Desicritics Comments on Cultural Conflict: Looking Beyond the Skin and the Tongue

Comment by imparare

Sun, 15 Apr 2007 02:11:07 EDT

Interesting comments.. :D

Comment by vijay

Fri, 16 Feb 2007 03:22:23 EST

@anupallavi, I will use what you had used to explain the B'lore situation. We don't see the Tulus or Kodavas up in arms against the Tamils whether it is the cauvery issue or language issue. It is purely the b'lore Kannadigas as the Tamils tend to dominate in numbers in and around the cantonment region 'coz of historical settlement and not just coz of IT boom. The Kannadigas tend to be dominant in North and Northwestern part of b'lore and the Tamil in the south and south eastern parts generally since the british times. An interesting article on the b'lore issue: http://www.iisg.nl/~sephis/pdf/nairpap.pdf

Comment by Rajesh

Tue, 13 Feb 2007 04:02:38 EST

everybody knows how north indians will dominate given an oppurtunity. for them amitabh is the best actor and lata mangeshkar is the best singer(as though sivaji ganesan and p susheela are novice). its lack of understanding on the core issue has made the author write like this. hope he does homework before posting

Comment by thamizhan

Sun, 11 Feb 2007 02:57:06 EST

Both MGR and Rajini say that they will give thier life to Tamil, becos both are not Tamils! You don't have Sivaji or Kamal saying that. Also comparing Tamil with Hindi is childish. Hindi is a baby among Indian languages and should not even come into the quotient. Am glad that I live in Malaysia where Tamil is recognised as the language of Indians here and is an official language here besides a few other countries. Where else is Hindi outside India? Pls put away you comparisons and read up. You should be proud that Tamil is an Indian language!

Comment by Agathian

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:18:58 EST

Nice Article.. interesting comments.. I am a Tamilian, living in US and was in Bangalore for few months on work.. Admit i didnt pick up that much Kannada. Thinking back - i probably would have picked up some, if i had to. The fact is, I was able to get by with my English and Tamil without much struggle. Whether it be shopping in a mall or street corner grocer.. Hitching a auto, eating in a restaurant, visiting places..etc.. etc.. I doubt this happened by design. It is pure economics.. Vendors and service folks pick up the language of their customer, because that is good for business. People lead busy lives [ and/or are inherently lazy ], so they dont pickup new languages if they can get by with what they know.. I am talking majority of people here.. Obviously there will be some section of fanatics.. Linguistic/ethnic/social/religious/otherwise.. The thing is, all these riots, fanned by politicians, end up creating more of those at the ground level - by creating insecurity/anger/fear.. IMHO... Discussions like this, even if it might cross lines at times, is lot more healthy.. Among my Tamil friends who were living in bangalore for a while, some had picked up Kannada well, some haven't.. Mostly going by the area they lived, people they have to deal with, workplace, etc.. etc.. I have Kannadiga friends who spoke good Tamil as well.. along the same lines. Hindi agitation - it was a political mistake on part of the then central government to force Hindi on the fledgling country, with so many linguistic minorities. Mind you, i studied hindi, while living in Chennai. I dont hate Hindi or any language per se.. just pointing out the background of the issue.. As to mandating Tamil in primary schools - It is part political and part linguistic.. there were agitations going on against growing westernization of the society and also against the people from out of the state not picking up local language [ similar to bangalore and other places..] While, like Kishore, i am against forcing anything on anybody... There are times i have felt that such measure is warranted - for the sake of the locals, not linguistic minorities. For ex. i have a few Telugu friends - who can converse in Telugu, but cant read or write.. While they can converse/read/write fine in Hindi/English. Primarily because they never had a chance to study their mother tongue in school - English medium with hindi for second language. I happen to think that is a shame.. There are so many treasures - linguistic/otherwise - in these languages, which will soon be forgotten... Just my $0.02

Comment by vatsan

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:11:06 EST

kishore, you seem to assume that there is no cultural imposition of hindi, agreed it isnt govt sponsored, but it still exists. when a north indian visits chennai, they speak hindi and don bother to learn the language, and expect ppl to speak hindi. this is a subtle form of cultural imposition. secondly, news media, too is myopic and ignores the southern states, once again delhi/mumbai and hindi cinema is given priority, under the name of national news channels. bollywood is equated to indian cinema. all this is a form f cultural imposition. this forces those in the southern states and north east to hold onto their nationalism. understand cultural imposition also happens within society and isnt driven only by the state.

Comment by Kishore

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:23:39 EST

Shweta, Great! I'm not far. :) I've lived in Delhi, Chennai and now in Bangalore. So I speak all those languages they speak there fairly, and understand a couple more. vatsan, I give it you on the 60s issue. Now, you tell me the justification behind imposing Tamil-medium education which is more recent. Well, the point is - it's cultural insecurity that is driving people and not sensibility. As I said, the post took "two instances" to explain the cultural insecurity of certain section of the people. May be I should have given another 10 examples, but that would have ended up in a complete digression from the crux of the point.

Comment by vatsan

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 04:15:56 EST

in 1965, sasthri and desai, against nehrus commitment, which said hindi wont be implemented hindi in states where they din want to, decided to implement hindi. its because of this hindi imposition that the movement arose, now can u stop quoting just that and also quote the hindi fanatics?

Comment by vatsan

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 04:04:28 EST

@kishore, if u knew a little more about the entire anti-hindi protests and its origins, you will understand it began because hindi was forced upon tamil nadu. in the 1960, all official communication was in the form of hindi, and people in TN din speak hindi. this was hindi imposition on the part of the central govt on the state govt. this was the trigger for the anti-hindi movement. later communication was in both hindi and english (whch people in tn spoke) now do u get how the movement is because of the central govt imposing hindi? next time do ur research before making such posts!!

Comment by Shweta

Sat, 10 Feb 2007 01:44:00 EST

Kishore: Point noted, point understood. Free will and choice is everyone's right.... and if a person chooses to exercise that right where language is concerned it shouldn't be construed as cultural indifference.. While your article title implied that you might be touching on cultural conflicts arising from co-existance of different races (differnt skin color) & languages, you ended up focusing only on the two southern states, whose population has similar skin color, almost similar cultures & religions, but for the tongue.... Don't be surprised that your underlying message of 'exercising freedom of choice' got lost in the Kannada-Tamil debate... I totally agree with your point btw... I live in Karnataka but can speak 5 languages fluently, can understand Tamil (I don't even live in B'lore); not because I needed to, but becoz it helps my communication skills & I love learning new languages.

Comment by Kishore

Fri, 9 Feb 2007 23:51:50 EST

Dee, Thanks! Atleast somebody understands my point. I don't have anything about the Kannada-Tamil tussles. My only point is - learning a language or not learning it or whatever must be left to sole discretion of the individual, and there is no sense in forcing someone into it..

Comment by Damilan

Fri, 9 Feb 2007 23:47:54 EST

You can't force anyone to learn Hindi. It's the individual's choice to learn it or not. Period. At the same time no one stops you from learning Hindi in Tamil Nadu. To call opposition of imposing Hindi on people as Cultural Insecurity is highly idiotic.

Comment by vatsan

Fri, 9 Feb 2007 23:29:51 EST

and this debate is still goin on? all those who dont agree with kishore, i think his post has indicated his understanding of the four southern states, its close to zilch and the issues involved. so i think this debate is a exercise in futility. kishore, next time u post on something u do understand.

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Fri, 9 Feb 2007 23:13:55 EST

Nothing should be made mandatory as far as culture is concerned. It should be a self driven motivation. I am a Hindi speaking Indian living in Bangalore, been here for over six month and have realized that it isn't so difficult to understand either languages, well at least I manage to get the gist of the conversations whirling around me and its fun trying to decipher whats been said since most realize that I'm an eager learner and they are patient teachers. Remember the old tale about trees that don't bend get uprooted? We have to keep evolving and not be stagnant. One can live within the parameters of one's culture and yet learn something else from another culture but again it should not be thrust on people.

Comment by raj

Fri, 9 Feb 2007 22:43:32 EST

Kishore, why do you stubbornly resist reason?What xenophobia? Are Hindi-speakers being dot-busted in Tamil nadu? Victimised? Riots against non-tamils in TN? Have you heard of it ever? Riots against tamils in Banglaore? Sounds familiar, doesnt it? Papa, please dont preach. As for Hindi, why dont you understand that not speaking/learning Hindi is not treason - it is a fundamental right for me not to speak Hindi. Hindi is not special. It is just one of the languages. No, No, there is nothing called the national language? Hell, if it were, have you ever thought why should tamils oppose such imposition? A language should become national on its own steam - not through force or implication that those whod ont speak it are anti-national. For crying's sake, understand that. Good luck with reason and logic in the future, man. I think you better do that imposition - might ingrain some basic facts in your mind.

Comment by Kishore

Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:50:06 EST

Ki, >> we just don't think it's worth learning. There you go again! Indifference is not xenophobia. But, in this case, indifference has given rise to xenophobia. bachodi, Ki et.al., The topic is turning out to be a Kannada-Tamil issue, when these were supposed to be two instances of what I feel is a result of "cultural insecurity" of a section of people.

Comment by bachodi

Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:17:04 EST

about "personal viewpoint of the author of that post/comment. The fact that the author/commentor is a Tamilian does " See what rulers think: (CTRL+C , CTRL+V of this weeks week mag. report ) As a fledgling political party in the 1980s, the ___ took up unpopular measures like tree felling, as a show of strength. As the party grew in stature, it launched an environmental movement, Pasumai Thayagam, and planted trees as an act of atonement. Later, it joined the _____ party in the Tamil Protection Movement against Tamil films with titles in other languages. They threatened to disrupt the shooting of films with 'un-Tamil' names. This led to widespread discontent in the film industry. Chief Minister found a simple solution: films named in Tamil would enjoy a waiver of entertainment tax. The latest pressure exercise by the ___ is the Tamizhar Maana Meetpu Iyakkam, a movement launched on January 27 to redeem the Tamil pride in language, music, culture and history. The first task of the movement is to ensure that Tamil is the official language in all government offices. "We have given two months to the government to follow this, failing which our volunteers will picket the offices," The next job is to ensure that people from other states do not exploit Tamils. "We do not mind people coming to Tamil Nadu to earn their living but we will not allow them to exploit Tamils,"

Comment by Ki

Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:06:35 EST

There's a huge difference between Kannadigas (and the Sena, let's not forget that) wanting to force out non-natives and Tamils not wanting to learn Hindi. Unfortunately, you seem to think they're the same. There's also the huge difference the average Bangalorean resent the presence of non-natives and Karunanidhi wanting to force Tamil in primary schools. You don't seem to be aware of this difference either. The fact is most Tamils don't hate Hindi, we just don't think it's worth learning. We don't care if you speak it, but we do get pissed when you expect us to understand you. I think that's just human, not xenophobic. Xenophobia would be if we prevented people of the state from learning Hindi, or if there were riots in Chennai asking Hindi speakers to "go home." Now, please write 100 times imposition: "Indifference is not xenophobia."

Comment by Kishore

Fri, 9 Feb 2007 09:36:43 EST

Shweta, Good points, worth another post. :) Chennai is guilty of its indifference towards Hindi as well. So is Bangalore's fear of losing the Kannada identity and asking corporates to give preferance to Kannadigas.. >>In the older times, pride for one's state was a big deal Not just older times. Karunanidhi attempted to force Tamil-medium education in primary schools in TN, and this happened just a few years ago. And it required umpteen PILs from nervous parents and judicial intervential to stop him. It's one thing to be proud of your state and language, but forcing is not...

Comment by Shweta

Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:53:26 EST

When you say culture has a tendency to break free, I totally agree with you, but just as with religion, man (as in human being) can & will use culture as an excuse or a platform to segregate and divide.... when it suits a personal or political agenda. The public in many cases, who support these agendas, are most of the time just riding a wave, with no interest in the basic cause or the end result.... I agree with Anupallavi when she says Kannadigas let a lot slip by in the name of cosmopolitization. If it wasn't for this attitude anyone living in Karnataka would find it hard to survive... Imagine if auto drivers refused to talk to you in any other language but Kannada/English, or if people turned their nose up at you if you spoke in another language (like say Tamil?) If anyone at all has to understand the concept of 'live & let live'; in other terms learn the language if want to, it has to be the Tamilians... As for the "MGR saying I will give my life for 'Tamil', Rajkumar saying he will do it for 'Kannada' & Amitabh not saying he would do it for 'Hindi'" My take on it is: In the older times, pride for one's state was a big deal. Dialogues such as the above were used in context of taking about their States, giving their lives for the land (Tamil Nadu and Kannada Nadu)... I doubt if you'd find Rajkumar espouse this dialogue in every movie of his, but for the patriotic kinds..... As for Amitabh, which State would he give his life for? ... Uttar Pradesh, Haryana, Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, parts of Sikkim and Himachal Pradesh; where Hindi is the spoken language of the State? (In current times, you'd include Uttaranchal, Chattisgarh and Jharkhand).....

Comment by Kishore

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 07:30:05 EST

DG, oopps... Coincidence. Pure coincindence, I never realized the similarities, but it's not who you think... :) Suj, I agree it's good to learn the language. My only point is, a localite should not say - "learn my language or get out of this place".

Comment by Sujatha

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 05:34:07 EST

Anupallavi, do you have a blog or other website?

Comment by Sujatha

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 05:27:03 EST

Kishore, why would you feel forced to learn the local language? Shouldn't you want to learn it? If you went to a foreign land (forget other states of India), don't you feel like partaking of life as the locals do? If the language were different than yours (let's say French or Italian or German), wouldn't you get a kick out of learning to speak those languages and conversing with the locals (even though they might speak perfectly good English)?

Comment by Desigirl

Wed, 7 Feb 2007 04:18:36 EST

I know of a couple - Husband whose mother-tongue is Tamil and wife whose mother-tongue is Telugu. They've been married for 8+ years. They converse in English. They speak no more than a few words of their spouse's language. And they are Happily married. Oi oi! Watch it!!!

Comment by Kishore

Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:06:39 EST

Anupallavi, Your sentiments are justified. But the link you have pointed is a personal viewpoint of the author of that post/comment. The fact that the author/commentor is a Tamilian does not change my view. Everyone are entitled to their own views, right? So let's just agree to disagree on this. :)