Desicritics Comments on How Pakistani Government Promotes Terrorism and the US State Department May Be Involved!

Comment by Nachiketa

Sun, 30 Jul 2006 18:17:57 EDT

balaji, Ashoka's campaign against Kalinga was not a religeous war unlike Babur's. Further, your logic about India never being one country is very glib. If we take your logic, Turkey should not be one because the Kurds fight against it, the same with Iran. UK should not be one because the Scots and the Irish don't always assimilate well. There's pretty much no country in the world that has not had it's historical borders altered over time or has some disaffected population or the other. Your very own Pakistan abuses Shia, ahmediyas, hindus and christians. The Balochi freedom fighters are brutally repressed as well. In addition, historically Pakistan has never really existed. Maybe its time to rethink it existence?

Comment by balaji

Sun, 30 Jul 2006 14:08:44 EDT

>>Who created Mohammed Ghauri? Babur? Aurangzeb? ......>> context my friend sanjay. context. you cannot compare babur to today's situation. if you love to do so, you should compare it with ashoka's campaigns. if it was a single country why should ashoka campaign and have the bloody war of kalinga? why should kanlinga people fight ashoka if they were a part of india? with disastrous consequences? the reality of india as british left for us was different from what 'india' was earlier. it is a myth that most of us want to believe that india was india before. it was a cluster of multiple sovereigns. and kings. take it or leave it. if ever india was india, it was under the british, the moghuls, the mauryas and guptas. that too a limited part of india as we know today and for a limited period. you should thank aurangazeb, for he campaigned against the south indian kings. and brought even hyderabad under the moghul empire. and expanded the concept of india! india in my humble view never existed before the british unified india under them, for their sinister purposes. babur defeated ibrahim lodhi. another muslim. who fought for 'india'? myths have an enticing quality. pardon my english sirji. i studied in a vernacular medium ;) hope you wd engage with the ideas than with the english! whatever color they might have! red, green etc., etc., as you adduce!

Comment by Sanjay

Sat, 29 Jul 2006 16:53:40 EDT

And here we have more hijinks from the Red-Green Show: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/us/30seattle.html Notice that nowhere does the NYT bother to mention that this gunman is a Pakistani. Had the fellow been a Hindu, the NYT would have been crowing about it nostop.

Comment by Sanjay

Thu, 27 Jul 2006 19:29:33 EDT

Btw, here's a good clip to watch, in order to summarize Pakistan's worldwide accomplishments to date: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SbssOdruPQ Remember, as per the videoclip, the phone number to call is 461-2423 if you have not yet received your 72 virgins. Operators are standing by.

Comment by Sanjay

Thu, 27 Jul 2006 19:08:14 EDT

Perihelion, are we to believe that Pakistan's Islamic nationalism is inspired by the West? The West may have exploited that sentiment, but they certainly haven't created it. Who created Mohammed Ghauri? Babur? Aurangzeb? Who named the Hindu Kush mountains? It's very politically correct of you act the apologist and try to give the Islamists a clean chit, but you'll find there are too many places around the world where Muslims clash with non-Muslims for it to be a Great Western Conspiracy. Sorry, but those people don't get along well with others, and they have the track record to prove it.

Comment by shirazi

Thu, 27 Jul 2006 01:50:48 EDT

It was much better if such conttroversial subject were not taken up here - a place to foster friendship, preace and goodwill. No?

Comment by Desh

Wed, 26 Jul 2006 14:12:01 EDT

temp: "what am attempting to convey is one cannot get a feel of the whole country's pulse by reading 'three columnists and editorials and letters' in daily dawn" i realize that.. but the vitriolic that the vernacular press has was quite visible in the English press too until two years back. It still is to quite some extent. but for a person who cannot go there - such attempts from me were the only ways to understand the "other side". Cheers, -d.

Comment by temporal

Wed, 26 Jul 2006 13:07:52 EDT

Desh: unfortunately 'common man' gets shafted in both countries....you know...the squeaky wheels get the grease:) I have seen a change..... the last 2 years only. can you read urdu, sindhi pushto papers?....to get a real pulse of the semi-literate desis there you need to read the letters and columns and views expressed there...you will be shocked by the utter condescension, umbrage, vitriol and delusion ...and not pleasantly.... what am attempting to convey is one cannot get a feel of the whole country's pulse by reading 'three columnists and editorials and letters' in daily dawn ...that is akin to learning of India's pulse by only devouring the chandigarh tribune (nothing against that paper - just making a valid point;)) Personally, I am a fan of Shahid Burki who seems to write with a direct voice and one that is well informed. :)... dc based ex-w/b fellow burki is a marginal player within the pakistani establishment....(digression: he was a business associate and close to the former parachuted PM moeen qureshi) I believe that from the Indian perspective, the stakes for disbanding Pakistani Army should be raised so high by India that it becomes impossible for that establishment to do what they are doing! this i find confused and fraught with danger...if you mean that the stakes are raised so high that the army has to disband itself etc.....then we will be wading into uncharted waters briefly: to continue on the economic progress course it has chartered for itself india needs peaceful neighbours ... wrt pakistan that can happen if the occupying army is not disbanded (that would be chaotic) but put under full and firm civilian control...that, unfortunately won't happen anytime soon because uncle sam prefers to deal with dictators (more pliant) than with democratic leaders

Comment by Desh

Wed, 26 Jul 2006 11:53:47 EDT

Temporal: Agree with you. But I think you will also appreciate that there are a number of "common Pakistanis": some who believe and empathize with the Kashmir/Islam bogie and those who dont. And until those who dont empathize are trampled over by those who do.. the common man in India will pay for the lack of voice in the "peace-loving" common Pakistani citizen! I have seen a change coming in the last 2-3 years but that is not substantial enough yet. For last 8-9 years I have been reading three columns in Dawn newspaper regularly - Opinion, Editorial, and the Letters with the hope to listen to the Intellectuals, JOurnalists, and the common man mindsets. The change where the commentators started asking questions occured in the last 2 years only. Personally, I am a fan of Shahid Burki who seems to write with a direct voice and one that is well informed. I believe that from the Indian perspective, the stakes for disbanding Pakistani Army should be raised so high by India that it becomes impossible for that establishment to do what they are doing! Cheers, Desh Drishtikone.com

Comment by temporal

Wed, 26 Jul 2006 10:44:22 EDT

Lakshmikanth: why is not the US not able to capture OBL.? the scrambling ex-CIA operative serves the objectives of the neoconzix in the bush admin.

Comment by temporal

Wed, 26 Jul 2006 10:42:51 EDT

desh: I am convinced that no peace is ever possible with Pakistan...until its Army and ISI is completely disbanded and revamped. agree with above the occupying army (and its runaway child ISI) has to be put back under full civilian control before any meaningful normalisation of relations can begin I do realize that common Pakistani is not to be blamed... but that is not any consolation to the common man in India whose nearone dies in a bomb attack! so very true!...and as for kashmir...the "common man" in pakistan faces more pressing problems...and in most areas of pakistan is an unwilling accomplice of the occupying army's obsessive and self-protective focus on the issue...kashmir and islam are the two bogey issues they have used over and over again to divert common man's attention away from their more immediate problems -- law and order, health, education, responsive administration

Comment by Desh

Wed, 26 Jul 2006 08:04:02 EDT

Lakshmikanth: Good point! That is why I used the word masochistic!! I do not know why they were involved in all this terrorism cover up from Khalistani terrorism to the current jehadi set up. I am convinced that no peace is ever possible with Pakistan (and the Pak establishment will not let us live without terrorism) until its Army and ISI is completely disbanded and revamped. Until the current establishment of the Army and ISI is there ... the violence-mentality will continue! I do realize that common Pakistani is not to be blamed... but that is not any consolation to the common man in India whose nearone dies in a bomb attack! So, as far as I am concerned, going for peace with Pakistani Establishment is a nonsensical approach... somehow the same policy need to be followed that was followed by US vs the Soviets.. escalate the stakes so high that the Union itself becomes bankrupt... ... I personally feel that Vajpayee had the right ideas.. as did Jaswant Singh (probably the best ever Foreign Minister India ever had!). Whoever says Kashmir is the main issue is an imbecile idiot.. Kashmir is a Symptom of the mindset.. not the CAUSE! For, if Pakistan's heart really did beat all that loud for the Kasmiris that those in Gilghit and other PoK areas would have had a better lot.... .... and the areas they literally sold off to China in Aksai Chin would have never been!! If Kashmir indeed was one's "Izzat".. you dont go about selling it for money all over the place .. do you? So, whenever someone from across the border starts the "My Heart Beats for Kashmir" nonsense - I find it nauseating and an insult to my intelligence!! Cheers, Desh Drishtikone.com

Comment by balaji

Wed, 26 Jul 2006 05:10:12 EDT

Well said Lakshmikanth!

Comment by Lakshmikanth

Wed, 26 Jul 2006 03:02:22 EDT

Desh, another interesting thing: why is not the US not able to capture OBL. WHen most of the intelligence points out to his existence in Pakistan? The US state dept. is not only anti India, its anti-US-citizen too!

Comment by Desh

Wed, 26 Jul 2006 01:04:19 EDT

Sanjay & PF: Thanks for such detailed comments! I do agree that US doesnt care about India or Pak. But I really could not understand how the episode of USD 100k wire to Atta by the ISI chief wasnt taken seriously? It sounds downright masochistic to me. I personally do not buy the picture of Pakistani leaders in ISI and the Army to be some lollipop sucking babies who are always "led" to do something... I think those guys - devilish in their intent as they are - have single-handedly created the vast Jehadi network of Islamic Army around the world. What AQ KHan was doing with his famous Nuke Bazaar wasnt easy.. and wasnt simple!! So, its a toss up in my eyes as to who is using who? I am not saying that US is not a meddling force.. they are.. but not everyone they engage with is equally dumb! Cheers, -d. drishtikone.com

Comment by PerihelionFlux

Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:33:48 EDT

it is in the western interests that there is always sabre-rattling and wars going on in the Indian sub-continent and other "third world" countries. this helps perpetuate the notion of "uncivilised louts who need to be civilised" and "we are peaceful and modern but THEY are medieval and tribals" in the western mindset thus legitimising any invasion or incursion in these "third world" countries. case in point: Iraq. who carved up India into pakistan? it wasn't the Indian people's wish. it was a sectarian wedge thrust into India's heart by propping up "leaders" like Jinnah as the mouthpiece of muslims who demanded a separate state. Indians and pakistanis have been fighting each other ever since..poor sods...playing into the hands of gora saabs, just like old times. strategy #1: how can a country grow when it is always fighting within itself or fighting outside forces? the bright brains of the western pirates and discoverers had figured it out a long time back...kill off all natives in the land you invade if you can and even if a small number of them survive, they will die out due to weakening of their genetic pool or will be indistinguishably absorbed by cross-marrying with the invaders...case in point: red indians in America slaughtered by europeans and aboriginals in Australia hunted by poms... why this hasn't happened in India? ironically our big numbers saved us..too difficult to kill off so many Indians and it wouldn't have succeeded in the past and it will never succeed now. so how could India be kept down? strategy # 2 to the rescue. strategy #2: foment trouble in other up and coming countries while building up your own wealth..don't take the side of the stronger country cause that will make it even stronger. support the weaker country against the stronger one while weakening the weaker country even further by corrupting its public institutions as this nullifies the nourishing effect of the support given. This is why US supports Pakistan cause they are the weaker side and their top mandarins are putty in the hands of the yanks to be moulded any which way..war mongering militarist yesterday and "important ally in the war against terrorism" today (Mr. Perfidious Pervez Mushy Musharraf) the west has progressed not so much by its industrious and illustrious minds' efforts as it has by denying the opportunity to grow to other peoples either by actively pillaging their wealth in the past or by means of restrictive and stifling trade practices and selective trade blocs in the more "politically correct" and "gentlemanly" modern times and western social milieu. (funny how people in the west say sorry if they happen to so much as brush against your coat sleeves and yet show no compunction when their elected governments blast the beallah, a la bejesus, out of third world folks). if India has to overcome these "friendly faces with daggers behind their backs" cultured soft talking vultures, then Indians have to see through the game, know its rules and play it like professionals. Meaning of all this?? economic strength and hegemony is the only weapon which will subdue the double-headed serpent of foreign intervention and internal emasculation. Need a case study? Look at China. its current economic strength sends shivers down the spines, constricting the anal sphincters of any wannabe foreign troublemakers to such an extent that they are finding it difficult to breath. all they can say is "ooh" and "aah" with their faces creased with fake expressions of marvelling when they discuss China.

Comment by Sanjay

Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:55:57 EDT

Sorry to give critical commentary -- DesiGirl will quickly slant it as "venom" -- but the US doesn't care if India suffers from terrorism. It only cares about the US getting hit by terrorism. All corners of the US policymaking establishment know that Pakistan is sponsoring terrorism and religious fanaticism, but they find it easier to act as apologists for Pakistan than to try and eliminate the terror threat that it poses. The Britney Spears Brigade may not have the attention span to notice Pakistan's long pattern of cultivating religious extremism -- not just at the expense of its neighbors but at the expense of its own social stability as well -- and so there's no telling how bad things would have to get before the bubble of artificial reality bursts. Maybe these worthy intellects can provide us with their socio-political perspectives to help us with solutions. Hello, Britney?