Desicritics Comments on The Big Old Reservation Debate

Comment by Sirius

Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:24:16 EDT

Please read the last line with the correction : decaying instead of devaying...sorry for typo error.

Comment by Sirius

Thu, 20 Sep 2007 10:21:52 EDT

Excllent article. Caste system :-Four divisions of the human race were meant to make sure that a soldier does his job well and a teacher does his job well and a businessman does his job well and a physical labourer does his job equally well.It was not meant to create a layered society as we have now. In fact we have a worse system in force, a multi- layered society which has the Politicians at the top, Beaureaucrats and Businessmen under them to ensure that their corruption level does not get affected, an islolated Armed Forces, the cheifs of which can not meet together due to some political provision, thus isolated completely, and the rest of us at different layers of existence, based on the work we do,under them all. Among these downtrodden, are the ones that need reservation of jobs.These people have been toiling so hard,and their jobs are stolen away by relatives of rich and corrupt politicians. Jobs are for sale everywhere in the government sector, most appointments are made with bribes passing under.Who brought about this state of affairs? Wasn't it the politicians? I hear someone say "The people get the government they deserve" and isnt that true! It sure is.We have a government we deserve, and now it is upto us to decide if this government stays or not.We the people can change everything, everything. We can bring in the new India, but we have to work hard and eliminate devaying arms of the government, and replace them with fresh vigor.

Comment by Chandra

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:56:07 EDT

Sujai a. Thanks for saying that the prejudices have been proven in the US and not here. Thats a good starting point to say "hey chandra, I have been BSing and I dont have a shred of evidence to suggest that there is caste prejudice in indian work places" b. Not going to an English medium school or mannerisms are not because of caste prejudices. It is because of economics and an extremely poor education infrastructure. Prejudices in education do exist but they are not the reason why we dont have a good dalit supply chain of candidates. I have already highlighted the reasons why lower castes are unable to make larger numbers in the supply chain. Get your head out of the sand. Everybody is not casteist or a moron. "Because of your inability (and those of others in the industry) to understand such biases, we end up having insignifact representation of Dalits in the new industry" Chandra: If indeed I and the undustry did not understand caste biases, would we not be unbiased in hiring candidates? and still we end up with such low dalit representation? I have been saying this again and again and the only thing I can conclude is your head is in the sand. We need to fix the supply pipeline. We need to fix the supply pipeline. Forget about dalits, it is difficult to get any candidates for any job. We need to fix education, in particular the depth and quality of it. Ignorance Now, we know who is ignorant. Look at your arguments. a. You say we are prejudiced- But you have NO EVIDENCE to back that up Then you follow it up with saying "YOU DONT UNDERSTAND BIASES" HELLO, if I dont understand caste biases, how can I be prejudiced (see A)? You are confused and prejudiced. You are not a good analyst and mostly you are ignorant. God bless you anyway regards

Comment by Sujai

Wed, 14 Mar 2007 03:28:13 EDT

Chandra: Either your prejudices are fogging your mind from seeing as it is. Or you skew my arguments for your own benefits and conclude something which is completely irrelevant. I do not believe that we make an overt discrimination against Dalits in our hiring. But there are other parameters which we discard – and those parameters are overwhelmingly coming from Dalits. It is proven (in US) that our biases work against certain parameters that hail from a certain community. Most Black sounding names have received less job interviews compared to White sounding names (though the resumes were the same). In India, it works differently- inability to speak English that we are used to, not showing or displaying social mannerisms that we are used to. Looking at the kind of school one went to, etc. When you start taking those factors into considerations, we start eliminating socially backward communities (even though there is no overt discriminations against a particular caste). The prejudices and biases work in different ways. Because of your inability (and those of others in the industry) to understand such biases, we end up having insignifact representation of Dalits in the new industry. You seem to suggest that absence of enough dalits in the private sector is due to prejudice during recruitment. This is something I have never heard. Of course you haven't heard. You are looking for over discrimination to make the case, while it works in a different way. Coming to the rest of the argument, your ignorance, and your inability to know that it is ignorance is enough to suggest why we need mandatory provisions! I am happy with mandatory provision, and now I know why.

Comment by Lakshmikanth

Sun, 11 Mar 2007 03:38:58 EDT

Chandra: The "fundamental duty" of trying to look great by helping the "weaker sections" of the society and thereby helping them remain weak forever, as 60 odd years of reservations has shown. People are struggling to prove that they are weak even when they are rich!!! take creamy layer for example. Weak only because of the genes and not economy :) people never stop coming up with bullshit!

Comment by Chandra

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 07:14:16 EST

Sujai You seem to suggest that absence of enough dalits in the private sector is due to prejudice during recruitment. This is something I have never heard. I hope you can show me some research to show this linkage. I know some of us are provincial (State bias) and some are casteist (Brahmins only etc) but I have not heard of any research where they have shown prejudice between Dalits versus the upper castes. Atleast not in corporations i work with. Your comment A community gains when its individuals gain. When one member enters an engineering institute, the other younger members start to dream and work towards achieving the same. Chandra: Hi, We are not talking about education here darling. We are talking about jobs. I really dont care whether we have reservations in education because If an upper caste guy went to an NIT instead of an IIT his/her life is not going to get any worse. Same hold true if he went to a Ramaiah instead of an NIT. If i am bright, I will survive. Afterall we all know the quality of profs across (IITs included). The question is about jobs, here...you talked aspiration and role modelling. Unfortunatly, while that is a trigger, there is no data to prove it is a significant trigger. Data shows mother's education as a signifiacnt influencer on the kid attending school etc. I have already highlighted other problems in the education sector. As I said before, you wil have to improve the quality and quantity at schools and colleges and you will inevitably see a substantial pool available for recruitment. I dont see people making a racket about that. Right now the situation is, we dont have a big enough pool for any job, forget the pool being dalit or otherwise. Sujai: There are many fundamental duties- which can be voluntarily taken by the citizens of a country.Only some duties are promulgated through laws and restrictions Chandra: Can you tell me which fundamental duty i will fulfill If i recruit a dalit not suitable for a job?

Comment by Sri

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:39:15 EST

Sujai, >>I am hoping that you are asking your questions sincerely. What was that?? >>You don't go to an interview thinking, 'Yes, I will hire a Muslim guy today'. But when you see few candidates, you tend to give an opportunity to Muslim guy if the number of Muslims in your organization are well below the desired representation. Absolutely!! Exactly what AFFIRMATIVE ACTION is all about. Now,the KEY here is, the manager has the opportunity to hire the person only if : 1.the person meets the bare minimum criteria laid down by the organization,which means he qualifies for the FINAL STAGE of the selection process,from where affirmative action begins. 2.the person should be genuinely disadvantaged. TCS or Wipro (or Google,for that matter)can't hire a rich SC/ST/OBC just because his caste-member somewhere in a remote village is ill-treated. The government has had reservations in its jobs for a long time now.Noticed any "upliftment" of the lower castes??Or improvement in governance for that matter??

Comment by Sujai

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:28:18 EST

Chandra: I don't see the contradiction. Let me explain. I would want Indians to protect their environs voluntarily- don't throw garbage, don't destroy your trees. However, in absence of such a responsibility, the government may impose restrictions and provisions restricting people from contaminating water and lands and from destroying its forests. There are many fundamental duties- which can be voluntarily taken by the citizens of a country. Only some duties are promulgated through laws and restrictions. There is balance between fundamental rights and duties. We keep swaying between the two. Its unfortunate that you see it as a contradiction- but well, I can live with that!

Comment by Sujai

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:23:46 EST

Chandra: A community gains when its individuals gain. When one member enters an engineering institute, the other younger members start to dream and work towards achieving the same. The wrongs cannot be corrected in one generation. It will take time, but once one person in lower-caste family becomes engineer and gets employed in a software company in Bangalore, the benefits start reaching other members of his community. The other family members will see this as an example, encourage their kids to go to school, finish college and then get a job. If for some reason this first kid who became an engineer does not find a job, it will only perpetuate the notion that 'education is not for us'. The other members will continue to take up sundry jobs.

Comment by Chandra

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:20:49 EST

You are contradicting yourself because at one level you wish to take decisions on your own with Govt intervention and on the other you say if i dont have adequate numbers I should be forced...Thats the contradiction... Sujai You are mixing up Individual stories wuth community. You give some guy reservations and a job and why will he not benefit...of course he will...My question is not about Individuals but about community....My strategy is simple...you want to move the community....you got to put more serious efforts in improving the supply chain (education in particular)...this means.....more institutes, better teachers, better delivery, more accountability and better resources.....now I dont see that happening at all....We are so focussed on giving some dalits a few jobs and claiming how equally we treat our lower castes...In my view that is purely symbolic With respect to your merit arguments.....I will ignore it......Both of us have been in engineering colleges and in the private sector...so we know what merit is....... As far as benefits to the private sector are concernd...I totally agree...I dont see why they should get a free ride...every individual shoudl get the same benefits as a manufacturer...absolutely!!!!! and if they clamour for benefits like free land and no tax...they better take up some GOvt responsibilities...why not.....

Comment by Sujai

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:03:05 EST

Chandra: I don't know how I am contradicting myself. I never talked about 'merit'. According to me it is one of the most ill-defined and loosely used term in the Indian sub-continent. If you have hired more minorities and lower castes, then why do you get worried? If our numbers do reflect that private industry has been hiring lower castes then we need not worry. The government has suggested that it would look at the numbers and see if private sector is adequately represented. If it is not, then it would like to impose provisions. I do not agree with you that education does not change the lives of lower caste people. Getting into a good institute will definitely change their lives for the better. May be, you don't get to meet them (since you seem to be surrounded by people of higher caste), but those who enter professional institutes, they tend to have better chance to improve their lives than those who do not. Moreover, the government of India has asked private industry to suggest mechanisms to address this problem. I think the private industry should have taken a proactive stance, and suggested means and methods that are more conducive to the businesses instead of allowing the government to implement (if ever) the reservations using quotas as in Indian education. My argument is simple- if you don't do it voluntarily then it will be imposed. Private sector, which enjoys tax benefits, sops, SEZs, etc, has the responsibility to be a participant in the program to work towards bettering socio-economic conditions of people of India. Why is private industry who keep asking Indian government to give them benefits so that they can have better 'level-playing field' with foreign companies shy away from the benefits that have to bestowed to its less-privileged class in bringing them the same level-playing field? Ask the private industry to stop taking benefits from Indian government and then may be, the Indian government will stop asking them to share the responsibility!

Comment by Chandra

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 04:41:07 EST

Sujai Firstly... a.The questio WHY does not relate to the % but the reasons.....I have highlighted the reasons in the subsequent post b. Benefit by increasing Dalits........... Of course if you hire people they will benefit....My question to you is about the community...not individuals who get hire...can you elaborate how the community will gain?

Comment by Chandra

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 04:31:00 EST

Sujai This contradicts your previous statement "However, in absence of and utter lack of social responsibility from our private sector, I strongly support the mandatory reservations for lower caste (and for minority religion, women and physically handicapped) in private sector" You dont suggest in this statement that merit be the number one criteria. If you are suggesting that we try improving diversity, thats a noble idea. All of us for example have hired more number of women duirng the last few years. I have personally hired more muslims if I found one as a part of the hiring process. But, if somebody came and told me 65% to be reserved to BCs, SCs and STs to compensate for the population mix, I will get screwed. This is for very basic reasons a. 60% of E graduates (any caste) are of poor quality (you know capitation and all that stuff) b. Of the rest 60%, only a small proportion of the candidates are from the lower castes The problem is the education pool itself. The education pool is weak fro multiple reasons a. Teacher availability b. Corruption c. Poor delivery models d. Parental education e. Lack of resources etc In order to really benefit lower caste communities in the long run, one needs to definitely fix the education system. Thats not being done and as you woudl realise lots of efforts are being put. Caste prejudices are also a cause of lack of growth in education but not the most significant contributor. Next comes reservation in education. I dont see it make any negative difference to the quality of education. As anybody who went to an engineering or b school will tell you what the "real" quality of education in our e colleges and b schools are. If I a forward caste guy who due to resevations ended up from an IIT to an NIT, his life is not going to change one bit. Same holds true with an IIM guy ending up in an XLRI or FMS. On Private sector reservations.....I have a simple problem....I have a post to fill for the last 4 months....I dont get candidates (any caste).....When I look at all my clients...people are literally weeping.....If people cannot find any candidates....(because of supply)....is reservations a wise move?... There is no doubt at all that only 4-castes make up for most top managers (Brahmins, Baniyas/Similar bsiness comunities, kshatriyas and kayasths/equivalent).....I did a recent survey of 28 of my clients in Bangalore and realised that 80% of my client execitives (my contacts) were from these communities.......Its distressing sometimes...but cannot help it...... when i trawl through resumes...90% of the resumes I get are from this caste...the rest are christians.......... However when we went into a women diversity program a few years ago...it was not that difficult,,,there were far more candidates (upper caste)....... I think significant problems lie in our supply chain(as opposed to our hype about IITs/IIMs et al) and those are not even being looked at.....any engineer will know what % of his/her classmates ended up as a profesor in india (very miniscule)....same holds true with bschool grads..... In a developing economy and a Globalised world ....it is better the Govt stays away from fiddling with corporations as much as possible........ The US govt is a good example....during the time they talk about diversity, they also operate legal (h1B) programs and allow for illegal (walmart mexican hiring) programs to ensure labor costs remain low. In India on the other hand....labor costs are shooting up owing to a severe supply constraint..... at the end of the day it is better that Govt focusee its efforts on supply problems in both primary and secondary level rather than fiddling with corporations directly cheers

Comment by Chandra

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 04:24:13 EST

Comment by Sujai

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 03:59:57 EST

Sri: I am hoping that you are asking your questions sincerely. Hence, here is an attempt to answer them. You ask: "When you place ads in Times Ascent,Naukri.com etc.,what will you look for in the candidate?" What will Cisco look for when it puts an ad in Monster.com, etc? Will it say it is looking for a Black or Hispanic or Woman or a Physically Handicapped? The mindset is not allowing you to look beyond. You are going into the nitty-gritty details which are not spelled out, but practiced. Its easy to practice promotion of under-represented classes in an organization, by which you will end up maintaining good number of people from lower castes, minority religions, women, etc. You don't go to an interview thinking, 'Yes, I will hire a Muslim guy today'. But when you see few candidates, you tend to give an opportunity to Muslim guy if the number of Muslims in your organization are well below the desired representation. When such practice is instilled in a company, you will start seeing the numbers change over a period of time. When the data or statistics are read out, you will realize that you have been improving on your representations. Now, there is a conscious effort, which need to be applicable in a particular interview or job position, but spread over entire organization reflecting in small consciousness that enable well-rounded representations. If you find out that there almost no woman in your organization (or that they are very few), one can make conscious efforts to hire a woman when such a chance arises. I am not saying you go out of your way to hire a woman even if she is not qualified. If you have a position for a C programmer, you don't hire a Visual Basic programmer when many C programmers are available. But in case you have a pool of good 5 people and if one happens to be a woman, she will get the preference to be hired. That's why I said that you need to know how US companies maintain their representations. You will not see quota or %s but when such data is collected, you will see that indeed they have satisfied their mandates! :) If we had been doing this, or if our numbers show that we have been doing this, or if our numbers show that unconsciously we have been well-represented, then there is no need for government provisions. Why worry?

Comment by Chandra

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 03:39:24 EST

Sri, I know the answer to your question to sujai, but posting rules dont allow me to post the answer :-)

Comment by Roshan

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 03:23:18 EST

Sujai, you wrote in response to Sri's comment. But I'd like to reply, rather ask you a query regarding that. I'd love to talk to the CEO of an IBM or Microsoft or Google. But unfortunately I do not know them. So I'll pose this to you. I agree that diversity is important. It's essential. But do you believe that in the name of diversity they'd hire someone who is not really qualified for the job? Do you think they'd employee someone who doesn't have the skills they are looking for? I believe they hire those who have what they are looking for. If someone from SC/ST (or any backward community) has the skills/knowledge they are looking for they can very well hire them over others. In fact, they should! But reserving certain seats only for them leads to a more deserving person not getting the job. And in the name of following govt regulation they might end up hiring someone who isn't really qualified. This isn't good for any company, even in the name of diversification. Do you agree with me here or have I got it wrong?

Comment by Sri

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 03:22:59 EST

Sujai All I am asking is this: "When you place ads in Times Ascent,Naukri.com etc.,what will you look for in the candidate?" The US companies you are talking about practice "AFFIRMATIVE ACTION",i.e,Only when 2 candidates are equal on all other desired parameters that preference is given to the person (supposedly)lower in the social hierarchy. you say >>The way we are brought up in India, we tend to believe that inclusion of many classes and societies is anathema to productivity, quality, performance, merit, excellence, etc. No one is saying that. Did anyone say "Applications invited from qualified OPEN CATEGORY candidates"..??

Comment by Sujai

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 02:36:22 EST

Sri: Assume you are starting a new business in a hot new field... How will you recruit people for your organization? I would do this just the way a top technology company like Cisco or Microsoft would do :) To understand how that is done, you need to know how these organizations maintain diversity and still be in the top position without compromising performance, quality, excellence, etc. If you want to know how it can be done in India, you should wait for few years for some of us to set examples :) The way we are brought up in India, we tend to believe that inclusion of many classes and societies is anathema to productivity, quality, performance, merit, excellence, etc. Then, Why do so many MBA schools in US and Europe put emphasis on 'diversity' as a very important ingredient to make a good company? Why do Silicon Valley startups once they grow to a good size start working towards maintaining diversity, and still be able to compete with almost any company? Why innovation doesn't take a hit, but actually improves in companies who have employees from diverse backgrounds? You could either take a look at the top companies of the world to learn, or just talk to a CEO or a senior executive of a top company like Microsoft, IBM or Google!!

Comment by Sujai

Sat, 10 Mar 2007 02:21:02 EST

Chandra: Why do you think the % of dalits/ tribals would be low in the Pvt sector? Because I work in Private Sector and I know so. Because those who work in Private Sector know so (unless they want to close their eyes to realities around them). Also because a survey done by Outlook suggests an overwhelming domination of upper caste in private sector(nanopolitan has link to this document). If indeed private sector is genuine in their attempts to address socio-economic inequities, they should come forward to share the data on representations of different classes, which they don't (Why would they not unless they know very well they would fail the test!) Secondly, Can you detail how Private sector reservations will benefit dalits and tribals? Reservation in private sector (in absence of voluntary mechanism to address socio-economic inequities) will increase the number of dalits in private sector. That's how it will benefit them! :) (I am a bit surprised that you asked this, but I have ceased to get surprised these days. 'Education' seems to be so uncommon these days!)

Comment by Roshan

Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:53:54 EST

Sujai, I work in the industry and I really do not know how many employees are from which caste. Neither do I bother to find out. That's how it should be anywhere, you caste, religion really shouldn't matter. What matters is your skill and knowledge and how you use them. You said that the Indian Pvt sector had 50 years to prove that they are working for the welfare of minorities too. Well, that I believe to be incorrect. Pvt sector has existed in India in a big way 10 maybe 15 years now. More specifically, it was only after liberalization that the industry showed it's full potential. So I'd say that the government has had 60 years to uplift the disadvantaged, not pvt sector. Govt hasn't done much and is now trying to put that responsibility onto the pvt sector. I was watching a show on CNBC tonight where an industry representative was suggesting that the govt hand over the management of govt secondary schools to pvt companies. Instead of companies paying the extra 1% cess to the govt, where more than half of it would be eaten up the some politicians and bureaucrats, they use it to run these schools. Kerala already has this kind of partnership. As I have written, this is what the govt should look at doing, not force reservations down companies throats.

Comment by skp

Fri, 9 Mar 2007 12:31:24 EST

I am trying to gather data on India, I found this piece of research INDIA'S INFORMAL ECONOMY – FACING THE 21ST CENTURY http://www.arts.cornell.edu/econ/indiaconf/Harriss-White2.pdf It can be a good read, if one wants to go beyond the 'reservation debate' Best

Comment by Sri

Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:25:56 EST

OK Sujai, Assume you are starting a new business in a hot new field. You have the backing of venture capitalists and all that... How will you recruit people for your organization? Answer this and the debate can move a level higher.

Comment by Chandra

Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:19:56 EST

Sujai Why do you think the % of dalits/ tribals would be low in the Pvt sector? Secondly, Can you detail how Private sector reservations will benefit dalits and tribals? rgds

Comment by Sujai

Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:31:14 EST

Why should the private sector worry? IF indeed the statistics reveal that adequate number of lower-caste people is being hired, then the Indian government need not impose the reservations. ELSE This ELSE case is what worries the private sector because they know that they will fail this test. All of us working in this industry very well know that most of our employees are primarily from the minority upper caste. I do not like mandatory reservations for private sector and given a choice I wouldn't want India to go this path. However, in absence of and utter lack of social responsibility from our private sector, I strongly support the mandatory reservations for lower caste (and for minority religion, women and physically handicapped) in private sector. Indian private sector had 50 years to show off their true intent (of social responsibility). If indeed it is found that they have not been doing it, the government should step in- before it's too late.