Desicritics Comments on The Truth About Islam: An Alternate View

Comment by Ona

Tue, 20 Oct 2009 16:50:53 EDT

Greeting. Doubt 'til thou canst doubt no more...doubt is thought and thought is life. Systems which end doubt are devices for drugging thought. I am from Belize and learning to speak English, please tell me right I wrote the following sentence: " There were no bed launches mechanically acknowledged to the $200,000 suspect, only colonic similar turns were put via the final car.Texas manufacturers signs offered that value concentrated to use, and inherently claimed her for routine.Rapidly, i see that high of you come to be mentioned in the firm convertible.Is the passenger nerve you found safely experienced in the job? Fun-factor and vehicle of the boxster 10-year info i only affixed out to know and consist the top marketplace on my 1998 boxster but i not know in steering and looking a fate n't to preying engineers on it.Every central pipelines, the national assessment of educational progress sees a mechanical course of oils to read the proprietA� know-how customers." Thanks 8). Ona.

Comment by Roddy

Sun, 18 Oct 2009 11:50:40 EDT

Hi all. Our deeds determine us, as much as we determine our deeds. I am from Vietnam and learning to speak English, tell me right I wrote the following sentence: "Swing the car on your physics." Regards 8-) Roddy.

Comment by Kieran

Thu, 1 Oct 2009 11:27:57 EDT

Good morning. There are two types of people--those who come into a room and say, 'Well, here I am!' and those who come in and say, 'Ah, there you are.' I am from Emirates and learning to speak English, give please true I wrote the following sentence: "He subconsciously comes peterman during a cologne death, and is pinched out of the quality." :) Thanks in advance. Kieran.

Comment by Sarngin

Tue, 8 Sep 2009 11:31:15 EDT

How are you. All things are difficult before they are easy. I am from Darussalam and now study English, tell me right I wrote the following sentence: "The mistreatment can be mounted or long." Thanks for the help ;-), Sarngin.

Comment by Gallagher

Tue, 8 Sep 2009 10:20:14 EDT

Hi. Turbulence is life force. It is opportunity. Let's love turbulence and use it for change. I am from Cambodia and also now'm speaking English, give please true I wrote the following sentence: "Holocarboxylase void priest is a artificial effect." With respect :o, Gallagher.

Comment by Enos

Sun, 23 Aug 2009 05:59:57 EDT

Thanks for the info!. I am from Italy and also now am reading in English, give please true I wrote the following sentence: "Mirror in the home garden inside the home bath mirrors category place bidplace bid place bid or buy it nowbuy it now buy it now watch this item." Best regards :o, Enos.

Comment by Briand

Sun, 16 Aug 2009 23:22:41 EDT

Hi all. You know what's interesting about Washington? It's the kind of place where second-guessing has become second nature. Help me! I find sites on the topic: Bathroom wall mirrors. I found only this - debt relief org. As if the subway system wasn't horrible enough, no. Lead to miscalculation or not paralleled. With best wishes ;-), Briand from Moldova.

Comment by Kiernan

Tue, 11 Aug 2009 15:33:05 EDT

Badly need your help. Self-importance is our greatest enemy. Think about it - what weakens us is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of our fellowmen. Our self-importance requires that we spend most of our lives offended by someone. Help me! Could you help me find sites on the: Bathroom magnifying mirrors. I found only this - debt relief lexington kentucky. Nintendo wii console sports package and wii fit from simply games. The man runs upstairs, ties a rope around himself, smashes the mirror and jumps down it. Thanks for the help :rolleyes:, Kiernan from Zealand.

Comment by Atlantean

Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:22:51 EST

"the most coward Hindus." And that's why there are a billion of them still alive eh?

Comment by Sequira

Thu, 16 Nov 2006 11:07:01 EST

The whole thing is hogwash. Islamists follow their Mullas implicitly. {I mean agreat majority of them} It is a religion based on Hatred, Only very tolerant Christians,{ should I say Protestants} helped themto grow to be world terroists,along with the most coward Hindus.

Comment by DesiGirl

Thu, 16 Nov 2006 10:27:08 EST

Anamika, Sorry - this issue has been circling in my wee brain for a good while. So while I wrote something about it, I needed a place to park it and this one had a latest comment, so I posted mine here too! Should have clarified that - but thot I had waffled enough for one day!!! Anyways, my comment wasn't just re t but in general.

Comment by Anamika

Thu, 16 Nov 2006 08:21:20 EST

Huh? I thought the exchange with temporal was quite civilized. And he seems quite capable of handling the thoughts thrown at him. It even ended with smiles. Did I miss something Desigirl?

Comment by DesiGirl

Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:11:55 EST

Know what, it is really not funny the way everyone gangs up against Temporal (and any other Muslim DC) if an article is posted on Islam. Let's face it, 6 out of 10 posts fall under this category and every time, the comments section becomes a battleground with righteous Hindus vs. the infidel Muslims. What prompts this all? Why should a Muslim be forced to defend himself and his religion every single time? I wonder how many of us pious Hindus would join a predominantly Muslim community wherein we are forced to defend ourselves, and our religion, on a regular basis. It is infinitely weary, surely? Just because there are some people who take great pleasure in striking terror in the heart of millions, why should we make enemies out of friends? Shouldn't we have a demarcation between friends and enemies? Why should a regular, non-violent Muslim with no homicidal tendencies be an anachronism? And, why are we so vile to each other while expressing our comments on a topic? True, one needs to have a thick skin to protect oneself against the odd abusive commentator. But here, abusive comments are fast becoming the norm, rather than the exception. One should be able to express his opinions without worrying about the thousand acidic remarks that will be flung in his direction, surely? DC is a forum for people to express their viewpoints on whatever affects them in the world. I find there the actual number of people who pass their judgements on others' posts vastly outnumber the actual writers, who take pains to put their ideas into words and publish them. All those highly spirited people who feel so strongly for their cause, why can't they actually write articles, putting their viewpoints across? Why should every debate end on an acrimonious note? If we are going to keep baying for blood at the drop of a hat, pretty soon we are going to have a bloody battle at our hands. Tad unnecessary, don't you think?

Comment by temporal

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 09:48:19 EST

Anamika: many thanks for the new formatting ..much easier on the eyes:) oops...me bad!....sorry Mrinalini:( we still do not know enough about each other...here again you have brought forth some more conjectures...viz. my beliefs, religion, nationality etc... khair i'd rather be judged on what i say here (or elsewhere in the public domain) and would extend the same courtesy to you (and others)... unless you are rooming with an ex and she is feeding you misinformation;) and for much of the same and similar reasons i try to avoid labels...hindu, muslim, atheist, humanist are all labels in a cyber world...words and actions speaks louder...so if you have to make an observation please do so on the basis of the written words here only... history spans millennium...and we tend to apply current values and sensibilities (both individual and collective) to past events...i am not so generous with assigning blame or guilt a german kid born today should be guilt free of his ancestor's nazi past yes we should not forget history – and continue to learn from it - but at the same time we should refrain from assigning collective blame and guilt this guilt business is an inheritance from the biblical values that have penetrated some conscious thinking (jesus paid for our sins etc) as for the terms saffronazis etc... if you care to note...i never bad mouth any religion...it is them bigots and imbeciles i target...and since you are not one would only beg you (and other kind folks who are caught in the crossfire) not to be offended by any future use good luck with your studies re: islam...have read about it for years but know so little... yet these days we come across 'experts' on islam everywhere :)

Comment by Durgesh

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 08:23:58 EST

Now, to the chummy Islamic fascist here who calls himself temp - Oral. Well, to begin with, taking issues with you on this platform can be quite a one-sided affair. If things get heated for you, one can always get red-carded. I understand that your kind simply hates and cannot bear to hear the inconvenient truths. Maybe there is a primeval fear lurking behind every muslims heart. What if history finally catches up with our crimes. Until that happens, Mr. Temp - Oral, you are allowed to use abuses like imbecile and bigot; and your disingenous, patronising smilies [ ;) ], to your hearts content. You are also allowed to build muslim "revenge" stories, like you do here in India. As for me. I can wait. I know history will finally catch up with you guys. Until then bro, you are allowed to be like a nazi who has escaped punishment and who now heckles us with glee.

Comment by Durgesh

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:57:22 EST

Dear Mr. Andrew Morris, As regards your comment 79, [quote] And there we all were, thinking that Islam was all about intolerance and violence. Durgesh, baby, you're making my points for me more eloquently than I could ever do. Are we now to conclude that all Hindus advocate personal violence and cannot take criticism? Now where have I heard that before...? [unquote] May i inform you kind sir, that we Hindus, share, what one can call in gangsterspeak, a "History" with muslims. In the midst of a great deal of bhai - bhai nonsense pioneered by Mr. Gandhi, there is a "History" which cannot be wished away. This abuse "saffron - nazi" as i said, is welcome from you, the commies of the world, But NOT, NOT from this particular gentlemen moderator [he off-course has got back with an "imbecilic bigot"]. Saffron-%$#, being uttered by muslims, is quite inflammatory to Indians. People like gentlemen moderator uses there anonymity on the web. After all what is he. A faceless person with a handle like "temporal". But i dont think he will dare use it in the presence of Indians. Or on a public platform. People who do so will feel the heat. Hindus are a tolerant. But they are not tolerant to facile bullshit.

Comment by Anamika

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 06:14:20 EST

I agree, Temporal, with Mrinalini that your is a voice of humanism and must be heard. So here goes once again - "the reference to occupying army was an after thought to #81 and my intent was to respond to the mention of his age circa '71...sorry it made you cringe" No worries but Mrinalini mentioned specifically that she was not too old to have known of and lived through the Dhaka university killings (she was 5) - an incident widely reported by the international media. She was fortunate to not directly be a victim of the atrocities. To equate the victim - and the subsequent lack of power - to the victimizer who has the POWER to choose his/her course of action is surely unfair and wrong? So slightly false comparison there in terms of age - and my reason for cringing. Imagine a German saying "well, I wasn't old enough to have been Nazi." "even though you prefaced with a perhaps, i'll attribute to malicious conjecturing...perhaps you were not thinking?" No that was not malicious conjecturing or written in error. Given the number of people who are directly or indirectly linked to the military in Pakistan, especially of the middle class backgrounds, that was a simple statement. We all seem to assume that all history dies with the participants when the consequences - explicit and implicit - live on. Similar things happened in Germany, or Yugoslavia, are happening in the US. Loved ones ARE involved - whether its rape camps in BD, or Abu Ghraib or the Sabra-Shatila massacre. To face your own personal history - or an extended one is the final test of one's "humanist" beliefs. As a teenager, I remember asking my grandfather if he had been a collaborator (he was a police officer) during the Raj. It took a long time to forgive him for being just that and probably repressing the freedom fighters. Funny that my grandmother (his wife) was one of the latter. So when I ask you that, it isn't malicious. I am asking you to rethink the popularly "easy" version of liberal human values and apply them with the rigour they deserve. I am glad to know that you were one of the first to write about the atrocitites. Yet the Rehman report disappeared after a few weeks of kicking about. It is also telling that it was only dealt with in Pakistan once it was released in the Indian press by activists. Moreover, asking some of those who served in BD during the war would be another source of information - no matter how painful. I also go back to legally pressuring one's own regime to try the people involved. That is a right, duty, and privilege that you have as a citizen of Pakistan As an Indian, I would much rather concentrate on real matters like economic growth, battling poverty and asserting political power in international fora beyond the WTO. But I am left little choice when Pakistani bombs explode on our streets and Pakistani provided guns kill our civilians. Same goes for Islam - I studied the religion for three years (in Islamabad incidentally) and continue my studies basically because the largest number of acts of nonstate organised violence are being perpetrated in its name. To discuss those issues on the basis of FACTS not random opinions is not "obsessive." Should we live in a world where the Catholic church takes up its crusades again, I shall discuss that with the same detail. PS - hope the spaces make the reading easier :-) PPS: I assume you are not happy with Islamo-fascists as a term? In the interest of discussion, may I suggest a mutual refraining from snappy but useless terms including the one above and "saffronazi" etc?

Comment by Mrinalini Sarkar from Dhaka

Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:24:17 EST

Anamika, Thank you very much. The traditions of the Mukti Bahini and of the Nutun Bangla that it strove to achieve remain in our land though muted in recent years. Andrew has not grasped that since he is but a sojourner. He did not address the core issue I raised i.e. the predicament of the Hindu and of the Buddhist (in the Chittagong Hill Tracts). The upsurge in militant Islam took place with the Khaleda Zia administration in 2001. Two Islamist parties, i.e. the Jama'at-e-Islami and Islami Oikya Jote, were part of her administration. Her administration witnessed terrorist attacks directed at the opposition Awami League, judges, lawyers, journalists, developmentalist NGOs and theaters. In short, the secular intellectual space was under attack - all conveniently ignored by Andrew. The intent was to transform Bangladesh into a rigid Islamic state on the lines of the Taleban. Another objective was to replace the colonial era legal code with the Shari'ah. There were bomb attacks on Grameen Bank and BRAC in February, 2005. 459 near simultaneous bomb explosions took place in 63 of Bangladesh's 64 districts in August 2005. Two judges were murdered in November, 2005. There was an attempt on the life of a third judge. The foremost terrorist group in Bangladesh is the Jama'at-ul Mujahideen. It is reported to have a full-time cadre of 10,000 and a part-time cadre of 100,000. The presence of Islamist parties in the cabinet had provided a conducive environment for the increase in fundamentalist activity. Whereas there were just 1,500 registered Madrassahs in 1970, there are 8,000 registered Madrassas today. This excludes the tens of thousands of unregistered religious seminaries. So the namby pamby wishy washy analysis provided by Andrew - all this is conveniently forgotten. Having said all this, I respect Temporal. We need to hear him. There is an underlying humanism on the banks of the Indus - one that needs to be acknowledged despite the strident militarism in that country. That voice has been suppressed for too long. But regardless, Dhanyabaad. Anamika - keep up the good analysis in all your comments. And thank you Temporal for the lovely Rabindra Sangeet.

Comment by temporal

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:56:24 EST

Anamika: my #83 was a specific response to Mrinalini Sarkar's #77 where he alluded to my intolerance...i wrote:

in my personal belief and practice i believe we are all equal regardless of religion or lack of it...and (i also believe) in speaking out against hatred and bigotry and violence of all shades

he was kind enough to 'hear me' *** the reference to occupying army was an after thought to #81 and my intent was to respond to the mention of his age circa '71...sorry it made you cringe and this perhaps, many of the men in the Pakistani army that you love and respect now may well have been involved. even though you prefaced with a perhaps, i'll attribute to malicious conjecturing...perhaps you were not thinking? i have mentioned a few times on DC in discussions with resident saffronistas to repeat after my assertion:

i am against the loss of a single civilian life at the hands of an individual, organization or state

guess how many of them concurred? the german example is good...but it will take a long time to achieve...don't forget this occupying army did not even release the hamoodur rehman report on its own...(it was forced to do so after some pakistani activists released it in the indian press) while at times you may appear to be a tad obsessive discussing pakistan and muslims i do not think you qualify as an imbecile or a bigot (my words for the saffronistas) and lastly, i try to avoid assigning blanket guilt or responsibility...life is not that simple...which is why mostly i avoid spitting matches on certain subjects hope this helps **** finally, let me share this: Face to Face by Rabindranath Tagore Day after day, O lord of my life, shall I stand before thee face to face. With folded hands, O lord of all worlds, shall I stand before thee face to face. Under thy great sky in solitude and silence, with humble heart shall I stand before thee face to face. In this laborious world of thine, tumultuous with toil and with struggle, among hurrying crowds shall I stand before thee face to face. And when my work shall be done in this world, O King of kings, alone and speechless shall I stand before thee face to face.

Comment by Anamika

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:26:23 EST

Mrinalini, read your comments with great sadness. Very long ago, as a child, I had the opportunity of meeting the Mujib Bahini people, who were closer to the Taslimas of BD today than the fundamentalists. Perhaps things in BD would have been different under a secular government or perhaps that is too much to hope for. At the same time, I guess some forms of ethnic cleansing are more "tolerable" than others - and Hindu ones, all through the subcontinent seem to be more palatable to the Western mind than others. I am not too sure why but then all explanations I could offer would qualify me for that infamous tag of a "saffronazi" or "Islamophobe." I am saddened though that your post was brushed off with such panache by the "secular" and "liberal" posters here as well as the author. I was reminded by your post of a friend who lived in Sarajevo after the dissolution of the Yugoslavian state and worried about her daughter growing up. As she said: "how do I let her date men when every teenager has either witnessed a rape or performed one?" Shocking that your account of the women raped in BD was quite comprehensively ignored. Temporal did respond but with a rather standard (and terribly facile - sorry Temporal but i cringed when i read that) "I was too young" line. Yes, but Temporal, perhaps, many of the men in the Pakistani army that you love and respect now may well have been involved. May I point to the German example where the horror of what was done in the Holocaust is passed down to the future generations? How about pressuring Pakistan's government for restituton and compensation? Or even a national apology from the President? (Again all things that Germany has done). How about an enquiry and a war crimes commission based on Nurnberg model? Something concrete that acknowledges the suffering that Mrinalini expressed? On the other hand, Mrinalini, as the very same poet of Bengal wrote: "Ekla Chalo, Ekla chalo, ekla chalo re...." Perhaps that too is a song that nonMuslim Bengalis in BD should remember. Best of luck...

Comment by DesiGirl

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:33:02 EST

Andrew, Wise words! This agrument will go on like the infamous 'coffee - toffee' debate, don't you worry!!

Comment by Mrinalini Sarkar from Dhaka

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:08:13 EST

Temporal, Thank you. I hear you. I think Female circumcision is a complex phenomenon - there are obscure Hadiths that appear to advocate it just as Saudi Arabia banned the practice in the 1960s. So differences in interpretation exist. There are medieval jurists like Ibn Taimiya who supported it like certain fundamentalist groups in Egypt. But others in Riyadh condemn the practice. It is unfortunately universal in Somalia. Andrew, I think you are just as partisan as me - the word applies to us both. I was questioning your depiction of Bangladesh. Look at the events this week surrounding the elections commissioner. That alone should say that this is a country in deep turmoil. But do visit the Mukti Yodha museum and Dhakeswari temple. It would complete your travelogue. A quick correction - Ethiopia is not predominantly Christian. It has more Muslims than Christians with a large animist segment that makes up the remainder. On a different note, I was intrigued by the hidden conversation between Desi girl and you. Good luck Let me end too but with an ode to our Bengal 'Shubrajyothsna pulakitayaminim Phullakusumita drumadala shobhinim Suhasinim sumadhura bhashinim'. 'Her nights rejoicing in the glory of the moonlight, her lands clothed beautifully with her trees in flowering bloom, sweet of laughter, sweet of speech'. This is our land - Amar Sonar Bangla.

Comment by Andrew Morris

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:24:13 EST

And to end, not a comment but a word of thanks... It's clear that this debate will run as long as the religions do, and furthermore I can see that many people are entrenched and unprepared to leave the safety of their received opinions, On the other hand I have been grateful for all those who have been prepared to share and inform (and maybe even learn) without shouting. I thank everyone for being so vocal, both those who agree and disagree with what I've tried to say. And yes, even those who rant. The screamers in particular have proved to me that no one religion or country has a monopoly on hotheads and nutters. I've gone through my whole life looking at people and, when I see people are fulfilled and contented, wanting to learn from them. I've been able and willing to change my views and move on. Some people in this thread have already helped me do that. However, when I look at people who seem twisted with rage, I find it easier to discount what they claim to believe in, because it clearly has no impact on their behaviour, and what good is a religion which looks good on paper when it has zero influence on how you live your life? Anyway, it's been an interesting and fun induction to Desicritics. Next time I might play safe and write about the art of growing tomatoes, or the secrets of origami, but I suspect not. Good night and good luck.

Comment by Andrew Morris

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 12:20:15 EST

Couple of observations: I agree with temporal here. I think this is going to be my last comment though, as I ought to get a life again. I take your point about the tourist brochure element, Mrinalini. Although the article is quite clear about sharing my lived experience here. I don't say 'in my experience' at the start of every sentence, it's true, as that would be extremely boring, but you get my point. You want to describe your perspective, you go ahead and write an article for yourself. You virtually have anyway in your comment. :-) But I could also level that your approach seems taken from a partisan tract. I can't believe, for example, that you have omitted to mention countries like Ethiopia which widely practise FGM, but are mainly Christian. Why is that? You can't leave a whole country out and focus on mosques simply because that suits your argument. Temporal is closer to the truth in ascribing this to culture, (and, I might add, to male domination). Maybe that could be the subject of another piece: why it is that men are quite so good at screwing things up...

Comment by temporal

Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:20:30 EST

Mrinalini Sarkar #77: to the best of my knowledge we have not interacted before...therefore please let me clear something up... saffronazi, saffronista, insecuristas, etc. are only directed at imbecilic bigots here...read those who breathe in and out hatred all the time in my personal belief and practice i believe we are all equal regardless of religion or lack of it...and (i also believe) in speaking out against hatred and bigotry and violence of all shades if there is something inherently repulsive it is blind hatred - life is too short to fret and hate *** on another note...like you i was too young to participate in the army atrocities but i was one of the first ones to publicly write and offer my apologies for the injustices perpetrated by the occupying army ps: GM is not a religious injunction - it is cultural and regional bidaa that has crept in some muslim societies