Supreme Court Stays Implementation of 27% OBC Quota

How about amending the constitution?

Congress and other UPA factions control the legislature. No mainstream political party opposes the reservations. The OBCs are also fine with the general sense of entitlement that prevails among Indians.

General category candidates are just delaying the inevitable. The "Social Justice Taliban" will extract their pound of flesh. "Tyaag hi tyaag!"

Regards,

The country "where the mind is without fear" is the only country in which true scholarship can engage with the great issues of society. The Supreme Court of India's order on OBC Reservation has ensured that we are not losing that country.

In October 2006, while various deemed universities in India said that they would wait, watch and ultimately toed the government line, BITS Pilani's bold stand that it would not implement quotas and reservations in admissions shook the conscience of the nation.

For BITS Pilani, courage has always been what it takes to stand up and speak. It's for nothing Andrew Jackson said "One man with courage makes a majority".

BITS Pilani's stand reiterated what millions of silent Indians wanted to say by saying that the Government and Society at large must focus on Primary education and schooling system by giving special attention, care, concern, scholarship and coaching so that candidates of weaker sections can compete with other students and become worthy citizens of the nation.

Today India is devoid of Leaders who know the way, go the way and show the way.

The courts are slowly starting to move into their true role as protector of rights; maybe a few more shocks to political misadventures will move politicians to consider better alternatives.

In laymans terms? Does that mean youre a lawyer? If so, I strongly suggest you change your career. Your grammar is terrible, you use run on sentences and have no idea how to communicate.
You have little knowledge of the true role of the judiciary, and obviously NO idea of the separation of powers or rules of natural justice. If this is the level of competence Indian law schools churn out no wonder the country is iin the state it is.

I am actually not a lawyer, so no worry on that score. My profession is entirely different.
The separation of powers means that the legislature makes the laws, the executive implements the laws, and the judiciary decides on interpretation of laws. But where it gets more interesting is the fact that the judiciary is the defender of the constitution, and inspects each law to make sure that it is compliant with the constitution, and the intentions of the founding fathers.
Thanks for the comments, I am always looking for feedback so as to improve things.

Close but not quite. The judiciary dont inspect any laws, they interpret laws brought before them. and even so thats a very simplistic statement i am giving you.
Judicial review is a whole different ball game.
(a long and arduous one)

Reservation for backward castes isn't about bringing them on par in monetary terms ,its about bringing them on par on a social level.The only way out of reservations is to completely abolish the caste system.As one leader from the Hindutva forces suggested no more surnames indicating caste.Otherwise reservation is inevitable and i fully support it

A collegue at HLS once said, affirmative action is a good thing, it brings my class ranking up.

Paki, wow you went to Harvard Law School ?

Some comments on response #6, I am not able to paste more than one URL in one comment, so multiple comments

I totally disagree when you say that the judiciary doesen't inspect any laws. Supreme Court precedents in our land are numerous.

http://www.legalservicesindia.com/articles/c1onst.htm
"as against a federal Constitution, which contains internal checks and balances, the Indian Constitution renders supreme power upon the courts to invalidate any action violative of the Constitution. The Supreme Court further held that both the legislative and executive power of the States are subject to the respective supreme powers of the Union. "

http://www.trustman.org/indian_judiciary.htm
"Article 32 of the Constitution gives an extensive original jurisdiction to the Supreme Court in regard to enforcement of Fundamental Rights."

for a short while doing research, I read law at Oxford.

This comment highlights why there is some doubt about whether the Supreme Court was envisaged to be the custodian of the constitution

http://www.answers.com/topic/constitution-of-india
"The Constitution is superior to all other laws of the country. Every law enacted by the government has to be in conformity with the Constitution."
"In 1974, the Supreme Court of India in the landmark case of Kesavananda Bharati v. State of Kerala enunciated the Basic Structure Doctrine, which expanded the scope of judicial review to include the power to review Constitutional Amendments passed by the Legislature. Using this doctrine, the Supreme Court has struck down the 39th Amendment and parts of the 42nd Amendment as being violative of the Basic Structure of the Constitution. Some noted authors of Constitutional law, such as HM Seervai have argued that this is an usurpation of amending power by the judiciary which was never intended by the framers of the Constitution"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers
Judiciary
# Determines which laws apply to any given case
# Determines whether a law is unconstitutional
# Has sole power to interpret the law and to apply it to particular disputes

Ashish, Most of the law in India stems from England and indeed much from my Inn of court (lincolns) I can not be held accountable for the ignorance of your sloppy interpretation of what i said and what you have read on the internet.
the courts are given certain rights but they are subject to the rules of judicial review. and they dont per se inspect laws.

Ashish-
you're quoting wikipedia? are you serious?
if you are then thats a flat out insult to every human able to read a book.
go read Peter B H Birks book on civil law. then come argue

Oh, and you may wish to read the stuff you quote more carefully, nowhere does it say the job of the courts is to inspect any law.

So, im on a plane coming back from england and i listen to people speaking. it seems eeveryone is an expert on everything. especially law. everyone seems to know what is "illegal"
why is this?
people dont do this with doctors. at least, i have never heard people talking about how they should insist on drug infused stents to prevent pain in angina. yet this seems to be the norm for law.

It's difficult to have a rational discussion when the other person either says that the source you are quoting is wrong, or your interpretation is sloppy or what you are quoting does not support what you say.
I have presented writings from different source backing up what I said; furthermore I am only speaking for the Indian constitution, not any other. Why don't you present something other than your own statement?
Some quotes from the examples above:

"Every law enacted by the government has to be in conformity with the Constitution."
"Determines whether a law is unconstitutional"

Also, in the books that you read, it would be good to read the judgements in the Keshavananda Bharti case and the recent case regarding the Ninth Schedule.

ok ill say this once.
the power the courts have does not determine what their role is. they can not chose what law to inspect. they are not allowed to give opinions on a particular law, they can only say how the statute is interpreted for a particular set of facts before the court. furthermore the case has to go through a whole bunch of tests before it is heard on a contitutional issue.
the other thing, law is different, sources like wikipedia etc are very very often wrong. the only authority you have is the law.
now if you find me a case or a code that says the courts have to power to inspect laws, i will change the way i lecture and give you credit for it.

I have no interest in the case you site. I seriously doubt it says what you think it does. but if by some freak miracle it says the courts can look at laws and give opinions based on an inspection of the law itself, then every common law country would collapse jurisprudentially, and 2500 years of our legal system will have changed.

First, since we are talking about reservation, let us look at some data related to education amongst various caste groups. The data shown here is from the report: Employment and Unemployment Situation Among Social Groups in India, 2004-05. Please refer to it for methodology and sampling information.

Let us start with higher education first (Post Graduate and above)

- In the national population, Upper caste make up for 31% of the population but make up for 61% of the population with education of graduation and above

- In the national URBAN population, Upper caste make up for 47% of the population but make up for 71% of the population with education of graduation and above

Both cases clearly demonstrate the overwhelming presence of upper castes in higher education. There are billion reasons as to why other castes are not present but the fact is they are severely under represented.

Let us move to household consumer expenditure next

If you look at the top 3 expenditure groups (out of 12 groups),

- In the national URBAN population, Upper caste make up for 47% of the population but make up for 71% of the population within the top 3 groups of consumer expenditure

- If you take just the top bracket, 80% of this population belongs to upper caste (actual population: 47%). So everytime you to an MGF/Spencers/In orbit or Forum be assured that 8 out of 10 are upper caste and the rest if any are not with shopping bags

Is it a coincidence that OBCs and other groups form such a small proportion of higher education and higher income groups? Obviously not! A population survey will yield similar results if not the same results.

Therefore for the single judge in the supreme court to argue against reservations is fool hardy. Secondly, there is enough data to justify severe under representation of backward and scheduled castes....

I agree that reservation alone cannot answer all the issues, but with a crumbling Govt education system...reservations are a must. There is no way out...........

these quotas are not the answer, what you need is a blind admissions process. if you truly want to help the minority groups you need to start with education at a very basic level. if not youre going to end up with surgeons who shouldnt be, lawyers who shouldnt be and a govenrment that shouldnt be. think..do you want your cardio vascular surgeon to be there because he didnt get the grade every other surgeon did but was let in anyway?

I'm not too keen on reservation in professional stuides either but unless caste system is abolished there seems to be no way out.

Kela- do you live in india?

yes i do,why ?

I need workers from there!

Paki

What are your suggestions for imrpoving the primary/secondary education system and how long do you anticipate it will take it to ensure adequate representation of other caste groups?

Honestly Chandra, I think it would be a faster more solid method than the quotas, because its hard to abolish once they are established. look at the american examples. my thoughts are that the less fortunate be given help by providing better schools and teachers rather than spending insane amounts on the heavy electrical industry and weapons production that india has.
I feel a little ignorant on this subject from an indian point of view because i have a limited knowlege of the circumstances in india. i do believe however that quotas will do no more than create resentment by everyone else toward them because of the favored placements.

paki i dont know how much you know about the caste system prevalent in India but the lower castes are treated worse than vermin,even worse than the lowliest blacks slumming it out in Ghettos.The couple fo low castes that make it to decent educational institutions are ignored,neglected,made fun of ,tortured and what not.I know of many instances of low caste officers reduced to tears by upper caste clerks,and other lowly employees.Its a sad plight their lot

Paki, you dont't believe Wikipedia, but do you believe what a newspaper reports ? Let me put this link and then if you have the enthu, do read it. It puts forward my point very clearly.

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=53915

they should make it an offese to discriminate against them, and enforce the laws.

not when the enforcement authorities cops and all are majority upper castes.The cops refuse to register cases and chase them away.

Paki

Ya, fixing the Indian education system is extremely complicated.I expect it will take a minimum of 15 years to do so....we cannot wait forever for that to happen...hence the need for reservations

You arguments about surgeons are invalid because

a. Many Indian doctors graduate from private capitation fees colleges (non-merit based)

b. All doctors are not surgeons

c. All surgeons donot need to be geniuses.Just need to be trained and careful


Lastly, about reservations becoming permanent.
Frankly that is not such a fearful thing. Currently reservations exist for 49% of the seats.....The % of people who belong to lower caste communities is about 69%....so thats not a worry

The problem with our education system is much more complicated than spending more money.

a. We have parents who are keen on pulling kids out of school after class 5 or so to take their help in farmlands. This is because of poverty. Poverty is because of education and other reasons and hence a vicious cycle

b. Parental education: Low levels of adult education are a problem and many donot go for this because of multiple reasons. The Govt cannot spend too much on adult education because it needs money for primary/ secondary and higher education and that is another vicious cycle

c. Teacher quality and availability: Quality of teachers across all education levels is poor because the best and brightest donot wish to be in teaching (low paying/ hardly any respect). Those who are available operate tuitions rather than go to schools to teach. The corrupt Govt infrastructure is unable to deal with this

d. Infrastructure itself is a problem: More money could help and more allocations are being provided

e. Societal involvement: This is a big factor and NGOs continue to focus on this. Yields great results but is a slow proces

There are other issues as well. We can fix it..iampositive....but will take time...10-15 years is a conservative estimate considering improvements in the last few years. There is a huge focus and pressure though.

I dont understand what you mean by electrical industry???

Defence expenditure is quite low and is a non-negotiable...There are atleast 3 areas we need to generate more money from

a. Disinvestment of Public sector: Should generate about 200 Billion (govt spends about 8 B on education)

b. fertiliser subsidies: 4 Billion

c. NREGA: Absolutely usless program: 4 Billion

all above numbers are in USD. These can together generate huge sums of money to improve the quality of the program

rgds

All said and done I think education is kinda over-rated in India.I just read about an Indian billionaire based in Oman who was a college dropout and started his own businesses.And you're right Paki,i wouldnt be wanted to be treated by a person who's made it through quotas.

I was using surgeons as an example.
I know people in india who have been treated by doctors who quite frankly should not be near a hospital.
you say money is not the answer yet all the points you make will be helped by funding.
kids being pulled out of school because of poverty etc.
I dont think 15 years is realistic, i am thinking more like 30 years.

Paki

Discrimination is not the only problem. When I studied at college many moons ago...there were numerous poor kids studying with me....surpise surpise....all upper caste........Out of 20 lower caste kids in my class, one was in the top-10 of the class and rest 19 in the bottom 19 positions of the class. However many of them have since managed their careers well and atleast 5 out of the rest 19 work now for large global corporations. If there had been no reservations none of the other 5 would have ever been recognised ....a success rate of 20-25% 15 years ago may have improved even further now......While some professors and students did discriminate...many did not....there are all kinds of people in this planet....

In the villages, discrimination is more rampant and visible as mentioned by Kela. But without urban-rural ratio changing this discrimination will only reduce over time.

rgds

you will always find people who make it big without education, look at most of the music and entertainment industry, professional sports etc. but we play a numbers game. your chance of making a decent living is far better with a professional degree or so.

Paki- 36

a. Exactly: The surgeon may have been from a capitation school. Also,I have seen incompetent surgeons with great academic records (Like our cricket team :-)

b. Kids being pulled out of school by parents. How can you reduce parents poverty overnight?????

c. More money is good...and hence the recco to pump in more money (min of 8 B more plus atleast another 10 B a year for 10 years from money generated from PSU disinvestment)

well...15 years is because we have seen great improvements over the last 5 years and with rapid increases in education budgets, greater NGO involvement,things are imporving faster than before.

Paki if you're as good as you say you are,you should study the Indian constitution vis-a-vis the caste system in India and how it continues to be prevalent and institutionalised .How are we still talking in caste terms when it's supposed to be abolished ? Why do we still have names that identify caste?

I hate Rhetoric

Kela- I never ever said i was good.
My friend and former Yale Law Prof told me his motto, he said...
If i cant outsmart you, I will out work you.
And if i outwork you i can beat you.

so I try my best at whatever I do.

I really dont understand why India still has this acste system. is it part of the Hindu religion?

Common Kela....

% of people who own their own businesses or in other such professions does not exceed 20%. The population by and large are people with a need for jobs (in all countries) and jobs are largely determined by your education (atleast at entry level)

let me give you an interesting piece of data

In the BSE sensex, 3 communities control..60% of the top positions- Punjabi,Gujarati, Marwari/Baniya......

If 3 communities control 60% of business positions....what hope do lower castes have..nothing!!!

You said - "i wouldnt be wanted to be treated by a person who's made it through quotas"

How would you know? You go to a hospital or adoctor because of its or the doctors reputation. You dont go around checking for caste. The fact is that today 2 out of 5 doctors may not have come through the merit system and half of them are quite competent.

The caste system exists because we dont intermarry. We dont intermarry because we are casteist.

We dont intermarry because most of us live in rural areas.The rural areas are highly casteist and conservative at the same time

While the urban areas are less casteist, as I have shown before the odds of meeting a lower caste person at work and in your economic strata is extremely low (1 in 5) and hence the extremely low probability of inter marrying

Interestingly we find more and more people marrying outside the community (state) because we tend to meet more of them at college or at work. But since anyway they tend to be of the higher caste, the problems continue

The issue of whether casteism is hindu or not is irrelevant. I say that because the same problems that impact caste hindus impacts caste muslims and caste christians. At some level caste has a strong ethnicity linkage and we in India are nervous about discussing ethnicity.

For example, the other day I found out that 54% of bollywood actors and actresses were from just a single community (Punjabi). Hardly 3% of bollywood actresses and actors came from the hindi belt. Imagine- bollywood is hindi cinema.
While I dont envy the 54%, what concerns me is what kind of system is it that eliminates the 350 million hindi speaking population?

Some ethnic groups enjoy serious advantages over the others and at some point somebody is going to take advantage of it.

rgds

Chandra-1) i always do a background check of the docs before going to a hospital.
2)everyone doesn't have to be a doc/eng/lawyer to make a living.For eg in the US ppl holding jobs like security guards,masons,plumbers etc make a decent enough living and you don't need to go to college for that.I think the indian education system should focus more on skilled trades.
3) caste system will not end with intermarriage.We have to get rid of all references to caste starting with names

Kela

Skills like guards etc are decent paying because of

a. The strength of the economy
b. The availability of those skills

India

a. Does not have a strong economy
b. The skills you mentioned are available in adequate numbers here...


rgds

Kela

Marriage is the one of the many ways caste system will end. Education and econonic empowerement are the other ways

Lastly,Removing surnames will only hide the problem that already exists. It is like running away from the problem.



rgds

Ashish,

I read various comments on your blog while writing a piece on conflicts of interest. My personal advice to a mature and decent writer like you is not to enter into arguments with psuedo-intellectuals like Paki.

Ashish,

I did not complete my comments since I was new to this blog business. An excellent write-up. Please be wary of people who drop names and not arguments (Paki, for instance). I am editor-in-chief of a journal 'Compliance, Risk & Opportunity' focused on banking industry.

I would like to get in touch with you for more interactions.
Look forward to touch base with you. Contact me at [EDITED - PERSONAL INFO]

And a line for the legal expert, Paki.

The names that you mention do sound impressive, but in absence of any valid argument, point to the contrary. Where you studied, who are your friends and who were your classmates, are at best, crutches.

Hallmark of a well educated person is humility, respect for other human beings and the capability and confidence to engage into an argument without dropping names.

Let us take it forward from here onwards.

[EDITED]
Chandra- you cant force ppl to marry.As regards skills you have call centres too,thousands and thousands are employed in various BPO's and call centres which do not require high funda education

Hari Mishara- this forum is for discussion [EDITED] ,why do you wanna take it some place else ? [EDITED]

Chandra- people are not really skilled in performing those jobs as a result we have poor workmanship.Does India have an indigenous car/bike ?hundreds fo the brightest students attend IIT's but they can't come out with a decent design.School dropouts in USA/UK design and make their own bikes.Have you seen biker build-off or American Choppers ? they'renot engineers but they make beautiful custom bikes.Same goes with the cars,painters.In my city there's no decent painter nor mechanic who can repair my enfield 500.It's all trial and error method.Thats why i said ppl need to be trained.Workers in Maruti/Honda etc are trained workers and earn very high salaries,more than most post-grad/phd teachers and professors in India.There is a lot of disparity in incomes for diff jobs in India.In the USA according to a recent survey it is not so.Masons/guards earn 13-14$ per hour almost equal to earnings by other more educated professionals

Kela,
im outta here, this isnt a group for discussion.
Hairi - im sorry you dont understand logic. either that or you cant read. unless you can tell me where my argument is flawed shut the hell up.
kela- drop me a line on im sometime.
ciao

Kela,

I am sorry, but none of what you say make any sense. Let me elaborate

a. "you cant force ppl to marry"- Please show me the line in my posts where I said this? Intermarriage will happen when more people meet from other castes. When 70% of the education system is from upper castes, where do you think intermingling will happen

b. "As regards skills you have call centres too,thousands and thousands are employed in various BPO's and call centres which do not require high funda education"

So what are you suggesting?

OBCs/ Dalits take call centre jobs and upper castes will take all the engineering/mba jobs?

c. People are not really skilled in performing those jobs as a result we have poor workmanship.Does India have an indigenous car/bike

Chandra: We are talking about compensation here (snce you mentioned that security guards,masons,plumbers make a decent living in the US). Compensation is not determined by quality alone but by availability of that resource and b. ability to pay in that economy. If I supply a quality that costs me significantly higher than my ability to pay, I will not pay for it. That is why more people buy BMWs in the US than they do in India even though both BMW and Maruti Zen do the same task but the BMW is a vastly superior product.

d. "hundreds fo the brightest students attend IIT's but they can't come out with a decent design"

Chandra: Firstly I am not from the IITs so I cannot say. Secondly, I know many from my engineering college who work with some of best engine and parts designers in the US and UK and are doing a great job. Lastly, if your argument is right, what is your basis of preventing a quota for a OBC/Dalit. It is only a few posts before that you said doctors with reservation are incompetent. Now you say engineers without reservation are also incompetent. If people with or without reservation are incompetent anyway what bothers you about reservation?

e. School dropouts in USA/UK design and make their own bikes.Have you seen biker build-off or American Choppers ?

Chandra: Well the finest designs in the US- whether planes or otherwise come from graduates from the finest colleges in the US. What you are talking about is enterprise. Clearly the anglo-saxons are extremely innovative and that is why they make up for most nobel prize winners. We are not anglo saxons. Having said that even though the Americans have such innovators their car companies together are sinking faster than anything else. Inspite of all this every year more and americans are seeking college education. Many americans I know enlist into the army to save money for acollege education. Parents go through heaven and hell to save for their kids college education. Surely if all that you said about great innovation and decent living from being a guards masons or a plumber was true one would not see such a craze for college education. Therefore I dont see why OBCs/Dalits in India should not share the same desire for higher education.

f. "In my city there's no decent painter nor mechanic who can repair my enfield 500"

Chandra: Do you realise why it is so easy to find somebody to fix a hero honda/ bajaj or a TVS but not an Enfield? Thats because

i. Enfield has a poor service network and have not invested in training technicians to fix their bike

ii. They have not done that because they donot have the volumes to sustain such a program

Having said all that,why dont you tell me where you live I will find somebody for you?

At the end of this you seem to be suggesting only one thing- " There is a future for jobs like Call center executive, security guard, masons and plumber and that OBCs/Dalits can live without being engineer and MBAs"

To me this sounds like another clever way to keep all higher education with upper castes.

g. Workers in Maruti/Honda etc are trained workers and earn very high salaries,more than most post-grad/phd teachers and professors in India

Chandra: I am assuming you are referring to UGC compensation? Non-UGC teachers earn significantly more than workers at Maruti/ Honda.
Also the compensation curve for a worker significantly differs from his manager. While th worker would be in a 5-10% yoy growth, the manager could be as high as 20% or more and other bonuses. Therefore I dont see why OBCs/dalits should restrict themselves only to slow growth jobs and upper castes to high growth jobs.

You should read a book by Robert maister on professionals. 13-14$ per hour for a mason is lower than the per capita income of the US and significantly lower than what graduates from engineering colleges and B schools make in the US. Ironically, in another 2-3 years it will also be lower than what many MBAs/ Engineers will make here in India.
If I had been an expert mason with a job in the US today I would have made about $ 30 dollars an hour. As an MBA I make 3 times that....thats the difference

Let us not lose sight of what we have been discussing

a. Reservations are important because OBCs are significantly under represented

b. While the quality of graduates produced might differ, the % of quality OBC graduates will definitely be significantly higher than before

c. Providing opportunities for other castes will allow for greater intermingling and therefore reduce caste barriers

rgds

Chandra you made a long and passionate argument,quite un-necessary actually.I have never in my posts said anything about reservation.All i am saying is only in India is there so much hype about engineers/docs/mba's.If like you are implying india is a poor economy why the hell do we need so many engineers/docs etc?In kerala we have phd's driving autorickshaws and there are so many such cases.What is the point of so many engineers when there are no companies to employ them ? india is just seen as a huge labour market.We need more entrepreneurs .As regards call centres right now i think most of the jobs are held by upper castes youth fluent in english.So all this talk about me wanting all upper caste as engineers and stuff is just rhetoric.In kerala there are many BC's engaged in trades like fishermen,butchers,vegetable vendors and other similar trades and doing quite well while some of my upper caste mates in college are working as watchmen.For you it seems more of an ego thing about becoming an engineer or doctor,i guess for u such professions only are respectful and others not,this is very wrong.In USA the most respected professions are not engineers and docs but firemen,cops ,security guards and the like.In advances countries only persons with an aptitude for becoming engineer etc choose such professions.I guess if a bc has the necessary aptitude there's nothing to stop him/her.
As regards inter-marriage,how do you suppose it will take place when caste exists ?there will always be conflict of upper/lower caste.Removing casteist names is the only way out since that is the only sign of caste that exists.

Paki thats too bad you're leaving because of the trolls

awwww u poor things! I am all teared up at this touching parting.

DG now don't be jealous cause you were slighted by paki LOL,you have his id,go on send him a message ,I'm sure he has a big heart

I bet he has, Kela! I'd leave that to u.

Paki- i have just sent a mail to Amazon and monster.com about the ulterior designs of the mods of this blog who seem to be promoting some kind of agenda as can be seen in their partial editing of comments.What do you think our chances are of filing a class action suit against them

Hmm about zilch? Especially in light of your unsavoury crude remarks directed towards Amrita?

Kela

I am debating reservation here and not quality of education. Your whole notion was reservation has become more important than what it is because we Indians are obsessed with professional degrees and in fact in other countries people in other professions like Plumbers, Masons etc also make a lot of money. My argument is that your notion is fallacious as I have explained in my previous posts. Professionals tend to make more money than skilled manual labor.

I am sorry I did not know you are from kerala,I can only emphatise with you.

Your data about BCs in kerala doing very well is kind of not backed by data. Amongst the top consumption group, the % of well of people amongst upper castes is almost twice that of OBCs in rural areas and thrice that of OBCs in Urban areas. Look at the larger social group rather than 5 fishermen.

In the US the issue of respecting or not respecting a profession does not exist,. The notion of respect/disrespect for a profession only exist in our society. I never therefore refer to respect in my discussions, i referred to economics and in every country the economies favor those who acquire a professional education versus those who dont.

Removing surnames will solve no problems. Caste is in the mind not in the surname.

rgds

Chandra- are you saying that people are born with caste ingrained in their brains? As far as I know out of sight is out of mind,so as long as the mark of one's caste exists(a person's surname) caste system will be prevalent.
I am from kerala but i wasn't born nor am i living there.I was there for 10 yrs and I think kerala is the only place in India where there exists some sort of parity in income among all irrespective of caste.When the rest of the country was making a hue and cry abt reservations there was none in Kerala.You seem to jot down lots of stats,what are your sources ?
You seem to be implying that reservations are needed because lower castes are poor which I totally disagree.If reservations are all about ecnomics then reservations should be based on income not caste.As I see it reservations is all about vote bank politics.The govt should instead be engaged in generating more employment avenues for underprivileged sections,encourage entrepreneurship ,by providing easy loans.

are you saying that people are born with caste ingrained in their brains

There has been a statistical and scientific studies in west which have indicated that people with similar genes tend to come and then stick together more often. Since Caste in a sense represents a genee pool, I guess we can safely assume the above implies for castes also.

so are you implying we must all form our little communities within communities ? sorry i'm not into that i prefer a more pluralistic society.besides I don't agree with that study.I am a mallu and i don't hang around mallus.i prefer hanging out with the ppl i live with.I think that would be the case with most people.

infact that study is a load of bull-crap,how do you explain the brain-drain ?ppl with similar intellect come together and not for any other reason

Kela

a. Education Reservations donot win votes (atleast now). If they did, that would have been a predominant strategy for all politicians. BC Vote banks are failry consolidated amongst various parties and since higher education quotas impact few, the resultant vote benefits would be minimal. On the other hand private sector job quotas would have a significant impact on voting behavior.

b. My data is from the 'Employment and Unemployment Situation Among Social Groups in India
2004-05, NSS 61st ROUND, (July 2004 - June 2005)'. Report 516

c. Of course casteism is a problem of both mind and money. You yourself have said this-

"The couple of low castes that make it to decent educational institutions are ignored,neglected,made fun of ,tortured and what not"

d. "When the rest of the country was making a hue and cry abt reservations there was none in Kerala"

Chandra: I am tempted to be sarcastic here but let us leave it there. You dont realise that a. Most of the south were quiet on reservations and b. The protest against reservations were more intense in mdeical colleges like AIIMs rather than B Schools and E. Colleges

Why?

(i)The south have a history of reservations-Kerala itself has a reservation of close to 50%
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2308/stories/20060505006400800.htm

(ii) Protests more in Medical colleges because they have a far less elastic supply of seats than engineering colleges.
Income based reservations is fine with me. In that case you will end up with more reservations as OBCs/dalits constitute 90% of all poor. :-)

Govt should do many things other than reservation- primary education being the most critical. But higher education reservations is also a useful tool and as seen in the southern states as benefitted Backward castes.

rgds

Paki,

Where did you pick up the language that you use? Most of your posts that I read, are replete with intemperate language, argumentum ad hominiem, and 'mine is the last word' syndrome.

I am convinced that you are incapable of rational thought. Nevertheless, the flaws that you asked for:

True, there is separation of powers between the legislature and the judiciary. But judiciary does exercise limited powers of review on the laws enacted by legislature, to ensure that legislature does not transcend its powers beyond what is allowed to it under the constitution.

For instance, legislature cannot enact a law which takes away fundamental rights guaranteed under the constitution. If that were so, any elected government can perpetuate itself by enacting a law to that effect.

It is not rocket science, Paki, just a fine balance of power between the three pillars of governance-legislative, executtive and the judiciary.

Also, there is nothing sacrosanct about laws, which are created by humans, and that applies to jurisprudence too. The latter continues to evolve over time - there are no rules of thumb or eternal principles involved here.

It seems that this forum is infested with a closed group of people, who are yet to become cultured enough to attack the argument and not the person who advances it.

I am sure that you or your friends out here will yell all expletives to me, because discussion for you people is 'agree with me or face the abuses'.

50% reservations are the norm throughout the country i think.Where i live its 90% but i've noticed that people engaged in trades are much better off than the docs and engineers.
If obc's etc make up more of the poor then they should be given their due.
Reservations are directly correlated to caste based politics.
As regards Kerala,I think all credit goes to the coummunists for bringing about social equality not reservations.

Hari, no one commenter here is representative of the whole of Desicritics, we are a big tent, and all that good stuff.

Chandra- "In the US the issue of respecting or not respecting a profession does not exist,. The notion of respect/disrespect for a profession only exist in our society. I never therefore refer to respect in my discussions"
hell why not ?we are talking about reservations in the Indian context aren't we ?A prominent dalit leader has gone on record to say that he is against creamy layer.For him its more about the social standing of dalits than their lack of money.
You want more engineers and docs among the lower castes when many such professionals are jobless and earning salaries less than call centre employees.You want more dalit mba's but yourself say 60% businesses are controlled by upper castes.You think the upper castes will employ them? Don't expect the govt to do so ,they're already on a downsizing spree.According to a report 70% of Indian mba's are unemployable.Those marwari's and guju's u talk about are into business from generations.They dont possess MBA degrees.

Kela

"but i've noticed that people engaged in trades are much better off than the docs and engineers"

Chandra: Good. So that means it does not really matter if we have reservations isn't it?


"If obc's etc make up more of the poor then they should be given their due"

Chandra: Well they do...so would you support reservations for OBCs?

"Reservations are directly correlated to caste based politics"

Chandra: Pray,what does this mean?

"As regards Kerala,I think all credit goes to the coummunists for bringing about social equality not reservations"

Chandra: Reservations were introduced in kerala long before the communists came to power and secondly reservations are/were caste based

"hell why not ?we are talking about reservations in the Indian context aren't we"

Chandra: Ya.....so whats your point?

" prominent dalit leader has gone on record to say that he is against creamy layer.For him its more about the social standing of dalits than their lack of money"

Chandra: Which dalit leader said this?

"You want more engineers and docs among the lower castes when many such professionals are jobless and earning salaries less than call centre employees"

Chandra: Thats the irony in our country.Today most of the country has 22% reservations and yet 40% of our graduates are not being recruited and yet there is a resource crunch. Is it because of lack of recruitment?No? is it because of reservations?No!!. What is it due to?

It is due to the quality of the education that is delivered in many of these institutes.So let us not mix up the quality debate with reservations.

"want more dalit mba's but yourself say 60% businesses are controlled by upper castes"

Chandra: I did not say this.

"You think the upper castes will employ them"

Chandra: Of course I will if. I dont go about looking for resumes on the basis of caste. The irony is even if I would want to look for an OBC or dalit candidate today I will not get one because not many go to a B school.

On the engineering side, things are better.There are many SC/ST/BC kids who would have never been to an engineering college if not for reservations. Today atleast 20-30% of them are doing very well. I hear that the ratio is much higher in TN and AP. Give people opportunity, they will do well and motivate others to do well.

"According to a report 70% of Indian mba's are unemployable.Those marwari's and guju's u talk about are into business from generations.They dont possess MBA degrees"

Chandra: Of course they are not. So what is the big talk about merit and all when you have no reservations. Well as mentioned before not everybody has the aptitude,opportunity or the desire to be in their own business. I dont know how familiar you are with marwaris but many of my classmates in engineering were marwaris- moving away from their historic background of doing small businesses. Things are changing. There is a value for education and across the world.

Kela, writes:
You want more dalit mba's but yourself say 60% businesses are controlled by upper castes.You think the upper castes will employ them?

:)

May be, that's why we need reservations in the private sector too!

Chandra:
" Good. So that means it does not really matter if we have reservations isn't it?"

kela:yes


Chandra: Well they do...so would you support reservations for OBCs?

Kela:if reservations exist i guess,what with all the stats u typed

Chandra:"Reservations are directly correlated to caste based politics"

Kela: reservations are politically motivated

Chandra: Which dalit leader said this?

Kela: a very senior member on a debate on NDTV.

Chandra: I did not say this.

Kela: you said 60% businesses were in the hand of marwaris and other upper castes so its a logical conclusion they'll be doing all the employing

Chandra: Ya.....so whats your point?
Kela: Reservations exist due to societal reasons not economic,low castes are not given respect and treated like shit much like apartheid

Ok Chandra this is the thing -

The proponents of caste system state that caste is just basic division of labour.SO essentially there wasn't supposed to be any discrimnation in terms of the jobs one was assigned to perform.All jobs were supposed to have equal respect.Alas this did not happen and the caste's assigned manual jobs were treated inferior and discriminated against.So if this is the case society should change its attitude to such manual professions and give it equal respect.And the fact that now we live in a free country everyone should be given freedom to choose his profession.So there's actually no need of reservation.

Kela

Chandra: " Good. So that means it does not really matter if we have reservations isn't it?"

kela:yes

Chandra: So whats the whole point of the debate then?:-)

You start of by saying you support reservation and then you end by saying you dont.

Here..let me quote you

"I'm not too keen on reservation in professional stuides either but unless caste system is abolished there seems to be no way out"

"No way out"

Then you say

"And the fact that now we live in a free country everyone should be given freedom to choose his profession.So there's actually no need of reservation"

"No need for Reservation"

How can you move from "no way out" to "no need for reservation" in a span of few posts?


Kela: reservations are politically motivated

Chandra: Prove this!!!

Kela: a very senior member on a debate on NDTV.

Chandra: Who?

Kela: you said 60% businesses were in the hand of marwaris and other upper castes so its a logical conclusion they'll be doing all the employing

Chandra: No I did not say this

Kela: Reservations exist due to societal reasons not economic,low castes are not given respect and treated like shit much like apartheid

Chandra: Great, so why do you also say "No need for Reservation"???????............

You have changed your view multiple times. Forget it. I will get confused after sometime :-)

rfds

Abolish the caste system,simple as that.Reservations doesn't abolish caste it even create class conflict.
But if reservations are to stay the deserving should not be deprived.
as regards -
"Kela: you said 60% businesses were in the hand of marwaris and other upper castes so its a logical conclusion they'll be doing all the employing

Chandra: No I did not say this"
ref post #43
"If 3 communities control 60% of business positions....what hope do lower castes have..nothing!!! "

Kela: reservations are politically motivated

Chandra: Prove this!!!
Isn't is logical ?when you have caste based politics.

Chandra: Great, so why do you also say "No need for Reservation"???????........

i said reservations exist on that pretext ,i wasn't justifying it.

I haven't changed my views.I am not for reservation,but it they have to exist the deserving should not be deprived which includes Obc's

Kela

The 3 communities mentioned are Punjabi,Gujarati, Marwari/Baniya......

Clearly Punjabi and Gujarati are not castes. If you think they are, I am sorry..:-)

Kela: Isn't is logical ?when you have caste based politics.

Chandra: Please elaborate as to how reservations benefit the ruling congress party?

Kela: "I haven't changed my views. I am not for reservation,but it they have to exist the deserving should not be deprived which includes Obc's"

Chandra:This reminds me of John Kerry

" I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it"

Tell me something. What would your solution be so that all all castes benefit equally. And I mean specific actionables as opposed to saying "improve primary education" which is very generic.

Well, supreme court is right in asking these questions. My only question to supreme court is if I just for an example feel Jayalalitha is a corrupt politician and file a case against her saying she is too corrupt to be CM of any state until she is found innocent of all her charges. What will SC do in this case? I am sure I for one won't get any publicity. Media highlights only what it likes highlighting (like in this case media is so pro anti reservation) . I have seen Aaj Tak, Star News, NDTV etc nnoone supports the other side of this anti reservation. My only question is why? There are two sides of every coin and I think we need to shed our pride and look at the other side.

Well, supreme court is right in asking these questions. My only question to supreme court is if I just for an example feel Jayalalitha is a corrupt politician and file a case against her saying she is too corrupt to be CM of any state until she is found innocent of all her charges. What will SC do in this case? I am sure I for one won't get any publicity. Media highlights only what it likes highlighting (like in this case media is so pro anti reservation) . I have seen Aaj Tak, Star News, NDTV etc nnoone supports the other side of this anti reservation. My only question is why? There are two sides of every coin and I think we need to shed our pride and look at the other side.

Reservations are no solution ,it will create another problem -a class divide ,the only way out is the abolishment of caste

chandra;Clearly Punjabi and Gujarati are not castes. If you think they are, I am sorry..:-)

ref #43 -"If 3 communities control 60% of business positions....what hope do lower castes have..nothing!!!
This reminds me of John Kerry

Kela

here it is in full...who are you fooling??

In the BSE sensex, 3 communities control..60% of the top positions- Punjabi,Gujarati, Marwari/Baniya......
If 3 communities control 60% of business positions....what hope do lower castes have..nothing!!!

Read this...very sad:(


http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/videos.aspx?id=12666

chandra- yeah,so what does that mean ?explain what you typed ?you're the one looking foolish.

Kela

Go figure out!!!


rgds

go figure out ??

you said 60% businesses are held by upper caste and then deny it in the next post ,amazing

Chandra- "The data shown here is from the report: Employment and Unemployment Situation Among Social Groups in India, 2004-05."

who has conducted the survey/study.

if you are pro-reservation surely you would have no prob in Christian and Muslim dalits benefiting therefrom

Kela: if you are pro-reservation surely you would have no prob in Christian and Muslim dalits benefiting therefrom

Chandra: No. They dont. This is a Hindu nation. Hindus should get all preferences and jobs. Christians wishing reservation can migrate peacefully to christian countries and muslim dalits to OIC. We can create a small budget for this migration, not a problem

rgds

Chandra- Indian is not a Hindu nation,where does it say so ? Thats an inflammatory statement.You are obviously speaking from ignorance since Hindus are actually the invaders.This country belongs to the Dalits who are essentially pagans and are not really hindus.Dalits Muslims?christians are rightly entitled to reservation if there are to be any.ANyways as a christian why should i bear the burden of past discriminations of hindus.CAste is a hindoo problem why should christians suffer ?

Kela

About christian dalits and muslim dalits:
Thats just my opinion. I agree with you that the current situation is not what I described in my post

We are working hard to ensure that all dalits in these relions are reconverted back to Hindu. They are treated properly by fellow upper caste hindus, they are given opportunities and can progress as equals in society.

Laslty,Yes, India is not a Hindu nation, we are a 'secular' country. But many of us are working hard to ensure that Hindu will become a Hindu nation where all of us will practice just one religion. The great religion of my birth and my nation- Sanatan Dharma.

If you are not an Hindu, I would sincerely request you to quickly adopt this religion. Your life and outlook to it will change dramatically. Donot resist it.

rgds

LOL no thanks,hinduism is the reason for the mess India is in right now.Take for instance the notion of Kal-Yug, this belief is the reason for the rot in India,no one wants to do any good because they think all is doomed since this is Kal-Yug.I am a syrian christian from kerala,we were never hindus nor will ever be and shall resist all attempts at forcible conversions and violation of human rights.

Chandra- you being hindu should actually seriously consider adopting buddhism which is really the progression from hinduism.Look at the countries where buddhism is accepted- Japan,Korea way ahead of india.And look at nepal the erstwhile only hindu nation

Kela

You are born a Hindu and will become one soon. Hinduism is the only way. Sooner or later i am confident you will accept that. In the meanwhile I would request you to read the superior hindu texts to understand yourself better.

Where are you located? I can send someone from my organisation to visit you to explain the advantages of being an Hindu over other religions. Your life will change dramatically after that. You will recognise your true innerself and get in touch with your soul. That is the only way to salvation.

Christianity is a foreign religion, meant for white skins only. It enslaves you to the white skins forever. It is better you leave it quickly.

rgds

Chandra - you are partially right ,I am a born Brahman,so technically i am your master and you have no right to question me.Even in 7 births you shall never become a brahman.

Kela

Well..I am thrilled to hear that you are finally beginning to accept your hindu roots. I am even more glad that you wish to be a priest. Congratulations. Welcome.:-)

rgds

Chandra - i am happy for you but you cannot categorise me as "hindu" .I refuse to be called one,since first of all you being of lower birth have no authority to make such claims and secondly a brahman is created in God's image and according to brhaminism a brahman is god himself and soemone who can even control god.See this is very complicated not for small minds like you.Also brahman doesnt mean priest,it means a learned person,someone who excells in what he does.

Kela

"See this is very complicated not for small minds like you"

Looks like you wrote all those sentences before that and got confused yourself :-)

Your acceptance of the superiority of Hinduism is gladdening to one and all. Starting from saying you are a syrian christian to refusing to convert and then accepting being a Hindu is indeed a great thing.

rgds

Chandra :A brahman has to continously seek the truth.Me being a syrian christian is just part of that and it doesn't end there.The hinduism you talk about is something we left ages ago.You not being of privileged birth are not worthy of discussing such subjects so its best you concentrate on work you're supposed to do :)