Desicritics Comments on Historical Amnesia: The Romani Holocaust

Comment by Bill

Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:36:00 EDT

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Comment by commonsenseforall77@yahoo.com

Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:38:58 EST

Pissed off guy #27 wrote about the Roman�: "it's sad that people like this exist and what's worse is that they teach their children to act the same.oh how I wish you won't ever have to see any of the above." In a perverted way, it's good the folks like you express their views so candidly and without a hint of self-doubt. Others can learn a lot of lessons about anti-racist thinking and practice after reading your regrettable comments about just another version of the human race. Even though what you say flies against plain commonsense, your comments unfortunately are exemplars of how not to think in a global, polycultural world.

Comment by commonsenseforall77@yahoo.com

Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:29:54 EST

Sumanth # 16: "What has Indian Govt and Indian Media done for "Romani/Gypsy" people? A look at Romani-English dictionary is enough to understand that they were Indians 1000 year back." Sumanth, the tragedy of the romani people is beyond words. However, sorry to burst your bubble here, but there were no "Indians" as the term is currently understood (ie. a nationality and citizens etc.) a thousand years back. Just like the British government is not responsible for Americans, and the Indian government is not responsible for Malaysians of Indian descent. The reason to be concerned about the fate of the romani people arises out of a concern for basic human rights and revulsion against racism, and not because they were "Indians" or not-Indians in the past. Isn't that plain commonsense??

Comment by commonsenseforall77@yahoo.com

Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:24:06 EST

Pissedoffguy #27 wrote about the Romani: "I never said I wished them all dead.I even dated a gypsy girl once." An all too familiar trope. Goes something like this: "Trust me, I have nothing against them. Indeed some of closest friends are Hindus/Muslims/Christians/Blacks etc. etc...however, most of them are the scum of the earth..." Good going pissedoff. Have you thought of taking out a patent on the label Romanian and charging all the Romani for infringing your patent. Isn't that the neo-liberal strategy of making money out of anything that moves or does not move??

Comment by Vivek Krishan

Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:44:15 EST

Message for Sunil Murthy- if you read this get in touch- vivek AT mailworks DOT org. Be good to catch up. (Editors- sorry for this off topic message but if you know the contact details for Sunil Murthy could you please send me his contact details or forward this message to him? We knew each other in Bangkok in the late 80's and have since lost touch...thanks muchly and congratulations on your very weighty opinion site...)

Comment by Alin Dosoftei

Sun, 23 Dec 2007 14:43:41 EST

I don't know why exactly I remembered about a German father of Vidya Balan. Now I can't find any source to confirm this. Maybe (but I don't know how), the idea of having a German father transfered in my mind from Diya Mirza to Vidya :)

Comment by Alin Dosoftei

Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:43:11 EST

I am really pleased to find this article, well organized and documented, about the amnesia regarding the Holocaust of the Romani people. Indeed, as some readers emphasized in replies, there is no significant Romani public representation to defend our rights and this permitted for some to get rid of the blame and for some others to emphasize the uniqueness of their plight. There are important cultural differences between Roma and local non-Roma, we are very identity-conscious and we don't want to get assimilated, while the local people is not very keen to accept a multicultural society. Thus we still have to find ways for a real communication (because it seems that we should have the initiative, the non-Roma count on their power and are not interested in this). I see that there replied also some non-Roma from Romania. Paradoxically, although it is the country with the most Romani influence in the local society, where, Roma and non-Roma, we know best each other, Romania is also a champion at anti-Romani violence, every day one may hear such calls for a new Holocaust. This intensified from the beginning of this year when Romania was accepted in EU and subsequently the mass-media in the other countries of this Union, labeled the entire population of Romania as Gypsies. Instead fighting for dismantling the Gypsy unreal imagery, the non-Roma had an ostrich attitude, turning on Roma and blaming them for all the lies from the Western tabloids and (more frightening) venturing again in public the idea of a new Holocaust for solving this "Gypsy problem". Regarding the naming issue, I'd like to remind that Roma are named Roma from the very beginning, while the Romanians had the name "Rum�ni" until the 19th century, when they changed it, for image purposes into "Rom�ni". This inspires me to post here an article about the names of the Romani people, I think there are very necessary some clarifications. Regarding somebody's reply about the origin of the Roma from Doms mixed with Europeans, I'd like to say that it is no documented source to attest that Roma come from Doms. In Romani, "Rom" means "husband". As for the mixing, this occurred more or less, depending on the Romani caste (there are many Romani castes, each with its own rules), but no Romani caste can be compared to Mestizos or Mulattos, as people with mixed culture. Thus I want to remind that this is an unrealistic vision, the culture matters first. Who would contest the Desiness of Vidya Balan? She played such substantial characters, so involved in the specific features of the Desi society that everyone would laugh at the idea that she is not Desi enough. On the other hand, Norah Jones, although she has a Desi father, she did not grew up in this culture. By emphasizing this thing, one may point to the genetic admixture among the other Desi people. In fact, both the Roma and the Desis that remained in the Subcontinent had some Persian, Turkish and European admixture. What conclusions may draw someone by using this logic? That Roma and other Desis who have some English blood are closer among them and farther from other Roma and Desis? Of course not, the culture matters first. What's the use of having some other blood if someone does not share the other culture? Plus, by stating such descriptions one should clarify what is Desi blood and what is the "other" blood, because the people belonging to the Desi civilization are very diverse. In this sense, I just happen to remember of Prashant Tamang, the winner of Indian Idol 3, with his East Asian features.

Comment by Diesel

Mon, 26 Nov 2007 02:05:28 EST

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Comment by Jay

Thu, 16 Aug 2007 02:04:08 EDT

Great piece. Can anyone explain why Indian blogs and online journals are world class while mainstream newspapers like the Times of India are such disgusting vomit? Is it simply a generation thing? On a different note the world's foremost Holocaust scholar Raul Hillberg, has completely discredited Daniel Goldhagen whom Sridhar quotes. Yet Goldhagen is feted in Germany, a nation that continues to suffer from unimaginable guilt because the Holocaust emanated right from inside its belly. And Finkelstein (himself born of Holocaust survivors) wrote a book to debunk the Goldhagen thesis was sidelined to the remotest corners of US academia before being denied tenure even there. Holocaust scholarship is contentious to say the least! And what about Armenia? Their genocide by the Turks is an unnoticed tragedy.

Comment by PH

Wed, 15 Aug 2007 17:37:01 EDT

Very thorough and informative piece. Really learned a lot, thanks, Sridhar!

Comment by Sonal Panse

Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:41:31 EDT

Romany situation in North Moravia a year ago - More women claim unwanted sterilization

Comment by Deepa Krishnan

Tue, 14 Aug 2007 23:43:43 EDT

Very nicely written, Koshy. And of course, there are many other genocides that go unreported. Genocidewatch talks about THE EIGHT STAGES OF GENOCIDE - it's really interesting: http://www.genocidewatch.org/eightstages.htm

Comment by alex

Tue, 14 Aug 2007 23:08:14 EDT

The sad history of gipsy is because they were never part of the feudal system in wich modern europe originates.Feudal system in europe is like japan during the samurai era, only the military and religious nobility has rights, were educated and involved in politic and law.Gipsy had no military or religious eilte and therefor had no rights.Don't be racist and if you feel the need to hate, hate the turk or greek who displaced these ppl and didn't provide for them.

Comment by Marjolijn Hohberger

Fri, 11 May 2007 02:14:17 EDT

Keep up the good work. The problem with representing themselves is obvious, then even the -th generation is not sure it is even wise there may well be an ancestral gut feeling to keep silent about and hide their identity. Which is what actually these days persecuted groups do. Just to diminish suffering and racism reality and history must be diffused, but times are not better there is no feeling of shame on behalf of the white racist dominant populations... People are scared in Europe, there is a missing spirituality, intolerance and stupidity. We need to cooperate to rid of stereotypes and prejudices. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Comment by temporal

Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:30:50 EST

qalandar: would you like to write for desicritics?

Comment by Qalandar

Thu, 30 Nov 2006 13:20:51 EST

I discovered this site yesterday, lots to read but I've bookmarked this!

Comment by Sunny Singh

Wed, 29 Nov 2006 18:48:06 EST

Thank you Sridhar for this piece on a long neglected aspect of history. I am pitching into this debate, so apologies in advance for the intrusion. Here goes some interesting information on the gypsy/Roma that I got from a "gitano" historian in Spain: There is some research emerging that in addition to the "Latcho Drom" wandering theory, the gypsies are the descendants of the thousands of artisans, artists, dancers and musicians that various Turkish invaders carried back with them from India. The theory suggests that these enslaved artists/artisans were then sent off to far flung parts of the empire. The gypsies do follow certain "Hindu" rituals even though they long ago converted to Christianity or Islam, based on their location. For example, the "gitanos" will use different dishes for the "payos" (non-gypsies). Strangely enough, they will suspend these rules for Indians because we are considered non-"payos". Aaman, wonderful site. I was directed here by one of your readers. Keep up the wonderful work.

Comment by Sergey Romanov

Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:43:36 EST

H.E.A.R.T. (holocaustresearchproject.org) is an unreliable "education" site. [EDITED - ON REQUEST] http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/11/heart-as-educational-resource.html Think twice before using anything from that site.

Comment by HoloScholar

Sun, 19 Nov 2006 18:14:30 EST

For those that might be interested there is a great new Online Holocaust Resource. Holocaust Education & Archive Research Team maintains a website at: http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/

Comment by cr sridhar

Tue, 19 Sep 2006 07:21:43 EDT

#30 Ruvy I completely agree with your views on the genocide of the Jewish people. Thank you for your comments.

Comment by cr sridhar

Tue, 19 Sep 2006 07:08:18 EDT

#24 balaji How about Stalin, Pinochet,Suharto,and Shah of Iran to name a few.Modern history has a curious tendency of throwing up nasty specimens who top the torture charts.Dont despair the terrible lessons will not stop with Herr Hitler. You will have the benefit of continuing education on man's inhumanity to man as history unfolds itself in the years to come.

Comment by cr sridhar

Tue, 19 Sep 2006 06:53:20 EDT

#23 Heh Agree with you there is little problem in exterminating the Romanies. The problem is who is next?