The Reservation Debate: Seeking Inspiration from the "Internationale"

The thrust of your opinion is ambiguous. maybe purposely so? the govt. is reserving places for the downtrodden, then the govt seems to be helping their cause, isn't it? democracy then is working in this case.

Or are you saying that the downtrodden should effect their own amelioration without waiting for handouts from other power bases? cause if they do climb out of the pit using the handouts then their is no dignity and no sense of personal worth.

in any case, democracy is not the panacea for all ages/societies. at best it is a contemporaneous solution to time-specific problems. it can be only as good as people who participate in it.

considering that large swathes of Indian voters are poor and can be easily intimidated/cajoled in parting with their votes by whosever wields the biggest stick/carrot, it could be argued that Indian society is not mature enough or can't benefit from all the advantages of a democratic system at this stage.

Currently, Indian democracy=demgoguecracy

i liked the bit about demagoguecracy!

i guess the internationale is song of the dispossessed. not of the anti-reservationists.

The debate is, who is dispossessed? The Medico's who made it and are unhappy about what more they cannot get?

Or any one else? whom do they represent? what interests do they represent?

When, one calls for not dividing the nation on the basis of caste, what is behind it? Is the nation united before the 'not so intelligent way of pushing of affirmative action' by a wily Singh, started pushing for 'reservations'? One may not agree with the haste, political expediency or utter stupidity with which it is done. But how about the basic debate?

Where is the data? where is the analysis?

The whole, debate makes me feel sad. There is no space in the debate on real issues. It is just another Bushism. With me or against me.

Merit or reservations. Or a fantasy and a global moral posturing that the world needs to change fundamentally. Get primary education right. Clean it up there. No one objects to such general, 'motherisms'. Is it going to happen in the immediate term?

Where would the Medico's go when their problem and the angst is managed? Wd they be interested in striking, and going on hunger strike till every child in India gets 'decent' education? If they are not going to, they have no right to give prescriptions.

There are no studies to see who benefited from the reservations. What happened to these 'blokes' who did not have merit. How did they fare in life?

And some of the industry captains talking about Merit.

Was there a 'merit' process in place to recruit Mr. Rajiv Bajaj to be where he is? I am not denying the competence of the youngster. But where is the process? How about all those folks who worked their backs off, and probably are as competent? Would they be given opportunity to be MD or Chairman of a company?

And what unity? Any one who takes the trouble of driving a few scores of kilometres from the Metros or 'cities' or 'megacities' can see how united the 'India' that is talked about is.

Harijan bastis - are they within the village? Can a Harijan kid have tea in the local 'resto' in similar cups as 'caste' Hindus can?

Can they even draw water from the village well?

The issue is complex. Only simple minded people would like to make it simplistic. with simplistic solutions. Can we afford to let a sea of humanity to waste away?

And, I do not understand, the bloke who got a 'reserved' seat, has to write the same 'blessed' exam and pass. If she got the same marks as an 'open category' bloke, does it say something about the so called entrance tests?

Disadvantage in India has many hues, and textures.

Rural-urban, upper caste-lowercaste, girls-boys, majority - minority (especially muslims), rich-poor, government school-private school and so on.

Where you belong in the matrix, determines your chances of making it.

I guess, I appreciate, the cynicism of the commenter that it is demogocracy. it can't be just poor, and merit.

Financial poverty is a story. How about sociological poverty. How about poverty of language? How about poverty of abstraction?

Any one interested in statistics, would know, that 'merit' or intelligence is not a monopoly of a narrow group. it is, fortunately evenly distributed. Mother nature is more equitable.

How do we measure so called 'merit'? how about some of us competing with rural, lower caste kids on understanding how weaving is done? try learn the stuff and evaluate our ability to learn. as a measure. let there be a measure.

While, the Medico's have a point, the agitators are utterly arrogant. They demean other jobs that are sweeping, cleaning etc., by saying they would rather do them under reservation.

Try it.

I am waiting for a day, when every one has to clean his/her toilet, because it is more expensive to get a 'sweeper' or anyone to do a menial job. Like in US. The same folks have no qualms cleaning their toilets in US. Is it demeaning of a doctor to clean his toilets?

A devilish thought. Let God clean up all those folks who belong to lower castes, minorities, and therefore non-meritorious people. And let only these arbiters of MERIT live on the planet. Let' us see what happens then. If every one becomes a doctor, engineer, bureaucrat, army officer. And how the society runs. I guess they would not need, non-meritorious nurses etc.

It is a case of fat crying for more milk.

All of South, especially Andhra, Karnataka and Tamil Nadu have had reservations for decades. Have they become bankrupt?

All the new automotive global folks want to run to Chennai.

All the IT types want to run to Bangalore, Chennai and Hyderabad.

All the medical tourism wants to run to Bangalore, Chennai and Hyderabad.

How come?

I do not want to be parochial or regionalist.

Is there something to think about? Are they bogeys?

Valid Points here. It would be difficult to refute them otherwise.

As for the song, it is just a "reflection" and an inspiration to rise against the injust order. This is all I talked of here. It doesnt speak of "my" opinion here.

For the social order, the prescriptions vary. In the mass of jumbled confusion, a middle path needs to be adopted.

If I can speak of this openly, the "democracy" is at work. How this has to be adapted so that the entire group benefits, has to be a matter of debate and not unilateral decisions by the high ups. This is what the protest is all about.

Different commentators have said different things about the whole issue. They are all welcome to their opinion and I hope that things settle down faster so that everyone benefits.

Appreciate your open mindedness Abhishek.

However, I feel sad, that another opportunity to debate the 'disadvantage' that some of our people suffer, and what mitigation can be offered is lost in the din of the biased media and the constructs of the debate.

We cannot wish away the reality of caste. We cannot wish away the advantage some of us get from being from upper castes and upper classes.

It is sad, when some of us construct a debate in binary terms, and the powerful media obfuscates the reality as it is.

It is not good for the country.

Exclusion is like endogamy. Some time or the other the evolutionary genetics would catch up.

Because, I know of a Dalit, who got a seat in an Engineering college on being a Dalit, who went to US and is number two in the world in the area he works in.

He would not have made it, if it were not for reservations. NASA takes his work seriously. If his professor hangs the boots, he would be number one in the world. May be he is number one already. It's been some time since i caught up.

Do we allow such people waste away?

How do we contstruct an equitable system which balances - on balance is justifiable? without being shrill. That is the question.

For the social order, the prescriptions vary. In the mass of jumbled confusion, a middle path needs to be adopted.

This is what I wrote up earlier on...and it still holds.

Balaji,

The answer is simple: Uniform and secular (non-religious) basic education to all classes of the society. This would make sure that a "Lower Caste" person does not feel that he is a "Lower Caste" and an "Upper" caste person does not feel that he is upper caste.

What reservations do (on an AVERAGE) is this: Instead of equalizing people in the start line, they equalize people at the FINISH line. A race run with all the people on the same start line is a fair game. But when no one cares about where they started from, and then finally says removes some people from the finish line and puts someother people in their place for the simple reason that their start lines were not the same, its a wrong argument and its totally unjust. So what we need to do is to induce a social culture which makes people equal at the start line. Nothing complicated in that: The solution is secular and uniform basic education.

As for ur ' "dalit" being number 2 in the world' argument: May I ask you about how sure u are that the "upper caste" guy whom the "dalit" replaced was not to become say the number 1 in the feild? Or even if the "Dalit" was number 1 in the feild, what guarentee is there to say that the guy whom he replaced was not to become someone like Einstien in that feild. You may cite that it is very low in probability. By the same argument, the "Dalit's"(or any "Upper Caste" guy's for that matter) rise to the number 2 in his/her field is very less in probability (they are also called exceptions). Lets not play with exceptions and draw conclusions on the average behaviour with it. Its statistical stupidity.

Fair enough, Lakshmikanth. Anecdotal evidence has limitations.

I guess there could be Einsteins, who lost out because of this 'bloke'.

I am still, in my mind, puzzled about the start line and finish line. Can we create equality at the start line as one would like to fantasize?

I do not know.

I have had parents, who were educated, upper class at least one of them the highest caste -and educated.

I do know the folks who were in the same class as mine in school, from varying backgrounds.

They did not have parents like mine. The same school the same teachers. We would compete. These blokes were among the top 5 in the class. Today, I would like to believe those kids were as smart as me if not better.

I do know there is a sea change in where i am and where they are. Probably, I earn 50 to 100 times more than they do, and enjoy more privileges than they do.

I had the advantage of language. abstraction. education - supplemental at that. all from my family. If i was born in any of their families, I am not sure where I would have been. And mind you they all belonged to lower castes and lower classes.

Same education, same teachers, same school. Similar performance in the school. a few marks here and there do not matter - do they?

I have no issues. Let the anti-reservationists win. It does not materially matter to me or my family. or my children.

I am just humbly presenting that - who is to oversee the implementation of quality education? will we be there to demand the same stuff after the agitation is over? I do know no agitation goes on for ever. Would all of this passion be there to check that 'quality, and secular education at the start line' is available to most if not all children irrespective of caste, creed or religion?

I do not know.

Let the poor blokes figure out a way of dealing with it. Let history tell where the new Einsteins come from.

Even in my statistical stupididy, where a majority do not belong to upper class or upper caste, by numbers wise, intelligence, if mother nature is equitable (whom I believe does not know English or has gone to better schools in life) who i believe is, would deliver equally.

The journals of the world and Nobels of the world may not recognize. They would be there, creating value for the society in their humble ways.

Start lines will not happen. in the short term. Happy if they ever. You know, I know.

Another battle lost. Another battle fought. Freedom is won inch by inch. Nay millimter by millimeter. Probably nano-meters.

No empires last for ever. Not even the most powerful.

Intelligence and merit is not the sole property of those who proclaim it.

The question is what is MERIT? History will decide.

Till then, let us wait and watch.

It stuck me as I was ruminating about the whole argument.

Where were these people who are agitating today when the world was going as it is?

Were they concerned about others? Beyond themselves?

Today, some stupid Singh and his political expediency pushed 'reservations', without foresight or preparation, we see this agitation.

And all the arguments for equitable education for all.

When it pinches us we speak. What does it say about us?

I, hence believe that the inanities and concerns mouthed by anti-reservationists are that. inanities.

None of them, as far as my memory goes, (it is good I can assure, I learnt more than 2000+ some thirty years ago, shlokas in Sanskrit and verses in my mother tongue, and remember quite a few of them even today) have in the recent past talked about the inequity in education or spoken about the reforms that are required so that the poor lower caste blokes can have a chance in life.

Hence, I am constrained to believe that it is a self-centered agitation of people who are concerned about themselves. MERIT is a meaningless construct which is mouthed so that there can be legitimacy for the argument.

I have no argument about it. In a democracy every one has a right to represent his/her thought and struggle for advancement of their own ilk.

No seats to be given to lower castes no issue. No reservations no issue. No one has the right to arrogate and say that MERIT confines itself to the corridors of the few who made it. Not because of their own intrinsic intelligence or capabilility. But owing to their circumstance.

Societies with iniquities have to deal with instability. Iniquities are the basis for 'extreme' language and thoughts. And often thoughts leading to extreme action.

Fortuntely our friends from the MERIT brigade have nothing to fear. Indians are wont to non-violence. Excepting the Bajrang brigade. Again upper caste thoughts executed by stupid lower caste people. Who can't see manipulation. And what do they do? Scare the minorities!

Slavery is cast in caste. In the mindsets. Carved in peoples' persona. Hence no violent eruptions.

Karmic theories are abound. And accepted by the poor blokes.

Let casteist, Hinduism survive, and proliferate, under the name of MERIT. Let others rot. Who cares?

It's a democracy. Jiski laathi, uski bhains! :-)

Oops, what passion does. You do not spell-check :-)

Pardon the goofs. It should have been 'struck me', and I guess there would be more spellos. Am not going to correct all of them. Have a poor internet connection. Wireless, AnilDhirubaiAmbaniGroup. Reliance with a new Accented A. About 1 to 10 kbps max! Often hovering around 1!

I must not just bitch, appreciate that I can smoke and write!

thank heavens, am able to post!

Well said, Balaji. The "merit" of those people who made it to IITs and IIMs is in large part due to their circumstance and not because of their innate ability or intelligence. Simply proclaiming education as a fundamental right of every child wont help a backward child compete equally with the others. What about quality teachers, what about coaching fees, what about the family support env, is the government going to provide all this. My problem is that these noble intentions are just that, intentions - they cannot be implemented. Much easier to implement reservations. And why limit it to education, why not extend it to private and public sector jobs too. You know how many jobs people get because of references, and if you are an upper caste professional, you are much more likely to have a friend or relative in the same profession than some poor obc/dalit graduate. It's not a level playing field till you have reservations.

People work

in Govt Jobs
in private sector jobs
in business
in unorganised sector.

What is the percentage of all these 4 categories?

The govt and private sector jobs will not be more than 4% of total work opportunities in the country.

What about previleges in remaining 96% of the areas for OBCs, SC/STs.

Its easy for feudals like Arjun Singh to bribe the leaders(creamy layers) of so called oppressed and offer them a small portion of the pie and garner votes for his party for next 20 years.

By the way, are not Kshatriyas upper caste?

Did not they lose limbs and life for ages while protecting everyone else? Is not it an oppression on them by the society on a whole?

The entire theory of oppression of lower castes by upper is a story created by Western Historians.

Were STs who remained totally isolated were ever oppressed (before 1800AD)?

I am blinded by the brilliance and dazzled by the daftness.

brilliant sumanth.

yes 4% is not worth fighting for. apparently. but i learnt from you in these portals that systems are non-linear.

probably the fight is because the 4% is not just 4% influence and control on society? and more than 4%?

true, the kshatriyas lost a limb or two. and according to you have not benefited by their losing a limb or two. or you believe they are at the bottom rung of the indian terra firma?

i am amazed to learn new history that the westerners started the untouchability movement. if you can find credible proof, i guess the dalits of the indian world could file a case with the british and the europeans for retribution or some damages! instead of fighting with local 12%.

try a trek to any tribal area. you will know what the plainspeople did, do and are doing to the tribals. and all the bloody laws that interfere with the tribals' existence.

drive 30 kilometers away from the city that you live in. go to a village and see how dalits live. you believe the british have created untouchability? the indignity?

you must be kidding. if not others, yourself.

and about 96% unorganized jobs and the stuff? i am sure they are available to every one who wants to take them up. no reservations required. it is an open society. or do the upper caste need reservations to do these jobs? i am sure the obcs and dalits will welcome. with open arms.

there are many, cutting dead animals, stitching chappals, tapping toddy, weaving magic, mending metal and what have you. great variety there.