut any ice with me. For me this is just commonsense, but for others it will be nonsense or bullshit..that's fine...we all have our own specific addictions...

#275
commonsense
January 22, 2008
02:03 PM

Kerty:

""Ruvy, You got first hand glimpse of how some people conduct political discourse even in a little forum about something that has very little stakes for Indians. You can well imagine what it must be like to engage in political discourse in India when one has to contend with whole leftist establishment about more immediate issues on which Indians have so much at stake. The modus operendi is the same but magnified many fold - to drive away dissenting views by all means. I hope you don't get discouraged. If you can resist the trolls and they are easy to spot, you would do fine. I look forward to many more posts from you.""

Kerty I would have agreed with you had this been a discussion that led to disagreements over the finer points of stamp collecting or the best way of grooming one's pet poodles. To claim that what was discussed has no stakes for India or Indians, well, that's just your view. It is not up to me or anyone to invite or disinvite Ruvy to post further. Cyberspace is free. Contrary to all evidence when one looks around globally and locally, the optimist in me still believes in the inherent goodness of all humans (damn, I'm begining to sound like a priest or mullah giving speeches on "How to be Good")

#276
temporal
URL
January 22, 2008
04:00 PM

k:

somethings look good in print when you read them and sound right when you hear them....BUT....not here!

over the past...(and this has been a recurring pattern)...the object of derision ups the temperature...with his diatribes, deflections and insults...and when (caught with his pants down) the temperature gets uncomfortable he lies low for some time before returning to spew the same old hatreds and diatribes...and because he cannot handle reason when it gets too hot under the collar he predictably resorts to insults...and outright delusions...[EDITED]

Stop calling names first .. As as a secular humanist, or whatever it is that one is here, pls stop affixing labels and try to debate. And what is with one of the editors taking sides.

as for editors...two things to note:

1: DC is an interactive medium and it ENCOURAGES participation by all ... readers, writers and editors.

2: all participators abide by the same comment policy

hope this helps:)

#277
commonsense
January 22, 2008
05:07 PM

Kerty wrote:

""CS

I am kind of disappointed. I was hoping that you would pick at least one or two lines from my post and run with it, to illustrate your uncommon sense, of course""

Kerty I did not intend to ignore you. I was just wrapped up in dealing with Ruvy...

To come back to your question: Since I did not appoint you in the first place, I am incapable of disappointed you. Maybe you are confusing me with someone else...commonsense is all over the place you see..

#278
Anamika
January 22, 2008
06:16 PM

Hi Kannan,
Thought about something you wrote earlier, and that I didn't deal with in my earlier post. You know I am always amazed by the level of empathy that most Indians generate for people across the globe.

You talked of how Ruvy knows what its like to live with shelling. Can I ask you to do two things: Check how many Israelis have been hurt/killed by the Qassams in the past ten years. Two, compare the number of Israeli casualties at Palestinian hands (Qassams, suicide bombings and all other attacks) vs the numbers of Palestinians killed/hurt by the Israeli forces.

The world hears more from Israel - thanks to the AIPAC and other Israeli lobby firms in US and Europe - and not from Palestinians. Qassams are "home-made" (read useless but we will keep fighting) missiles. Israel has state-of-the-art technology to counter it. Its very much like countering pebbles with dynamite. And it makes me sad that Israeli propaganda mixed with anti-Muslim prejudice has begun to blind so many Indians that we are losing our moral compass.

I grew up with shelling - my father was in the Indian army and we lived in a lot of border areas (yes, including Kashmir). But while we shelled back, we dont use weapons that cause abortions, kill children, and women (even though sometimes innocents DO die in shelling). If you told most Indian army officers that they must DELIBERATELY try to kill an entire population across our borders, you would get a large scale mutiny because they cannot imagine being part of a genocide (and yes I think this needs to be said because SOOOO many India-bashers/lefties on this board spend time and energy accusing India of all sorts of hyperbolic bullshit).

You compared Israel to India - so I want to remind you of some basic differences. Do you know of the Israeli idea of burying Palestinian resistance fighters/terrorists in pig-skins? Its meant to show how their religion can be humiliated and destroyed. NOW compare this to the Indian army arranging to bury the Pakistani dead according to proper ritual in Kargil.

When you humiliate the enemy, you shame yourself not them.

I am not a leftist - some posters here choked on their coffee when I wrote that I am a card carrying BJP member - but I am proud to belong to a nation that attempts to maintain HUMAN dignity even for the enemy. To do anything else would make me ashamed of my nation, and a nation that embarrasses me is not worth the price of my blood/sweat/tears.

And THAT my friend is the MAIN difference between Israel and India. And one that I - as an Indian - am glad that exists.

#279
Anamika
January 22, 2008
06:24 PM

Amit: Agree that no border is totally sealable but preventing infiltration is necessary to ensuring security and peace in Kashmir.

Gill/Mansingh et al: AIT has been proven as a bullshit theory with no historical evidence so anyone who brings it up to bolster/support their viewpoint is either ignorant or completely intellectually enslaved.

Temp: I just KNOW he will be back and the cycle with begin again - he will pretend to be interested in India, be all nice and "rational" and when it again comes to the wire, start spewing his nasty hatefilled bs. Sigh...

#280
temporal
URL
January 22, 2008
06:40 PM

ana:

you wrote two gems of posts here one is #278 and the other one is from a few days earlier (lazy me... i know;)) ... i needed to say this

it makes sifting through countless posts worth the while

here is a public invite...anytime you visit TO...have dinner at home

as for the monsieur ... he sent me an email with cc to aaman praising my poetry...i think...and adding i should not bother replying as he will delete it without reading...i will save him the effort;)

#281
commonsense
January 22, 2008
06:46 PM

Anamika:

""Stop calling names first .. As as a secular humanist, or whatever it is that one is here, pls stop affixing labels and try to debate. And what is with one of the editors taking sides. Anyway...who cares. Hope we do not insult anyone else like this.""

Anamika, I have no doubt that he will be back! Hard to believe, but true. I will try my best not to get involved this time! Phew! I still bristle at whatever he had to write. BTW, I agree completely that it is not upto us Indians to prescribe "solutions" for what's happening in the Middle-East...

Best,

BS (Bullshit)

#282
commonsense
January 22, 2008
08:34 PM

Oops, Anamika,

I cut and paste the wrong quote from you above #281 I meant:

""Temp: I just KNOW he will be back and the cycle with begin again - he will pretend to be interested in India, be all nice and "rational" and when it again comes to the wire, start spewing his nasty hatefilled bs. Sigh...""

Anamika, I have no doubt that he will be back! Hard to believe, but true. I will try my best not to get involved this time! Phew! I still bristle at whatever he had to write. BTW, I agree completely that it is not upto us Indians to prescribe "solutions" for what's happening in the Middle-East...

Best,

BS (Bullshit)

#283
commonsense
January 22, 2008
08:37 PM

Temporal:

""as for the monsieur ... he sent me an email with cc to aaman praising my poetry...i think...and adding i should not bother replying as he will delete it without reading...i will save him the effort;)""

perhaps I should take back my earlier apology about calling him a sycophant?

#284
smallsquirrel
January 22, 2008
11:37 PM

OK, that is done and over. can we move on and stop the gloating, please. I think there was more than enough poo slung from all sides, nah?

#285
kela
January 23, 2008
12:10 AM

AIT bullshit theory ? only someone mentally retarded and full of shit would say such things without an iota of evidence,but then thats just been the way of the hindus,they have never been known to view things with a scientfic mind,ayurveda,yoga,astrology...all gibberish with no scientific backing

#286
Anamika
January 23, 2008
12:18 AM

Temp: Thanks but it makes me really angry how Israel has been focussing its propaganda on India, and succeeding (in pockets) by playing on anti-Muslim prejudices.

And of course it makes me angry how hatred and dehumanization of Palestinians has been NORMALIZED in Israel because it takes even intelligent/educated/wonderful Israelis and gives them a moral blind spot the size of Texas.

Btw, you know back in the '65 war, India commended a Pakistani officer for gallantry. Its the only instance of an army officially honouring the enemy for courage. Its something that makes a lot of self-declared patriots in India very angry (usual stuff about how it makes India weak etc), but every Defence officer I know is very proud of that fact - because it reminds them of what I said in #279.

CS: This is exactly why I had said a few days ago that its not worth riling him up. I have a pretty accurate idea of his beliefs but having them expressed is sickening. Every time!

Btw, you know that the classical text, Sahityadarpan, says that "evil" things should not be depicted/articulated (in art not internet fora) because evil is created by articulation. I keep thinking about that - may be by "exposing" his most virulent side so publicly, you have added to the hatred? What happens when young Arabs read the stuff he has written above? Does it re-inforce their countering belief that ALL Jews are like him? Does it increase the hatred? Or "create" evil?. I don't have any answers, but just wondering...

SS: I don't think there is gloating but you are -of course - free to see it like that.

When ANYbody - regardless of religion/nation/ race etc - talks of the enemy "eating their own vomit," they overstep all lines of human conduct. So when they leave that conversation (however briefly) the predominant reaction - for me at least - is of disgust and horror and leaves no room for gloating.

#287
Anamika
January 23, 2008
12:31 AM

PS: Temp, thanks for the invite. Lets see when I get to the otherside of the pond. :-)

#288
smallsquirrel
January 23, 2008
12:34 AM

anamika... I think pretty awful things were said all the way round, which is why I stayed away from the whole thing. I am not sure it was a proud moment for anyone.

Even though some good points were brought up, on the whole I think the discussion really did hurt everyone's side of the argument.

I dunno...it all just made me sad. :(

#289
kela
January 23, 2008
12:35 AM

temporal don't forget to invite Gill and Man singh to the party..it will be one mad dinner party

#290
Ruvy in Jerusalem
January 23, 2008
01:29 AM

This [ ] is the post that I sent the liar, temporal.


[over the past...(and this has been a recurring pattern)...the object of derision ups the temperature...with his diatribes, deflections and insults...and when (caught with his pants down) the temperature gets uncomfortable he lies low for some time before returning to spew the same old hatreds and diatribes...and because he cannot handle reason when it gets too hot under the collar he predictably resorts to insults...and outright delusions...it is not possible to debate with such dementia for long as has been occurring on these pages in the past...he crawls back....and reappears to spread the same demented hatred!

The truth comes slithering out. Well, now we know what the high minded "poet" prophet at DC really thinks: and we also know why I'll definitely not be "crawling back" to demean myself any further. Don't even bother with an answer, temporal. If I see a post from you in my in-box, I'll just delete it without opening it.]

I can fight, and keep on fighting, but after a time, it becomes very wearing and hurtful. Whether that is my intent or not, is irrelevant. Words that have been said cannot be recalled. And too much has been said. In fact, it has been very hurtful, and now I must repair real damage because of my own misdirected anger - at my family.

I finally see, however, why there is so much murderous communal violence in both India and Pakistan - your customs of debate do not allow for any level of gentlemanliness or honest discourse.

This carried out to your streets, result in plenty of blood flowing. And you do not appear to value life at all in either India or Pakistan - except when lecturing Jews.

Goodbye. I'll not be around to watch you kick the dead dog around, so don't even bother. I have better things to do with my life.

#291
temporal
URL
January 23, 2008
01:46 AM

thank you and goodbye ruvy. i have nothing but wishes for health and peace for you and your family - the same wishes i have for every single family living in that region - may all of you live with equality, mutual respect and dignity. amen!

#292
kela
January 23, 2008
01:50 AM

[Edited. Conjectural]

#293
Anamika
January 23, 2008
02:14 AM

Oh for gods sakes - this is worse than Saas bhi kabhi bahu thi...just HOW long will this Israeli Diamond Coates draw out his performance?

#294
kela
January 23, 2008
02:29 AM

Conjectural ? do you even know what that means?

#295
kela
January 23, 2008
02:31 AM

[Please refrain]

#296
kela
January 23, 2008
02:53 AM

....conjecturing and deleted...

but SAAS BAHU seems fine

#297
Anamika
January 23, 2008
04:34 AM

This just in from BBC: "Thousands of Palestinians have surged into Egypt from the Gaza Strip after masked militants destroyed parts of the border wall.

Gazans rushed to buy food, fuel and other supplies that have become scarce because of an Israeli blockade..."



#298
kela
January 23, 2008
07:56 AM

we get bbc here too (_!_)

#299
Dileep Yogi
January 28, 2008
06:05 AM

# 199

"Comparing Krishna's advise to Arjuna and jehadis inspiration from Quran is absolutely absurd.

Krisha never asked Arjuna to kill his relatives for Kingdom or enforce his way of worship. Krishna's criteria was the restoration of dignity of women who was insulted in teh parlimanent of kauravas and many great grand fathers, Gurus and priests kept quite.
"



I havent tried to compare Gita with Qoran nor I have allaged that Gita promotes violence. My aim was to argue that such verses from Gota could have been misused by some Hindus to justify vioelnece but no hindu is doing this. My aim was to prove that it was not the misinterpretation of the versus behind violence in the naqme of relegion but were the versus themselves, especially in the case of Islam.

#300
Man Singh
URL
January 28, 2008
11:46 AM

Kela # 266
"http://desicritics.org/mt/mt-comments.php?mode=red&u=http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1335/Hist/fall_ind.html"

I could not find even a single refernce to vedas in this link mentioning invasion of Aryans and killing of dravidians?

"Indra as "destroyer of cities" and exterminator of dasyus." please give mandal and sukta and sklok numbers whhere Indra has beendescribed as destroyed of cities?

Yes Destroyer of Dasyus is yes. Dasyu measn thief. It never meant Dravid or anything else?
What a foolish argument are you giving kela. Don'nt make monkey of yourslef here?

"Astronomical Science used by the Vedic ritualists was taken from the Semito-Dravidian Indus valley people as these were compiled during the Indus Valley and are not referred to in the Avesta or Rig Veda."

Kela you are wrong again.

Rigveda is here to describe astronomy.

In the 5th Mandala of Rig Veda, the 40th sukta and 5th Rik, Rishi Atri describes a total solar eclipse.

Rig Veda- HYMN XL. 5.
Indra. Surya. Atri.


O Surya, when the Asura's descendant Svarbhanu, pierced thee through and through with darkness, All creatures looked like one who is bewildered, who knoweth not the place where he is standing.

Vedic astrology refers to moon's ascending node or descending node at time of potential solar eclipse as Rahu or Swarbhanu, a demon. The passage certainly describes a total solar eclipse, magically imposed by Rahu, and people and animals being scared of the solar eclipse event .The same material is expanded in Kaushitiki or Sankhyayana Brahmana. 24.4.




In this segment reference is made to eclipse occurring three days before autumnal equinox. In Vedic times, equinoxes and solstices were well understood. Devayana (period of sun motion of gods) referred to time from spring equinox to autumnal equinox when sun stayed north of equator. Pitrayana (period of ancestral sun motion) referred to time from autumnal equinox to spring equinox when sun stayed south of equator. Gradually at later periods, but still historically at an old time, the Uttaraayana (Northerly motion of sun) from winter solstice to summer solstice and Dakshinayana (Southerly motion of sun) from summer solstice to winter solstice replaced the Devayana-Pitrayana use. Atri's reference to Vishuvantam or autumnal equinox in context of Atri's solar eclipse is significant and explicit. Though Vishuvat stands for both equinoxes, the use in this context is taken to be autumnal because of beginning of Pitrayana.

Thus Atri's RV 40-5 and Sankhyayana 24-4 provide us with details of a total solar eclipse occurring three days before autumnal equinox. Is this data unique enough to retro date the solar eclipse event and Atri's time?

When European Indologists could translate and understand Rig Veda in late 1800's Atri's Solar eclipse and its astronomical implications caused a lot of excitement. Efforts were made to date the eclipse and hence Rig Veda. However, in those days without computers and precise mathematical models of sun-earth-moon motions currently available (in this present satellite era), retro dating of eclipses was difficult and results were ambiguous and unsuccessful. Dominance of Saros cycle approach resulted in too numerous solutions. B.G.Tilak, in his book Orion, describes the various efforts during his time.

Retro eclipse dating of eclipse events is a new approach to date historical events based on declared eclipses and their circumstances. Modern computer modeling of finely tuned heavenly body motion allow very precise calculation of the terrestrial eclipse times in 'Universal Time' frame. The only issue in retro dating is that there is a difference between 'Universal Time' and 'Terrestrial Time'. Because of continuously changing difference, retro dating has some uncertainty. The earth's rotation is inertial. Earths rotational momentum is always conserved, but the rotational speed varies with inertial distribution as mass on earth, which can slightly redistribute. This is similar to an ice skater changing spinning rate by inertia adjustment through hands. As the magma inside the earths core, ice ages, earthquake (like recent Indonesian Tsunami of 2005), all make miniscule changes earth's inertia. This results in changes to earth's rotational speed. Rotational speed change results in terrestrial time shifts relative to universal time. The time error is not large but can integrate to big numbers over thousands of years. This is called the delta T problem.

Kela its clear that gangs associated with foreign invaders have brainwashed you to act against the civilisational values originated fro your mpotherland and to convert to invaders ideologies. They have used lies to divide us my freind so that they can rule us.

Thye use all sorts of lies my freinds and I have exposed them.

castism wido burning and many other ill traditions in India society are by products of enslavement by landlords appointed by foriegn invaders.

let's read scriptures and contemporary literature ourselves and stop relying on transl;ations by foreign invaders and their associates.

Come back home my freind and desert the gand of foreign invaders. let's serve our motherland freely. Yes some clean may be required and we can fill the cracks my friends.

Come home kela, read your heritage yourself and not mistranslations by invaders.

You will find yourself that these invaders and their associates simply lied to you about your heritage. They lied aboiut their own principles and that's why they are demanding reservation for `dalit christians' and `dalit muslims'?

If religions of invaders ensure equality fro all how come `dalits' exists in their communities?

These invaders simply lied of `equality' to `dalits' only to convert them. Once converted nobody bothered for them.

think over it with a fresh mind. Stop translating `dasyu' as `dravid'.

Dasyu measn a thief that can be present anywhere in any community on the earth and dravid you might be knowing already.

Don'nt insult dravids by calling them dasyus kela.

#301
commonsense
January 28, 2008
11:47 AM

There is not much point comparing religious scriptures, texts, parables etc. to justify why "we" are better than "them" (the typical sectarian mindset)

As far as large-scale violence goes: any aspect of identity can be mobilized to precipitate and justify it. Through history, these have included: religion, nation, caste, class, language, "race", ethnicity, clan etc. These and other aspects of identity have been used to inflict unspeakable violence on "others". The most horrific aspect of this kind of violence is that those who engage in it actually feel good about it! Because they always dehumanize the "other" and justify their actions as something noble. When the "others" do it to "us", it is the same logic, except we as victims, complain.

There is no reason to believe that Islam or any other religion is uniquely capable of such large-scale violence. Even though post 911, this is the theme that has become dominanty. All religions, depending on the social context, can be readily deployed for such ends. For the deployment of Buddhism for violence, a fact that sounds oxymoronic, I would strongly suggest S. J. Tambiah's _Buddhism Betrayed?_ (U of Chicago Press) on Sri Lanka. The argument that well, it is hard to show the some religions encourage violence that is justified by the religion itself is misplaced. Even Islamists, use aspects of the scriptures to construct an imagined "community" and then precipitate violence. Some other religions may not be able to provide scriptural support for this kind of violence; but the point is that other humans will use nationalism, language, race, ethnicity, whatever is at hand to justify "communal violence" ie. violence on behalf of their self-proclaimed "communities". In communist China, ideological differences were used to justify it against others during the Cultural Revolution. So, the problem is not to select one particular religious, linguistic, ideological, racial, ethnic, etc. "community" and to blame it for all the ills of this world, but to impartially blame all those thekedaars, from bin Laden to whoever, who are allowed to get away with this dehumanising violence. To point out to the fact that religious violence is somehow worse than nationalist or other forms of violence is quite peculiar. In the end, religious or nationalist, linguistic or ethnic, racial or not, blood-letting is equally painful; and not just for the victims, but if you follow the logic of karma, for the perpetrators too, and for all of society and humanity.

The focus on Islam in contemporary times as the exclusive source of all violence and hatred acquires legitimacy because of 911 etc. However, I can't imagine anyone really believing that all 1 billion plus Muslims are all the time doing nothing but engaging in violence or planning it. Sure their Islamic thekedaars are, but they would not have such a rough time with their so-called co-religionists if they were really representative of everyone.

It is a great feeling to demonize "others" while justifying our own sense of self-worth, even if we commit acts of violence, but something tells me that it is not quite commonsense. Communal violence is communal violence and the endorsement of one particular community as opposed to another, does not make it any less henious.

#302
Irfan
January 28, 2008
12:14 PM

Man Singh in comment 300 says "Come back home my freind and desert the gand of foreign invaders."

What does it mean Man singh, you should take care of your language, let emotions and hate do not destroy our own respect.

#303
Man Singh
URL
January 28, 2008
12:25 PM

commonsense #301

Bhai commonsense , nobdoy can deny the argument you have produced. yes what you have said is absolutely true.

However question that remains unanswred is how to protect `villagers' being attacked perpetually by `dacoits'.

here there is no ideology clash, no religion, no commulnal, no linguistic no cast no creed no color no race involved.

Its is purely a mentality that tortures the weeker section of society.

Do you feel villagers (`us') are trying to `demonise'Others(dacoits)?

You inability to identify the victims and culprits will lead to horrible situation for the humanity. Cruels when equated with kind people will freely perpetrate their crime against humanity.

Tell me how to protect these innocent villagers enaged in agriculture and never interefer in anybody's affairs?

My solution is villagers should get organsed and beat back the dacoits and their local associates.

What's your solution commonsense bhai?

#304
commonsense
January 28, 2008
01:29 PM

Man Singh,

It is clear that despite your first para:

""Bhai commonsense , nobdoy can deny the argument you have produced. yes what you have said is absolutely true.""

contradicts everything that you say later in the same post. Hence, you are unlikely to agree with my solution. Hence, I am unlikely to let you know!

#305
Amit Patel
January 28, 2008
01:34 PM

Man Singh,
Solution is Protactive fance and rural police force.

#306
Amit Patel
January 28, 2008
01:42 PM

Unless you believe in frequent persistent preemptive strike.

#307
Amit Patel
January 28, 2008
01:55 PM

Suggestion for your party slogan mar dalo, kat dalo, tabah kar dalo......sub ko sadmati de bhagvan.

#308
Man Singh
URL
January 28, 2008
02:13 PM

commonsense # 304

Bhai mere I have agreed to your point 100%. But certain kind of events doo not fall in your description like villagers vs dacoits or innocent tribas vs assaulting missionereis.

In such cases victim and demon are very clearly defined and your formula of `us' and `others' is not applicable here unless somebody closes his/her mind. British invaders and Indian freedom fighters are well defined and `us' and `others' is never a confusion my friend.
I asked what the innocent victims do in such cases. Should they surrender to opressive forces or fight to defend their livelihood, dignity and civilisational values?

Amit Bhai #305 "Solution is Protactive fance and rural police force." is welcome step. Hope you will allow me to defend my belongings(economic and cultural) till such fence is in place and police force takes shape?

#306

"unless you believe in frequent persistent preemptive strike."

Why? if a gang of dacoits is planning to attack, should I not take pre-emptive measures to finish dacoits before they finish me?

If assaulting missioneieries are planning to take away my cultural belongings, should I not take necessary action to expose their sisnister designs and protect our belongins?

#307

"Suggestion for your party slogan mar dalo, kat dalo, tabah kar dalo......"

which party you are talking about? Did I ever brought politics in our discussion?

As I told you my freind, I represent here a poor villager or tribal of India who is under attack by dacoits and crooked missionereis and look for security to my household and cultural belongings. Police never take any action under pressure of secularism and I have been left with no option but to defend myself.

will you give me that right to defend myself and my belongings from attacking dacoits and misisoneries?

#309
Amit Patel
January 28, 2008
02:26 PM

I do not have power to grant any rights. But you can exercise all the rights given to you by "LAW OF THE LAND"

#310
Man Singh
URL
January 28, 2008
03:09 PM

Amit Bhai #309

Right to protect my belongings is a universal right. And robbing others belonging is a universal crime.

Unfortunately in Indian brand of secularism, villagers and tribals are being deprived of this this fundamental right as well. This is root cause of all sectarian violence.

Attackers and dacoits are given due protection. Human rights organisations and many `janvadi' organisations are very active to protect these invaders and dacoits.

But the moment these villagers and tribals stand up to defend their belongism , media and various other vested inteersts start demonising these victims.

I am happy to see your rational approach Amit Bhai. Please keep it up.

Don'nt for get to visit the link
http://www.sanatan.org/hussaincampaign/painting.php

And you willl find around 14 pictures of Hindu dieties painted nude. I feel them an assault on my cultural belongings .

#311
Amit Patel
January 28, 2008
03:35 PM

Man Singh,
Seems like you are not happy with "LAW OF THE LAND". And you won't be happy until you have HINDU NATION. Well just a sugestion NEPAL is a HINDU NATION. You can move to nepal for time being.
Good Luck with NEPAL.

#312
Amit Patel
January 28, 2008
03:44 PM

Man Singh,
In keeping up your philosophy of preemptive strike and bit up dacoits; you should paint Muslim & Christian deities nude. Hishab clear.

#313
Amit Patel
January 28, 2008
03:48 PM

Christian deities too?....why??
Man Singh: preemptive strike.

#314
Gill
January 28, 2008
04:42 PM

>>>NEPAL is a HINDU NATION. You can move to nepal for time being.
Good Luck with NEPAL<<<<

Sorry he can't because Nepal has been taken over by commies and the red gun rules...............

>>>you should paint Muslim & Christian deities nude. Hishab clear<<<<

Well if he does are going to protect him from Muslim and Christian "Gun" and "bullet"....... and above all from "Leftist" and "commie" bullets....lets be realistic!!!

#315
Amit Patel
January 28, 2008
04:53 PM

#314
Gill,
My point exactly, Man Singh's "Eye for an eye" approach will not work.

#316
commonsense
January 28, 2008
05:20 PM

Amit Bhai,

Best to leave Man Singh Bhai alone. His tota-maina ki kahanees would be quite harmless and even mildly entertaining at times, but for the fact that he is firmly committed to an unshakeable sectarianism.

Man Singh Bhai: I simply have to agree to disagree with you and move on. It took me so long to find out as my smajdanee (the organ that facilitates understanding) is pretty kamzor. Especially when I'm confronted with complex scenarios that involve villages, dacoits and "bakaits". I would no doubt suffer more if you introduce more complexities in your tales: such as a global village, dacoits who pretend to be angels and vice-versa....

#317
commonsense
January 28, 2008
05:42 PM

What goes for Bhai Man Singh applies for Gill Bhai too. Rather than engage with them, for me it's best to "enjoy" (in the macabre sense of the term)their commentaries as a reflection of the incredible diversity of humans that constitute global society.

#318
kerty
January 28, 2008
09:30 PM

At the root of all historical conflicts is statism - be it be wedded to religion, ideology, culture, race, language or personalities. Be it be for defending them or expanding them, be it be for creating colonies or seeking independence from them, Statism eats the cake. We have tried to solve the problem by separating religion from statism, tried to separate culture-race-language-personalities from statism - but last 2 centuries have seen more wars than all previous centuries combined. While everything else have been separated from statism, ideologies have moved into to fill the void - so now ideologies wedded to statism vie militantly to defend or expand their hegemony. America has waged savage wars for 'democracy and freedoms' beyond its borders in every decade and who can forget cold wars among ideologies while pointing pile of nukes at each other? When it comes to crime against humanity, statism has no equal. Until it is removed or tamed by separating it from business of governing people's lives, history will keep on repeating.

#319
Gill
January 28, 2008
10:01 PM

Commonsense wrote

>>>Rather than engage with them, for me it's best to "enjoy" (in the macabre sense of the term)<<<

i knew there was something sickening about you no wonder you "enjoy" macabre sense!!!!!!!

But than again oh great self-proclaimed prophet of morons !!devil and death are symbolic of your cult... So now you have a new obsession first it was Bunds and balls and now it is Macabre....

You really need help!!!!!!!!!!

#320
Freedom
January 29, 2008
08:07 AM

I am told that my great great grand ma once said that root of all evils and fights has been

Zar(money), Zoru(woman) and Zameen(land or statism as kerty calls it)...

And I find people on this forum fighting out madly, frothing and foaming, and indulging in all that intellectual masturbation, as if trying to prove to each other that they and only they know what the cause of conflicts in past/present are.

Religion (and God even if it does not exist), as I see is one of the cheapest and most economical solutions available(and ever invented) to maintain law and order in any state or society.

I wonder people who advocate against religion blaming it for all the evils have even taken into account the benefits religion has provided in terms of establishing peace and harmony in any society.

#321
Amit Patel
January 29, 2008
09:00 AM

Good Morning Freedom,
I agree with you whole heartedly, Religions have been in existent long before any ruling systems. Back then religion was the "Law and Order". All religions have evolved with one common goal to guide the society on path of "good". At the same time through out the history "bad" people have misused the religion. Sexual abuse in Catholic Church is just one of the modern examples. That does not make all catholic followers "bad". And through out the history most religious "bad" were corrected by followers within the same religion. Buddha, Sahajanandswami & Kabir are example of that in Hindu religion.
So you see this discussion is not totally out of place. Think of it as a "bug finding and fixing" procedure of software industries. Some times software bugs are so huge that engineers scrapes that version and come up with completely redesigned version of the software. Like windows 3.xx to Windows95 to Windows XP to Windows Vista.
Same way Islam came from Christianity and Christianity came from Judaism. (May not reflect the same improvement path as Windows). Buddhism and Jainism came from Hinduism.

#322
kerty
January 29, 2008
09:54 AM

Amit Khan..

What were the bugs in christianity that Islam fixed? On second thought, please spare us your infantile babble.

#323
Amit Patel
January 29, 2008
10:27 AM

Kerty MeChwan,
Read my post:
Same way Islam came from Christianity and Christianity came from Judaism. (May not reflect the same improvement path as Windows)

#324
Amit Patel
January 29, 2008
10:29 AM

You see Freedom,
When people run out of logical reasons they resort to changing your last name.

#325
Man Singh
URL
January 29, 2008
12:28 PM

Amit Bhai #311
"Seems like you are not happy with "LAW OF THE LAND". And you won't be happy until you have HINDU NATION."

Does my post mean that Amit? One thin I ma surprised why you are not interested in asking dacoits and Missioneries to stop their nonsense?

Even for once you never showed courage to attack the root of evil. yes you always make suggestions to me the victim looking for protection?

Why Amit bhai? Why you never tell Hussein to stop nonsense and attacking values of this land?

Even for once? What logic you are giving? Asking a victim to run away from his house and leave dacoits a free hand?

No Amit Bhai. It will never happen. I will do everything within my reach to beat back the agressors and their local `gaddar' and `namakharam' associates who surrendered to tehse evil forces and always take their side.


#312

"you should paint Muslim & Christian deities nude. Hishab clear"
Again your solution has two errors here

1. You are asking mne to ebcome a dacoit and agressor which I will never do. As I told you my aim is to defend my belongings and by attacking `others dieties as proposed by you' I'll become the same mean mentality person.

You are not able to differentiate between `agressor' and `defender' my freind and that's why in place of condemning the agression you are asking me to become agressor as well? Indirectly you are trying to justify the crime of agressors against humanity.

So far as pre emptive measures are concerned, do you belive security forces should wait for terrorists to attack first and then take action? Or they should be vigilant and bust the rackets of terror in the bud.


2. You are equating all muslims with Mullas and dirtyminded Hussein. It is wrong my freind. There are many Muslim painters, singers musicialns who converted to islam under force but still continued enriching the civilisation of their forfathers. I salute them and have great respect for them.

Your this post was really really unreasonable my friend. I am not for `eye fro eye' as you tried to depict my freind, I am for `justice to all'. I am for clear identification of `who is agressor' and `who is defender' and then do justice.

Most surprising thing for me is `why do not have courage to condemn the agressors?' Why Amit Bhai?

Do you support them somehow?

#326
Man Singh
URL
January 29, 2008
12:48 PM

Bhai Amit 321

Fundamental difference is that out of Budha, mahaveer, Nanak, sahajananda and Mohamemd no religious leader other then Mohammed used violence against common people to propagate his religion.

His follwers later on follwed teh same attacked country after country and used that political and economic might to convert the people.

No religious leader recommended additional economic torture on non follwers other then Mohamemd 9zaziya tax on non muslims).

No other religious leader senr thretening letters to contemporary people either to convert or face the music as Mohamemd did.

therefore you can not generalise events of all religions. All religions are Unique and suitable for a particular time and circumestances.

Those who try to impose it on whole world using political, economical and military might,are wrong, uncivilised and barbaric and should be condemned by all right thinking people.

Three ideologies fall in this category in todays world:

1. Missioneries(dun mistake for whole christianity)using economic might to convert rest of humnaity to their fold.

2. Mullas (dun mistake with all Muslims) using terror to convert whole earth to islam.

3. Communists using all fair and unfair means to capture power around the globe.

All same people should condemn such uncivilised thinking even in 21st century.

Rest of ideologies / religions are not interfereing with each other and co-staying peacefully on this earth. Hindus Budhists, Sikhs, jains, jews, Bahais, Ahmadiyas, taoism, Confucians, Paarsis and many more.

None is creating trouble other then these three gangs of Mulla missionery and communists.

#327
kerty
January 29, 2008
12:54 PM

Amit Khan..

[Edited] Please do illuminate how Islam came from Christianity. Were Mohammad and his band of bandits secretly christians? What did they plagiarize Koran from Bible? Please bare us your IQ. On second thought, stick to parroting mindless slogans and cliches like a pothi pandit - they do not require using your own brain or having any common sense or knowledge.

#328
Man Singh
URL
January 29, 2008
01:31 PM

#302 Irfan Bhai
I am sorry. It was a typo. Please read `gang of foreign invaders."

My apology to all readers.

#329
Amit Patel
January 29, 2008
02:24 PM

Ketry # 327,
Ok that shows that I am not a Khan and do not have knowledge of Islam.
But the massage is religions have to evolve. And it is responsibility of the followers to find the bugs and fix them. FORD engineers should not attempt to fix bugs in GM design.

#330
Amit Patel
January 29, 2008
02:40 PM

Test

#331
Amit Patel
January 29, 2008
03:10 PM

Ketry # 327,
Ok that shows that I am not a Khan and do not have knowledge of Islam.
But the massage is religions have to evolve. And it is responsibility of the followers to find the bugs and fix them. FORD engineers should not attempt to fix bugs in GM design.

#332
kerty
January 29, 2008
03:37 PM

AMit Khan..

What do we do if GM engineers refuse to evolve it design or fix its bugs because they think their design is perfect and yet their design continue to wreck the roadways and innocents? Do its victims have any rights or must suffer in silence? Millions of non-moslems have fallen victim through out history - millions of Hindus during creation of Pure land of Pakistan, and again during independence of BD, and again in Kashmir, and yet another bloody Islamic partition of India is staring in the face of India, give or take few decades. They are all failures of ideologies and approaches you seem to tout that have falsely posed to have a lofty vision that can moderate and reconcile Islam within India - but in reality, they have done just the opposite - condone and appease most virulent form of Islam and ideologically profit from confrontation that Islam creates within India. That sounds like snake-oil salesman taking people to be fools. No more. Islam unfortunately understands only one language - language of superior force, shock and owe. And that is the language it will receive in India if its engineers refuse to fix its bugs.

#333
Man Singh
URL
January 29, 2008
03:39 PM

Amit Bhai # 331

Khan is noway related to islam my freind. pathans when beaten badly by Budhist Chengis Khan adopted the title of this invader. Khan in Mongolian language means `king'.

Mongolians themselves get amused how come so many `kings' can exist in india paikstan and Afganistan.

You know Khan is a symbol of slavery, a reminder that your forfathers were beaten badly by invaders.

So its good that you are not Khan.

Religions evolve in India my friend. new Avatars and saints came to fix the problem that that's why Indian religions are in almost full harmony (small aberations are seen though) as new saints never captured others places of worship rather built up their own.

Opposite to it, Israel centered religions are never evolutionery. they are `revealed' religions and all of them claim themselves to be `only true religion' and `only way to heaven' and hence capturing others property and souls are part and parcel of their ideology.

That's why Muhammed never built his own mosque, he attacked mecca and captured the pagan temple, destroyed some parts and ...

This fundamental difference between Indian religions and Israel centric religions has be understood by Indians and then only they can visualise how to treat `agressors' and `victims' appropriately.

#334
commonsense
January 29, 2008
03:46 PM

Kerty wrote:

""Islam unfortunately understands only one language - language of superior force, shock and owe. And that is the language it will receive in India if its engineers refuse to fix its bugs.""

I know hate speech when I see it...

#335
commonsense
January 29, 2008
03:53 PM

Kerty:

Kerty wrote:

""Islam unfortunately understands only one language - language of superior force, shock and owe. And that is the language it will receive in India if its engineers refuse to fix its bugs.""

Quite unfortunate. Like many others here, your posts made occasional sense. And now you cut to the chase with with this wile hate-speech and threat...sad! While others point to Islamists and the thekedaars of Islam, you are happy to conflate the two and tarnish an entire community. Quite sad...

#336
commonsense
January 29, 2008
04:03 PM

Man Singh:

""This fundamental difference between Indian religions and Israel centric religions has be understood by Indians and then only they can visualise how to treat `agressors' and `victims' appropriately.""

Not that I'm the only one to notice this, but this is quite unfortunate too...albeit not an uncommon sentiment...pretty sad specimens of humanity, even though, as the cliche goes, it does take all types to make this world.

#337
Man Singh
URL
January 29, 2008
04:14 PM

Bhai Commonse # 336

"it does take all types to make this worldnse "

yes you are right. In spite of that a wiseman will be selective in choosing his frineds among all.

Snakes, scorpions, wolfs etc are also part of creation and without them creation is incomplete.

dacoits, rapists, looters , murderers are also part of humanity and without them humanity will be incomplete.

For the sake of completeness is fine.
For the sake of rehabilitating them is fine.
For the sake of educating them is fine.

But for the sake of getting looted by them, only fools will do. We Indians are doing this mistake and getting looted cheated insulted by them.

This mentality of Indians makes dirty minded Hssein to paint sumbold of respect in nude.

They dare to do so only because they go unpunished by law. For sure if situation goes on my fried, frustrated majority will take law in its hand and beat back the devil.

This is ground reality my freind theoretically sould to be rude though. I admit.

But in absense of compasancy by law enforcement agencies and greed of votes by politicians goes, it can'nt be stopped.

Sorry state though my freind and nobody likes it happen.

#338
Amit Patel
January 29, 2008
04:14 PM

#332 Kerty:
"Islam unfortunately understands only one language - language of superior force, shock and owe. And that is the language it will receive in India if its engineers refuse to fix its bugs."

Amit: I have heard this cry many times before. So you suggest what the world should do with Islam within their own countries? ( Per you Islam is the problem and Islam is in many countries around the world.) Should they use shock and owe on internal Islam too. After 9/11 USA has done "shock and owe" to selected Islam out side the USA, but you would do the same ti Islam in US too?

#339
Man Singh
URL
January 29, 2008
04:23 PM

Amit Bhai # 338

Problem is with Mullaism and not Islam. problem is with Missioneries and not christians.

tendency of agression by Mullas and missioneries is the root of all religious conflicts my freind.

Mulla and missionery have to learn to respect all religions and one their minds get depoisoned, they will stop interefering in other religions.

problem is solves.

Freedom of religion will still prevail my frteind. People interested in their ideology will apprach them and convert opposite to todays trend that mulla and missionery are using brainwashing, lies, money, muscle and marriage to buy new converts and as such creating unrest in society.

let's identify teh culprits and depoison their minds.

#340
Amit Patel
January 29, 2008
04:39 PM

Another religious violance incident in Ahmedabad Yesterday.
Here is the link (in gujarati news paper)
http://www.gujaratsamachar.com/gsa/20080130/guj/gujarat/news1_02.html

#341
kerty
January 29, 2008
04:46 PM

CS

I could have sugar-coated it, but I prefer Indians to be health-conscious being disproportionately prone to diabetes.

#342
commonsense
January 29, 2008
04:50 PM

the sounds of sad silence...

#343
Man Singh
URL
January 29, 2008
04:52 PM

Amit Bhai #340

Such events will occur for sure my freind untill Indians will keep on equating `thief' and `dacoits'.

To beat back dacoits only way is to

1. identify them
2. arrest then and bring them to justice
3. rehabilitate those who wich to do so
4. reward the youth shunning them

Otherwise such nonsense will continue for ever my friends though nobody likes it.

It sounds to be unpolihsed a statement. But this is ground reality. Indian establishment is treating `agressors' and `defenders' with same rod and problems ....

#344
commonsense
January 29, 2008
05:16 PM

332 Kerty:
"Islam unfortunately understands only one language - language of superior force, shock and owe. And that is the language it will receive in India if its engineers refuse to fix its bugs."

Will the editors email someone privately to check if this is hate-speech or not? It seems like an unambiguous statement...but I guess in a post911 world, the whole community is fair game?

#345
Man Singh
URL
January 29, 2008
05:24 PM

commonsense # 344

Bhai commonsense kerty is praising Islam and its might.

what's so hateful in it?

This formula is applicable on every `political cult masked in the name of religion'.

islam definietly is a political ideology and do not deserve to be called a religion as its founder establsihed an empire religions was already there in place.

All fights between shia and sunni has been for caliphate only and masked by religion.

#346
Morris
January 29, 2008
06:01 PM

Islam is fastest growing religion in the world. Followers of Islam consider that as proof that all is well. But serious thinkers do know that all is not well. Every once in a while one here and one there is breaking ranks and speeaking loudly about need for reforms. Hopefully sanity will prevail.

Unfortunately, Mohammed made very difficult to tinker with the religion. He said that he is THE last prophet and these are his final words. His words are not that clear. Contradictory confusing at times speaking of peace and no compulsion other times force and violence. So I am not sure how they can reform this religion. Only thing we can hope and pray that a powerful but sainly leader will emerge from among them who could lead them to a new direction. Conflicts and violence will continue with or withou Islam, but Islam will add a lot of fuel to it.

#347
bd
URL
January 29, 2008
06:25 PM

I keep on bumping into this claim that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. There is NO data available ANYWHERE in the world to confirm that statement. Nowhere.

Here, take a look at the wiki page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion

And for those who point to Muslim fertility rates, check out this bit, (yes I know they are not all Muslims and yes, I know they are not Arabs)

http://www.metimes.com/Editorial/2008/01/25/editorial_mideast_fertility_rates_plunge/6336/

#348
commonsense
January 29, 2008
07:07 PM

Morris:

""Only thing we can hope and pray that a powerful but sainly leader will emerge from among them who could lead them to a new direction.""

Only thing I can hope (since I have never prayed in my life, even as a kid!) is that all states will take a tough, no-nonsense secular approach, as has been tried in Turkey, despite the challenges to it recently. As in, provide absolutely no space for Islam (or any religion for that matter)in the realm of PUBLIC POLICY, not iffs and no butts! Whatever happened historically, happened. No need to pander to these blood-thirsty mullahs who clamour for power and their supporters, whoever they might be. Unless religions are completely excluded from public policy/laws that apply to all citizens, regardless of religious affiliation or beliefs, there will never be any "chain" (peace) in this world...of course there will always be other causes of conflict, but at least one major cause would have been neutered...

#349
Amit Patel
January 29, 2008
07:25 PM

#343
Man Singh,
I assume that you have read the article linked in #340. It is very difficult to decide who is decoit in this case.
Link:
http://www.gujaratsamachar.com/gsa/20080130/guj/gujarat/news1_02.html

#350
Morris
January 29, 2008
08:11 PM

CS
All states? Turkey is one of many. Powerful forces are acting in the opposite direction in many others. Turkey too is still in tansition. They have to rely on army to stay secular. That is not the way democracy works. They are still not there. Find some more examples, please. You have a lot of muslim countries to choose from. I stick to my prayer.

bd
Like you, I too heard this so many times so assumed to be so. I also heard that there will be more muslims than chritians within the next 10 years or so. Am I wrong there too?

#351
commonsense
January 29, 2008
08:22 PM

Morris,

Yes, at the moment, Turkey is almost buckling under the strain...hopefully the army will not have to step in...Malaysia and Indonesia are possibilities in the future, but there too the Islamists are spoiling for a fight and, in the case of Malaysia, actually control a couple of provinces....hmm...from a secularist perspective, it looks pretty dismal...perhaps send all the Islamists/Jehadists to the moon, with the von Siffers? That's not too democratic either, is it?

#352
Gill
January 30, 2008
08:29 AM

Morris wrote

>>>Islam is fastest growing religion in the world.<<<

This is not a correct statement, it was more of a propaganda Islamists started using since 80's. This statement is not valid anymore because it was based on unreliable claims and rumors.

We can also say Buddhism is the fastest growing religion because as per Australian Stats it grew over 79 % in Australia from 1996 to 2001

Hinduism in Australia from 1991 to 2006 has grown 193 %.

Does that make them the fastest growing religion???

Similarly Islam happened to be growing very fast in Europe due to immigration.

Secondly Islam has the highest birth rate everywhere.

If you are talking of conversions it is still Christianity that is converting most people across the globe

We need to be very careful as to what Islamists say because similar to commies they are also propaganda experts and masters in spreading rumors as facts.

#353
Man Singh
URL
January 30, 2008
11:34 AM

Amit # 349

Amit Bhai , my views are more then clear my freind. anybody engaged in crimes against humanity need to be punished.

Anybody acting as dacoit need to be beaten back irrespectice of cast creed color or religion.

problem start when law enforcement agencies under influence of politicians hesitate to take action against criminals on religious lines.

Look the case of MH Hussein and Mohammed Afjal where law enforcement agencies act like spineless chikens and show their braveness in putting Taslima under house arrest, ban salman Rushdie or da Vinchi Code.

Yes the same governmnet hesitates in banning Zakir Nayak's website spreading lies bout native cultures. I am surprised hos such jokers like Zakir can be tolerated by civil society of India.

This man says Sumati = Amina
Vishnu Bhagat = Abdulla
Marusthal = Saudi Arabia
Susharma = Mohammed
Matreya = Mohammed

all white lies. Not even a single truth. Don'nt you feel a man declaring Islam profesied in Hindu scriptures based on such lies is nothing but conman.

But Can Govt of India punish such rascal?

No. But when some hurt village youth will beat back this demon, all secularists and minorityists and human rightists will strat beating their breast. Now everybody is keeping quite?

I have given you a simple example how conman missioneries and mullas are attacking India and its civilisational values.

You tell me clearly if you are with these Mullas and Missioneries attacking Indian civilisation with lies or you are with Indians struggling to defend their heritage? tell clearly in whose side you are Amit? Are you with invaders and their associates or you are with Indians trying to protect their material and cultural belongings from tehse invading conmen?

#354
Amit Patel
January 30, 2008
11:37 AM

#353
Man Singh
In #349 I am only asking if you have read the article? That's all. Cause it is in Gujarati!

#355
Man Singh
URL
January 30, 2008
11:38 AM

Morris & Gill #349 & 350

You have to understand Mullas way of counting. They count only who converted to Islam and never count who abandoned Islam?

Their estimate was based on rate of growth of presence in Mosques after 9/11 and not based on any official survey.

Many whites convert fro few months brainwashed by sweet preaching and humanised form of Mo.

But the moment they start reading and studying things themselves, they realise the mistake and abandon the next day. these deserters are never counted. `fastest growing' is just a confidence building gimmic being played.

#356
Amit Patel
January 30, 2008
11:44 AM

#353
Man Singh,
Now to answer youe question: "whose side you are Amit?"
Just like I am fan of my Mother Land INDIA, I am on the side of "LAW AND ORDER".

#357
Amit Patel
January 30, 2008
11:45 AM

And I hope You are too!

#358
Man Singh
URL
January 30, 2008
11:57 AM

Amit Bhai # 356

Normal circumetances I am with law and order like you.

When I find law itslef is damaging my motherland , my heritage and helping invaders and agressors due to greed of votes, I am not with law but with motherland and my heritage.

What you will do in such emergencies Amit Bhai?

#359
Amit Patel
January 30, 2008
12:41 PM

#358
Man Singh,
"What you will do in such emergencies Amit Bhai?"

Amit:
In case of real emergencies, President & PM can use emergencie rule.

#360
commonsense
January 30, 2008
12:46 PM

amit,

back to the thekedaari issue. in this case, of an entire nation and civilization...



#361
Man Singh
URL
January 30, 2008
01:06 PM

Amit Patel #359

"In case of real emergencies, President & PM can use emergencie rule."

Ultimately you will do nothing even if the country is sold out to foreign invaders by Meerjafar prime Minsiter and jaichand presdent?

This is exactly where we have the differences my freind.

When I realise that president and prime Minister are also become `gaddar' and `namakharam' I'll do everything possible withing my reach to defend the nation (people land and its heritage).

Hope you will follw the same line of action when village youth beat back the dacoits. Hope you will not react and will wait for president and prime minister to use emergency rule.

Then why are we complaining here against Modi and many otehrs? let prime Minsiter and President deal with Modis also? isn'nt it fair Amit bhai? We should not use double standard now.

If you want president and prime Minsiter to deal with invaders and their associates, better leave a accused modi also to their mercy and stop complaining .

Bhai commonsense it is not thekedari. In your opinion even Netaji and Bhagat Singh also might be `thekedars' of nation or civilisation?

All great freedom fighters will be thekedars in your opinion? Those all who died for the nation and those who `live' for the nation are thekedars?

No commonsense bhai. Theer are some people above political gain and loss. Yes sometime they affect politics only to use it to achive their aim of all round glory to motherland, nation and whole humanity.



#362
Amit Patel
January 30, 2008
01:06 PM

CS:
thekedaari! without any one signing off on theka either.

#363
commonsense
January 30, 2008
04:08 PM

Amit,

I have now read enough about "dacoits" to feel confident enough to get a B.A. (Dishonourable) in Prevention of Dacoity Studies at the University of Tota and Maina. Might as well do it otherwise all the knowledge accumulated here will be wasted...

#364
Man Singh
URL
January 30, 2008
04:24 PM

commonsense # 363

Bhai commonsense and Amit Bhai

commonsense can not be developed by sitting in internet. You have to have a feel of ground reality. If you people are sitting in America, please try to mix up with aboriginal native communities who has been made drug addict by invaders and now same invaders and their asociates call them backwards and useless fellow. what an irony?

Whole mexical civilisation has destroyed and so is South american Incas and aztecs. lands grabed temples destroyed holy books burnt people enslaved or converted.

feel it my freinds the torture these natives suffered at hand of their foreign masters. Yes many of them associated with invaders and are enjoying material benefits.

Columbus is responsible for death of around 3 million natives of America along with unlimited conversions to christianity.

Their children was snatched awy by church at time of birth and brought up as christians as orphans and as a results whole generations forgot how to bring up kids.

Now same rascals call names to these natives and say that they are uncivilsed and do not know how to bring up kid and laught at them. What a shame?

They tried same in India also. Formula partially worked. their associates are found here in this discussion room as well supporting inhuman acts of invaders. Isn'nt it?

have a first hand experince my freinds, vist Australian Aboriginals and Maoris of Newzealand to know the real face of invaders.

These invaders and their associates are active even today my freinds and efforts of those who are spreading awareness about the designs of such invaders need to be appreciated and not condemned.

Myself being a village boy have faced such troubles and that's why my bitter memories make me a fighter against agression of any kind.

Our people are as sweet a ssugar to those who behave sensibly and share mutual respect.

Those who call us `devil worshipers' and riducle our values deserve only limited forgiveness and absolute one.

Enough is enough. Agressors have croosed all limits of our tolerance and will be beaten back where found interfereing our affairs.

They should learn to `live' and `let live'

#365
commonsense
January 30, 2008
04:32 PM

Amit Sahab,

Come to think of it, I will get a degree in Native Studies too, from Tota Maina University of course...

#366
Man Singh
URL
January 30, 2008
06:41 PM

That's where the problem arises commonsense and Amit Bhai.

you are trying to close your mind intentionally from understanding native point of view.

Truth comes out soon my freind. If somebody wants to keep him/herself in darkness, its upto him/her.

Still to understand native point of view a sincere seeker of knowledge will definitely try to study the rational history (not hunters view) of Pagan Arabs and how barbaric new religion destroyed that peaceful culture who never used violence againt Mo in spite of Mo's perpetual offence to their values.

History of natives of Noth and South america's and how church's cruelty destroyed their civilisations.

History of Australian aboriginals and maori culture of newzealand and of course of torture on Hindus/Budhists/Sikhs/jains of India by invaders and their associates.

have a feeling after reading this `stolen generation' news?
http://www.unpo.org/article.php?id=7515

#367
Amit Patel
January 30, 2008
08:25 PM

Commonsense,
Not until other professors return from break and bless you with their knowledge.

#368
Amit Patel
January 30, 2008
08:43 PM

Bhai Man Singh,
What is your take on American invetion of moon?
Do you offer PhD on that subject?

#369
commonsense
January 31, 2008
01:28 AM

Sir Man Singh,

I am Hiroshi Matsumoto from Japan (in Japan we call Japan, Nihon, but the demon imperialists have given us this name called Japan). Thank you for giving me good ideas about how to get rid of religions and cultures that have not originated in our own soil. As you know, Buddhism came to Japan from your country. In fact, as you well know, it originally came from Nepal, to your country, then to China, from where it seeped into my country called Nihon. This is a major problem as my ancestors were real village people who did not know how to deal with such demons (in Japanese we call demons "kami" which also means spirit). You know our buddhist temples are called "tera" which is similar to your hindi "dera". Everywhere I go in my countryside, I am confronted by huge statues of the alien, not-from-my-soil Buddha. Some brainwashed Japanese (Nihon-jin in my language) worship him and build very large statues of him, called "Dai Butsu" (big buddha). This is all very upsetting for me since I believe in preserving my original religion and culture, that grew from our own soil and that has not been corrupted by alien, not-from-my-soil ideas. Some brainwashed, lackey Japanese claim that Buddhism is not so different from Shintoism. I know that you know better. However I am not blaming only India for Buddhism. It is our fault that we could not keep these dacoits out. We were not masculine enough to fight back and our pseudo-secular leaders let them in under the pretext of human rights etc. etc. Can you believe it, but I cannot write my language without using Chinese characters (we call them "kanji" in Nihongo. Even katakana and hiragana are derived from Chinese!). In fact we cannot write at all, unless we use real or derived Chinese characters. And our syntax is quite close to North Indian languages. Thus instead of the English syntax, eg. "where is the toilet?", we use the Hindi syntax. ie "sandas kahan hai?". In English this would be "Toilet where is?". So, in Japanese, we actually say, like Hindi, "O-toiret wa, doko desu ka?". Not only religion and language. Our architecture is also derived from China. And then after the war, the Yankees came and forced Western culture on us. We are really, really confused, since nobody seems to be practising real Japanese culture. Even everybody claims we are unique in this world and have not been McDonaldized. This is really depressing. But I have heard, through Amit Bhai and other good people like Commonsense on DC, that you are an expert at getting rid of alien cultural influences imported through dacoits. They also tell me that you are a simple village boy who has fought off many dacoits, even dacoits like Kela on the internet. I do sincerely hope that you will also help us in purifying our pure Nihonjin culture, so that we may retain our dignity and pride. On behalf of all the Japanese people, I beg you to help us. However, please do not let the indigenous Ainu know anything about it. If you do, they will be busting my bund and perhaps yours too, since we have unfortunately busted their bunds in the past.

Thank you for your help. Hope to hear from your at your convenience, since I am sure you are busy fighting off dacoits in an American village somewhere, perhaps Texas?

Arigato goozaimasu Man Singh-san. Watashi wa nihonjin desu ga, anata-wa Indo-jin desu. Indo wa tottemo sugohi o-kuni desu neh! Ninhon wa tottemo warui desu. Gomen-ne, taskette kudasai! Onegai shimau!

Hiroshi Matsumoto

#370
Man Singh
URL
January 31, 2008
11:39 AM

Bhai Hirosi Matsumoto,

Thanks you very much for your message. I am really moved by your deep love for your japanese civilisational values and dedication to protect, preserve and propagate it. Culture of the soil brings a natural completeness to all human beings and even animals and ensures the complete tranquility. This fact was realised by my Indian forfathers around 5000 years ago and Lord Krishna advised to humanity that ` a human being should never abandon his/her natural Dharma as alient dharma is always brings fear and uncertainty. Chapter 3/shloka 35.

Therefore our forfathers , though very open minded in enriching our own culture from inputs from any part of teh world, they never abandoned their own. They respecetd and got benefited from other cultures as well but equally respecetd their own. They helped others also to enrich their culture without destroying theirs.

As per my understanding of Shintoism , it is a form of Hinduism. Hinduism was the Dharma given to humanity at the time of creation itself. Before great war of Mahabharat around 5000 years ago, whole humanity follwed this original dharma revealed by creator himself at the time of creation to humanity. Therefore Shintoism is natural dhrama of japanese.

As I highlighted India tradition of sharing the knowledge always went through Saintly people who did not have a single penny in their pocket or an army to attack others. These Budhist saints traveleld around the globe to share the knowledge and never acted like `dacoits'. How a armless, pennyless person can harm anybody. Therefore such armless pennyless familyless people can not be called `dacoits' my freind. They simply are spritual teachers enabling humanity to see God and lead a happy life.

Have you any instances in japenese history when Budhists Monks attacked japan with military, economic or political might and destroyed Shinto temples, killed converted or enslaved japanese for not converting to Budhism? Is theer any instances when Budhists imposed additional taxes on non Budhists to give japanese an economic torture? I never heard that. Please share if you have such instances in japanese History.

Yes there are certain dark pages of history where religious people used economic, political and military might to propagate their religions and culture and exploited the natives.

Look how Islam eneterd India when Mohammed Bin Qassim attacked Sindh with Army and arms, killed the king of Sindh using all fair/unfair means , killed converted or enslaved man women and children, destroyed the temples of natives.

Look how christianity enetered in India and many other parts of the world as 4th arm of imperialist army and tortured natives for not converting to their faith. How children of natives were snatched away from their mothers and brought up as orphans in churches as christians in the most inhuman way.

Such agressions definitely fall in category of `dacoity' and need due treatment.

Bhai Hiroshi, you seems to be quite educated person and I am sure you have enough commonsense to differentiate between

1. Invaders attacking India with military, economic and political might , destroying native places of worship, killing converting and enslaving native man women and children.

And

2. And japanese students coming to India for studying sprituality, inviting their professors on lecture tours to japans, organising international conferences and thus enriching Shintoism (later on named as Budhism by people of divisive mentality)

In my opinion first catergory falls in the category of `dacoity' and `goondagardy' and need to be eliminated from civil society while second is the most civilised way of sharing knowledge as being done by scientific community today.

We can see people like `harekrishnas' sharing spritual wealth of India all over the globe without hiding any thing or using coercive means, without `converting'anybody. They say openly that they are `harekrishnas' sharing Indian methods of `seeing God' opposite to it you will find christian missioneries hiding themselves under mask of `education' and `health' with a motive of `converting others' and destroying native cultures.

Hope you being an educated person might have noticed the difference between two seemingly similar phenomenon but having great difference.

Attack, kill and convert or enslave VS study in University, invite professors on lecture tours and participate in internation conference on spritiuality.

can you see the difference?

First category attack kill and convert is Adharma and second part is Dharma without disturbing native way of life.

Please share if Budhists from India/nepal have ever attacked japan, Killed or converted Shinto people, destroyed Shinto temples and looted them?

I will be the first person to condemn such henous crimes against humanity and will do everything within my reach to restore the gidnity of native culture and civilisational values of japan.

Indians have great respect for knowledge since time immemorial and have alsways shared it with world as knowledge has been describes as best form of wealth.

na rajharyam , na chor haryam , na bhratrabhajyam, na bharkarm.

vyaye krite vardhate nityam Vidya dhanam sarva pradhanam.

(Knowledge is best form of wealth. It can not be confiscated by king, it can not be stolen by dacoits, it is not divided among siblings, it doesn cause any weight, and it increases by sharing)

So Hiroshi Bhai please share the knowledge. let's condemn those who use uncivilised ways of `attack kill and convert' ideology even in 21st century. These are real `dacoits'and anybody who did it to japan, deserve condemnation and beating back.

#371
blokesablogin
January 31, 2008
02:16 PM

Whoa- the resurrection of an ancient post! talk of rebirth, reincarnation!! This certainly proves it. Our friend CS brings an intriguing perspective about Buddha in Japan. Let me share what happened last week when an american friend asked me about Buddhism in India. I said, for many of us, the Buddha is an avatar of Vishnu. I personally dont view "Buddhism" as separate from the Upanishadic philosophy. Likewise, Jainism, likewise Sikkism where Ik onkar sat naam is the crux of the matter.

The beauty about Shintoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism even Judaism etc. are that, we can be "members' of all these faiths at the same time- in essence! There is no "conversion" issue as the basic tenet of these "religions" is about knowing who you are! The rituals differ owing to geographic and linguistic differences. Only the Chritian and Islamic mandates demand a "count" and therefore conversion.

Starting from the crusades, these two ideologies of "monopolies" could never accept diversity let alone comprehend it. Even this issue can be laid at the doorstep of military power in search of economic prosperity. The cold, unfriendly terrain of England needed food, cheap food and the only way they could get people to legitimately fight was in the name of religion. I think, as a human race we have advanced tecnologically enough to get food without fighting for it. It is now time to move onto sharing our food that we have in excess in certain pockets. If there needs to be a fight, let us fight over who wants to GIVE more!

#372
commonsense
January 31, 2008
02:44 PM

Sri Man Singh,

I am indeed enlightened now. I had no idea that Shintoism is actually Hinduism and Buddhism is also the same. I am at the same time also getting a bit confused as to why these different labels are being used if they are the same. Maybe because the same generic drug but different brand names. Yes, that must be it? I am more confused then as to why a new brand called Buddhism emerged in the first place? Was there a problem with the existing brand? Perhaps the people were not able to digest it? It's getting a bit confusing. Perhaps because I have read too much about Confucious and that has naturally confused me? Or maybe because I am simply secular with a particular liking for Buddhism? Then I get more confused why we needed another brand-named drug called Buddhism that did not originate from our very own soil as did rice paddy (called "gohan" in my language). Please do not misunderstand me since, as a secular Buddhist of sorts I accept change and do not get too much perturbed by it since change is permanent. And those who use violence for change will have to reckon with their own karma. Or do you recommend that I ignore the law of my land, ignore the police, judiciary etc. and sub-contract you to deal with any dacoity. All very, very confusing...It will take me a life-time to sort all this out.

And then there is the fact that my own people, despite their adherence to what you call Hinduism but we in our ignorance prefer to call Shinto and Buddhism, brutalized parts of China (the rape of Nanjing), colonized Korea, brought Koreans as slave-labour to Japan where they still live and are treated like shit (in my language, "kuso"); as you well know we even colonized Singapore for a couple of years and almost made it to India, not through seminars and lectures in universities, but through brutal bloodshed. We did biological experiments on humans. A certain Dr. Ishi surpassed all imaginable brutality on this score. All this despite the fact that we were never attacked by any imperialist demons nor ever colonized. On the contrary we were the colonizers. Ask any Korean friend or some Chinese who remember all this. I am all very confused as to why my forefathers allowed all this to happen when indeed we always followed a very peaceful, tolerant religion that should have put the brakes on such intolerant, brutal, inhuman activities. I am confused.

However, thank you for enlightening me about the fact that all my Shinto friends are in reality Hindus; and the same is the case with my Buddhist friends too. They might childishly complain about conceptual and spiritual imperialism, but this is what children ("kodomo" in my language) do: act childish. I am sure they will grow up one day and realize that they are actually Hindus, even though they do not yet know this. I will break this gently to them.

Since sir you are an expert on fighting dacoits, do you have a private militia at your disposal? Words alone may not do the trick with dacoits.

Domo arrigato goozaimashta. (Sincere thanks) Man Singh-san anata-no ataama ga ii desyo, sugoih des yo. (Man Singh-ji, your thinking is great and amazing). Amerika-wa sundey imaska? Amerika ga suki des-ka? Nani ga Indo-wa sunde imasen kara? (I am a bit disappointed though that you do not live in India. Do you like Americal so much?)Kotoshi mo, do zo yoroshiko (Regardless, all through this year, please continue to think of me). Ja mata! (Informal "bye" as opposed to the formal "sayonara")

#373
commonsense
January 31, 2008
05:26 PM

Meenakshi wrote:

""The beauty about Shintoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism even Judaism etc. are that, we can be "members' of all these faiths at the same time- in essence! There is no "conversion" issue as the basic tenet of these "religions" is about knowing who you are!""

Um...err..splutter...as in wondering whether Dr. Ambedkar, wherever he might be, has an internet connection, and if he does, does he know about DC? Was his conversion just a storm in the religious tea-cup or he did not feel that he was a member of this warm and fuzzy family?...mmm..err..splutter...gag...

#374
Man Singh
URL
January 31, 2008
06:41 PM

Commonsense # 372

Bhai commonsense dimag ko khologe nahi to confusion hi badhega.

let me summerise all your confusions:

1. Why new brand of Hinduism is given a different name at all.

Answre : It is `divide and rule' my freind. Before 1871 census of India by British (in the light of 1857 kranti), Hindus Sikhs Jains Budhists were never counted separately.

Budha never gave any name to his teachings

So didn'nt Mahaveer or Nanak

They all used word `Dharma'

Separate Brand names were used by divisive minds and not by its follwers. Those who gave names and divided humanity based on way of worship will be able to answer you better. We always clasified humanity based on `Guna' and `karma' as Chemists classify elements based on properties and characterstics.

2. Your second confusion is why japanese enslaved Koreans Chineses and Singapore in spite of being Budhists or Shintoism?

My answer : they did Adharma and never inspired by Dharma. Didi Ishi or any other ww2 associate ever told you that they are fighting ww2 to spread Budhsim or Shintoism?

Opposite to it, starting from Mohamemd himself, Mohammed Bin Qassim, mahmud Gajanavi, Gaury, taimur, Babur, Abdali Aurangjeb they very clearly put in writing that purpose of their expeditions is spread of religion. Columbus and vasco de Gama's bussiness greed and religion were a mixed lot.

I am surprised to see you being unable to differentiate between `crime against humanity' to please Allah and crime against humanity to please a King of japan (not Budha).

Yes Both are wrong, both are Adharma and both need to be condemned in strongest possible terms and deserve to be beaten back. At least a secular person will condemn all crimes against humanity not matter perpetrated by King of Japan for satisfaction of his own ego or Muslim faithfulls plundering India to satidfy allah.

3. Third confusion is if I have a militia? No my freind. I am a village boy. We get united whenever dacots attacks reach beyong bearable point.

4. Your 4th confusion is that I am living America. I do not know from where you got it. I am an Inspection Engineer (Structural originally) and keep on roaming around the Globe. May native village is in Meerut District of Utter Pradesh very close to Hastinapore the famous capital of mahabharat times.

Veerta is a as divine as forgiveness my freind.
Majority of people accept the truth ie Satya. There is no problem in dealing with such people.

Majority of remaining accept the evidence Shaastra. Forgiveness works to this category of people.

There are some hard core demonic people who do not understand the language of forgiveness. They understand language of Shashtra ie weapon. Example of Mohammed gaury and Prithviraaj Chauhan who forgave gaury 3 times. But gaury got an opportunity just once and finished Prithviraaj forever.

Khsama is a virtue my freind. dacoits and their associates don;nt deserve that.

recently we have seen failure of Gandhi. I wonder when we'll use our commonsense if we are not using it now even after seeing cold blodded murder of 3 million people during partition and destruction of billions.

there was no `eye for an eye' my freind under leadership of Gandhi. It was almost a one way traffic. dacoits and their associates celebrated `Direct Action day' and Gandhi continued befooling people by his `non violence' towards snakes, scorpians and Volves.To depoison these beasts we need `Shakti' my freind unless we are `Budha' whose dristi itself can change a dacoit to sainthood.

I am happy to see you being a `secular Budhist'. I wish you become as great as Budha capable of transforming demons to saints by `dristi' itself.

Till that great day comes, please allow us `small normal humans'to protect ourselves from onslaught of dacoits.

Will you?

#375
commonsense
January 31, 2008
08:36 PM

Man Singh-san (san is as you know, japanese for "ji" in Hindi)

I thank you for your explanations. I am more confused than ever before, since confusion is my natural state of being. But the messages were written by me, Hiroshi Matsumoto, not by my worthless chamcha, haramkhore Commonsense. In any case, I thank you for your effort. I do hope that as an Inspection Engineer, you will continue to inspect the boundaries of all the villages to make sure the dacoits have not infiltrated.

BTW, my Shinto friends were not too amused when they heard that they are actually Hindus. However, I am happy to report that the Departments of Religious Studies at all the major universities in the world listened to my advice, based on your advice to me, and have decided to diband all their programmes in Buddhist Studies, sikh studies, Shinto studies etc. w.e.f. from today. There is now only Hinduism studies now in all these places, since they had no idea that until now, quite unknown to them, they were the victims of the divide and rule policies of the demons and dacoits that you have described.

Yours,

Hiroshi Matsumoto in Nara, Japan

#376
Gill
February 1, 2008
07:46 AM

Commonsense wrote

>>>to diband all their programmes in Buddhist Studies, sikh studies, Shinto studies etc. w.e.f. from today. There is now only Hinduism studies <<<<

Cs

What exactly is Hinduism? It seems from your post that you are contradicting your own previous definations!!!!!!

Strange you change definations and statements at convenience!!!!

#377
Man Singh
URL
February 1, 2008
12:10 PM

Comonsense #375

"Departments of Religious Studies at all the major universities in the world listened to my advice, based on your advice to me, and have decided to diband all their programmes in Buddhist Studies, sikh studies, Shinto studies etc. w.e.f. from today. There is now only Hinduism studies "

Your professors sound to be more then `intelligent' Bhai commonsense.

If a person tells them that there are many ways to realise God and each way is one branch of Hinduism. Your `super intelligent' professors decided to clsoe all branches of God realisation? Then what's left there?

All methods of Meditations, all methods of japa, all methods of Bhakti, and all methods of Research(Gyan) are closed when you told them that all Indic ways of worship lead to the same destination, they clsoe down all departments. Great.
My advise to them is that they should close department of Hinduism as well. name the all Indic religious study center as Dharma center and continue various study on various branches of Dharma , Budhism is one of course.

BTW please mail my address in Texas as you wrote somewhere I m staying in Texas? Is this house in my name? I'll happyly give you 50% share of its sale proceed. Do you know property dealer there commonsense?

#378
Man Singh
URL
February 1, 2008
12:18 PM

#373commonsense Bhai

even foolest of the fool know that Ambedkar declared his conversion to use it as weapon to fight against Adharma percolated in Hindu Society in last 1000 years of slavery.

No Budhist brainwashed him, no body offered him money like Missioneries, nobody terrorised him.

Dr Ambedkar himself quoted `kadambari'to prove that by 6th century there was no untouchability in Indian society. A dalit women enters the palace of King Sudrak and smartly convinces the king to but her pet parrot vaishampayan.

Contamination strated after 7th century when aliens invaded India and established jamindari system. These landlords appointed by foreign invaders exploited weaker sections of society of all casts. Some greedy priests of course also associated with them and this Adharma gave teh worst ever black mark on face of Hindus.

#379
commonsense
February 1, 2008
03:56 PM

Dear Gill and Man Singh Bhai,

Please don't bother addressing haramkhore commonsense. He is as you have correctly pointed out, he is the foolest of fools. Please communicate with me Hiroshi Matsumoto. As per your advice, Tokyo University (Tokyo Daigaku) now has only an Indic Religious Studies Centre. Thank you for explaining why Dr. Ambedkar had to convert in order to deal with Adharma that was creeping into, as you put it, into Hinduism. It all makes complete sense to me. I was confused earlier, but I will no longer read any more confucious. In fact like the other chinese I will go into Daoism, also spelt as Dowism or the worship of Dow Jones, an eminent diety in New York City. Perhaps it is also Indic. Thank you sincerely for clearing up my confusion. Thanks for enlightening me and for the moment, I have no more questions.

Hiroshi Matsumoto.

#380
Man Singh
URL
February 1, 2008
04:27 PM

Commonsense # 379 @ Hiroshi Matsumoto

Bhai commonsense @ Hiroshi Matsumoto

Achhi majak kar lete ho.

Ek hi request hai,

Please read the history of Jungle from Lions point of view and not Hunter's point of View.

Historians of Hunters will definitely glorify hunters. So Lions have to present their own case, write their own history but people addicted to Hunter's view of history will find it hard to digest.

Their Hero Brave Hunter from former view point will be a Cruel Devil from lions' point of view my freind.

Lion VS Hunters is same story as Villagers VS Dacoits.

Where address of my texas house?

#381
sanjay
URL
February 1, 2008
05:06 PM

The author's comments about Hinduism are idiotic and full of ignorance. It is clear he has just rehashed missonary / marxist propaganda and has not done original research. Some of the acccusations against Hindu scriptures are outright laughable and bizzare.

#382
commonsense
February 1, 2008
09:36 PM

yaar man singh bhai
majaakh aur chutiapey key seva
iss duniya mey rakkha kya hai??

don't take everything too seriously...baat dil pey ley jatey hao aap..


texas house? it's a ranch in crawford texas!

#383
kela
February 2, 2008
08:41 AM

Mansingh ,latest genetc research proves all blue eyed people have middle eastern/european ancestry.Braminical hindus are invaders who have imposed foreign religion on us

#384
Dileep Yogi
February 5, 2008
12:56 AM

#381
sanjay


chaturvarnyam mayashrishtam gunakarmavibhagashah
tasya kartharamapi mamvidhyakrthamavyam

(chaturvarnyam was created by me based on gunas and karmas, even af I am the creater of the same know me as the non- creator)

Gita

#385
Man Singh
URL
February 5, 2008
01:14 PM

#383 kela
February 2, 2008

Kela where is the genetic research proving Brahmins genes matching with Europeans? Who carried out this reasearch? Where are results and what are their assumptions? How many genes samples they took out of 50 Million Brahmins and 400 Million Europeans?

Are genes of all Europeans are same?

Now even if people believe that Brahmins genes match with Europeans , where religion comes in to the picture here? From Hindu scriptures it is well proved that `Bhakti' originated in Dravid Desh (Bhagwat Chapter 1 Mahatamya shloka 48) and Aryavarta is the land between two mountains on North and South and two oceans on East and west.(Bhavishya Puran Bhrahma parva 7/65)

That means Brahmins no matter from where they came adopted Indian religion and culture originated in South India and it is a good thing for India.

Brahmins are never fighters. How can they impose something on others? It is Khsatriyas who were powerful and fighter warriours. If blame them , i can understand. Abusing Brahmins for their fictious imposition is nothing but absurd.

Truth is that Varna means selection. Varan karna just like we choose our profession to become engineer doctor IT or any others based on our qualification and natural interest.

Read Bhagwadgeeta as mentioned by Dilip yogi # 383 and read sanskrit version and not english translations done by imperialists.

I am giving ceratin simple abservations understandable by even foolest of the fools to prove that Hinduism has deep Indian roots. If anybody came from outside he/she adopted Indians Dharma and not imposed foreign other then Islam and Christianity.

List is here.
Use your common sense and challenge the Anti India Historians (gangs of Mao, Marx Macauley and Mohamemd)

1. Almost all Hindus Dieties Ram, Krishn, Vinsnu are black in color curly hair like typical south Indian. All Devis look like typical South Indian women. Lord Shiva is karpur Goram again camphor is associated with South India and not North.

2. Vedas describe Indian rivers, Indian flaura and fauna not of any foreign country

3. Conch shell (Shankhs) used in Hindu worship is found in south India and not in North.

4. Sandal used in worship found in South India and not in North.

5. Roli (Kumkum) produced in South India and not in North.

6. Supari, etc all south Indian and not North.

7. Rice (South India) used in prayers not wheat produced in south.

8. Coconut produced in South India and not in North.

9. Sanskrit has alphabet of 53 letter similar in all Indian languages including Tamil while European languages have only 24-26

10. English has only 400 words common with Sanskrit, Tamil have more then 4000.

11. `Arya' in Sanskrit means a noble person who does his/her duty professionally and smartly irrespective of cast creed color or way of worship and never a race? So if Arya is not a race then from where the question of invasion arises. "Only from a crooked mind?"

12. All rivers described in Vedas are Indian rivers. If they were foreinegers they might have described foreign rivers as Muslim invaders always described `zam xam ka Paani'
13. All Mountains described in vedic Literature are Indian. If they were foreigners they might have described foreign mountains.

14. All astronomical descriptions match with star positions on India

15. All trees, plants medicines etc described are of Indian origin

Still do you believe the lie of Aryans invasion on India? This theory is an attack of very existence of civilization originated from soil of India.

Please feel free to chalaneg any of of it.

#386
Man Singh
URL
February 5, 2008
01:19 PM

commonsense #382

"texas house? it's a ranch in crawford texas!"

I was excited to know about my hidden wealth/property in Texas and that's why I asked its address. Your commission is ensured. No worries.

I dun take things at heart. Chutiyapa is good. This word is more used in Roorkee University where I studied fro 6 years from my graduation and masters in strcutural.

please enjoy.

#387
commonsense
February 5, 2008
02:11 PM

man singh bhai, the ranch in crawford also belongs to prez bush! so you will have to sort it out with him! chutiapa is a good word as it best describes what i dish out! Roorkee?? Wow! It was the first engineering institution, not just in India but much before any such institution in Britain. Started in 1795 I think, as Thomasan engineering college, then name changed to Roorkee. Is my history almost correct?

#388
Man Singh
URL
February 5, 2008
03:15 PM

it was 1847 Thomson college of Engineering.

After Independence it became University of Roorkee.

Now its IIT Roorkee.

#389
Morris
February 5, 2008
04:50 PM

Man Singh
Very interesting. Are you suggesting that all those who believe in virtuous living i.e. Dharma and do not think that their religion is the only right one (like Christians and Muslims) are Hindus? Or whatever you want to call them. Vrtuous living with respect for each other's belief is the ideal religion. If that is what you are saying then it is like secular humanism. I don't think Sikhs or Jews will agree with that. May be I do not understand.

To me the issue of Aryan invasion is not important in understanding your views on religoion.

#390
Man Singh
URL
February 5, 2008
05:13 PM

Yes Morris Bhai,

The word `Hindu' was never needed to define such people of Indian following Dharma ie Universal human values. It became neccessary once humanity was divided based on way of worship and in those circumestances word it was a `compulsion' on Indians to use `Hindu' word as identification for secular humanism.

Not even a single ancinet Indian book referes word `Hindu'any where in spite of the fact that around 4000 books deal with `religion and sprituality'.

Isn'nt it amazing?

But true.

Read Bhagwadgeeta for example, it always refers `manvah' (human beings), `sarva bhoothit' (welfare of all creatures), sarvesham (all living and non living beings).

Criteria if somebody is dharmic or not is his/her moral character and not way of worship or external religious symbols `achara: parmo dharma' (behaviour of a person is the real Dharma).

Yes you are right, may be even Hindus will not accept this truth that Hinduism is Humanism. may be jews or Sikhs also may be disagree.

But truth is this only. Any ancinet sanskrit books religious or non religious will verify this fact.

Before 1871 census all Indix religions were refered as Hindus. All records of Mughal courts refer Sikhs as Hindus and Budhists of Afaganistan and NW frontier as Hindus.

Divide and rule policy is perfectly in action.

Dharma is set of 10 virtues like Kindness, tlerance, non stealing ... and forms the foundation of secular humanism.

Its is different story that due to `political correctness' people do not want to give due credit to our ancinet seers who founded this humanism above way of worship.

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