Desicritics Comments on An Unqualified Apology to Every Untouchable

Comment by bd

Wed, 16 Apr 2008 01:25:43 EDT

#16 Morris, you are right, since we have signed up for equal opportunities and no discrimination, we should definitely shout against the woman in the temple issue, but while there is a role for the state, there is a bigger role for the citizen. When you and I say more about that, then the behaviour will change, when we say more about inheritance laws, then the behaviour will change... Morris: sure, we all do not have to agree with it, plus I do not keep scriptures in the same reverence as they do, I have a mind and I use it :), discrimination is stupid anyway, anybody who says that it is because it was written down in some bloody book immediately tells me that he is some grey cells short of a brain.

Comment by Man Singh

Tue, 15 Apr 2008 19:44:49 EDT

BD #13 I have visted that site and they are doing good work. But I do not agree with them on one issue ie who is to blame for the eveil? They blame Dharma and Scriptures for it. I consider it as a social ill originated out of adharma (kaam krodh lobh moh and mad) ir lust anger greed attachment and ego about which scriptures are full to denounce. Adharma done by landlords and some greedy priests should not be put on teh head of those great people known as `Brahmins' who led a pious life dedicated to society who lived in forest did research and spread the findings to humanity free of cost without patenting and making money? In spite of that I happyly support their activities as I belive they have very noble intentions and when they will read scriptures themselves sometime they will understand the truth and stop `demonising Brahmins' for the misdeeds of landlords and greedy priests. I am happy to see that Hindu youth today are onserving, analysing and taking corrective action to solve their social ills. Let's all support such noble minded people.

Comment by Morris

Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:18:10 EDT

bd I understand the kind of descrimination you pointed out. I agree it is built in all of us more or less. I am simply talking about giving eaual respect to all. I may not marry a particular woman, but I would support her right to be in temple. I am talking about this basic right. How long does it take to rectify that. And that is why I asked those questions.

Comment by bd

Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:46:30 EDT

Morris, discrimination is unfortunately built into human beings. Positive discrimination means that out of 100 guys, a girl likes one. Negative discrimination means that the girl likes one because he is black and not green (in case of racism) and the girl likes one because he is upper caste versus lower caste (in case of casteism). it is very difficult to break it, my friend, if you want to see it, compare the brides wanted section of our indian newspapers versus say the wanted sections of a british newspaper. Why on earth would we see a notice like, "risthta required for nair/maratha/khattri girl, wheatish complexion...."

Comment by Morris

Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:20:07 EDT

bd I fully agree with you. You are coming out some good ones. My guess is that caste system may linger on for a few generations. But is it so difficult to tackle the discrimination? It is unbelievable that even now some temples will not allow low caste Hindus to enter. Is it not illegal? Are all levels of Governments commited to remove this shameful practice? Should'nt temple trustees be held responsible and perhaps fined? If it is removed in the places of worship, rest will probably become a little easier. Just wondering!

Comment by bd

Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:37:53 EDT

good of you to write, Man Singh, do join the navya shastra mailing list group, very good bunch of people there.

Comment by Man Singh

Tue, 15 Apr 2008 12:12:10 EDT

Untouchability is a social ill in Hindu Society. It is cruel, unscinetific and inhuman. And I side with BD unconditionaly to put my apology for such inhuman crime against humanity pervailing in our society. To eliminate the problem we have to go to the roots of the problem and strike where root is. Social ills are Adharma. Just opposite to Dharma. Dharma is meant for upliftment of humanity and not to exploit it. Landlords who acted like traitors and sided with foreign invaders in cnnivance with some greedy priests established such nonsense inhuman exploitative traditions in our society. Even Dr Ambedkar agreed that before 6th century there was no untouchability in India. he refers to Baanbhat's `kadambari' in which a chandal girl freely used to enetr in Kings palaces and sell her pet animals like parrots. King Shoodrak was so imprssed by here talent that he marreid here. Untouchabilty florished alongwith landlrodism jamindaari system when everybody became dependent on landlords for their living and they used the rest as slaves. Those who are familira with rural India know pretty well its landownership that commands resepct. There are some landlords from so called lower casts rewarded to protect lives of Britishers in 1857 war of independence and they also behave in same discriminatory ways. I have hundreds of evidence from Ancient scriptures proving untouchability altogather unrelated to Dharma. Shivpuran (Shivpuran/Vidhyeshwara Samhita/pranavpanchakharmantra chapter17 shloka 52 to 60) tells how step by step we humans who are Shudras by Birth(as per Purush Sookta of vedas) go beyong varna and get Mukti. Sri Ramcharitmanas Kakbhushandi says he was a shudra in previous birth and lived in kausalpur. A Brahmin Guru gave him mantra and he used to chant mantra sitting in a temple.( Utterkand doha 96 to 105 contains full story) proves beyong doubt that Dharma never restricted Shudra from entering temple or seeking spritual developement. Bhagwatpuran Chapter 6 (parayan Vidhi) shloka 6 clearly says wherever there is Bhagwat katha Shudra and women who usually don'nt find time for spritual pracices also should be invited to katha. Shivpuran again says Shiv Puran /Rudra Samhita /shivpujan vidhi Chapter 11 shloka 4) that Lord Shiva is worshpped by all varnas including Shudras. Niralambopnishad openly raises this question : ka jaati. what's jaati and conclused that Blood, flesh bones and muscles come by birth and can'nt be basis of jaati. It is our actions and behaviour that determines what we are. Niralambopnishad What's Jaati(cast) : Skin, blood, flesh ,bones (all obtained by birth) or soul , none determines cast. Its behavior of a person that determines Therefore elimination of Landlordism and feudalism is dierctly linked to elimination of cast discrimination. This Adharma being done by landlords greedy priests and crooked politicians has to be eliminated and Dharma has to be reestablihsed. First step immediately needed is forming a All India temple similar to Shiromani Guru dwara Prabandhak Commitee or All India Wakaf Borad to manage temples, reforming society and using donations for welfare of dalits and other weaker sectionss of society. This was the original purpose of temples as temples are not needed for individual spritual developemnt. temples are for social welfare only. I again apologise for any adharma done to our Dalit brothers by our forefathers and request all of us to do our bit to reestablish Dharma. let's always remember Tulsidaasji's final definition of Dharma and Adharma : `Parhit saris dharam nahi bhai, parpeeda sam nahi adhmai' (helping others is Dharma and torturing others is Adharma) Those landlords and associated greedy priests who tortured dalits and other weaker sections of society are simply Adharmi people in teh garb of dharma and clean is the need of the hour.

Comment by bd

Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:28:18 EDT

CS and chandra, holy moly, i didnt realise this board was still active. CS, you need to take some insomnia pills :). but seriously, this is something that is close to my heart and I strongly suggest anybody who cares about hinduism to join NS. One will learn much from that list. Secondly, its not progressive to worry about caste. It is simply caring for your fellow human being and that does not need political labels. Ascribing labels to this makes this a bit tougher, if you know what I mean. Thirdly, I am also a firm believer in focus. People compare Affirmative Action in the USA to reservations in India. No Sir, they are not the same, if we confuse things, then solutions cannot be determined. Caste is a religio-socio-economic issue which has not that deep roots. Racism has deeper roots. Caste can be removed, race, no, not that easily. So when the UN conference mixes up things, then it diffuses the problem. What's the result? they bring in race, they bring in the israeli palestinian crisis, they bring in caste. Ok, so what have they achieved? not much. Hence focus. Now, I am tending towards what chandra said, this is a peculiarly Hindu and Indian problem, if one internationalises this, they simply make people defensive about it, and then resolution is much more difficult. We are disproportionately sensitive to outside criticism and commentary. But then, to go back to removal of this, its problematical and much more complex because our religion does not work on the basis of scriptural orders unlike Abrahmic religions. But first step for all of us is to recognise the debt we pay and the mistake we all made... sorry for going on..., lol

Comment by commonsense

Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:40:41 EDT

chandra, I agree with you...there is always that other angle too and yes it can lead to unnecessary complications...the chance/opening for all sorts of other international organizations to interfere, patronize, relive colonial rule through proxy etc....on the other hand though, India is no banana-republic either that will cave in to anyone...

Comment by Chandra

Mon, 14 Apr 2008 23:42:50 EDT

CS As much as i agree with your assessment i think it is none of anybody's business to tell us how we have to manage our society. From a strategic perspective this is not a wise idea at all. You give these guys a palm and they gobble your hand...

Comment by commonsense

Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:56:27 EDT

BD: Thanks for this great piece. Whether you will change any mindsets or not, is not the issue. You have, as many others, continued the task of exposing this beyond shame crap. As well: (regarding the UN Durban conference) "And while there was quite a hullabaloo about whether 'casteism' is appropriate in this race conference" The Durban conference was NOT simply about race, but clearly about "race and other forms of discrimination". The issue of Dalits was absolutely a relevant issue to raise there. Unfortunately, even our "progressive" scholars such as Dipankar Gupta and Andre Beteille fudged the issue by arguing that "caste is not race" when in fact, nobody ever made that argument in the first place. The point was that treatment of Dalits is discriminatory and shares similiarities with racial discrimination, not that caste and race are identical. I mean, untouchability, people getting their genital hacked off for marrying low-caste people, residential segregation, separate wells for them etc. etc...how can it not be similar, even worse than racial discrimination. Unfortunately scholars like Dipankar Gupta who should no better, began to khhechon baal ki khaaal, and deployed their anthropological knowledge to become "sarkari anthropologists" at the UN inquiry later over this issue. A good thing that he got a dressing down and was ridiculed by the UN commissioner who was in-charge of the proceedings. A lot of it had to do with the old syndrome of "let's not wash our dirty laundry in the global arena", a variation of the "what will the foreigners think of us??" syndrome... It is beyond shameful what the Dalits have gone thru and continue to go thru...beyond belief, but real as you and me... Going off on a tangent here: bottom line, thanks for this piece and for drawing attention to the organization that is spearheadin it.

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Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:19:32 EDT

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Comment by Arnie

Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:05:31 EST

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Comment by Joe

Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:29:34 EST

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Comment by Carefreechandra

Sun, 31 Dec 2006 11:46:21 EST

Million thanks for taking the initiative. Its not only correct thing to do but necessary step to make ammends and necessary sacrifices to heal. I had always felt that caste-ism is painful to majority of the people and early on I have been siding with dalits and being a protector, advocate and a mentor. Arya Samajis have a tradition to not to use caste-based last names and I think, this approach will help the Indian society as a whole. It is time that we all own up and be the source of healing and stop caste based prejudices and discriminations.

Comment by Sumanth

Wed, 27 Dec 2006 00:06:25 EST

Should not we also apologize to "Kshatriyas" who have the only "job" (according to their caste) to defend the state in war? Why the hell a society force people of only one particular caste to get miamed and get killed in war (when people of other castes including lower castes are exempted from this)? By the way, have you heard of "Car Castism" in urban India? It is practiced by urban Indians (especially women) who divide themselves (into an hierarchy) based on what car they have. It is in our blood to divide ourselves into hierarchies and dream of serving a "Mai Baap" (upper caste rich, influencing fool). If we do not get a "Mai Baap" in India, we import one from Italy. Its better we cleanse ourselves daily (of castism) than apologizing to escape from the grim reality.

Comment by temporal

Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:06:27 EST

beady: for your sake i hope you are right! discrimination of this variety is so well ingrained in our psyche that a total cleansing might take centuries not decades but i still admire your gesture... a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step...

Comment by bd

Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:01:59 EST

Atlantean: Thank you for your comments, and no, it will make a difference if we wish it to be, my friend. Call the panda's stupid for judging people by their birth, spread the word and it will be worthwhile. Every little helps! :)

Comment by bd

Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:53:10 EST

T, its a small step, mate. I cannot do anything for others, but what I can do, I do. I apologise, I write, I protest at every reported atrocity, I cajole, motivate, threaten, blackmail, help, others to remove this. But an apology is a must, the sense of personal responsibility is important. And I disagree that nothing will happen, it will happen. Even if 1 additional person changes their mind, mate, that's one little stone removed from the mountain :), small steps, mate, small steps. Raja Ram Mohon Roy is credited with the stopping of sati, he worked for 40 years, and in all that time, he is credited with stopping NONE of the sati's. Not that I am comparing myself with him, but social changes like this take time. Take a look at the sastra.org site, quite creditable, what those chaps are doing. cheers bd

Comment by Atlantean

Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:05:29 EST

A very good article Dr. Dasgupta. I'm glad you brought this up. I join you, as a Hindu, in apologising for all the crimes we have committed not only to the untouchables but also women for over two millenia. I am aware that my apology will not make any difference to all those who suffered and are suffering from casteism and gender-bias in India but I choose to express anyway.

Comment by temporal

Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:42:24 EST

beady: a noble gesture from you...but it has to be meaningfully translated to alter the ground realities...am afraid that is where good intentions run into the Cultural Everest