Pakistan: a Rapist's Paradise, Sanctioned by Allah?

They need some inspiration from the Indian DV act...to some extent it shall curb it even though very remotely!!

When we went nuclear, so did they. How about now??

Event in India, its not all that easy to bring rapist to justice. I suggest this relevant post :

http://tamilpunkster.blogspot.com/2006/11/what-is-essential-is-invisible-to-eye.html

Maybe they just want to continue raping their women and are horrified to know that it might become slightly difficult for them with the new bill.

It isnt surprising.

Check out the rape statistics: Delhi is known as the RAPE CAPITAL OF THE WORLD. http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/10126.asp.

Amazing how shamefully people point fingers without looking at their own house first.

Anyways, Hudood law was undoubtedly a shameful law, which thankfully has been corrected now. Amendment Bill has been passed by the lower house of the parliament as well as by the upper house. It now awaits president signature before it becomes part of the constitution (just for the information of the writer :)).

Coming to Hudood law, Mullahs had confused "adultery" with "rape" while enforcing this law. For adultery, there are four witnesses required and not for rape.

Rape is a horrendous crime which exists in every society. western socities, no matter how liberal and law abiding haven't been able to fully control it. it's something that all human societies need to work on.

Rehman:

First, it is Delhi that is known as the rape capital and not Lahore is because in Lahore no woman in her right mind would even REPORT her rape! In Delhi she can! And in Delhi, if her rapist is caught according to the common law of land - he faces DEATH PENALTY.. no less! That it is still tough to prove rape in a place where the laws support women amply shows how odds are stacked against a rape victim even when things are going for her. One can only imagine the plight of a Pakistani woman!

And, who said that the Hudood law had been "set right".. from my information, the number of witnesses have been reduced - the essence of it, though, remains INTACT! You might want to check it! In a normal, sane society - Hudood laws dont need to be "amended" but REPEALED! But how do you do that.. when they were "given by Allah" Himself? Do you even get the significance of such a hypocrisy?

-d.

Desh,

Are we gonna keep playing this old ridiculous tune back again and again..."Hear me out, I hate Islam" and take me in as new member of Islamphopia elite club.

Should not your headline read "A Rapist's Paradise, Sanctioned by Musharaf? That would be more credible, anyway, what Allah (SWT) has got to do with Pakistani's and their laws if they don't apply his in the first place..!

So you don't like Pakistanis.... that is your prerogative and see if I care..but that has hardly anything to do with your wicked statements..! Does it.

Honestly, one thing seriously bugs me beyond believe, some folks out there who are so ignorant about Islam and are blinded by hate willing and going in any length to strip up all sorts of oozing sickness, getting into religious laws they hardly understand and basing their comments on hear say of few words or two and stick it up all Islam..! A perfect faith... but not so perfect followers..! At least some of them..!

Is it you gonna make anyone happy, if I return it in kindness and start a blog about all that is wrong with Hindusim or any religion for that matter ..! it would not make anyone dignified person happy nor will I do that because that would be un-Islamic to begin with...!

So take easy, lets' debate, blog or just talk about anything and everything, so we can learn from each other and not let us just rap each other the wrong way..!

This is the first beginner's lesson to Desh and his or her likes..!

No if you honestly want understand something about Islam and its laws on Rape and rapist...! Check the link out..!

As for the Pakistanis, well there are plenty and I'm sure they will give you an earful..!

Salaam

Why is it that any comment on Islam turns into an India-Pak verbal exchange with "its worse in India" as its main theme?

Desh, perhaps if you looked at rape laws in other Islamic countries for comparison, it may take away some of the grounds for criticism that has been levelled at you? From what I understand, rape laws in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt etc are not much better. But I could well be wrong here and would be happy to be corrected by those who know better.

Apparently the issue IS based in Islamic thought and law that consider a woman's testimony as holding less value than a man's (hence the issue of male witnesses rather than relying on other evidence, including women's testimony). That is what creates the ethical dilemma for non-Muslims who are trying to work towards gender equality.

Abdullah - will be delighted to be corrected on this point if you can prove otherwise. Simply accusing all critics of Islamophobia is not enough.

Animika, just go to link I provide under URL and ask a question to any Scholar, why take it my word for it.

Relatively speaking, how much do you now the laws of Saudi Arabi, Egypt or Afghanistan and are they Islamic or man made..?

At the same time, critising a Muslim for wrong doing is ok with me but going after the tenants of Islam withut understanding them is Islamicphopia pure and simple.

So you see after all, we can agree on somethings..!

Please do let me know if you need more links and I will be more than happy to direct you,

Good luck and all the best,

Abdallah

Took a look at the website Abdullah, and did a few searches as well. Problem is WHO decides if the laws followed by Saudi, Pakistan, Taliban etc are NOT Islamic when they have been promulgates SPECIFICALLY as Islamic laws?

You say divine vs manmade. As far as I can see, ALL laws are man made and there is NO proof beyond faith that there is ANY divine intervention in setting up of Biblical, or Islamic or Manu-ist laws. So to turn around and protest that unjusts laws in self-proclaimed Islamic countries are not really Islamic is disingenous. Especially when those laws are DEFENDED by majority of the Muslim leaders.

Finally, this from the Associated Press on Saudi justice system: "Justice in Saudi Arabia is administered by a system of religious courts according to the kingdom's strict interpretation of Islamic Sharia law. Judges appointed by the king on the recommendation of the Supreme Judicial Council have complete discretion to set sentences, except in cases where Sharia outlines a punishment, such as capital crimes.

That means no two judges would likely hand down the same verdict for similar crimes. A rapist, for instance, could receive anywhere from a light or no sentence to death, depending on the judge."

The rest of the article is about a woman who was gang raped in Saudi and then sentenced to 90 lashes for being with a man who wasn't her blood relative. The seven accused "recanted" btw on appeal and so could not be counted as the necessary "four male" witnesses. Seems like they will go free after all. The woman can then be stoned to death for adultery.

From my infidel perspective, I don't find the above an act of justice but doubtless there is a proper Islamic explanation. Please explain how and why?

My dear infidel friend, without giving you a headache no single Muslim or so called Islamic countries applies 30% of the Islamic jurisprudence or justice system..!! So don't waste your time and try futile searches..!

Let me explain something in very simple terms, under Islamic law of justice, a rapist gets gas the gas chamber, well not exactly the gas but he put to death if I say it in more barbaric way, I do anti-capital punishment folks will be jumping on my throat.

Now in terms of the witness, there are different schools of thought but that was 1400 yrs ago, today with advancement of forensic evidence and NDA, it's quite easy to get the culprit and dispatch him to hell where he belongs..!

Islam is based on reason so there is not illogic in using scientific aide to assist the judge in any court.

What you call the Islamic courts in Saudi Arabia, I leave that to the Saudi's so ask them how Islamic these courts are and believe me I would not put any thing past them in terms of what you said.

So you asked who decides it..? it's simple who decides it, the justice and in it's absence then there ain't much you can do, is there. To proof my point look at the American courts and how many men (Blackmen) has been executed over the years for crimes they did not commit..!

So imagine when you have a corrupt system and corrupt judges..what would be the results..!

In a nutshell, what is happening in Saudi Arabia or else where hardly has nothing to do with Islamic justice system. Believe me, it's lot more harder then just calling Islamic courts when none are Islamic.

Get my point.

Abdallah

Abdallah:

Thanks for your comments. The reason I had that headline and not the one you suggested was because Hudood is NOT suggested by Musharraf... but the BOUNDARIES given by ALLAH! The Pakistani law is based on THOSE HUDOODS (and the interpretations).

As far as who is following the Islamic laws and who aint.. I am just sick and tired of commenters on internet saying who is Muslim and who is not.. Saudis suggest Pakistanis aint Islamic.. .Pakistanis says Iranis have no idea of Islam... Egyptians say Lebanese dont know it.. Moderates say Jehadis are not Muslims... Jehadis dont even waste their time with the debate.. they just shoot the heck out of the moderates anyways.. Shias say Sunnis aren't Muslims and vice versa...

.... meanwhile infidels keep getting killed and women get raped.. while they keep wondering that the Shariah that was used to subjugate them was Islamic or not .. and based on WHOSE VERSION!

So, in short, I dont care two hoots as to what is Islamic and what is not.. that these laws are Islamic laws and based on Shariah in these Islamic countries is enough. If you have to argue, dear Abdallah, please pack a few Qurans and take the next flight to Islamabad.. and argue your version with the Supreme COurt judges and the legislative branch of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

-d.

Desh,

here is the link, the author of this article did a "wonderful" job in researching the whole matter and you as an "intelligent" reader believed what it said. here is the link to remove your blissful ignorance. Seriously, learn to read and research, it will help.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6178214.stm

And what a lame excuse, just because few cases get reported, it doesn't take away Delhi's "honor" of being the "rape capital". You have all the "honors" rape/child sex/AIDS capitals.

Desh,

Thanks for the response, first, let's take care of couple of issues,

1- None has the right to claim a superiority of being a Muslim by his own accord, the basic tenants of Islam teaches us that the most pious or righteous is a true believer so I can not accept what you said face value and it's over simplification.

2- Islam is not some dude sitting a corner watching what every one is doing or about to do, it's doctrine and it really depends how and when its followers implement.

Yes, you are right Huddood which is plural for Hadd (or limit or boundary) is part of basic tenants of Islamic Jurisprudence system but not on to themselves the whole justice, I'm not a scholar but Huddood usually deals with capital cases or extreme offenses or crimes such as rape, etc.

3- No Muslim government in the Islamic world today practices or enforces the right code of huddood and there are so many of them not only the ones deals with rape, etc.

So you see, failure of these states doing the right thing and implement the huddood laws is not any failure of Islam but a failure of these states.

So you see the two are separate issues.

Now in all honesty, what is that you don't like Huddood, say example, a rapist get's the death plenty, a murderer gets the guillotine or end of rope or firing squad.
If you tell me what is that you have against god law perhaps I will try to explain to you what it's intended for.

Now, I let me point out of something, everyone who says his "Shahada' i.e. the witness of submission of "One God and Prophet Muhammad" (PBUH) as his messenger on own his or her free will is a Muslim regardless of what, where or who is, black or white yellow or green. That is universal.

Never-the-less, there are good Muslims and there are bad ones just like in any other religion, so nothing exclusive about Islam when it comes to this.

However, please let me correct you for the sake of exchange of ideas and views, if any one claims to be a Muslim and he in turn tells you that those "others" are not Muslims, then he is not a Muslim, why because as Muslim I can't and will not call anyone who I know for a fact said his Shahadah he is not a Muslim, this is great sin against God.

Finally, I do realize that you don't care much about knowing about who Muslim or what is Islam, hence, but sadly, it was your post that was like opening a can of warms and one should never open one unless he or she is prepared to go on fishing..!

If Pakistanis or Saudis or anyone for that matter do not stick to the laws of Islam, it's there problem, but you saying paradise of rapist by the sanction of Allah, is totally unacceptable, why simply that is not true and you know it.

As for rape, infidels getting killed, well, again it has nothing to do with Islam so take it easy if you have problems with Pakistanis because I now you guys don't like each other then so be it..!

Just keep me out of it.

A word of wisdom, Reham, please vulgarity is not going to win you the argument, believe in the decency in all of us and we can disagree all we want but no body has the right to call names or be disrespectful towards other..!

The rest of the story..!

Abdallah

P.S. I will be going to Islamabad shortly but I heard it's bit cold right know.. Is that so, I was in Bombay (sorry Mumbai) few weeks back and it was raining cats and dogs..!

Note to Rehman, I stand corected your name is Rahman or AbulRahaman and sincerely aplogize for reffering to you above as Reham, just type error.

Thanks

Abdallah

Rehman

How can one confuse adultery with rape and moresoever require 4 witnesses? what a dumb justification by you and the mullahs who for sure had no sense while making this law. Utter nonsense!!
Okay maybe delhi has the highest rape cases but there is no confusion about it as our sensible lawmakers haven't drafted any stupid laws with confusion. The fact that delhi has the highest goes on to show that women COME FORWARD and report it fearlessly.

This article was about the stupid laws and not the highest cases.

Let me put forward another informative article to your attention;:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Model_nikahnama_Shia_women_gain_right_to_divorce_/articleshow/585779.cms

Model nikahnama: Shia women gain right to divorce

"MUMBAI: In a major move aimed at protecting women, the All India Shia Personal Law Board on Sunday unanimously approved a model nikahnama (marriage contract) that gives them the same rights as men for divorce.

"Our model nikahnama , which has been approved by the highest Shia cleric of Iraq, Ayatullah Sistani, and constitutional experts, came into force today," Board president Maulana Mirza Mohammad Athar said.

"In this marriage contract, both bride and groom can put their conditions at the time of the wedding. The bride will have the right to demand divorce which she can use if needed," Athar said.

The nikahnama was approved at the Board's second general body meeting here that was attended by a large number of clerics and leaders from across the country.

Athar, however, said the Board could only publicise the nikahnama and it would be up to Shia Muslims to follow it. "It will not be obligatory," he said, adding it would be implemented with the consent of both parties to a marriage.

Terming it a "visionary and a progressive" move, Board secretary Zaheer Abbas Rizvi said the wife would have the right to seek divorce if she is cheated and barred from her rights to education and improving her life. Women can use the nikahnama against men who get married by providing false and misleading information.

They can also seek divorce if the groom disappears for two years, if he does not inquire about the wife for months together, does not fulfil her essential needs, or uses physical force or forces her to have sexual relations with other men.

The wife, however, cannot indulge in "wasteful expenditure" that lands her husband in debt, and must approach arbitrators mentioned in the document for seeking divorce and not directly approach a court.

In view of instances of dowry-related crimes, the nikahnama makes it clear that the groom cannot ask for any dowry, either in cash or kind. "The nikahnama will protect the rights of women and help save them from exploitation and injustice," Athar said.

Rizvi said the document incorporated certain provisions that were in keeping with the "changing society and economic atmosphere". "Gender bias cannot exist in modern times," he said.

He added the nikahnama is a "wonderful" document that can be adopted by people of different sects of Islam as well as other religions. The Board also discussed different issues and demanded a national policy for the development of Shias, Athar said.

Its other demands include creation of a separate Shia Waqf board and adequate representation for the sect in Parliament and state assemblies and the Haj committee."

anamika #7:

i concur with some of what you said

desh's blatant hatred clouds his judgment

as i wrote elsewhere - in the first place this post is outdated ... also poorly put together...ignoring ground reality and facts and splashing the writer's own prejudices without abandon ...

Abdallah:

Thanks for your post. I appreciate your thoughts although I do not agree with you on them. As I said the reason why I said Pakistan is the Paradise of Rapists "sanctioned by Allah" is because Hudood laws made it virtually impossible to save women against rape.. and these Hudood laws are Allah's sanction. I think my reasoning is pretty clear.

Temporal: You are too full of value judgments so it is difficult to even discuss anything with you or take you seriously. As for the dated-ness of my post.. it discusses the Senate discussion in Pakistan as of last week. So thats that.

You may read the post again and see if its not factual and point that out.

It is in poor taste that the editors of desicritics now try to DICTATE what one must write and not write based on their own prejudices and religious and social leanings and THEN they go out and blaming others of bad taste!

If you cannot remain OBJECTIVE and dispassionate, t, then please stop this ACTIVIST Editorial work!

And, I stand by each word I am writing here!!

Desh

Desh:

why have you not responded to anamika but jump quickly at my post?

bigotry goes hand in glove with lack of knowledge

knowledge inculcates humility - something in short supply here

you appear so full of hot air and preconceived biases

Hudood laws dont need to be "amended" but REPEALED! But how do you do that.. when they were "given by Allah" Himself? Do you even get the significance of such a hypocrisy?

and this gem:

I dont care two hoots as to what is Islamic and what is not.. that these laws are Islamic laws and based on Shariah in these Islamic countries is enough.

yes, indeed - obviously you care enough to spread hatred:)

read the explanation for what is hudood laws in my article here on Desicritics

briefly, the ones introduced by zina ul haq are man-made not God-made laws and therefore they can be repealed or amended - if the government has a will

which brings us to politics not religion however much you may wish to twist

Now I am worried temporal - where has Desh responded to anything I have written? Did I miss something? ;-)

Also simply declaring that Islam is not anti-women, or not this or not that is obviously no longer enough when various self-professed Islamist regimes are using the words, teachings and principles of the religion to write and implement laws.

Zia's misogynist rape laws are backed by the Islamic leaders, or so it appears from the reports in mainstream media as well as Islamic websites. Its hard to delink these laws from Islam when so many prominent maulvis are happy to explain in great details just how and why they are Islamic.

My question is: if political Islam is being used to justify the laws, then it becomes a RELIGIOUS issue., doesn't it? If Huddood laws are being used to make reporting and convicting rape difficult or impossible, then surely it is more than a purely political matter?

Temporal:

Your tirade nothwithstanding about my knowledge or lack of it... I think Anamika has put it the best.

I dont think you get the "gem" that you refer to! What I say is pretty simple - it DOES NOT matter what YOU (or Abdallah) thinks of what is Islam or what is not.. the truth is that Islamic religious leaders INSIST that it is and THEY are the ones who matter when it comes to practical reality! And I think I made it clear in the very first line of my post itself...

"There is something terribly wrong with the basic structure of Islam as it relates to the women and minorities in general in the practical sense."

Abdallah had remarked in one of his comment:

"Is it you gonna make anyone happy, if I return it in kindness and start a blog about all that is wrong with Hindusim or any religion for that matter"

My reply to him is - BY ALL MEANS! There was a time when the Priests and Brahmins used to explain the Sati practice as something that was sanctioned in the Vedas! If the reformers in those days had the same attitude as Temporal or others on this post, believe me nothing would have changed!

In my personal view, if the Vedas do sanction anything that takes away the personal dignity and perpetuate evil, then it behoves each one of us to either yank out those pieces... or better still burn the entire stuff if it makes sense!

Scriptures DO NOT define human beings.. Human Beings define the scriptures!

So, temporal if pointing out the negatives in any practices is what you call HATRED then so be it..but your tirade is more a comment on your mental makeup as opposed to your targets!

Cheers,
-d.

Desh please don't confuse politics with real life. We both know how leaders misuse their power to gain temporary political support. This hudood law is a good example of such misuse. Most of these laws were brought on by a dictator and not by a vote of a parliment so there was no general concensus. Zia's main agenda at that time was to distract people from the real issues facing the country (marshal law and economic problems). He used the name of Islam as a diversion to divide the people of Pakistan and get support of the radicale aswell as the uneducated masses. I suggest you read this article (if only the Conclusion section): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zia-ul-Haq%27s_Islamization

That said, Islam stresses on equal rights of women. Rape is one of the worst offences in the eyes of the Islam. Here are a few quotes from the following site: http://www.submission.org/women/rape.html

"In addition to condemnation of the sexual crime involved in rape as we can see above, God strongly condemns the oppression element of rape in the strongest possible language. God, in the Quran, describes oppression as worse than murder. This puts rape among the worst crimes committed by a human being in the sight of God."

"[24:33] ........You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful."

"...keeping in mind that it is one of the worst crimes and therefore expected to be given the worst punishment permitted under the civil law allowed in every community. "

haseeb:

Thanks for your comments. My reading of the problem with the Islamic societies is that the reason why dictators like Zia (and indeed all the barbarians from Ghasnavi to Aurangzeb to osama) have used Islam to kill, maim and rape at will is because Islam is really a politico-religious in nature. Mohammad, himself, was a political leader rolled into religious leader. Most of his actions were political in nature.

Therein lies the problem.. but then it is doubtful that anyone will see it.. so it is useless to discuss this.

The verse that you cited to me would mean something else. It seems to be saying that IF - a woman who wants to remain chaste (no talk of a lady who would want sex outside or before a marriage - is she supposed to be fair meat?).. she should not be forced... and that if she is raped .. SHE will be forgiven?? Hello!!?? she is the VICTIM!!

Please, others, read this again and let me know if I am missing something? And meanwhile Haseeb either brush this verse up or find a better one..

Cheers,
Desh

[Quote]Scriptures DO NOT define human beings.. Human Beings define the scriptures![Unquote]

Well said Desh.

Temporal, Animak, Haseeb, guys got it..I do appreciate that..!

I equally appreciate Desh and Durgesh's point of view but disagree with them to some extent...

1- I will not go on "spill-out" on Hindu religion, as I hardly know much about and if I have said anything off-putting about it then least, I should have enough knowledge and personal exposure to deal with whatever I have said,.
Most importantly, anything negative "ghastly " I say would definitely hurt one my closest friends who happens to be a devout Hindu believer!
And above all, as Muslim, I it's a sin "great" one to bad mouth other's believes or what have you..!

So that point settled.

Let me go back to my friends, Desh and Durgesh, to simplify it, the illness is not with Islamic Huddood laws but system of governments and enacted laws by these governments...! It's pure and that simple.

Desh, if you need more elaborative and in-depth understanding of Huddood laws please just click on the link, you have the option of actually having all your questions answered by a respected and very knowledgeable scholar who is very much renowned through the world.

As for the last statement made by Durgesh "Scriptures DO NOT define human beings... Human beings define the Scriptures.."! This may be valid in other religions but in most definitely not in Islam..!Actually it's quite the contrary of what Durgesh quoted..

Simple example, if the Quran does not define who, what, why and the basic value system of a Muslim person.... then you will end up having guys like Ben Laden and those politicians mentioned by Haseeb and Desh coined them "Islamic Political Leaders"...!

Once the scripture is defined with human values, reasoning and logic then you will have a book that has no roots of holistic define status, that lacks the superiority of been revealed and scared.
In other words, I define what is or not acceptable in the scripture..! And I mean by definition, stating its core tenants and covenants, in net result the altercations of it.

However, human do interpret the scriptures, mostly again try to amend tenants to suit their own core socio-cultural and custom value system.

Sadly, it is just like we do in most of the Islamic world today.

I hope, I have not bore you beyond dead and taken up your time, you forgive you hear or else..!

Salaam/Peace to you all..

Abdallah

thinking of migrating to Pakistan now

"Indian savages"? Haven't we gone past such normative, Orientalist, racist language? Implicit in that statement is that the Greeks were "civilized." I think you are the one telling yourself lies now....

Also, Alexander was ONE of the many invaders from the West and North West to arrive in the subcontinent so the western "federal" (seemant ganrajya) were meant to protect the northern Magadha empire, and were logically very well armed.

Finally, I don't think Desh has at any point stated that "Muslims invented violence." It would be granting a 1400 year old philosophy far too much credit for an aspect of humanity that has existed since the inception of the species.