OPINION

Boycott Against Israeli Apartheid

January 15, 2007
Liam Bailey

Many people compare the Palestinian's plight to that of South Africans living under apartheid; two peoples living in one country in completely separate circumstances, one being oppressed and treated inhumanely at the rule of the other. Israel's separation wall that is being erected, at its current course annexing yet more Arab land reinforces the Israeli apartheid view.

Palestinians --like South Africans under apartheid-- are suffering a great deal, especially in Gaza where they have been forced by an EU, U.S boycott to live in poverty as bad as anywhere else in the world. Unlike South Africans there is no significant campaign to stop the oppression. The British anti-apartheid movement became extremely popular across the western world, attracting the support of the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties. Its campaign of boycotting the South African regime, with such popular support, made a big difference in ending the apartheid, according to the people who lived under the regime.

Last year, in a cry for similar support, authoritative members of Palestinian civil society called for an academic, consumer, and cultural boycott of Israel as well as divestment from churches, universities, states, cities, unions, banks and anyone else who wants to take part. The text of the call was:

We, representatives of Palestinian civil society, call upon international civil society organizations and people of conscience all over the world to impose broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era. We appeal to you to pressure your respective states to impose embargoes and sanctions against Israel. We also invite conscientious Israelis to support this Call, for the sake of justice and genuine peace.

These non-violent punitive measures should be maintained until Israel meets its obligation to recognize the Palestinian people's inalienable right to self-determination and fully complies with the precepts of international law by:
1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall;
2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and
3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194.

The call was endorsed by 171 Palestinian organizations, campaigns, unions and refugee rights associations, as the original call said: from "the three integral parts of the people of Palestine: Palestinian refugees, Palestinians under occupation and Palestinian citizens of Israel." The boycott --which could become a major part in the fight to end Israeli oppression-- has begun. Several factors are stopping it from having the popular support from mainstream media and western governments enjoyed by the South African anti-apartheid movement:

One: The similarities between Israel treatment of the Palestinians and the South African Apartheid is not commonly connected, especially in the mainstream media, which for whatever reason refuses to make the connection.

Two: We live in a world ruled by the U.S, with Israel by their side, Israel have been extremely keen to have any form of boycott or divestment labelled as anti-Semitic, an almost equal campaign by pro-Israeli media and journalists has begun for people to boycott the boycott.


Three: Fear of terrorism, which gives weight to Islamaphobia and credibility and therefore increasing popularity to far-right wing groups and political parties, happily criticising the entire Muslim community as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers. This means that the Palestinians actively fighting the oppressive Israeli occupation with the only means they have, is played out in the media and therefore seen by the world as terrorism.

Four: Al Qaeda continually seeking to affiliate its cause, which is, in short the murder of Americans and their allies anywhere in the world, with the Palestinians cause, seeking to live in an independent and oppression free-state, and be treated as equals by the world. This adds weight to the media stories, and that the Palestinians fighting the occupation are part of the same Islamic Extremist ideology that is a threat to the western world.

All these factors combine to prevent the calls for boycott and divestment of Israel, attempting similar activities as the anti-(South African)-Apartheid movement and with a similar cause, freeing a people from an oppressive and racist regime, from enjoying anywhere near the same level of support. The campaign is young and this is my way of helping.

Israeli academic and author Ilan Pape is a strong supporter of the boycott. In a recent interview given to Christopher Brown, Mr Pape said of the Boycott's value in achieving a just solution for the Palestinians:

"It will be very hard in this globalized world we live in to bring about economic sanctions, which would have been the most effective in forcing a change in Israeli policy.

The second best, and more feasible, [way] is to send a message to Israel from the societies at large that its policies are unacceptable, that as long as it continues to do what it does it cannot be accepted ... It cannot be in the community of civilized nations.

I think there is both a symbolic and a very political significance to a coordinated reaction by societies in the west for a message, a clear message, that is conveyed in the way of a boycott of divestment or any other symbolic act which says that there is a price tag attached to the policies that you pursue and as long as you pursue these policies, you are not welcomed here. Not as individuals — you are not welcomed here if you represent a certain ideology, a certain state, and especially if you appear as an official representative of this state."

To the Israeli claims that the boycott is anti-semitic Mr Pape said: "the Israelis are over-using the anti-semitic accusation against anyone who criticizes them. Not only [against] those who call for a boycott, even the mildest criticism of Israel is depicted here as an act of anti-semitism. Maybe one or two known anti-semites have joined the wagon, but that doesn't prove anything. The fact is that Israel wants to be immune from any criticism. And the shield it uses is always anti-semitism."

Mr Pape's final word in the interview was:

"Israel needs a wake-up call. Israelis don't know that this is what the world thinks about them and I think that civil societies around the world can be the alarm clock for them, and they should be the alarm clock."

The daily violence Palestinians have to endure under Israeli occupation, combined with what can safely be called "measured" "genocide" and intentions to ethnically cleanse the West Bank, should mean Palestinians have the massive support of all campaigners against oppression. They don't.

The boycott is a way that you and I can support the Palestinians struggle, a way to let Israel know that the developed and civilized world will no longer tolerate their behaviour, even if our government's will. I will be supporting it, click here to find out how you can too.

*Liam Bailey writes regularly for the Palestine Chronicle and Arabic Media Internet Network. He is an advanced blogger on the Washington Post's Post Global and runs the War Pages blog. You can contact him by E-mail.
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#1
Ruvy in Jerusalem
January 15, 2007
07:10 PM

Back at it with the same garbage, eh Liam? Given that I have more contempt for the Zionist regime of criminals than you do, I shouldn't really comment here, lest it make me look like I'm defending the bastards myself.

While the Arabs do the dirty work of slitting throats here and in Europe, good Europeans like you nod approvingly and write articles like the one above.

Let's put it this way, Liam. Boycotts backed by non-Jews like you, and given "amens" by court Jews like Pape, only convince the rest of us that you are indeed out to kill us, if not by gas chambers, than through economic boycotts. In essence, all you accomplish is to turn potential Jewish traitors allies into loyal Jews who have only contempt for the goyim out to get them - like you. And if it turns out that you are indeed right, you'll pick up the paper one morning and discover what happens when we Jews decide to be guilty of the crimes that you have already convicted us of.

Mass murder does mean mass murder, and pushed hard enough, we will fulfill your worst nightmares and prove you right. And when we do, we won't give a tinkers' dam about moralizers like you from overseas have to say or think, and we'll send your soldiers home in body-bags when your leaders send them. We kicked you damned Brits out of here once and we'll do it again.

Really, Liam, you should focus your attention on ways that Arabs living in Israel and Jordan can make money. They get sermons on getting rid of Israel and murdering Jews all the time from the mosques and their own media. They don't need you to convince them further.

#2
The Buddha Smiled
URL
January 16, 2007
09:15 AM

Liam,

A well thought out article - I appreciate how you brought in the comment from Ilan Pape where he differentiates between boycotting ordinary Israelis vs the representatives of the state. I personally support the idea of the boycott - it is in so many ways a Gandhian approach of taking the moral route. We also saw how effective the policy was in ending apartheid in South Africa - pressure at home against UK institutions that chose to do business in apartheid South Africa forced many to pull out, and put significant pressure on the tyrannical regime itself.

Ruvy, I thought you were a spiritual man. Your incredibly virulent comments above are so out of line, racist, disgusting and totally out of line. You are a mean, petty, disgusting and racist individual who should have no business at all writing on a forum which seeks out debate, discussion and knowledge through dialogue. I am further incensed by the threat implicit in your comment - if you DARE boycott us, we will just go out and implement "A Final Solution" of our own. Are you sure you don't want to climb onto a soap box and shout, "It's all the fault of the Arabs"? How DARE you seek to abrogate debate by trying to threaten people who choose to hold views contrary to your own? Who the hell do you think you are, the f*****g Gestapo?! You have been allowed to get away with too much on this forum, and while you may think you can do what you like within the borders of your own country, I for one will not sit back and watch you try to hijack debate on an internet forum, on a site that seeks to embrace and collate all that is related to "Desis" around the world. This forum is grounded in the Indian tradition of debate and frankly I have NO idea why you, as a narrow minded hypocritical bigot choose to spew your venom on this forum. You are neither Desi, nor have you demonstrated in any of your posts any desire to embrace the tolerance that this forum has sought to propagate. Furthermore, you're not exactly convertiny any of us to your cause by your petty, disgusting, hate-filled, racist bilge.

A call to Desicritics editors - I appreciate the value of free speech, but does that extend to hearing threats of annhilation, mass murder and genocide?! I don't think comments of the sort that Ruvy has made above are at all appropriate.

#3
temporal
URL
January 16, 2007
02:33 PM

TBS:

A call to Desicritics editors - I appreciate the value of free speech, but does that extend to hearing threats of annhilation, mass murder and genocide?! I don't think comments of the sort that Ruvy has made above are at all appropriate.

Ayatollah Ruvy has as much right to express his views as you, me or Imam Osama

one thing to bear in mind is he only represents a certain group there...

as for "threats of annhilation, mass murder and genocide"... please cut him some slack...he may have gotten carried away in the heat of the moment

peace!

#4
Krishna
URL
January 16, 2007
04:06 PM

Liam, very nice and considerate article. I have a few comments.

1. While a large number of countries sympathize with the Palestinians and are critical about Israeli policies, today's political arrangement makes this plan highly impractical and inefficient. And without a large scale governmental support, this boycott will be a token measure. This is a testament to how much US influence pervades present day political, economic scene.

Take the situation of India. She has deep historical, cultural reasons to support the Palestinian cause. But lately various considerations force India to align with the US (voting against Iran, overtures to Israel, nuclear deal with the US).

2. You mentioned the role of such a boycott in ending apartheid in SA. I am more inclined to think that such boycotts are more a symptom of widespread condemnation of bad policies. Boycotts in themselves do no cause anything - there is a large baggage of causes which are responsible. Boycott is an incidental part of that baggage. However current political situation does not seem capable of any positive action.

Of course, on a personal level many of these measures can and should be taken up.

#5
Liam Bailey
URL
January 17, 2007
01:28 PM

Mark

I have studied the history of the conflict at great length since the beginning. The UN partitioned the land, Israel declared its own state, the Arabs attacked, and the Israelis committed ethnic cleansing, just three years after what the Nazis did to them.

If Franco is right and the Arabs did barter down the land Israel was given to a wasteland in scattered parts, then this is what has driven the Zionist agenda to steal the land which it covets for the final Jewish state.

Read my next article, an interview with Ilan Pape, who confirms what I am saying.

Since the Suez war the U.S has ensured that none of the Arab countries or all of them put together are a match for the IDF, giving them nuclear arms sealed the deal. Israel remains in a constant state of existential fear for the simple reason it ensures continued U.S support and ensures the U.S will continue to guarantee their military hegemony in the region.

Refer to my article: Supporting Peace is not abandoning Israel, where I lay out how the Hamas Covenance as Franco puts it is nothing more than powerful talk from a disempowered people. Hamas members have grown up under Israel's occupation, the organization, the anger and the violence towards Israel is a direct result of Israel's actions. Hamas is a resistance movement, what do you think the Nazi's would call the French resistance now... Terrorists, they fought with similar insurgent tactics, minus the suicide bombings, i.e. the only means they have available.

If you can honestly say that Israel really fears for its existence because of Hamas then you are guilty of the same things you accuse me of. With all the will, determination, anger, resentment etc in the world, Hamas will never have the means to defeat the IDF and Israel knows it. As for Iran, read my article Is Iran Unstoppable Part III on Blogcritics, for a clear explanation of why Iran will never attack Israel.

Israel talks about fearing for its existence, allowing them to constantly remind us of the holocaust, covering up for their actions of oppression, ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and genocide by attrition in Gaza. They have plenty of time to accomplish the Zionist goal and get all the land they so covet, the wall is practically achieving it in one go, an International Court has ruled the wall illegal, human rights groups around the world, even conservative Israeli human rights groups are against its construction but does the world act. NO!

Anyone saying anything against Israel is anti-Semitic and under this cover of reduced criticism and reflecting all criticism as religious discrimination, despite their utter religious discrimination, they get on with their business. Israeli Jews, who remember the holocaust so well, will remember how the world stayed silent. The same is happening now on behalf of the Palestinians, the world is turning a blind eye and so are Israelis. The boycott is one way for the world to tell Israelis to topple their Zionist governance. In the mid-1940s Zionism was a great help to Judaism, but now it is giving Jews a bad name.

Franco I am not biased and I have no predisposed ideas or agenda. I entered journalism as Bush and the ware on terror's biggest fan. Read Islamic Jihad Terrorism: Americas Frankenstein, one of my first articles, the research for which changed my viewpoint. My opinions are based on facts and you will note the number of links to support my opinions in each article.

For those who refuse the link between Israel and apartheid South Africa, South African Professor of Law and current special rapporteur for the UN on the OPT, John Duggard, has written articles on Israel's apartheid, argue with him.


#6
Anindo
January 17, 2007
03:27 PM

"Take the situation of India. She has deep historical, cultural reasons to support the Palestinian cause. But lately various considerations force India to align with the US (voting against Iran, overtures to Israel, nuclear deal with the US)."

Can you expand on India's "deep historical, cultural reasons to support the Palestinian cause."? I am a bit lost here. Some facts would help.

My opinion:

India should firmly entrench herself with the United States. Of course, it is not an easy task to sip tea with the Americans. But it is far better than not sipping tea at all. India's foreign policy should be based on realpolitik rather than some ideological gibberish.

India is not sufficiently powerful or rich as the United States. It does not have the resources to tackle the "Islamists" knocking at our doors and threatening to break them down without meaningful alliances in this world. Moreover, the two countries have lot in common from the point of view of philosophy of freedom and liberty. If we play our cards right, this is a win-win scenario.

Instead of perpetually trying to fight for lost causes and gaining nothing in return, why don't we start taking steps to put our own house in order and take care of business?

Regards,
Aninda

#7
Abir
URL
January 17, 2007
05:20 PM

Fuck Palestine! There you have it.. my two word summary of what I think about the issue. A bunch of terrorists and their families will never have my support. There is NO justification of terrorism. And until and unless the Palestinians stop the mass murder of Jews, I will pray for their quick demise. Fuck Islam

#8
Krishna
URL
January 17, 2007
06:00 PM

Anindo, this is what I had in mind:

1. India has very strong ties to Islamic tradition starting with the third largest population. India had close historic ties to Iran (e.g many Islmanic scholars visited India 1000 years ago and translated many works into Persian) and those ties continued into modern times. India also had close relations with Egypt.

2. India has a tradition of supporting (however symbolically) oppressed people. South African blacks, supporting East Pakistan in its struggle for independence, giving Tibetan exiles safe residence in India.

3. India was one of the only 13 countries which voted AGAINST the UN resolution 181 which partitioned Palestine. India (except for two small countries: Greence, Cuba) is the only one of these 13 which did not have a Muslim majority.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm

On the other hand, India was never traditionally allied with the US or its interests. Even though you clearly want India to be close to America and think that it makes lot of sense, all I meant was that HISTORICALLY it was not the case.

#9
Anindo
January 17, 2007
07:22 PM

Point #1:
There was no United States 1000 years ago. The concept of separation of state from religion did not exist. Moreover, there were no nation states 1000 years ago. Islamic civilization was at the height of its glory in those days. Muslim scholars made significant contributions to literature, art, and science at that time.

It was necessary for the Indian princely domains to deal with the Muslim world at that time because that made practical sense. Islamic states of middle-east have nothing valuable to offer in today's world other than oil. The ideas that shape the policies of these nations are retrograde and anachronistic. These ideas need to be shunned by a modern nation state.

You are making the mistake of taking events that happened 1000 years ago and projecting those happenings on to events happening today. Human society and thought processes have evolved a lot since then. Mid-east nations have not kept pace with this evolution. This might be romantic but definitely not rational.

Point #2:
You are equating struggles of different people all over the world thinking that they are all the same. That is a mistake.

I do not believe in the methods that Palestinians have employed to fight their struggle. Initially, they might have been justified in their struggle. But, over the years they have lost the moral high ground by their random acts of violence perpetrated against innocent civilians all around the world. Nowadays, it seems that their struggle is based on the inability of the Muslim world to co-exist with other religions, especially Jews, in a peaceful manner.

Equating the Palestinian struggle with the Tibetan struggle led by Dalai Lama is an insult. I have nothing more to add.

Point #3:
So what if India voted against that resolution? What did India get in return for those votes? Did India get a seat in OIC? Did it prevent Pakistan from using the stage provided by the OIC to repeatedly pass resolutions condemning India for Kashmir? Did any Islamic country condemn Pakistan for the acts of terrorism against India? Did we get to buy oil at discount prices? How many of these countries want India to join the UNSC?

We do not owe the Islamic nations anything other than money and I prefer that India always deal with them in hard cash.

It is time to change the traditions and demand accountability. Traditions mean zilch in international politics. Interests mean a lot. In order to keep my response short, I will refrain from talking about the last ten years of India-Israeli relationship. I am sure you already know about that and do not need a reminder.

Regards,

#10
Krishna
URL
January 17, 2007
07:50 PM

Anindo, there is a fundamental difference in our approaches to international relations. You think in temrs of interests/give-and-take. I do not think in those terms. I believe in taking principled stands, however quaint that may sound. With this crucial difference in preliminary premises we will never see eye to eye.

Thanks for your correction to point 2. That is a good point which I overlooked. While I too deplore certain methods of Palestinian resistance, the overwhelming fact that towers above everything else is the massive injustice to Palestinians. Indian concept of non-violence and Dalai Lama's approach are truly noble. But Palestinian response is natural is a very trivial sense, though they are wrong (and also ineffective). Remember that systemic terrorism against Israel did not begin till 1987 (with the first Intifada). Till then there were isolated and serious incidents of terrorism. I find it remarkable that it too so much time for Palestinians to embrace violence (40 years since Israel's formation and 20 years since Israel's occupation).

I think it is very depressing that there is no universal support to Palestine grievances and condemnation of Israeli policies.

#11
Franco
URL
January 17, 2007
08:05 PM

Lima,

As you know we have just recently crossed paths in the last couple of days over at BC where you posted the opinion pieces. I am sorry you had problems getting your reply post to me there. Thank you for the link to this site.

I do not know what the problem was and I see that you finally got another post into the thread. We will be in discussion/debate here or back over at BC? Which would you prefer?

#12
Franco
URL
January 17, 2007
08:07 PM

Liam,

My apologies on misspelling your name.

#13
Anindo
January 17, 2007
08:28 PM

"we will never see eye to eye"
I agreed with you on that. But you can take heart from the fact that you will have lot of support base among India's "jholawala" crowd who have made a career by fighting for "justice" all around the world except in their own backyard. I am a Bengali. I should know.

"I think it is very depressing that there is no universal support to Palestine grievances and condemnation of Israeli policies."
I have no regrets. I am quite happy that foreign policy realists within India finally decided to establish relationship with Israel in 1990s. The potential for trade and investments between the two countries is immense. The achievements of Israeli researchers in areas like signal processing, mission critical softwares etc. is quite impressive. Hope some of it is passed on to the Indians working in India.

The Palestinians and Indians do not have any common interests or culture. We have nothing to learn from each other. India's Muslims do share the same religion with them. That is one factor that probably propelled India towards Palestine till early 1990s. But not any more. Goodwill is not permanent. It needs to be reciprocated in tangibles for the relationship to stay alive.

Indians should not meddle into what is essentially a civilizational clash between the Jews and the Muslims in the garb of an ethnic conflict. If forced to choose a side for its own survival, India should go with United States and Israel. No second thoughts about that.

Regards,

#14
Anamika
URL
January 17, 2007
09:05 PM

Liam - BRAVO! You give me hope that there is still a possibility of a new generation of conscientous independent journalists-in-making. Here is a fervent wish that you may grow into another Fisk - a journalist par excellence and a man of integriy!

Buddha Smiled - I agree! COMPLETELY!!!!!!

Ruvy - given the fact that you spend most of your time on the forum whinge-ing about how the Jews have been "persecuted", the Holocaust, the "Arabs who hate us" etc, WHAT gives you the right to threaten another final solution.

Just for the record: May I point out something very simple? Unlike your home country - the USA -Israel has NO strategic depth, and hence NO possibility of real second strike capacity. You can delude yourself as much as you like but with ALL the might of Israel and USA, you have not been able to squash the Palestinians.

Even if you kill ALL of them off - and doubt if that will be manageable, you will have to fight other battles. A reality check my friend - there are 15 million Jews in the world. That doesn't give you much scope for carrying out "Final Solutions" in any grand scale as regards the Palestinians, although you can keep implementing initial stages of apartheid and ghetto-ization. Frankly given the ground realities, my bet is on the Palestinians! So get over the delusion already!

Temporal - glad you are watching. But I really did think this is a forum for dialogue not hate-filled rants! But then give the racists and fascists enough rope and they shall hang themselves with it. :-)

Finally Anindo - may I remind you that as far back as 2,500 years ago, India had ties with West Asia? More importantly, India has always taken a stand on what is "right" rather than what is "useful" in terms of our international ties and policy (as post 1947, but also as per tradition).

That is why the royal family of Egypt sought political asylum in India (at the time of Cleopatra), why the Buddhist monks who established monasteries as far as France impacted the development of "compassion" for the new Testament, and why the name for Indian in Tibetan is "Gyagar" - the land of dance!

Since our independence, we have backed the "right" and hence in IR terms played the "spoiler" for the super powers. I for one am happy that we do so - especially in case of the Palestinians!

The path of dharma is harder to walk but it is the right one! Or rather as Shahrukh Khan says - at every turn there are two paths - one that looks easier but is the wrong one and will lead to grief and the other that is narrow and hard but will finally be the right one.

I am glad we - as India - have chosen since the naqba to stand for what is right! :-)

#15
Ruvy in Jerusalem
January 18, 2007
05:07 AM

I have a number of comments to respond to:

First to Temporal, who can still tell what freedom of speech is. Residing on the North American continent is doing you some good. They still know what freedom of speech is there. The more restricted version of it comes through in some of the comments I read here on this thread...

The comments policy, as I'm aware of it, restricts one from making personal attacks on fellow writers on this site, and from posting (particularly in a malicious way or way designed to mislead others) under different names from the same ISP.

It doesn't yet prevent one from expressing one's thanks to fellow writers...

And now the fun starts.

Liam, I feel very sad that instead of seeking to truly better the lives of those Arabs who read your work, you have decided to roll in the offal of their lies, and in the offal of the treasonous lies of self-hating Jews - the ones that Hitler missed. You have chosen to be far less than that which you might become. Fortunately, you are still young, and can still learn, while there is yet time.

I appear to have wiped the "smile" off the face of "The Buddha Smiled." He would have my opinions banned from this site because I suggested that, having been convicted of ethnic cleansing and genocide by a hate-filled and hypocritical world, a world of false values, olám hashéker as we call it in Hebrew, Israelis might decide to indulge in them. You have never seen a crazed mob of Israelis demanding justice. I have.

I would point out for you, and for Anamika, that the stink of the gas chamber does not waft across my land, the burnt flesh of the victims of gas chambers do no fall like a condemning ash upon our cities, as occurred in Germany, Poland and the Ukraine. And we Jews have not massacred off the inhabitants of Shekhem (Nablus), Gaza, or Hebron. My warning is that incited far enough, that day may come. We are not Nazis and certainly we are not like the Boers who justified enslaving blacks with their Bibles. The blood of my people still cries out for vengeance from the hand of the Arabs, from their massacres in Hebron and in Gush Etzion, but it is not the kind of cry that yet reaches the heavens from Europe. G-d will judge the Europeans.

As for us Jews, it is past time to move on from the holocaust, and stop worshipping its memory or unnecessarily enshrining its victims with sainthood status. But that is an issue of closure for us Jews, and not your concern or your business.

Finally, though, I would point out that India, unlike Israel, has had an open dictatorship, and during the days of Indira Gandhi's dictatorial rule, the first thing to go was freedom of speech. Those of you who would ban my words on this site have learned well from her example. Congratulations. Take a bow with a flourish.

#16
Sujai
URL
January 18, 2007
06:29 AM

Ruvy in Jerusalem:
You weep, but yet you do not forgive.
You talk of pity to yourself, but yet you don't give any to your enemy.

You say, very prophetically-
"My warning is that incited far enough, that day may come."

And what day are you talking about?

In your own words-
"that the stink of the gas chamber does not waft across my land, the burnt flesh of the victims of gas chambers do no fall like a condemning ash upon our cities, as occurred in Germany, Poland and the Ukraine."

Dangerous, very dangerous.

At any day, I would rather have an 'evil but rational' enemy compared to a 'benign but irrational' enemy. The hope is that at least, I can reason with that 'evil but rational' enemy.

#17
Sujai
URL
January 18, 2007
06:38 AM

Ruvy in Jerusalem:

What were you thinking when you said:

Mass murder does mean mass murder, and pushed hard enough, we will fulfill your worst nightmares and prove you right. And when we do, we won't give a tinkers' dam about moralizers like you from overseas have to say or think, and we'll send your soldiers home in body-bags when your leaders send them. We kicked you damned Brits out of here once and we'll do it again.

I thought you were an adult male with a grownup son. I thought you were the only voice here on this forum representing Israel. You have a responsibility to position yourself and your people in a better way. The more you write the stuff like above, the more we will be pushed into thinking that Israel is really filled with gun-toting fanatics out to wipe out anyone in their vicinity to create lebensraum.

You have lot of responsibility being the only representative here. Don't you think?

#18
Anamika
URL
January 18, 2007
07:55 AM

Ruvy, you just keep talking on this forum because with each post you are doing a better job of revealing the vicious depths of Israeli bigotry and hatred for the Palestinians as well as Israeli support for its government's apartheid and ethnic cleansing policy. No Palestinian Authority PR official could have done better at exposing the Israeli genocidal mindset and policy!

You say: "the stink of the gas chamber does not waft across my land, the burnt flesh of the victims of gas chambers do no fall like a condemning ash upon our cities, as occurred in Germany, Poland and the Ukraine. And we Jews have not massacred off the inhabitants of Shekhem (Nablus), Gaza, or Hebron. My warning is that incited far enough, that day may come. We are not Nazis and certainly we are not like the Boers who justified enslaving blacks with their Bibles. The blood of my people still cries out for vengeance from the hand of the Arabs, from their massacres in Hebron and in Gush Etzion, but it is not the kind of cry that yet reaches the heavens from Europe. G-d will judge the Europeans."

No, your hands stink with the stench of American supplied cluster bombs that you drop in their hundreds of thousands in civilian areas. Your lands "waft" with the cries of the unborn of Gaza who are aborted by continuous use of Israeli high frequency "sound" weapons. We could be here for a long time if the sins of the Israeli state against the Palestinian people are to be detailed in full! And yes, while you are not Boers, Israel has been incredibly enthusiastic in hiring former apartheid officials in order to refine its own policy against the Palestinians. Let me point out that South African apartheid was ably and happily supported by the "honorary white" Jews - yes, there was Bible thumping to exploit and enslave the black population of South Africa, but there were quite a few Torahs alongside the New Testament being thumped for THAT disgusting enterprise. The same Torahs/Bibles have been invited to particpate in the Palestinian apartheid since late 1970s.

Moreover, Israeli government's own figures show that Israel has killed far greater numbers of Palestinians since 1948 than any "bloodshed" of the Jews that the Arabs have caused. But let me guess, you get your history from Hollywood and AIPAC, right?

I also find it repulsive that you conveniently forget that anti-Jewish sentiments gain forced in the Middle East only with the establishment and execution of the Zionist project, especially after the Balfour declaration betrayal of Arabs and the Sykes-Picot agreement post-World War I.

BEFORE that Jews found safety and shelter in the Middle East when none was available in Christian majority areas. MUSLIMS gave Jews shelter after the Spanish expulsion! Muslim-ruled Palestine offered safety to the Venetian Jews when "Christian" Europe grew too dangerous. And Muslim lands mark the spaces where Sephardic Jewish poetry, art and culture flourished.

You refuse to acknowledge that history but not all Jewish or Israeli are so ignorant or prejudiced. You would be served well by reading some of the work that your own country produces.

And once again, when bereft of argument, you resort to pathetic insults like: "I would point out that India, unlike Israel, has had an open dictatorship, and during the days of Indira Gandhi's dictatorial rule, the first thing to go was freedom of speech."

YES we know there was the Emergency in 1975. It lasted for 18 months AND Gandhi was punished by the voters IN A DEMOCRATIC VOTE practised by a country that has ALWAYS exercised UNIVERSAL franchise and DIRECT representation - do you even realise that THOSE are key to a democracy? But wait neither US nor Israel have a tradition of THOSE basic democratic principles!

May I ALSO point out the absolutely ridiculous logic of your grandstanding on "Israeli democracy" - which does NOT provide universal franchise, practises a policy of apartheid (disenfranchisement), AND restricts speech by claiming all criticism of its policies is "anti-Semitism" (ably aided in this matter by the AIPAC in the USA), and officially SANCTIONING its soldier's killing of journalists who report otherwise. Israel is also the ONLY "Western-style" (read American-style) democracy to have ELECTED a war criminal to its highest office. Yes you have a lot to be proud of.

I do not know about the Buddha Smiled - but obviously you are SO ignorant of India that you have no clue what the name signifies. STRANGE that you choose to be on this forum and have shown NO curiosity or interest in South Asian culture or matters. Why ARE you here Ruvy other than to spew hatred for Muslims and Arabs?

I agree with TBS - you contribute ZERO to Desi issues, have NO interest in finding out or learning about the region, and the only reason I can find for you being here is the Israeli propaganda policy of placing its official bullshit on all forums available through an ubiquitous poster. But let me point out that you are doing your own cause more harm than good by your views.

As I said before - genocide is ugly. And you Ruvy have shown yourself to be morally abhorrent!





#19
Ruvy in Jerusalem
January 18, 2007
08:52 AM

Sujai,

You're awful slow not too have figured out that we Jews here are dangerous. You're unwise not to realize that the constant drumbeat of self righteous condemnation coming from your shores, from Europe and from self-hating Jews world wide (like Ilan Pape) because we want to live in peace and security and are indeed tired of a world that condemns us for desiring this, will create a tide of resentment that will make the murderous Arab mobs look like children peeing in the garden.

But the danger does not come from Jews who try to keep the commandments like me. It will come from the secular Jews who have rejected those commandments, who now (less and less) lap up the propaganda of the state media, but who do not have the mishma'at (discipline) that trying to follow the commandments of the Torah gives you, or the kavód adám (respect for mankind) that it engenders in you.

So, when the day comes (and that day will come) when this country is attacked by a murderous barrage of missiles from the north and the east, these secular Jews will massacre the Arabs in their midst, and they will march east with their guns to massacre the Arabs in Qalqiliya, Jenin, Shekhem, Hebron, YeriHo; they will march south to massacre the Arabs in Gaza and drive them into the sea. Those Arabs who are not massacred will flee from before the aroused and undisciplined lion of Judah.

But, Sujai, this will not be genocide. The Kingdom of Jordan will be there to welcome these new refugees from Israel. The vast majority of these Arabs will live and not die.

People like you will jump up and down in indignation and have apoplectic fits, that Jews dare defend their homes and get rid of enemies in their midst, but we - neither the secular Jews who do the killing, nor the more religious Jews (like me) who try to restrain them - will give a tinkers' dam for your self righteous blather. If we read what you have to say at all, we'll just laugh in your faces.

I shiver to fear what will happen to the traitorous bastards like Ilan Pape and Uri Avneri in such an atmosphere. I shiver to fear what will happen to the rich secular Jews in their suburbs if they try to stop such a thing from happening. For they have created this society of injustice, and they too, will be its victims.

I'm trying to tell you about this society, and what it is really like. I am not a rich comfortable academic who has sold his soul to the EU or the the USA. So, pay attention. A responsible man is warning you of what will occur, not feeding your ego by condemning the work of redeeming Israel.

#20
Ruvy in Jerusalem
January 18, 2007
09:10 AM

Anamika,

"I would point out that India, unlike Israel, has had an open dictatorship, and during the days of Indira Gandhi's dictatorial rule, the first thing to go was freedom of speech."

I will make this as fast as I can - I have to get to Jerusalem and catch a bus shortly.

Pay careful attention to that quote. Israel had never really been a democracy at all. But, it has not been an open dictatorship. There is no democracy here to grandstand upon. If there were, then I could get my thinking from AIPAC and Hollywood. But AIPAC is nothing but a moneyed American Jewish representative of a morally bankrupt Zionist regime, and the majority of Hollywood Jews have no respect or understanding of what Israel truly is or represents. They buy the same line of propaganda you do.

If you want an answer to your comments, then let's put it this way. For a long time I had a stereotype of the Indian - a person who stands arrogantly upon his ancient traditions to lecture and look down upon all others. I remember the Indian politicians lecturing Israel many years ago, and formed that stereotype then. For the most part, the people I've met at this site are nothing like that.

But you, Anamika, are the apotheosis of it.

#21
Sujai
URL
January 18, 2007
09:15 AM

Ruvy:
Thanks for the comment.

All you have to do is speak at length, and we know how your mind works. Good to know that Israel has such great soldiers like you. It has a long future, as promised by God.

Your long invective is very educational. I am not sure if every Israeli thinks like you. If they do indeed, I pity every Arab in that region who will have to face the wrath.

May be, I am 'slow' and 'unwise' to understand Israeli intentions, but I know when to shut up :)

#22
Anamika
URL
January 18, 2007
12:25 PM

Ruvy, I am grateful to our ancestors and our philosophers who built that ancient tradition because it has given us the ability to stand for what is right. And in ALL cases, Genocide is WRONG! Even when the "Jews2 like you carry it out.

Sujai, my friend, don't "pity" the Arabs. A "rag tag group of terrorists" as Israel's PM, Defense Minister and Army chief called the Hizbollah managed to stand up - with limited and outdated weaponry - to the "mighty" Israeli army which is qualified as one of the largest and best equipped in the world. (Watch this space as Ruvy now explains how Israel "held back! - hehehehehe)

I firmly believe that every Ramayana (not in political ideological terms, but simply as a fight of right and wrong) ends with the victory of Rama. It may come at a high price and take a long time but that is the essence of Nataraja's tandava. And while the Palestinians are not "righteous" by any long shot, they are the aggrieved party who have been long denied justice - lets wait and see the next step of the tandava when injustice shall be corrected and justice shall prevail.

So I have no pity for the Arabs, just as I will have no pity for the Israelis on that day that Ruvy threatens. But I shall have compassion for those who will suffer for the delusions of a few...

Ruvy - happy with my "ancient tradition that looks down on you" now?





#23
temporal
URL
January 18, 2007
02:28 PM

ruvy:

"the more one knows the more humble one becomes." - mahajirzadeh

Ruvy:

First to Temporal, who can still tell what freedom of speech is. Residing on the North American continent is doing you some good.

i do not know how educated you are...and you may have three doctorates for all i know...but man...you do come across as mighty condescending...

and this is not related to your response to me only...almost everyone is swept with the same condescending broom

;)


.... he who knows not and knows not he knows not.......

#24
temporal
URL
January 18, 2007
02:42 PM

ana:

Temporal - glad you are watching. But I really did think this is a forum for dialogue not hate-filled rants! But then give the racists and fascists enough rope and they shall hang themselves with it. :-)

yaar hindi/urdu aati hay? yeh apna bhai ziyadah paRha likha nahiN nazar aata hay...aur sonay per suhaga yeh hay kay 'born-again' bhee hay

is qis'm kay log buhat khatarnaak hotay haiN...in maiN aur mullah omar, osama bin george, geroge bin osama, dick bin pipes wagerah maiN koi ziyadah faraq nahi hay...

sub kay sub khood ko sahih aur doosron ko ghalat samajhtay haiN...tolerance bilkul bhee nahin hay!

btw aap buhat badmash hain;)...'cutting slack' wali baat ko kahaan se kahaan lay gaeen

jeeti raho, khush raho

t

#25
Anamika
URL
January 18, 2007
02:57 PM

Maan gaye boss. Yeh pagal hai aur mujhe achchhi tarah malum hai ki pagal hai.

Lekin kuch maryadayein aisi hoti hain jo paar nahin ki jateen.

Jab poori kaum ko marne ki baat ko log aam baton ki tarah manane lagte hain, tab hum vinaash -

aur sampoorn vinash ki taraf pahla pad badhate hain.

Aur rahin baat meri, hamare mitra jaise logon ka sachcha rang aise hi dikhta hai. :-)

#26
Liam Bailey
URL
January 20, 2007
05:24 PM

I do find you convinced in your own opinions based on what you call "research for which changed your viewpoint". Whether this new viewpoint is new in the sense that it changed your original stance by 180 degrees, or whether this new viewpoint only relates to enhancing your original position to a future extreme, this has not been made clear.

In either event, I am suggesting that your "research" has not gone deep or far enough and therefor limits the scope of its perspective allowing for conclusions for agendas that are not only ineffective but that are further dangerous for both Arab and Jew in advancing it.


If you bothered to read the link I provided, to Islamic Jihad Terrorism: Americas Frankenstein you would know that I refer to a complete 180 degree change in my viewpoint:

The first paragraph:

I was a firm believer in the war on terror, its aims, resolution never to bow down and eventually its ultimate success. This article would have reflected that, but while trawling through reams and reams of official government releases in order to write said article, I found evidence that starting in 1979 the American Government, headed up then by President Carter had begun a policy of funding Islamic terrorists to fight the soviets in Afghanistan. As well as extensive evidence that this policy was not only expanded in Afghanistan but also funded other groups opposing communism in other countries. Eventually my own views were changed and this article will now show, that since 1979 (although there are instances before) successive American Presidents selectively or intentionally ignorant attitude toward unintended consequences of foreign policy decisions, has figured largely in the scourge of Islamic extremist terrorism the world now faces

All true, U.S support of the Afghan Mujahideen and pressure for Saudi Arabia to match it led to the hiring of Osama Bin Laden by Saudi intelligence as a funding/recruitment officer, keeping a record of funds and recruits for the CIA known as the base (Al Qaeda. It also provided massive funding for Pakistan's ISI which led not only to the money and arms reaching some of the countries most extreme groups such as Hiz-B-Islami, who are still causing our forces trouble in Afghanistan, but Pakistan also used the money to build Madrassas to shelter the Mujahideen and to indoctrinate new fighters from Pakistan's youth and the masses of refugees crossing the border. These same Madrassas were the starting point for the Pakistan funded Taliban uprising, Pakistan's leadership was keen to install a strict Islamic ally to power in Kabul from the miserable civil war/partially Northern Alliance controlled ruins that was Afghanistan in the post-Soviet era. In case you missed it then, two of the world's biggest current problems can therefore be traced back to one past American Foreign policy mis-adventure. Also unearthing a massive irony, in defeating one threat that couldn't be defeated by direct military force, the Soviet army, hence the need to use (the Mujahideen) proxy, they created another threat that can't be defeated by direct military force, a well organized and armed force of Islamic extremists terrorists, fuelled by a violently anti-American interpretation of Salafist Islam, propelled to fame and a new influx of recruits by 9/11 Afghanistan and Iraq. This changed my view on the U.S and the War on Terror. As did watching a program showing all the CIA "interventions around the world and the ensuing "blowback" from each.

From reading that article and from this comment so far you will see that I went to great lengths in my research, at the time I was editing all pages into word instead of just saving them in my favorites as I now do. I still have that folder of my research and it is 16 mb of PDF documents and web pages stored in word on the Soviet Afghan invasion, the U.S involvement in it and stopping other communist advances around the world with similar and equally brutal proxy wars, and on the recent war on terror. Including reading pages and pages of Digital National Security Archive documents, on the above matters and the Iraqgate affair, released by the U.S government only after a significant amount of pressure.

Just as I looked into that article with an open mind I look into every article with an open mind. I maintain balance in all other articles but it is hard to find any balance in the Israeli Palestinian conflict, getting back to that.

Firstly, the reason why I simplified my comment is not that I don't know the facts, I mean, I have Google too. Before I started writing about the conflict I researched everything you wrote in your comment. It can all be found in the Wikipedia article on the conflict, which covers from before the First World War. Since then I have researched every article on the conflict at the same great lengths as my first article.

I agree with you that the Arab countries are as much to blame for the situation in Israel/Palestine as Israel or anyone else, but what is done is done. All we can do is try to engage with the current situation and anyone who can't see the only people really suffering in the current conflict is the Palestinians is guilty of the same bias I am being accused of. Accepting that the Palestinians are suffering from Israel's disregard for International Law, Civil and Human rights in the current situation is why I wrote this article hoping to bring popularity to a cause capable of ending it, as the British Anti-Apartheid movement ended the South African Apartheid because of their popular support allowing a relentless campaign.

The reason I simplified the history in my response was to prove to Mark Schannon I had researched the history of the conflict, in response to his criticism. Like you I work full time, but unlike you (I think) I am trying to make a career out of writing. What you have responded with is enough for two articles, so I would rather spend my precious free time writing articles that are actually going to advance my career ambitions. I know all the facts you covered but we will never agree, i.e. after reading your comment concentrating on my timeframe as you called it, I would have still simplified it in exactly the same way. You criticize me for comparing the Israeli ethnic cleansing to the Nazi holocaust, which I didn't do, I provided a link to an article giving a detailed analysis of exactly how Israel ethnically cleansed Palestine and from that I know the but you can't say one act of ethnic two are nowhere near similar so knowing that why would I compare them? You can't say Israel's ethnic cleansing is okay because Israel was under attack and the Nazi's were on the offensive, that really is biased. Who is on the offensive now? ETHNIC CLEANSING IS WRONG FULL STOP!

One thing I have learned from these forums is that, for some reason, certain people just interpret facts into totally different opinions, i.e. you and I could read the same lengthy essay on this conflict and at the end come up with completely differing opinions on it. I don't know whether it comes from our parents or perhaps a chemical difference in the brain, what I do know is that you won't change my viewpoint and I probably won't change yours, so instead of wasting countless hours trying lets just agree to disagree. Like I say, I work full-time, have a new born baby boy and as well as freelance journalism I write and achieve publication with poetry and many short-stories. I have precious enough little time for my writing without wasting my time on a futile willy waving contest, at the end of which we will still be splitting hairs of the meaning of the same crucial facts. I respect your viewpoint, the firm knowledge it is based on and your right to express it, all I expect in return is the same respect.

I respect your viewpoint and your entitlement to it, and hope you can do the same for mine.

#27
Anamika
URL
January 20, 2007
11:46 PM

Liam - bravo! My respect for you grows with each post.

#28
Liam Bailey
URL
January 21, 2007
06:07 PM

Ruvy, I know it has been a while but I just read your comment:

Let's put it this way, Liam. Boycotts backed by non-Jews like you, and given "amens" by court Jews like Pape, only convince the rest of us that you are indeed out to kill us, if not by gas chambers, than through economic boycotts. In essence, all you accomplish is to turn potential Jewish traitors allies into loyal Jews who have only contempt for the goyim out to get them - like you. And if it turns out that you are indeed right, you'll pick up the paper one morning and discover what happens when we Jews decide to be guilty of the crimes that you have already convicted us of.

Ok, for a start, when did I become an International Court judge? I didn't, therefore I am in no poisition to convict Israel of anything. Your chosen turn of phrase proves to me that, on a subconcious level at least you know Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is criminal.

Secondly, thank you for proving my point. My article refers to a civil boycott, which people can choose to abide by, or not, government's will almost always choose not to. The Palestinians have been enduring the poverty of a boycott supported by most western governments (except Russia) and I haven't heard them saying the world is trying to kill them. Comparing this measure, which at most will affect Israel's economy in a very very slight way if it is lucky, most likely it will achieve the desired effect and more Israelis will realize the world finds its behaviour abhorrent. It won't cause starvation and you mentioning the gas chambers proves my point that Israelis who support the theft of land at the cost of its occupants by whatever means neccesary will mention the holocaust and anti-semitism as a shield to prevent criticism of their actions. It won't wash.

You know this boycott will never be supported by a western world scared to piss off America, you know it will never result in the death of one Israeli, and therefore you know it is nothing like the gas chambers.

The days are gone when the holocaust will prevent criticism of Israel's behaviour, in every growing generation there are more people who can see this situation for what it is. The floodgates are opening slowly but surely, your days are numbered. And before you say that I mean by this the extermination of the Jewish race, I DON'T WANT ALL JEWS TO BE KILLED. I just want an end to the double standards and indiscriminate killing in the name of self defence from a threat far less like the holocaust than the actions carried out by Israel.

I just want your Zionist government to give the Palestinians what they deserve after years of their torment and cruelty. An independent Palestinian state within the 67 borders and a chane to fend for themselves. You try to push the idea that such a state would be racked by poverty as it currently is. Do you know how hard it is for Palestinians to export their goods because of IDF checkpoints and strict border and seaport controls, nearly impossible. Not to mention the settlers harrassing the olive growers and soldiers deciding day to day whether they can tend to their own land, especially since the wall was erected.

If Palestinians had control of their own borders, their own sea and airports I suggest that the Palestinian economy would be in a much better position. Perhaps that is what your Zionist government is scared of, well, we know it is scared of any potential threat to its hegemony, look at Iran. Again they are presenting the holocaust, and fear that Ahmadinejad could do it all again, when anyone who knows anything knows that this would be laughed out of the realms of fantasy. Maybe they are scared that the Palestinians, given a decent chance at running their own economy would present a threat to their U.S crutched hegemony in the region.

#29
Ruvy in Jerusalem
January 21, 2007
06:57 PM

Liam,

Get it through your head. The Zionist movement and the state it wrought, the State of Israel, are both on the way into history's dustbin. They have both fulfilled the purpose they were meant to fulfill, and now the politicians who built up the State (or rather the children of those who built up the State) are killing it off in a suicidal march to attempt to mimic America in culture, and please Europeans in giving up their own land. Therefore, this nation will collapse. It is collapsing already. Half of its cabinet is under investigation for one variety of crime or another, officials quit when their incompetence becomes too great a stink, many civil servants are not even being paid...

And the government ran a stupid war in Lebanon. Nobody in Israel has any faith in its government - not Jewish Israelis, not Arab Israelis, not the Arabs who are not officially Israelis - nobody. There is plenty that is criminal about the Zionist regime. It's eating itself alive!

All this whining about ethnic cleansing about a government that is floating trial balloons every single week about pulling out of the Heights of Golan and Judea and Samaria is just useless posturing. All these accusations fly in the face of the facts on the ground. I see those facts on the ground daily. All you see is the funny mirror of Arab propaganda that you have bought into. And of course, a good part of the folks of the Indian sub-continent buy into the same garbage and repeat it here in every language that this site will accept.

#30
Liam Bailey
URL
January 21, 2007
08:29 PM

Okay Ruvy deny that these are prime examples of Israel's ethnic cleansing. Bedhouin tribes populated the land long before Israel was even talked about, now Israel is destroying their homes again and again until they move to where Israel wants them in confined ghetto's giving it more room to build Jewish homes. Racist, and ethnic cleansing and they continue to get away with it.

#31
Ruvy in Jerusalem
January 22, 2007
07:11 PM

Liam,

You are so intent in painting me as the Zionist scapegoat here that you forget that I am a lot more critical of this regime than you are. I understand its weaknesses from the inside. Your examples of mistreatment of Bedouin within "green line" Israel are one reason that this government and the military it increasingly politicizes will collapse.

The IDF relies on Bedouin trackers to help it in the Negev. While the IDF may appreciate these trackers, the other parts of the Israeli bureaucracy, who bring with them all the racism, stupidity and patronizing attitude that one can expect from fools who have neither education nor love of the land they live in, abuse Bedouin for simply desiring to have their own homes on their own terms. That is called freedom, and no Israeli bureaucrat understands that concept at all, except perhaps those born in America or Canada. Most Israeli bureaucrats either have or have inherited the mentality of Eastern European Jews - people who have no concept of freedom at all...

This is not ethnic cleansing. What happened in Gush Qatif was ethnic cleansing. The Israeli government is not intent on making the lives of the Bedouin miserable or on breaking their spirit. They are just too stupid to have respect for human beings or for human dignity. In Gush Qatif, the government HAD the intent of ruining the lives of the people it had encouraged to live there. It was a real case of "getting the Jews" because these people had built successful lives by following Jewish law and not really participating in the sick imitation of America that Israeli culture had become. They were Jews who were free. Not only did that freedom had to be destroyed, but the hate that motivates secular Israeli elites dictated that their lives had to be destroyed as well.

In time it will become clear that in Gush Qatif, the Israeli government killed the dream it had pretended to foster for so many years. The Zionist regime committed suicide there. It is just a matter of time until the corpse falls over and dies.

#32
spankzilla
URL
June 3, 2007
10:13 AM

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