Freedom to Paint Bharat Mata NUDE

The MF hussain withdraws his movie when Muslim clergy protest against it, but cites freedom of expression when Hindu or national feelings are hurt! Talk of double standards.

Mayank, have you considered that more than double standards, MFH is practising survival techniques?

Besides, will he even find anything even remotely sensuous to draw regarding Islamic subjects?

As an atheist I say, Polytheism Zindabad! Zindabad to anthropomorphic pantheons!

I agree that artists should be allowed creaive freedom, but i feel that we live in a huge society, one which is continually morphing, changing, reacting and mainly, thinking. Artists and all others should take into account the society into which they will be releasing their work. Just because you have the phallus associated with a God or some sculptures in intimate positions, doesnt mean you can apply the same rules to art for today. Remember, no symbol is made in one day, the depiction of the phallus as the lingam is a result of more than atleast a thousand years. Also, dress acceptable in the 1400 or 1500s may not be acceptable today. In the same manner, something that was acceptable a century ago need not necessarily be praised today. Artists should keep the societal context in mind. Just going out and blabbering or drawing what you like tells us of a man who does not understand the flow of the tide and his surroundings. Also offending people (shit loads of them at that) in the name of freedom of expression is not justified. Even the government detains political or religious leaders who it fears will stoke violence or unrest due to their fiery speeches. Think about it, if they are not allowed to talk, why should artists enjoy so much expressive freedom that they end up hurting peoples sentiments and feelings, especially in an age where nudity is still largely considered blasphemous. I think the artist should display some maturity and refrain from art that offends. Why not show your creative freedom by creating something that doesnt offend people.

Hi Mayank - But double standards is the Indian Govt. policy when it comes to treating the 'minorities'.

Hi Ambar - I agree with you about "survival techniques". But it is high time the Muslims are desensitized, a first step towards which has been taken by the Danish and later European newspapers.

Hi SidDes - Atany Dey recently wrote Part 3 of 'Freedom to Offend', here - it explains why and how it is impossible not to offend others. Why, if I follow my Hindu way of worship, even that offends the Abrahamic followers, doesn't it?

Coming to your point, artists are Creators in their own right. Ergo, artists along with key others in the society, lead and make the society what it is. Remove Art from Indian culture (and art includes music, dance, painting, architecture...), and there is no culture! I'm thankful to our forebears that we have a very mature understanding of arts and sexual imagery.

You have a very valid point there Sooraj, artists are to a large extent the depictors of culture, but i was refering to painting. Artists like MF Hussain should take into mind that in India, and also a large part of the world, religion is very important. People identify greatly with their religion, they adhere to the norms and mores set by it and dont react very kindly to what they think is an insult to their religion, take for example the Danish cartoons. Mr Hussain must also remember that he is a Muslim, and although I know that he didnt mean or even think of it, people will allege that he drew nudes of Saraswati, etc to insult Hindus. he must understand and realize his position in todays society as someone whos work is in the spotlight, and just like politicians and decision makers, it is imperative that he try and be politically correct as far as possible. I would say that applies to all other people like him.

Sooraj:

This was a good article that I just got to read!

I agree with you on all points here. It seems over the years of 700 years of Mughal and Brit rule - the "shamefulness of the nude and sex" has somehow got ingrained into the Hindu psyche also. I have visited Konark - a celebrated temple - and the art I saw on its wall with numerous orgies depicted makes the most hardcore porn of today's internet look decidedly pedestrian!

Somehow we become very much like the entity we fight with a passion - something that Hindus have been upto for last 700 years of imposed rule. Look at Bush and America of today - I can see it approaching the closed Isamic societies more and more - same religious high sensitivity, same jingoism, same state intervention... we become whom we fight most! :-)

Cheers,
desh
Drishtikone.com

I dont understand why Hindus should NOT FEEL offended by nude pics of their Gods and Godesses! I dont care how Hindus lived 2000 years ago and what they considered acceptable or not; I wont make a decision based on whether hinduism has problem with depicting gods nude or not - I make a decision based on what I fee is right or not right - and I think MF Hussain is an idiot and shoult NOT be drawing not only Hindu Gods, but any gods nude.

Also, Why do the junta believe that such practices of nude art was appreciated by one and all even 2000 years ago; Just because we dont know who all opposed that art 2000 years ago and who all protested 2000 years ago, doesnt mean that the society accepted it even back then :).

Suyog

Suyog, feel free to feel offended. Feel free to call MFH an idiot. No issues with any of that.

None of that changes the fact that MFH should be free to express himself. If you don't like what he says, counter it or ignore it. Just don't try to force him into silence.

@Ambar - that also applies in reverse too - its too easy to say "if you dont like it, ignore it". Take for example, desicritics itself. Am I free to call you a f*%&$ hypocrite and give you the choices of abuses without getting the comment yanked off :). Or should I complain that I am being silenced :). Chances are, that if I do do that, then you wont "ignore" it because you didnt like it, but will come down on me with even more abuses :)

As I said eslewhere, my freedom of speech doesnt give me the freedom to degrade someone else just in the name of "freedom".

PS: I really dont mean any of the words above, I just wanted to give an example...

Suyog

Hi SidDes - Who knows, MF Hussain may be drawing Hindu Goddesses nude with the intention of insulting HIndus; it is possible. But I once again stress that political correctness should be something that artists should never concern themselves with.

Hi Desh - thank you! And your insightful comment where a group start behaving like their enemies they fight, it does seem very much like that! Although in the Bush case, Christianity is also as dogmatic as Islam.

Hi Suyog - Firstly, Hindus may feel offended - it is their freedom of expression of offence too! But the downside is for someone who feels offended, who will dwell on the unpleasant matter and react unfavourably. You are free to carry negative feelings, it is not as healthy as positive or neutral feelings, that is all.

Let's forget that Hindus in olden days were a sexually permissive society. So would you also agree that we go around destroying all temples and rebuilding them with more conservative art?

Sooraj:

I can see Suyog's point... and I find that to be one point of view. You have another. Both are with reference to your enculturation. I like to believe that sex was not a dirty word - until Mughals came in. In fact, the idea was that if any action is indulged in a detached manner - now dont ask me how you can have sex when you are detached! If you arent thinking of it then only viagara can give you the erection :-) - then it is not karma-inducing.

Moreover, I doubt that there is really anything called "Sin" in vedanta - I maybe wrong - but it really doesnt make sense. I will give you an example. My wife follows a certain sect where eating meat is "prohibited".. so when we married.. she said that our Guru says eating meat is "not allowed". My reply was to say "it is NOT allowed" makes it rigid and therefore does not lend to the freedom that is critical for exploration into self realization. What should be said instead is that eating meat is "not recommended".

Sin - generally, would occur when you are going against an established norm. but if there is a Norm - then freedom of mind is NOT there.. so, HOW can YOU EVER ATTAIN the INFINITE by LIMITING your experiences?? How can I experience the Infinite by creating Boxes and Jumping into them? Its an impossibility!

And all you need to know about the relevance of eating meat is that Vivekananda relished the Green Turtles of US vs the Black Turtles of Calcutta lakes! Of course, did I say that I am a Vegetarian since birth.. and by choice? ;-)

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Hmm, well, i must agree that the idea of the unclothed body being a shameful thing to see is an entirely foreign concept brought to mainland India first by the Mughals and then the Brits, but like i said before, culture is not the produce of one year or a couple of decades. It is a long and ongoing process. Our culture is what we have and see today. Jeans, salwar kurtas, saris, t shirts, art, poetry, paintings and a new addition, the electronic culture, the biggest of which is blogs. We cannot judge ourselves by the customs and practises of times long gone. Think of it, can you actually go out on the street clothed like they are on the sculptures on the Konark Sun Temple? Would people really appreciate it if you told them that you are doing this because its our culture (not to mention the police)? My point is our culture is what it is today. And today, sex and nudity are still largely taboo in our society. It is very possible that in the coming future this may change and people get comfortable enough to move around nude or depict nudity and sex more in their art (believe me I'm all for it ;-)) but now is not the time to be gung ho for it. Let it happen slowly, but surely, trying to further it just to be different or to gain fame and stir controversy will only aggravate an already fragile situation.

For the most part, I read the articles in Desicritics to learn, and this article and the comments following on have been most insightful.

For the most part, this is an article about majority/minority relations, with the slight coloring of 'what constitutes pornography?'. In its essence, it is a questions for Hindus to debate - it was their goddess who was depicted. It is a question for Indians, whether Hindu, Moslem or Buddhist to consider. It is within their jurisdction that this occurred.

But some of us not within your normal bounds can yet derive insights.

As a descendant of Abraham the Hebrew, and a believer of the senior "Abrahamic religion", as well as a member of the Children of Israel, certain comments resonate particularly strongly.

The one that really hit home was this - "But double standards is the Indian Govt. policy when it comes to treating the 'minorities'." (comment #4)

Change "Indian" in that sentence and insert any European country, or even one in the Americas and the sense of "where have I seen this before?" hits the head like a cricket bat.

It got me to thinking and examining the question at hand, tossing it all around my poor dogmatic Jewish head.

It took a while before it came to me.

MF Hussein is a Moslem. He believes - or says he believes - in ONE G-d. So, no matter how artistically he can depict them, he shouldn't be drawing Hindu goddesses. Not because they may be naked, but because his is insulting Allah by giving even token recognition to goddesses.

From the point of view of the faith he says he professes, he, by drawing any god or goddess, is indulging in idolatry. Any artist, to some small degree, worships his art.

It doesn't matter whether the depiction is pornographic or heroic (or both at the same time) - for MF Hussein, it is idolatry.

So what insight did I get that makes this worth writing on Desicritics?

I suddenly understood why it was that Moslems wanted a separate state in South Asia, something I had never really comprehended before.

Hi Desh - Well said!

Hi SidDes - Yes, our present culture is quite prudish and sex-embarrassed. And what I mean to say is that artists can play a huge role in transforming 'present' culture to 'future' culture. The transformation that you want to postpone has begun!

Hi Ruvy - The Indian Govt. treats Muslims extremely favourably to the angst of the Hindus. They are given reservations, subsidies etc. just for their votes.

I didn't get what exactly it is that you are saying. But yes, Indian Muslims are quite very different from any other Muslims. The good thing is that they are very Indian!

If MF Hussain can break the dogmas of Islam, isn't that really good?

I suddenly understood why it was that Moslems wanted a separate state in South Asia, something I had never really comprehended before.

-- MF Hussain made you realize that? LOL. OK.....

"why it was that Moslems wanted a separate state in South Asia"

All power to you for getting it! :-) Given Jinnah's "secularism-laden" speeches and the raisond'etre earlier of "Two Nation Theory" - I still can't get it??!! If he indeed wanted his Muslim Nation - what the heck did he mean that all religions should be equally cherished in his state!?

The basic problem - and the Muslims amongst the commentators and bloggers may please correct me and chime in - is that in Islam there is a strange and strong connection between "Deen" (religious) and "Duniyavi" (Worldly). A world where both are separated is inconceivable in most sections. THAT is the strongest factor behind the proliferation of Madrasas! Like I said in an earlier comment I did an extensive survey and research in UP amongst the Muslims.. and the MOST important reason cited by the parents for sending their kids to Madrasas and NOT regular schools was THIS!!

Hence, in a country that is NOT governed by Shariat - the Deen is divorced from Duniyavi... which creates an inherent dichotomy in the lives of the devout. That is why, and this is just MY take on this, the Muslims have been at loggerheads when they were Minorities and did not give religious freedom to minorities when they were in Majority and run AS AN Islamic state! It is an impossibility in THAT set up!

The question I had asked Deepti earlier in one of her posts - and she had brought up three societies - Moors, Turkey (of Kemal Ataturk) and Akbar's rule and was irritated by the question .. was important in this perspective. All the Muslim-led societies that "allowed" other religions to co-exist were THOSE that kind of "rebelled" explicitly with the existing Islamic practices and polity.

I think MORE than anything else, the Muslims need to revisit THIS very PRECEPT if things have to change from what they are!

Religion CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be tied to the State in a multi-dimensional and multi-cultural State if peace is to be guaranteed - which is an given impossibility in the Deen-Duniyavi paradigm!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

desh, we held that conversation on your post Gods That Fail Here you bring up valid points.

What irks me in this tardy affair is since when did India become the keep of one religious group?

And I agree with Sooraj, Indian muslims are different. I can vouch for the fact that for many of us the bonds of friendship come before our religious affiliations.

After visiting one of MF Hussian's exhibitions in Delhi I realized that non of his depictions of the goddesses were offensive, mundane yes.

He is an over- exposed artist and is known to do things just to get attention and why not? In the long run even bad publicity works in favor of an artist.

"What irks me in this tardy affair is since when did India become the keep of one religious group? "

Whoever said that?

"I realized that non of his depictions of the goddesses were offensive, mundane yes"

Muhammad Cartoons: Same difference! Different reactions from you!

In Hussain's case its "unnecessary brouhaha".. in Muhammad Cartoon's case its a call for sensitivity. :-)

You may not find it offensive, but for a devout person who worships Saraswati in Benaras - its blasphemous! And quite frankly.. you have NO RIGHT to speak on HIS behalf! PERIOD!

If there has to be any peace.. and any sensitivity - there HAS to be Balance of Views! Lets just understand that basic Precept.. otherwise we are just fighting a losing battle!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Agree with Desh here coompletely! Esp the last comment!

Suyog

agree with you on all points here. It seems over the years of 700 years of Mughal and Brit rule - the "shamefulness of the nude and sex" has somehow got ingrained into the Hindu psyche also.

Make up up your mind desh....you seem to want the urban hindus to be progressive and yet talk about blasphemy for the hindu peasant.....what a laugh!

Balanced view pish posh....reeks of mendacity if you ask me

And it seems i have to tell you the same point again and again but you dont seem to get it- hopefully this will be the last time

My religion allows me to express my gods in any way i please their 'God' doesnt and if I dont respect the difference then it doesnt say much about my maturity?

Enough said?

My religion allows me to express my gods in any way i please their 'God' doesnt and if I dont respect the difference then it doesnt say much about my maturity?

Deepti, if you choose to "respect" the difference, you're agreeing to play by their rules.

Ambar, how is that? Respecting the difference is what holds India together. Why does it have to be 'my way or the highway'- 'either you are with us or against us?

Deepti:

Its NOT urban or rural difference. Religion to me is a PERSONAL STATEMENT!

I have NO RIGHT to say that feeling bad about someone calling Muhammad was a Pedophile is STUPID and "BACKWARD" as much as I have to say SIMILAR STUFF about a person who worships Saraswati as an Isht-devi and feels bad when someone draws her nude!

I am just saying MY RELIGIOUS beliefs ARE MINE.. YOURS are YOURS... one who feels bad about Saraswati's nude paintings IS HIS!

And JUST because YOU were BORN in a HINDU set up DOES NOT MAKE you (or me) any more of a spokesman of HINDUS as, say, Bal Thackeray! If he should shut up about Hindu Religion so SHOULD YOU! So, quite frankly, STOP imposing YOUR interpretation of Hinduism on OTHERS! I have an "independent" view but I respect others' views who think worshipping is the way to salvation. The truth is if they indeed do it dutifully and detachedly, they ARE INDEED RIGHT!

We cannot ask each other to think different than our INHERENT beliefs. Reaction, YES, should be civilized no matter how bad you feel!

"Balanced view pish posh....reeks of mendacity if you ask me"

Lack of balance in views reeks of injustice and and plain prejudice! Separate treatment in analysis and response to Blacks and Whites for a similar event is generally termed as RACIST!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Desh:Somehow we become very much like the entity we fight with a passion - something that Hindus have been upto for last 700 years of imposed rule.

And then you have the gall to speak up for Benaras Hindu who you seem to applying to have become close minded due to the foriegn rule

If you're dealing with people whose mantra is "with me or against me", you need to use the same mantra. Multiculturism/pluralism cannot be adopted when dealing with monoculturists. The latter will happily shaft the former. I'm an atheist, but you don't see me railing against Hinduism or Buddhism or Baha'ism. I don't see them railing against each other either.

I know I'm not painting a very liberal picture of myself here, but I'm near fanatical about freedom, and intolerant of monoculturist ideologies.

And regarding Idol Worship - I believe that BEST has been expressed by Vivekananda in his famous 1893 speech..
Paraphrasing him this is what he essentially said: Idol worship is the domain of spiritually evolving people in their spiritual infancy. They have not been able to go "inside" and try to look for representations outside. And just like it is rather facetious for an Old man to say that Youth was a sin.. it is as much facetious for someone who feels internal exploration is the way to spiritual union to say that Idol Worship is a sin or "regressive"!

So, Deepti, learn to live with differences and celebrate those differences.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

We cannot ask each other to think different than our INHERENT beliefs. Reaction, YES, should be civilized no matter how bad you feel!

Then in your interpretation we are no different from animals and cannot look beyond our inherent notions and beliefs?

Lol, you leave little hope for mankind for dialogue or enlightenment for that matter.

I am not imposing my views on anyone - it is you who is threatened by it..You've called me a hypocrite, someone who is irritated by it whenever I tried to have a religious debate with you as my religion does allow me to.

I understand that one muslim does not symbolise his whole community just as one hindu, you or me cannot speak for all but at the same time if we dont engage each other on religious debates howelse would we understand each other or reach a middle ground and thus live in peace?

And now you call me a Racist for wanting peace and understanding the differences that there are in society and being tolerant towards them.

Nothing in this world is black and white.

If you cant see the shades of grey then there is little hope for you.

Call me whatever you want - but yes my views are my own and I am free to talk about them just as I let you enjoy yours.

If I enjoy a certain freedom I will let others enjoy it too even if their freedom within their own 'arena' doesnt orelse mine will be curbed too.

Bark your pseudo intellectual argument on someone else's door , my inherent tolerant beliefs remain unshaken by your pessimistic outlook.

"And then you have the gall to speak up for Benaras Hindu who you seem to applying to have become close minded due to the foriegn rule"

Deepti: Do you just argue for argument or do even pause to think? You surprise me with shallowness and "silos" of your observations!

I was saying that 700 years of rule have brought in the senstivity from the Middle Eastern religions into our fold. Well.. if that brings the sensitivity about feeling bad about our Gods and Goddesses in nude.. then SO BE IT! I am not implying that it is backward! I am just saying as it is! It needs to be respected!

Even during the Vedic times, it wasnt one monolith of a population! In fact if you listen to or read Vedas you will feel clearly that there is a dichotomy of views between the Profound and the Ritualistic! I celebrate BOTH although I PERSONALLY side with the Profound! But that is MY PERSONAL CHOICE!

Profound in the Vedas was THE OBJECTIVE! That is why - even though its OFT repeated that Vedas was the END of knowledge - there came a need to write the UPANISHADS.. and still further need for Krishna to elucidate the PROFOUND principles in Gita! In my personal book, Vedanta got its LIFE in Gita! The conception was laid in the earlier works of Vedas!

You know, seriously, you come off as a fanatic to me.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Lol, a fanatic? another adjective to add in the list of abuses you are hurling at me.....doesnt say much for Vedantic compassion

I was saying that 700 years of rule have brought in the senstivity from the Middle Eastern religions into our fold. Well.. if that brings the sensitivity about feeling bad about our Gods and Goddesses in nude.. then SO BE IT! I am not implying that it is backward! I am just saying as it is! It needs to be respected!

So if we Hindus are now acting like the orthodox muslims and getting all offended by nudity like they are by the toons SO BE IT?

As I said Black and White are your prime shades

Any other name you want to come up and call me with while I laugh my self to my pooja room and tell my favorite idol Krishna that you suffer from the foot and mouth syndrome?

Maybe now we should have a hindu version of a fatwa against the Ras Lela or demolish the Konark temple while we are at it

Greys? Thats exactly what I say when I state that there is NO my way nor YOUR way.. .everyone has a way and we all need to respect that!

regarding toons and nudity.. arent YOU the one who wrote an entire post on being sensitive about the Prophets depiction?

So that compassion vanishes the moment an idol-worshipper comes forth?

I respect everyone's way to look at things and that is why I celebrate the Hues in this world!

"Maybe now we should have a hindu version of a fatwa against the Ras Lela or demolish the Konark temple while we are at it"

Wow! That some creative analysis of my comments!! Who said that? I celebrate Konark.. and Ras Leela (which has little to do with sex anyways - unless one interpreting is petty minded and not accustomed to any profound interpretation).. I also celebrate Saraswati.. and Guru Nanak Dev.. and Jesus.. and find time and again that they represent the same thing.


I dont think you get it.. so lets just stop it.. not worth it anymore...

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Sigh...for all your high studies......

Read-My religion allows me to express my gods in any way i please their 'God' doesnt and if I dont respect the difference then it doesnt say much about my maturity?

If I enjoy a certain freedom I will let others enjoy it too even if their freedom within their own 'arena' doesnt orelse mine will be curbed too.

Beyond this I don't see any other way of explaining except maybe wear and monkey cap and dance in front of you repeating those lines again and again!

I dont impose my 'morality on others- and here are a few more things I dont do-

a)I am against pre-martial sex but I don't judge others for doing it nor do I think it is wrong for them to do it.

b)I am pro-life but let others enjoy the right to prochoice

c)I find clubbing etc a waste of time but dont say that to my friends who do it and occassionally go for it

d)I am straight but have gay friends and even believe that bi-sexuals are normal

e) I am against the Iraq war but respect the soldiers and their belief that they are fighting for a just cause.

Pick any and try to dissect any that you wanna choose but as per the argument about my take on the cartoons just read those lines again and again whenever you want to fight with me on any other thread.

Deepti Lamba

To know religion, lick a witch

Great debate, there! I think I can understand Desh's empathy towards the Hindus who DO feel hurt.

Deepti, you said that your religion allows you to draw your Gods as you like. But you are forgetting here mainly that MF Hussain's religion does not allow him to draw ANY Gods!

It would make a very good statement if MF Hussain, who has obvious proclivity to Hinduism, converted to the religion now.

Boy, am I opening another can of worms!

I read and write about Dante. Do I have become Christian?

I do karate. Should I convert to Shintoism or Japanese Buddhism?

I bake bagels. Do I convert to Judaism?

MORAL: Science, arts, and culture to make progress have to have freedoms, no exclusive ownerships, and entitlements.

There will never be a Galileo - If we put shackles.

Kush, well said!

Now, why did I suggest that Hussain become a Hindu?

Because he has obvious liking to Hindu Goddesses, and I think even what would be considered as 'perverse' liking is a perfectly acceptable form of devotion in Hinduism. He probably has the route of Tantra.

I wonder how he can be a Muslim anymore since he has painted Gods, and that too of a different religion! How come there's no fatwa on him yet? He's effectively a non-Muslim right now.

But then of course he can choose to remain without religion (not atheism). Deepti who boasts about her 'Atheism' hopefully knows that there are many atheistic schools in Hinduism as well. I tend towards atheism, but I'm religious!

Deepti and Desh, maybe its just me, but I'm getting a feeling of deja-vu reading your duel discussion. Is this being carried over from some other thread? :-/

Hey, where did I say I was an Atheist?

Ambar, I am so done with Desh bringing up the same argument again and again on which ever thread I seem to go to...its like a trailing toilet paper.

I'm terribly sorry Deepti, my mistake! Very sorry indeed!

It was Ambar.

Sorry again for saying that when you've been so active here!

Dont worry I am so gone

Sooraj, what does atheism have to do with being active here? :D

Agreed, my analogy was rather weak, trying to contrast atheism with Hinduism and Buddhism, when both of these religions contain atheistic elements. Its amazing that a polytheistic (on the surface)religion can tolerate and accomodate atheism with absolutely no hassles. :-)

Because he has obvious liking to Hindu Goddesses, and I think even what would be considered as 'perverse' liking is a perfectly acceptable form of devotion in Hinduism. He probably has the route of Tantra.

Absolutely. Goddesses rock! If only I'd been introduced to goddesses when I was younger, I might not have become an atheist.

Sweet Ambar - all is not lost yet. A Goddess can make the rest of Life a wonderful experience!

"MORAL: Science, arts, and culture to make progress have to have freedoms, no exclusive ownerships, and entitlements."

If that was a CONSISTENT reaction ALL the time - GREAT! I am with you! In fact I AM for the complete freedom!

However, in any DEBATE you need to pick a consistent LINE!

YOU CANNOT.. JUST CANNOT have sympathy for sensitivities of Muslim in the cartoon controversy and pooh-pooh the sensitivities of Hindus in Hussain controversy!

Decide! And Go that route!

The problem with Deepti's response has been that while she can be all gooey about the sensitivity of the Muslims in the cartoon thing.. she somehow feels no compunction in pooh-pooh-ing the Hindus who felt hurt over in Hussain controvery! Why? Just because she thinks that she can DECIDE what Hinduism SHOULD indeed mean for the one hurt!

That to me is veritable Hypocrisy and Prejudice! No more explanation for that!

So, Kush and Deepti - Either you are for FREEDOM - in which case sensitivity for the Hurt hearts is BS.. and if you do feel sensitivity matters for those HURT.. then FREEDOM is not an unlimited choice! YOU CANNOT HAVE BOTH WAYS..

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

Desh,

I have put comments on Sepia Mutiny to this effect - in fact some of them I can clearly said "I support cartoons 100 %". These comments are 2-3 days before your question - therefore, no cover up.

If the cartoons offended any of them, Please accept my apologies and I can help you in your peaceful greviences. I will fight soft bigotry.

However, I will not help anyone in baring these cartoons - I also support European newspapers. I am ACLU-type guy. Equal opportunity offender.

No you know, where I stand.

Desh, this is my last comment on this thread, my stand is clear and thankfully I dont have to take any route that you propose for reasons I have stated above.

Don't like my stand? tough cookie.

Carry on gentlemen....I'm off to greener pastures

Calling someone a 'racist', 'fanatic', etc. with no correlation or knowledge of personal beliefs does not advance the conversation any further.

Stick to the topic at hand, and refrain from name-calling - it's in the best interests of increasing the signal-to-noise ratio.

On the MF Hussain note, his studio in Bangalore was near my place and I visited it a few times. He seemed to have a terrible repetitiveness to his paintings. They lacked depth and were two-dimensional. He can't have changed much.

Does anyone have a link to the latest painting?

I for one, can't understand why should any religioso bother about a nude representation of India - India is not a theocratic state, last I checked.

Aaman,

Here is a link to Husian's work

The link did not work

heres my 2 cents(of which one cent is off topic)

why dont we look at developing a united India which has a coherent economic policies instead of dividing ourselves on some petty issues?

Why is it petty?
Does a painting of Saraswathi Nude make an effing difference to a poverty stricken man in India who has to think how he will feed himself his next meal?
NO

Does a painting of a Nude godess make an effing difference to the number of child slave labourers in India?
NO

Does it decrease/increase the number of girls not going to school? or female foetuses being mercilessly murdered?
NO

Does it incease national wealth?
NO

what do i think about this issue?
fuck this issue. Religion has done more harm than good.

Aaman,

Please try the old fashioned way:

http://www.artswithoutborders.com/ArtsNet/artistrev.aspx?strPer=176&pageno=1&ps=0&title=Husain,%20Maqbool%20Fida

That's stunning - it might be my own creative maturity but I'm seeing stuff there that I never did earlier - I feel the pain in "Draupadi's Dice", I sense the cubist interpretation in "Human Space"

LK - good summation of the issue, the responses fits the cartoon issue too - there are bigger issues in the world

To all of you kind enough to respond to my observations:

I bring to the table the perspective of a Jew who once lived in a land of Christians. Judaism is practiced in America, but its practice is heavily influenced by the Christian majority around it.

Now please do not take this to mean that I think that Moslems are ill-treated in the Union of India. Not at all. But in any country where Islam is not the majority, a Moslem is more likely to be influenced by the majority religion - in India, Hinduism - in much the same fashion that a Jew, treated with relative tolerance in a Christian country, will be strongly influenced by the majority religion - Christianity.

In Pakistan, a Moslem country not under the rule of Sharia, a Moslem is likely to be strongly influenced by the majority religion around him - Islam. Whatever the content of the speeches of the founder of the Pakistan Movement in the last Christian century, I suspect that this understanding I've tried to impart is what was in his gut (or his heart - take your pick - I'm not fussy).

Shabbat Shalom
Sabbath Peace to all of you,
Reuven

Kush, Aaman, and LK:

I doubt anyone of you got my message. I am only talking about consistency in views. Whichever way it goes is ok.

If Hussain was right - so is Danish cartoonist. If Muslims' sensitivity needs a look-up so does Hindu sensitivity.

anyways, its folly to argue about something that you wouldn't pause to think about before you dash you next post!

cheers,
desh
drishtikone.com

Desh: I did not mean ur stand on this issue.

The issue for me is "Whether someone painting a goddess nude or a phophet caricature makes any difference in socio-economic issues?"
The answer is obviously NO.
It wont make a change in your life or mine. Thats all what i was saying.

If we are fighting on issues like this then we are fighting a void war i.e. a war where ppl fight and die for something useless.

Why die for issues like this when there are better things to fight for... like economic freedom in India.

I respect you and your stand. I was not taking a stand against your stand. I am not in the war in the first place!!!!!!!

LK:

Thanks! I do agree with your point though!

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

this is 50-50.I do agree with your point. present culture is quite prudish and sex-embarrassed. And what I mean to say is that artists can play a huge role in transforming 'present' culture to 'future' culture.
this is freodum of artist.
- agni

Hi Agni,
'Sex Embarrassed' would be an understatement. My dad is uncomfortable with us watching some medium budget 'Bollywood' movie. We also never had any discussion about anything remotely related to sex.

Considering the fact that everyone in my house is above 22, there should not be a problem with discussions about issues related to sex.

Basically our culture is against sexual freedom. As if someone having sex illegally(i.e. without getting married in Indian terms) somehow affects and destroys the 'culture'.

I never understood(or understand) how it destroys and also how it destroys our 'culture'.

What is worse, our 'culture' allows people to shit on the road. We dont even have suffecient space to shit but our culture does have a temple, mosque and church on every other street. We dont have enough money to keep ourselves well fed, and yet we donate crores(millions) to temples, mosques and churches.

I would say that our 'culture' is the reason of why we are a nation of under-performers.. that applies to sexual openness too.

Dear all,
I found all the matters related to the nudity in art, I have a question, I saw a sculpture art wherein it shows that a naked mother is feeding baby. If you all really imagine, any mother does like that but why it is shown in the sculpture. This clearly shows that this is coming from ages that people who are in this line want to express their sexual feelings by the way of art publicly and attain name and fame in the society. I heard about a photographer who married a girl after a promise of permission from her for exhibiting her nude photos in the exhibition just for attaining name,fame and award. Ofcourse, he married her but she is almost in some 4 or 5 in no. to him and made her to lookafter his work in his shop as an ordinary worker after that.. like this if we see that every artist is somehow using their talent sexually in the name of art. Art can it not be done great as what others do without nudity..remember people like raja ravi varma if he thinks of nudity in art no body can dare to stop him, but he does'nt want to spoil the valuable name of art.
After looking at all nude arts of mf hussain my friend thought of drawing his image in the belly of madhuri dixit so that his eyes will be in the breasts and his hairy mouth at the bottom between legs of her. but since we dont want to be same as hussain stopped publishing anyware.
that is the mentality of hindus.
freedom of expression why only in nudity of other women, if he want to express it let him make it and keep it in his rooms rather than publishing it, so let us all condemn this for love on art.

MY FRIEND ALWAYS SAY "HIND ME JO GAANDU HAI WOHI HINDU HAI".Varanasi blast has proved beyond doubt nexus of nefarious elements & local political parties.